WTF!!!!...climbing related in community!!!! BLASPHEME!

hummm....look at alot of companies, dog eat dog...

Chouinard hiccuped and went bye-bye

black diamond owns franklin, beal, scrapa, and someone else
(EDIT, BIBLER TENTS)

msr, cascade, platapus, thermarest and afew other guys merged way back

adidas owns asolo who owns arc'teryx (arc'teryx, a company that STARTED by making harnesses and slings now makes GREAT yet over priced out door clothing)

madrock undercuts the industry with china production effecting lots of companys

la sportiva merged with someone and nearly killed lasportiva(and whom?????the evil The North Face)..sportiva shares were resold back to the original owner and now we have a good company again...

Wildcountry owns/merged with DMM

rock empire makes uber cheap gear due to the fact that its cheap to make it in chek republic

trango makes their gear in korea but claims all workers in that factory are climbers

arc'teryx has some of their gear made in vietnam (claims is a good factory)

MEC owns serratus

petzl owns charlet mozer who owns grivel

Satan bought The North Face whom bought A5

metolius owns lucky (based in Spain) who makes all their biners and other forged stuff

then there's histories with patents (petzl and trango split up the Spiter Gear patents and the big bro patent trango got when Mountain Hardware was boughtout by old serria design employees to creat Mountain Hardwear )

yuppie based Prana bought by liz claif---borne



companies buy other companies to make money....sometimes it helps though.....arc'teryx could barely pay its employees and a majority of its work is still done in vancouver, BC)

and merging does help to simplify the industry at times...

but to the OP, there's lots of dirt out there...

NOTE;....sorry, i not sure the deal with all the companies mention whether it was a boughtout or merged or what.....

Not only are they not trying to rip the consumer off, they also are attempting to give back to this earth that we all reside in (a good example of this is Patagonia). Along with all this most of these companies are locally owned and operated and do not use cheap labor to make there products.

hummm....look at alot of companies, dog eat dog...

That was pretty good, thanks. I have no way of knowing how accurate all this is, but you sure do type a good game! Thanks.

If a new company was to start production in the states, and make quality gear but it cost a little more - would people be willing to pay a premium for the stuff ?? In this the golden age of malmart, and with most climbers I know not exactly rolling in cash, could such an enterprise survive, nay, thrive in the current socio-economic conditions ?

What's the deal with Omega Pacific previously producing their gear with prison workers? It sounded like a pretty good deal to me. New legislation outlawed it or something?

Google for 'omega pacific prison':
http://www.spokanejournal.com/index.php?id=article&sub=2004&keyword=
And the Washington Supreme Court said 'don't do that'.

I thought I had read elsewhere that they had intended to stop basically because they were tired of people slagging them about it. I thought they had a statement on their web site for a while, but a google search 'prison site:omegapac.com' doesn't bring up any results...

Mike

WTF!!!!...climbing related in community!!!! BLASPHEME!

hummm....look at alot of companies, dog eat dog...

Chouinard hiccuped and went bye-bye

black diamond owns franklin, beal, scarpa, and someone else
(EDIT, BIBLER TENTS)
Beal is distibuted by BD. not owned...I THINK the same may go for Scarpa. Also, Franklin name owned by Trango now
msr, cascade, platapus, thermarest and a few other guys merged way back
all of which are owned by REI
adidas owns asolo who owns arc'teryx (arc'teryx, a company that STARTED by making harnesses and slings now makes GREAT yet over priced out door clothing)
Salomon division (which includes Salomon, Mavic, Bonfire, Arc’Teryx, and Cliché )of Adidas-Salomon was sold to Amer Sports (known mainly for Wilson Athletic. Asolo has nothing to do with these companies
BTW Asolo is owned by Benetton. you know. United Colours of Benetton?
Also includes Nordica, Prince, Rollerblade, Kästle and Killer Loop
madrock undercuts the industry with china production effecting lots of companys

la sportiva merged with someone and nearly killed lasportiva(and whom?????the evil The North Face)..sportiva shares were resold back to the original owner and now we have a good company again...

Wildcountry owns/merged with DMM
Don't forget Red Chili
rock empire makes uber cheap gear due to the fact that its cheap to make it in chek republic

trango makes their gear in korea but claims all workers in that factory are climbers

arc'teryx has some of their gear made in vietnam (claims is a good factory)

MEC owns serratus

petzl owns charlet mozer who owns grivel

Satan bought The North Face whom bought A5

metolius owns lucky (based in Spain) who makes all their biners and other forged stuff
Lucky makes gear for Metolius but isn't owned by them.
then there's histories with patents (petzl and trango split up the Splitter

But I am starting to see some of this slipping. For example prAna getting bought out by Liz Claiborne and also Mad rock making their shoes in China.
I’d like to know if anyone out there has any info on the morals and/or ethics behind mad rocks manufacturing and business, and if it is even true that they are having there shoes manufactured in China.

p.s. I own a pair of mad rock shoes and they have treated me well so far

Wow, the wrong answers keep pouring in. Curt is 95% wrong. AKC is largely incorrect on the corrections. Keep it up, this is entertaining! :lol:

Kudos to Madrock for waking up the climbing shoe industry by manufacturing in China and bringing high performance shoes to our world at reasonable prices. The rest of the sporting world discovered that 15 years ago.

It is pretty much cost prohibitive to manufacture most of these products in the US. For example, it might take 1 hour total to make a 60 liter backpack. If one is paying a US machine operator $25 an hour, that would add something in the vicinity of $45 to the manufacturer's costs. That $200 backpack would cost $300. IMHO, the utility curve for a new backpack drops precipitiously at that kind of cost.

graham

Thanks to you and Malcolm for all the information. Just for my own enlightment, how do these numbers add up? I think the markup is usually twice, so that's how you get from $45 to $100. $25/hour adds $45 to the cost of a backpack - in the sewing industry is salary a little under half the total burden (ie, salary, factory space, benefits, etc)?

nice explanation Mal. it seems like those who don't understand globalization just dont understand economics.

...Chouinard, Inc was sold to the employees that worked there, meaning the employees, all climbers and surfers and blacksmiths that shared a passion for the quality climbing equipment bought the company. They moved to Salt Lake and changed the name to Black Diamond ltd. and Yvon proclaims that they still hold the same quality and philosophy as they did over 30 years ago...

Thomas Friedman's, The Flat World

[

There is a fine line between the two. Essentially it comes down to (Greed) also known as the bottom line, MONEY. When it comes to money there is no such thing as morals, just get the money. Some companies couldn't handle TQM (Total Quality Management) Techniques so favored by Demming, and they have gone back to reckless marketing ideals and shine the customer service part or the quality. They will tell you anything you want to hear to get your dollar. It's just like a guy who wants in a girls pants, he'll tell her anything to get some 'Tang, and if she likes the pitch then ring up another sale. This is one side of the line.

Some serious overhead and costs go into forming and operating a business. As a result of that, management is constantly searching for new ways to cut costs and market a product that is affordable to manufacture and still compete with the competition! And make a killing!! When it comes down to it the lion is going to get his share. Your job in all of this is being a good consumer. When you repeatedly buy junk then it forces the market to make junk so it can keep up with the proverbial "Jonses". I hear things like, "Its the same thing", or "Its cheaper". Companies once known for great quality, and who are dealing with a market flooded with cheap knock offs, must cut corners somehow to survive! Don't Buy junk!!! when people stop buying the junk goods, then these little grunt manufacturers must close up shop and go home, usually with a bunch of arrows in thier ass.....
Peace,
Chuck

You guys talk a good game. I don't think either one has a crystal ball and I don't think off shoring all our labor is good for this country. In fact, I believe strongly the end result is to move wealth out of the US and redistribute it to the 3rd world.

[quote="sixleggedinsect"]
i cant claim to be an expert in any sort of relevant field, ethics, economics, etc, but ive always wondered:

just what is so bad about 'moving wealth out of the US and redistributing it to the 3rd world' anyway?

i suppose i can understand that you want to protect your own, but i wont take it as far as you seem to suggest.

the end, dingus, it was chance that you were born to an american family. what, in this cosmic crap game makes the US disproportionately entitled to the wealth?

Anyway, who can blame us Americans for wanting to hold onto what we got? We started with noting and built our dominance out of time, sweat, and blood, so I think we earned it. I agree with grovehunter- this is my country/team, and we come first.

nations have been taking over nations ever since the beginning of man. So when you mention disproportionate and entitled to I become upset!

...there are a lot of smart folks who will say we didn't, and that even if we had earned it, we didn't deserve it...

and if it is even true that they are having there shoes manufactured in China.

p.s. I own a pair of mad rock shoes and they have treated me well so far

happybob,
I like the way you're thinking but I'm uncomfortable with the use of the phrase "we earned it". In many ways that implies that "it" is permanent, or once we have it, we'll have it forever.

Here's an interesting article that discusses how we've increased our work week by 20 hours in the last thirty years, but our productivity (GDP/working population) has gone down. I want it to work the other way. I want to work less and produce more.

Americans deserve the wealth because we are the hardest working nation in the world. We put more work hours in every year than any other country.

As an argentine living in the states with American parents, I’m not entirely disconnected from the "motherland" but can't help but notice the flaming ignorance coming from many of the people in this discussion.
There is one thing that most are forgetting.
The people in Afghanistan, China, Colombia, Canada, Mexico... (the rest of the world) all are human beings as well, all have needs, all have wants, but there is one exception to many of the humans in these countries, they don't always get their wants, and half of the time don't get there needs
(I can only speak to South American countries on this since I grew up in Argentina and have lived in Bolivia and spent a fair amount of time in Colombia)
When I was in Colombia I spent some time with a coffee farmer and he had told me that many of the coffee farmers in the aria could not continue making a living off of farming coffee (they couldn't pay the big man that actually owned the land that they farmed on) because the farmer had to sell the coffee to the land owner and then he would sell the coffee to the Colombian market and then the big American company would buy it in the end and sell it to you. Do you know how much the Colombian farmer would make off of his coffee that he worked day in and day out to farm 7 cents per pound (how much do you pay for it at you local store?)
So many of these farmers switched to farming coca and then could actually make enough to feed their families.
You can call them lazy all you want but there are the rest of the Americans beside yourself that make up this country. The ones that watch more the 6 hours of TV a day, and the obese ones as well, they usually end up in the lazy category.
That’s just my 2 cents

This anti - American Jealousy is the reason we don't want anymore people here, and if you do come here EMBRACE AMERICA, MAKE IT YOUR COUNTRY, STRIVE TO MAKE IT BETTER AND FORGET ABOUT YOUR OLD COUNTRY!

Is globalization really that bad? I mean, the stuff is made in China, but the profits are going to a US company most of the time. I dont know, but I think its not a bad idea to use up China, India's, and the middle easts resources (oil anybody?) when we can get them at a fraction of what they are worth?

I work 7 days a week most of the year and go to school and help homeless people and teach kids in my spare time what I know about astronomy and science. ... So before you try to rationalize your twisted thinking, why don't you spend ten hours with me next Christmas, passing out toys to dying under priveledged children right here in Los Angeles? Then when we're done with that we'll go to skid row, and give clothes to homeless people.

Here's another tip, Mister lets' have everything all fair bleeding heart fool; nations have been taking over nations ever since the beginning of man. So when you mention disproportionate and entitled to I become upset!

Several years back, I heard a rumor that Patagonia used cheap "third world" labor to make its clothes. Can anyone shed some light on this?

These are the kind of statements that are disturbing. Its like saying, "I don't know much about Iraq or where Iran is, but I am just glad I don't live there." You don't have to agree with other people's opinions, but please, lets reason just a little better.

A couple of thoughts on this...

1) The US Dow Jones industrial average fell .7% in 2005, so it's hard to claim that outsourcing our manufacturing base to third-world countries is the real answer to our country's current economic situation. By comparison, the Nikkei index (Japan) rose 40% last year and the Dax (Germany) was up 27%.

2) Even though profits do increase to US companies as the result of outsourcing and lowering production costs--that is only one side of the equation. The resulting loss of relatively high paying manufacturing jobs here in the US lowers the standard of living for average Americans. This in turn, diminishes the ability of average Americam workers to purchase the goods and services that drive our economy. It's a downward spiral.

Curt

I think I have something crawling on me......oh man its that sixleggedinsect again..... Not only did you attack me, but it was you who initiated the emotional content into this thread, as the rest of us were discussing the nature of the problem and how we may over come it.

If you have Ideas to help this economy then maybe we can all learn something in this thread! On the other hand if you want to go the other direction, then you might do just as well to crawl away into a hole or somewhere better suited for insects.

metolius owns lucky (based in Spain) who makes all their biners and other forged stuf

just on a side note coca cola companies in Colombia won't allow the workers to have unions, and when anyone organizes or talks about organizing one they kill them, yes coca cola has them killed
and don't even get me started on u.s. military action in other countries

I was just rereading this post, and have a question: why is this Americas fault? I know that Coca Cola is not America, just an international company that started in America. Maybe you should look to your own legal system for not punishing the ones involved in these killings. After all, if its not against the law to for Coke to kill people, it should be. And if your government wont do anything about it, push them from power. If it comes to revolution, I'm sure after a few thousand people die the UN will ask the USA (it always seems to be us...) to send you some troops so your not all killed, and then you can establish your own, just government.
Maybe that is all a little far fetched, but its not our fault Coke kills people. We police foreign company's here in the USA so i think its your responsibility to do it in your country.

Wow this is your most diluted post yet.

Uh, coke is most certainly US. So is walmart and Kodak. They may have international arms but the head is US controlled.

This is almost like Walmart (a company that exerts more control over it's outlying resources than probably any other) saying we don't know what goes on in our stores, or the factories our goods are produced in. Ignorance isn't a defense regardless.

The US only sends peace keeping forces where it is beneficial to US interest. There have been exceptions to this rule but generally it's the case.

And last I checked the US was badly behind on it's UN contributions.

Don't believe your country is perfect. The foundations it was formed on are models for the world but the evolution of the nation is not the intention of the founders. I'll by that the constitution couldn't forsee the future but some things were certainly more important than others. A good example is the fact that the founders never intended to have a single all powerful leader. If you haven't noticed the president has gradually become ever more important. And today this president is aiming to consolidate all he can under the premise of a neverending war...Last I checked only congress has the power to declare war or military action lasting beyond 100 days.

Get your head out of your ass, be proud, but be realistic.

If Target, a French based company, had someone killed here it would not go unpunished..

I think you missed the point: this is an example of a situation that is made to be Americas fault that we have no control over. So what if Coke is headed in the US? If Coke killed someone here in the US it damn sure would be punished to the extent of the law. If Target, a French based company, had someone killed here it would not go unpunished.

What was the US's interest in the Tsunami relief? I know our troops were there. I know our tax dollars are going there. And this unending war which I assume you mean Iraq, was authorized by congress. 296-133 in the house and 77-23 in the Senate. All this happened Oct 10, 2002. I'm pretty sure everyone in the States and probably most of the civilized world knew that one, except you.

My country is not perfect but its pretty damn good.

Get your head out of your ass, bash on America if you like, but check your facts.

Target was founded in Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1902, and is still based there

Actually, no, I mean the never ending war on terror! And congress is handcuffed at this point on Iraq but it made it clear that the US is pulling out sometime soon. Congress DID NOT DECLARE WAR ON IRAQ OR TERRORIST. Therefore the president HAS NO AUTHORITY UNDER THE CONSTITUTION TO EXPAND HIS POWERS which he would in a time of war. BTW, Congress was also duped by a misleading president into the war. A war the president wanted since the first day of his presidency.

My favorite all time quoute is during the 2000 pres election debates with
Gore. President Bush stated, as president this nation will not undertake nation building. Funny we've already undertaken rebuilding of at least two nations.

As far as the Tsunami, some things are just too big to pass up. Even the US government needs good press sometimes. Remember imediately after the tsunami US gov got bashed for not doing enough. And I do think I clearly stated that the US occasionally does something not in it's best interest. Ironically, I have no problem with our country looking out for itself, I have a problem with idiots in this country believing our government is so benevolent that it hurts the US. What hurt the US in both credibility and financially for probably another generation is the pre emptive war on a nation that had nothing for us to preempt.

You are sadly confused. And I feel bad for you. I feel bad for myself too because people like you are the reason Americans are increasingly hated throughout the world.

Your right. I apologize for that bit of miss information. But the main point still stands, just replace Target with Toyota and French with Japanese. And you are right, the American empire will undoubtedly fall. I think I stated that before. But when it falls is something that can be influenced.

I'm glad that you read the mind of George W. Before he was elected. You should have told everyone that he wanted a war. Don't get me wrong, hes a jackass, but its not like the Democratic party had a much better offering. And last I checked, we are still in the war in Iraq, so why is the pres not entitled to the power given to him in a time of war?

The balance of power you seem of speak of is temporary at best. By power I think you must mean things like the Patriot Act and the likes. (if thats not it, start specifying things, its hard to argue when you are making very general statements...) Unfortunately, those were also approved by congress, though they are about to get kicked out the door by congress. (I hope so anyway.) Some of it was also deemed unconstitutional by the courts. The balance cannot always, if ever, be perfect, but the mechanism to equalize itself is in place and that is (in my opinion and the opinion of most people I know, including teachers) what the founding fathers most likely envisioned.

Its cool if you feel bad for me and yourself, but I don't understand why. If others hate me because of my values, that sucks. Its part of human nature I guess. We both have what seems to be inverse views on our countries policies. I'm sure we can both agree on one thing: we cannot change each others opinions. Aryemanhattanforme was right in that there is lots of bad information in this thread, from myself included. (see above.) I consider myself lucky to have participated in this argument because I learned something.

good effort, tattooed_climber, you got most of it right. Of the big clothing companies, Patagonia and Outdoor Research are about the only independents left.

And to illustrate the point, check out http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/...259163_retail11.html, which describes the shift to overseas production, and even includes a quote from Nordstrom himself rationalizing it.

"We're a very technical gear company, so we have to have the very latest of technologies and fabrics," Nordstrom said. "The textile industry in the U.S. is a remnant of what it used to be."