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Re: [elvislegs] Hard Trad Project:
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healyje
May 1, 2008, 1:13 AM
Views: 4246
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
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elvislegs wrote: healyje wrote: elvislegs wrote: ...already is. and it's producing some fantastic lines (long and short) that just wouldn't get done otherwise. I would say you are mistaken. At the high end people may be headpointing routes, but by and large hard trad routes aren't being freed or put up by dogging up them. trotter and berthod work just about everything on lead numerous times. often taking multiple whippers onto small gear. dean potter too.
Yes, but they aren't dogging piece-to-piece on them as far as I know.
elvislegs wrote: i think it's being done at almost every level.
Many more folks are doing it which is part of the reason for my comments - that and it's still a very bad idea.
elvislegs wrote: healyje wrote: elvislegs wrote: it just seems weird to me that some climbers treat the old "trad" ethic like it's some sort of moral imperative. I'd say it's more of a health imperative and one of a very real distinction between different activities that, when blurred, tends to cause people to underestimate the objective risks posed and the necessary craft and skills one might want to develop to climb on gear in a 'safe' and effective manner. i disagree, in my experience this argument usually centers around salty old dogs feeling obsolete and angry about the shortening of the "trad" learning curve. present company excluded perhaps? i'm sure it sucks for them to see someone dogging and then redpointing routes that fifteen years ago were testpieces, only the seasoned hardman would even attempt. i'm sure it makes it worse if you feel that the kid doing the dogging has no respect or sense of history.
I could care less how folks choose to climb, but plugging gear to explicitly rest on it and repeatedly working a move off of a placement without checking it each time it is unweighted are very bad habits which are increasingly biting folks hard. And as I said, aside from the safety aspects of it, you aren't trad climbing - you're sport climbing on gear regardless of what you tell yourself.
elvislegs wrote: if some are indeed concerned about this as a safety issue. well, i'll grant you that working gear routes on lead is not as safe as top-roping them into oblivion, or climbing well below your limit on gear. but limiting risk is not the only component of climbing. if it were, we'd all just top-rope forever or not climb at all.
You miss the point entirely - sport climbing on gear is essentially an unsafe and inappropriate use of the equipment. The majority of folks might get away it a majority of the time, but the accident rate from doing it is increasing rapidly of late.
elvislegs wrote: we pay all this money for gear that is supposed to hold us if placed properly, and we're not going to fall or rest on it? no way, i know how to use it, i'm not careless but i am going to USE it. i'll work hard(ish) cracks on lead, i'll fall and hang, i'll come back later and get it clean, and i'll probably call it trad climbing if i call it anything at all.
No one is saying don't fall on your gear, but there are very real safety issues with plugging gear to rest and attempting to apply sport tactics to climbing on gear; again, it's simply a bad idea. Once again, regardless of your financial investment, cams and nuts aren't bolts - treat them like bolts at your peril, because you'll likely get bitten by it sooner or later.
(This post was edited by healyje on May 1, 2008, 1:34 AM)
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Edit Log:
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Post edited by healyje
() on May 1, 2008, 1:29 AM
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Post edited by healyje
() on May 1, 2008, 1:31 AM
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Post edited by healyje
() on May 1, 2008, 1:34 AM
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