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straightedgeteen
Aug 4, 2002, 4:03 PM
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Ive herd of many deaths with this knot have you?
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jt512
Aug 4, 2002, 6:10 PM
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No, I haven't and neither have you.
-Jay
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rickoldskool
Aug 5, 2002, 6:32 AM
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DO NOT SPREAD MISINFORMATION!
Please.
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mountainmonkey
Aug 5, 2002, 4:05 PM
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A man was killed in Zion (spaceshot) a couple of months ago using a version of the euro death knot. He used the figure 8 which was wet and not fully tightened. If you are to use this knot for rapelling use an overhand with AT LEAST 18 to 24 inch tails and tidy up the knot with all the strands very tight.
check this out
http://www.supertopos.com/climbing/thread.html?m=4480&f=50&b=0
there are some good links in the middle of the thread to some testing of the knot. Read the tests to see which knot is better and its limitations if you plan to use it ever.
Casey
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rocknpowda
Aug 5, 2002, 4:14 PM
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I use it all the time and I'm still here.
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roclymber
Aug 5, 2002, 4:19 PM
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the euro death knot is another name for the simple double overhand knot used in place of the double fishermans knot as a connecting knot. What was posted here earlier, was wrong for I confused two knots. From my sources (very credible) I have learned that It easily can slip out, and after a good day's climb, if it hasn't already untied itself, will be a bear to undo.
I Have NOT tried this knot out for myself. Why? Because of what people have told me in-person, I do not have enough confidence in it to save my life, if something were to happen. Don't get me wrong, it could work. But so far the double fish. has served my needs ever so perfectly.
I just needed to clarify a few things.
know your knots!
-matt
[ This Message was edited by: roclymber on 2002-08-09 18:27 ]
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tim
Aug 5, 2002, 4:29 PM
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All of you except for jt512 and mountainmonkey are either
1) heavily constipated,
2) trolling, or
3) sadly misinformed.
Hard numbers have been posted to corroborate the inversion strength of the EDK and to clarify why the Fig. 8 version of the knot is unsafe.
The EDK refers to a connecting double overhand knot for double-rope rappels. It have nothing to do with belaying or tie-ins.
This thread is a waste of time for both readers and writers, IMHO. Please consult the links posted by Mountainmonkey or bshaftoe for more, and more accurate, information. Thank you.
nb. Bradhill made another accurate post while I edited this to clarify. Please note that his information is also correct.
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-08-05 09:34 ]
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bradhill
Aug 5, 2002, 4:30 PM
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The "EDK" is a double overhand knot tied so both tails come out the same side of the knot. It is a strong, safe and accepted knot for rappells if well dressed and given long tails.
It is not a double figure eight. Although it may seem more secure, a double figure eight knot will turn over and walk under tension and is NOT an acceptable rappell knot.
The double fisherman's or barrell knot is another alternative rappell knot. It is safe and strong, but more prone to snagging than the overhand knot and much more difficult to untie after being weighted.
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bshaftoe
Aug 5, 2002, 4:31 PM
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roclymber,
You are uninformed, the EDK tied with a overhand with long tails and pretensioned is a safe knot.
I know my knots, do you know yours?
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
[ This Message was edited by: bshaftoe on 2002-08-05 09:32 ]
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fitz
Aug 6, 2002, 11:12 PM
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I'm curious, why do some myths appear again and again? Unless the cords are dramtically different thicknesses, a pre-tensioned, overhand knot with 1-2' tails is a very safe, extensively tested, rappel knot.
A double or triple fisherman's is even stronger and can use a little less rope, but it does not travel over edges as well and seems to have a supernatural ability to sniff out cracks to get stuck in.
Several safe variations of the fisherman's (ex. square knot or figure 8 in the middle) exist, but I personally think they are a waste of time. Their primary advantage is that they are easier to untie after loading. Personally, I've never had a knot I couldn't untie, but if I ever encounter one, I've got a pocket knife. On the other hand, I've had several stuck lines over the years and each has been a nerve racking, potentially dangerous, situation.
The upright 8 (a figure 8 tied with both tails pointing out the same end of the rope) is NOT a safe rappel knot. I've been told it was recommended in one of the climbing magazines (CLIMBING?) sometime in the last couple of years. Whoever made the recommendation should check the facts, then spend a month juggling cattle prods while standing naked in a bucket of ice water as pennance...
-jjf
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drewcoleman
Aug 7, 2002, 2:04 AM
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I've never seen it, what is it?
Drew
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fishypete
Aug 7, 2002, 1:48 PM
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Right on Fitz!! How is it that some myths just keep coming and coming and will never die???
The EDK is a safe and well accepted (at least by those who have done their research) knot for joining two ropes for a rappel. Only three things to remember: tension it well, dress it well, and leave long tails (i.e. the same rules as any knot).
For an overwhelming amount of flames and discussion on this topic, do a search on rec.climbing.
To get started, click here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=bf08f318dbe3bd11&ic=1
(this link begins with the figures already linked above by B_Shaftoe)
Can one ever hope to see the end of this thread that will never die????
Cheers
Fishy.
[ This Message was edited by: fishypete on 2002-08-07 07:03 ]
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cedk
Aug 7, 2002, 2:52 PM
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It's distrusted because some guy had to be a joker and name it the death knot.
If they'd named it the European Safe Knot it would be a lot more popular.
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overlord
Aug 7, 2002, 3:10 PM
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i am actually a scout and can tell that the "dead-knot" is probably safer than figure-8. its other name is BOWLINE. it is easyer to untie and i have NEVER heard that it slipped. the knot for joining two ropes look the same, but the ends of ropes come out differently. hope i was helpful.
CLIMB ON
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fishypete
Aug 8, 2002, 8:11 AM
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Obviously the scouts dont know their knots too well...
We Are Not Talking About Bowlines!!!
Please try checking out what the EDK is exactly before posting misleading information.
Fishy.
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fishypete
Aug 8, 2002, 8:13 AM
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Obviously the scouts dont know their knots too well...
We Are Not Talking About Bowlines!!!
Please try checking out what the EDK is exactly before posting misleading information.
Fishy.
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rrrADAM
Aug 8, 2002, 8:54 AM
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The EDK IS THE BEST KNOT to join two ropes for a double rappel. Just be sure to have 12" tails. PERIOD !!! It is low profile, unties easily, and will not snag on a ledge, as it will always roll to the position of least resistance.
There have been NO accidents with this knot. The accident you are reffering to was not the EDK, it was a figure 8 with both ends facing the same direction.
I, and many others, including guides, use this knot exclusively.
rrrADAM
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clymber
Aug 8, 2002, 12:10 PM
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I will never use the Euro Death Knot
Death and Knot NEVER need to be that close together...Just my view
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theclimer
Aug 8, 2002, 12:47 PM
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Then you are indeed missing the Better Way of tying your rap ropes together. It is only called the Euro DEATH KNOT because it looks so sketchy. It has been pull tested to at least the same strength as other knots commonly used to tie rappel ropes together. It is endorsed by the AMGA. It is easier to both tie and untie than a double fisherman's knot, and rolls over edges in exactly the same fashion that the double fisherman's doesn't.
Jesus H. Christ, this topic has been beat to death both here and elsewhere (in particular on rec.climbing). I wish people would base their opinions on fact rather than hearsay.
- Jeff
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roclymber
Aug 8, 2002, 6:28 PM
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The EDK has many names, the actual "Euro Death Knot" being only a nick. Anyone ever figure out why it is called this? that might (keyword) be the reason behind it.
I was thinking about my previous post, and confused a couple of things. ok, The EDK is not a belay knot, but I would use the double fisherman over the EDK anyday anywhere,under any circumstance
-matt
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theclimer
Aug 8, 2002, 7:04 PM
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Quote:The EDK has many names, the actual "Euro Death Knot" being only a nick. Anyone ever figure out why it is called this? that might (keyword) be the reason behind it.
I was thinking about my previous post, and confused a couple of things. ok, The EDK is not a belay knot, but I would use the double fisherman over the EDK anyday anywhere,under any circumstance
-matt
And you're welcome to do that if you wish. The double fisherman's is a bomber knot and one that I would trust under almost any circumstance, from a strictly structural point of view. But to reiterate, the double fisherman's can and does get hung up when pulling the rope from the anchor points above. Does this make a big diffeence when you're already on the ground? No. But when you're three pitches up and a storm is blowing in, it surely would suck to have your rope get stuck in a crack or on a bush or something just because your knot is too bulky to roll its way out of a snag.
Personally, I use both knots, depending on the circumstance. It's my belief that the knot got its nickname from an uninformed onlooker who was used to doing things the double fisherman's way. Probably some old school dude who was climbing with some Euros, and it spooked him enough to name it that.
The facts stand for themselves, however, so to dismiss the use of a viable knot just because you're scared of its nickname is pretty shortsighted in my mind. If you'd rather, call it by its real name, the double overhand.
Cheers,
Jeff
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mountainmonkey
Aug 8, 2002, 8:15 PM
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You can also try tying one or both of the tails with an single overhand backup. Then, if the knot were to roll, it would be blocked by the overhand stopper knot. This does make the knot slightly more bulky, but makes it safer and even looks more secure. I believe the ASCA uses this knot, but i have to double check that. Look at Petzl's website to see what they reccomend for joining two ropes for a rappel. Tests prove that with sufficient tails and a well dressed knot it is safe enough for rapelling (you will break the rope before the knot fails). However, I think every knot has its uses: use a double overhand (with or without a backup knot) if the rappel goes over an edge, otherwise use a double fishermans. I prefer to use a retied figure 8 with double fisherman backups - now that is a bomber knot that isn't hard to untie.
casey bernal
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fitz
Aug 8, 2002, 9:11 PM
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If you mean what I think you mean by a "double" overhand knot, I don't agree. The knot I'm thinking of consumes a lot more rope when it rolls than a basic overhand.
The issue with 1' tails on an overhand, is that there is plenty of room for the knot to roll at least three times. Each time the knot rolls, it takes more force for the next roll to occur. By three, the force is near the breaking strength of the rope.
An upright 8 _looks_ safer, but when it inverts, it consumes a lot of rope and the required force for subsequent inversions does not increase nearly as dramatically. This knot can, and has, rolled off the ends with grim consequences.
Like I said before, variations on the grapevine, like a square knot or figure 8 in the middle (which it sounds like you use) are very safe. But, a lot of epics occur because of stuck lines, so getting the lines to the next station should always be a consideration.
-jjf
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pbjosh
Aug 8, 2002, 10:30 PM
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Properly tied, the EDK is arguably the best rappel knot. To tie it properly, it's a single overhand knot with both tails exiting the same side of the knot. The tails must be at least 12" long, preferably closer to 24". I like to tie a second overhand knot in the tails 8-10" from the first as a backup but this is not necessary.
The reason it's the best knot? It is the lowest profile, easiest to tie and untie (and speed is frequently the greatest asset in an emergency - keep reading) and least likely to snag in a crack, flake, bush, tree, etc.
In April my girlfriend had a horrendous lead fall (poor rock, traversing pitch, choss, bad luck all come together) half way up a remote wall in Mexico (El Milenio, IV/V 5.11b on El Gran Trono Blanco in Baja). Severely bleeding with major head trauma, disoriented and incoherant and her limbs and joints rapidly stiffening, and facing 8 double rope rappels through rope eating terrain and a several mile uphill bushwack/scramble just to get back to a car with which we could drive several hours back to a US hospital, it was no time to f*ck around, no time for stuck ropes, and no time for misinformation. I used the EDK to rappel, hanging us both from a single rap device (haul bag style) as it was the fastest way down and most importantly the LEAST LIKELY TO SNAG. That was no time or situation to have a stuck rope epic. Luckily we made it out ok and she has since recovered phenomenally well and is back out cranking hard.
So, to the uninformed/misinformed fools (and I don't use the term lightly) that are posting misinformation, I hope that you never contribute to someone else's misfortune. It's more important to be right than it is to be talkative when it comes to climbing safety. MOST IMPORTANTLY, no one and I mean no one should ever base all their beliefs on just reading but should try things out (in a safe situation), read as much as possible, think things through, ask guides and more experienced climbers and inform themselves. I had in the past tested the EDK by bouncing on it for 10 minutes while hanging from my rafters and was satisfied and had subsequently used it to rappel hundreds of times.
Anyone who isn't satisfied with it's safety should tie one and bounce on it and muck with it to their heart's content while 3' off the ground, as they should test every other aspect of climbing safety, knots, rigging, anchors, etc.
..josh
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pbjosh
Aug 8, 2002, 11:03 PM
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One other note - I'm not calling any individual a fool or aiming this at any one person. I just want people to think before they post and not post the crap and drivel that half this thread is full of. It's sad when the knowledgable people (and there are many on this site) have to compete and argue with the morons who are talking just to be heard about issues that can affect the safety of the people reading the thread.
..josh
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slcliffdiver
Aug 9, 2002, 12:31 PM
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About the name. My recollection of the evolution of the name is after a couple? of deaths from the double figure 8 people started to refer to that as the Euro Death Knott. Then there was some confusion about weather people were talking about the double figure 8 or double overhand; along with the fact that the double overhand can invert people started talking about the figure 8 and overhand version of the EDK. For a while and I still think it's true for some people are talking just about the 8 version when they say EDK. But since the figure 8 version has come under dissuse because of the consensus that it's more dangerous than the overhand version. Fewer people talk about the 8 version for rappeling so for most of the population the double overhand is stuck with the name. Ain't language fun. I gleaned this from the original and subsequent threads on wreck.climbing and I'm assuming that the discussion was paralleling that of the climbing community as a whole (big assumption). Anyway that's my impression. You can start with a google search on EDK or Euro Death Knot on rec.climbing and start reading in chronological order to see what you think.
BTW I think the most dangerous part of using a well tied double overhand for rappeling is discussing it!
If I'm not concerned with moving quickly or the rope jamming I've mostly used the 8 rethread backed up because it does freek me a little that the double overhand can invert at all even though it does cinch up. When I use the double overhand I taking the long tails and put another double overhand in them to keep my dumb a** from hooking in to one or both of the long tails and rapping off of them. Tried to do this twice my first year of trad with fig 8 retrace and long tails (my friend didn't use a stopper knot). After I setup and check the rapp setup then I undo the backup knot if I'm worried about the knot jamming. I'll have my partner take it out when they head down if I'm sure they'll remember.
I think it's one knot for rappelling that everyone should have in their arsenal even if they never use it. When it's getting dark and I'm getting, colder, more tired, and stupider it's the one knot I know I can tie as long as I can hold the rope ends, move my arms and grip with my teeth. And I can still put a backup in easily. By the time it's just dark enough to loose some depth perception and I'm cold enough that it's a little hard to feel or follow the path of the rope the retrace 8 is a bitch for me physically and partially mentally sometimes. Untying a double fishermans when I'm cold sucks.
In short (yeah I know finally):
Easy for my brain, easy for my hands, easy to untie.
The double overhand when I'm cold and getting colder and I don't want to die.
Peace
David
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norushnomore
May 8, 2003, 8:05 AM
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Somewhat related to this subject:
How about asymmetrical double fisherman's knot for joining two ropes?
Imaging a regular double fisherman's knot except that short ends are on one side and long end are on the other.
I did try it with my body weight, it looked good but I have no idea beyond that.
I have not seen anybody discussing this option.
G
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alpnclmbr1
May 8, 2003, 8:38 AM
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Because it is not an option!
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jt512
May 8, 2003, 4:31 PM
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In reply to: Somewhat related to this subject: How about asymmetrical double fisherman's knot for joining two ropes?
How about using a knot, such as the EDK, which has proved itself both in the field and in laboratory tests?
-Jay
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calpolyclimber
May 8, 2003, 5:04 PM
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The EDK is the safest knot for double rope rappels...
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flamer
May 8, 2003, 6:17 PM
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Dude the TRUE EDK is a Bowline!! The double overhand is a safe and effective way to join 2 ropes!!
Now people that tie in using a bowline....that's just asking for trouble....Sport'o!
josh
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pico23
May 8, 2003, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: Ive herd of many deaths with this knot have you?
:roll: Am I bill murray in ground hogs day???? Does this thread ever end. Yes I am bill murray and I've been repeatedly killing myself using a EDK. Sometime it even fails when I tie it properly but sometimes I help it out and tie it like crap with no tails. It's more fun then driving into a quarry or electricuting myself with the toaster. Tomorrow I am going to attach 2 ropes witha EDK (no tails) and bridge jump.
:P
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pico23
May 8, 2003, 7:45 PM
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In reply to: the euro death knot is another name for the simple double overhand knot used in place of the double fishermans knot as a connecting knot. What was posted here earlier, was wrong for I confused two knots. From my sources (very credible) I have learned that It easily can slip out, and after a good day's climb, if it hasn't already untied itself, will be a bear to undo. I Have NOT tried this knot out for myself. Why? Because of what people have told me in-person, I do not have enough confidence in it to save my life, if something were to happen. Don't get me wrong, it could work. But so far the double fish. has served my needs ever so perfectly. I just needed to clarify a few things. know your knots! -matt [ This Message was edited by: roclymber on 2002-08-09 18:27 ]
So your friends write the UIAA guidelines, the NAMGA guidelines and other major federations guidelines that for the most part we generally adhere to for safety. God this is the lamest thread. For the record the EDK, aka. the overhand knot is THE ONLY UIAA approved method of joining 2 rappel ropes. It is also the prefered method of the NAMGA and other major US and world climbing federations. It is safe even with different diameter ropes (I've personally used it with a 9.6 and 10.5). Tie it tight, make sure it is neat and with good tail (anywhere from 12-18 inches is suffient). It should be neatly dressed and hard as a rock. Even with precautions it is easier to tie quickly and properly then any other double rope rappel knot. It MIGHT ROLL/invert on itself under high load. This is pretty normal and isn't a safety issue with sufficient tails. As far as it untying on it's own? I have never seen anything to support that. Sure ANY POORLY TIED NOT CAN AND WILL FAIL, tie it correctly and don't worry. As far as untying it? I'd rather untie a overhand then a double fishermans or a rewoven figure 8 after a rappel or series of rappels. As far as failure strenght I've seen credible data showing the knot consistently failing above 2000lbs when properly tied. Thats plenty even for simul rapping which I watched two people do a few weeks ago on a overhand and the knot didn't even budge or slip at all. most other well used knots don't fail much above the overhands strength.
On the flip side DO NOT EVER USE THE OVERHAND 8 to JOIN TWO ROPES. I am pretty sure the climber in Zion used this knot. It inverts at very low loads and even with sufficient tail it sometimes can invert a second time and come untied. This is rare but I believe most deaths on rappels where the knot has failed (properly tied or not) have happened using this knot which is sometimes refered to WRONGLY as the EDK.
Please at least attempt to get accurate information before posting on a well worn out subject.
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pico23
May 8, 2003, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: The upright 8 (a figure 8 tied with both tails pointing out the same end of the rope) is NOT a safe rappel knot. I've been told it was recommended in one of the climbing magazines (CLIMBING?) sometime in the last couple of years. Whoever made the recommendation should check the facts, then spend a month juggling cattle prods while standing naked in a bucket of ice water as pennance... -jjf
Oddly enough I noticed in Don Mellors "A trailside Guide to Rock Climbing" which was overall a great begginer book that I scanned through at the bookstore that he list the upright/overhand figure 8 as the recommended rappel knot for avoiding snags and cracks. Most of the other parts of the book had little insider tips he was fond of but this was the only one that seemed like poor advice. I was actually shocked to see it in the book. Please let say I might have mis read. He might have been talking about the rewoven figure 8 with tails coming out opposite ends. I need to recheck the book next time I am at the store or just send him an email to be sure. But I did find this to be odd. Likewise, it is odd climbing used that knot as a tip. The #'s show that the overhand/upright 8 is very unsafe and should not be used.
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kevlar
May 8, 2003, 8:43 PM
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consider buying your rope longer...say 1000 or 2000 feet long
knots are confusing for me...
but being a knot head...is other story
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climbingcanuck
May 8, 2003, 9:34 PM
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theres an actual knot called the Euro death knot??? theres your first clue...
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norushnomore
May 9, 2003, 2:47 AM
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I am not suggesting that anybody should start using it.
I was just curious as why this option was never tried or discussed.
This knot might have the benefits of both: EDK and DF at the same time
G
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theclimer
May 9, 2003, 3:10 AM
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In reply to: theres an actual knot called the Euro death knot??? theres your first clue...
The EDK is SAFE. It has an unfortunate name. That is all. Its absolute benefits far outweigh its supposed shortcomings.
I am not going to rehash the facts here. Either research them yourself and use the knot, or relegate yourself to a continual series of epics when your "bomber" triple-rewoven figure eight with quadruple fisherman's backups get stuck.
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pico23
May 9, 2003, 3:38 AM
Post #39 of 41
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Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
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In reply to: In reply to: theres an actual knot called the Euro death knot??? theres your first clue... I am not going to rehash the facts here. Either research them yourself and use the knot, or relegate yourself to a continual series of epics when your "bomber" triple-rewoven figure eight with quadruple fisherman's backups get stuck.
Holy $hit I am dying. Man, that is getting printed and ironed on one of my climbing t-shirts. Geez, I've heard some good ones in the last few days on some of the usually touchy topics but this was a classic in its own right.
I totally agree with you and thats why it's going on a t-shirt.
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k9rocko
May 9, 2003, 4:02 AM
Post #40 of 41
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Registered: May 12, 2002
Posts: 195
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I propose the EDK infamy be replaced with the BSA-DK. Tie it however your scoutmaster told you. Forget all the GOOD advice you might get from people who actually climb !!!
In the proud tradition of the Boy Scouts of America, it is not designed by climbers. The knot is reliable, because it looked good when it was sewn on a merit badge.
However, the following disclaimer applies to the use of said knot:
1. It should only be used if you BELIEVE IN GOD (your gonna meet him)
2. Tying a REALIABLE knot is gay. (that knot looks like the purple tele-tubby)
3. There is a special merit badge for using this knot (I call it the Darwin Award)
OK, I bashed the scouts in jest.... please don't think I hate them. I just get a kick from their obviously-infinite and unquestioned knowledge in outdoor skills / ethics.
If it wasn't for scouts on the trail above me... I wouldn't need to wear this helmet while I eat my lunch!!!
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theclimer
May 9, 2003, 4:34 AM
Post #41 of 41
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Registered: Apr 10, 2002
Posts: 81
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In reply to: Holy $hit I am dying. Man, that is getting printed and ironed on one of my climbing t-shirts. Geez, I've heard some good ones in the last few days on some of the usually touchy topics but this was a classic in its own right. I totally agree with you and thats why it's going on a t-shirt.
Brought to you by ... the Climer! Making people ask "WTF?" for years upon years.
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