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class5kaker
Feb 27, 2006, 5:19 PM
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Hi,
Ive been climbing mainly in the gym for 5 years now, and have some outdoor experience in top roping. To further my knowledge i want to take a Top Rope Site Manager course at Fox Guide school in North Carolina. Ive asked around with guides at my gym, but they aren't to sure with one of the pre-requisites at the guide school.
http://www.foxmountainguides.com/AMGA_Top_Rope_Site_Manager_Course.htm
This is the site, but the pre-requ. I'm not sure about is the one that says you must possess all personal gear. What do they mean by that? All i have is a "baby rack" (lol my name for it) of some basic sport lead and carabiners for top roping off bolts, I'm just not sure of what they mean by all personal gear......and if you feel like answering, has anyone heard of that guide school and is good?
Thanks alot for any replies,
Nick
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joshy8200
Feb 27, 2006, 5:28 PM
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I think it's great that you have an interest in furthering your climbing knowledge by taking the TRSM course. But I think you'd need a bit more experience and probably would be an expensive program that would be of little use to you unless you plan to actually guide groups.
The Skills Courses would be geared more toward your experience level and are much less expensive...but will still go over many of the same techniques and give you much of the same general knowledge. I don't think you have to have your own gear for these...but you might.
When it says your own gear for the TRSM course...it means all the gear for setting up top-ropes in many different settings, prussick loops, spare biners,...etc.
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cfnubbler
Feb 27, 2006, 5:31 PM
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Hey, I just had a wild idea...why don't you call Fox Mnt. Guides and ask them? It's just crazy enough to work!
And yes, Fox is a reputable and professional outfit.
-Nubbler
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timm
Feb 27, 2006, 5:33 PM
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The TR Site Mananger Courses are offered by different providers. I don't know anything about the provider you mentioned. But I have good experiences thru other providers. You should ask them for their qualifications and references.
I've taken this course a number of years ago and I am re-taking it in April in Joshua Tree thru Todd Vogel and his guide service.
It is recommended that you have some trad leading skills and be able to place protection (not just clipping bolts) and that you have a trad rack. The anchors that you will build are not just bolted anchors but consist of building anchors off natural features and off of placed gear.
When I originally took the class in 1998 (1999?), I was the only one in the class that knew how to place gear and unforntunately the class degraded into a class of how to place gear. I think that the AMGA has toughen the prerequistes so that you definitely need some trad experience to be admitted into the class.
If you don't have a trad rack and associated skills, I don't think the provider will allow you in the class, and even if they do, you won't get much out of it.
PM if you want more details.
Tim
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class5kaker
Feb 27, 2006, 5:36 PM
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Thanks,
I do plan on guiding groups a little later. However i will take your advice on the skills courses and maybe wait a little bit until the TRSM.
Touche cfnubbler Touche, when im ready ill make the call.
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j_ung
Feb 27, 2006, 5:38 PM
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Second the suggestion to call 'em up. I know Adam and many of his guides, including my old roomate who is still one of my main climbing partners. IMO, they're top-notch people and instructors.
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timm
Feb 27, 2006, 5:45 PM
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Oh, one more thing. For your TRSM Certification to be valid, you also need a Wilderness First Aid or Wilderness First Responsder certification ... depending upon your proximity to professional emergency care where you will be guiding. You can get a jump start and get the appropriate medical certification before the TRSM class.
Not a bad thing to know anyways.
Tim
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epoch
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Feb 27, 2006, 5:52 PM
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class5kaker,
I beleive that you may find some useful information HERE AT THE AMGA TRSM PAGE!!! Although you seem to have much entheuasism about the course, be sure that you meet ALL of the requirements before signing on for the course. I am an AMGA TRSM working on higher goals, and I saw 4 of my colleagues fail the course because they weren't prepared for it. There are allot of valuable skills taught throughout the course, and it only frusterates the instructor and the other students if they have to "backstep" and train what whould have already been established. Adam Fox is currently the overseer of the course, and from what I have heard, the course is continually growing. Call and maybe even schedule time with an AMGA certified guide to assess your skills.
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mcfoley
Feb 27, 2006, 5:57 PM
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I think you have to be able to climb 5.10 TR, and lead (TRAD) 5.8, at least that's what I recall reading.
I'd say to the AMGA website and read it the pre-req's there...
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epoch
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Feb 27, 2006, 6:07 PM
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PS: Personal gear equals the following:
Standard rack (I'll be nice so you don't have to get beat up elsewhere)
--1-2 Sets Cams
--1-2 Sets Nuts
--1 Set Tricams (pink -> navy blue) OR Hexes
--4 HMS Pearbiners
--Slings, slings, slings. (Some nylon, some tied)
--Crapload of biners
Harness (Duh)
Shoes (Duh X 2)
Tubular Belay Device
Gri-gri
Rope (Dynamic)(60 meter)
50 - 70 feet, Static, 10+mil, rope
That's just to get started... They will expand on it here and there. Plus you had better have a good working knowledge of yer knots...
Edit: to include things I missed.
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taino
Feb 27, 2006, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: I think you have to be able to climb 5.10 TR, and lead (TRAD) 5.8, at least that's what I recall reading. I'd say to the AMGA website and read it the pre-req's there...
Incorrect.
You need to be able to comfortably climb 5.7-5.8 on top-rope. You do not need any leading experience, although it's extremely helpful if you do. You DO need to know how to properly place gear and build an anchor with what you have. You DO need all the trad gear to do so, i.e. a rack or a substantial part of one. You also need certification in: First Aid and CPR or CPR/AED(all Red Cross or equivalent); in NYS, you will also need Basic Water Safety for a NYS DEC license. The above is only if you're within 1 hour of a hospital. If you are not, you will need to be certified as WFA (Wilderness First Aid) as a minimum instead of First Aid.
It's extremely helpful if you already know how to: escape a belay, set up various haul systems including a 2:1, 2:1+, 3:1, and 3:1+, ascend a rope using prusiks. That will allow you to focus more on the other aspects of the course, such as navigating 3rd and 4th class terrain with clients, how to manage a group, how to set up and easily change between a client belay and an instructor belay, etc.
T
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healyje
Feb 27, 2006, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: Ive been climbing mainly in the gym for 5 years now, and have some outdoor experience in top roping. .... I do plan on guiding groups a little later...
Nick,
Don't mean to be a downer, and maybe I'm just a real old schooler, but there looks to me to be a world of experience missing between those two statements regardless of any course you may take. Taking a course, even one with such a lofty title as TRSM, really isn't remotely a substitute for a lot more yardage on rockand experience than you currently possess.
And even if you took courses to get certified in all the skills taino is talking about, I'd still say that's no substitute for real experience climbing [outside]. I'd recommend just getting the hell outside and climbing and do it for awhile before ever considering adding anyone besides your climbing partners to the mix.
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class5kaker
Feb 27, 2006, 6:31 PM
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OH yea, not a problem. I know the extent of my plans...i gues the statement "a little later" should have been a lot later... lol.... I will get more experience though.
Thanks
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healyje
Feb 27, 2006, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: OH yea, not a problem. I know the extent of my plans...i gues the statement "a little later" should have been a lot later... lol.... I will get more experience though. Thanks
Cool Nick, glad to hear it - no need to rush, enjoy just climbing for at least a little while...
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jimdavis
Feb 27, 2006, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: The course is intended for recreational climbers who are already proficient in top rope climbing and who, preferably, have lead climbing experience. It is designed to benefit outdoor instructors, aspiring guides, and climbers who facilitate or seek to facilitate top rope climbing programs in group settings such as camps, schools, universities, therapeutic groups, and climbing schools.
I'm working for the guy who wrote that course, now.
You need to have your own gear for the course. Most people fail that course for not being able to build a gear anchor quickly enough.
I think you could learn a lot from taking that course, but it's not an Intro to Top Roping. The course focuses on picking the best system for a given situation (i.e. being effecient)...so if it's just building recreational anchors for you and your buddies, that your after....I think you could spend your money on something a little better suited to you.
A lot of guide services will offer a course in TR anchors. It'll be less than the AMGA course, and will be focused on basic anchoring skills.
I wouldn't recommend taking the AMGA TRSM course until you can build pre-equalised and self equalised TR and rappell anchors on trees, boulders, bolts, and gear in a timely matter. If you can't do that going into the course, you probably won't pass.
The cert means more if your trying to get a job guiding or working for a camp or something. For the average climber, the cert won't get you anywhere, so why pay for it?
But yeah, call Fox up, he'll let you know if your ready for it or not.
Cheers,
Jim
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jimdavis
Feb 27, 2006, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: PS: Personal gear equals the following: Standard rack (I'll be nice so you don't have to get beat up elsewhere) ...... Gri-gri ...... Edit: to include things I missed.
You don't need a grigri for the course/ exam...but if you have one, you are allowed to use it.
Cheers,
Jim
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timm
Feb 27, 2006, 6:47 PM
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In reply to: I'm working for the guy who wrote that course, now.
You must be working for Jon Tierney. That's who I took the TRSM from years ago. Great guy and guide.
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jimdavis
Feb 28, 2006, 3:56 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm working for the guy who wrote that course, now. You must be working for Jon Tierney. That's who I took the TRSM from years ago. Great guy and guide.
Yup, I'm not guiding for him though...just workin in his shop.
Cheers,
Jim
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deltav
Feb 28, 2006, 4:41 AM
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Adam's outfit is top notch.
For an additional $30, Adam will rent you a fully loaded pack with all the gear that you need for the course.
This includes all items to set up a TR, gri-gri(required) static rope, and a small rack.
The first aid "requirement" for the course is only if you are guiding further than 2 hrs from definitive health care, and then that is WFR. More than likely, you wont be, and being so, there is no 1st aid requirement
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iclime
Mar 1, 2006, 6:05 PM
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In reply to: PS: Personal gear equals the following: Standard rack (I'll be nice so you don't have to get beat up elsewhere) --1-2 Sets Cams --1-2 Sets Nuts --1 Set Tricams (pink -> navy blue) OR Hexes --4 HMS Pearbiners --Slings, slings, slings. (Some nylon, some tied) --Crapload of biners Harness (Duh) Shoes (Duh X 2) Tubular Belay Device Gri-gri Rope (Dynamic)(60 meter) 50 - 70 feet, Static, 10+mil, rope
So, I disagree with calling all of this personal gear. In my climbing circle, "personal gear" is what isn't the rack or the rope. It would typically include belay device with carabiner (I think not on the GriGri) A hand full of locking and non-locking carabiners (for clipping into anchors, rescue, etc.) And probably Anyway, I don't know about AMGA specifically, but I know of relatively few courses that are going to allow you to use your own life-safety gear beyond your harness and belay device/carabiner combo, so for the most part this is a moot point. I think they're just trying to keep people from showing up figuring that everything is going to be provided.
M
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taino
Mar 1, 2006, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: So, I disagree with calling all of this personal gear. In my climbing circle, "personal gear" is what isn't the rack or the rope. It would typically include belay device with carabiner (I think not on the GriGri) A hand full of locking and non-locking carabiners (for clipping into anchors, rescue, etc.) And probably Anyway, I don't know about AMGA specifically, but I know of relatively few courses that are going to allow you to use your own life-safety gear beyond your harness and belay device/carabiner combo, so for the most part this is a moot point. I think they're just trying to keep people from showing up figuring that everything is going to be provided. M
Disagree all you want - but that's pretty much what you need. You have to be able to build the anchors you're doing to use, and to do that you're going to need gear.
FWIW, in my climbing circles the definition of "personal gear" is similar to yours. However, for the TRSM course you need whatever gear is necessary for building anchors.
T
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jimdavis
Mar 1, 2006, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: Adam's outfit is top notch. For an additional $30, Adam will rent you a fully loaded pack with all the gear that you need for the course. This includes all items to set up a TR, gri-gri(required)
Perhaps you can find where the AMGA says this is required? http://www.amga.com
I know 5 people that have taken this course, all in the past 4 years; and the man who wrote it. Unless that has changed in the past few months, you are not required to have a grigri on the course.
Everything CAN be done with an regular ATC, or a Reverso/b-52/ GiGi. You are permitted to use one for your course and exam, if you have your own. I'm sure it's strongly encouraged to have one, or find one....but it's not required.
Cheers,
Jim
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epoch
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Mar 1, 2006, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: So, I disagree with calling all of this personal gear. In my climbing circle, "personal gear" is what isn't the rack or the rope. It would typically include belay device with carabiner (I think not on the GriGri) A hand full of locking and non-locking carabiners (for clipping into anchors, rescue, etc.) And probably Anyway, I don't know about AMGA specifically, but I know of relatively few courses that are going to allow you to use your own life-safety gear beyond your harness and belay device/carabiner combo, so for the most part this is a moot point. I think they're just trying to keep people from showing up figuring that everything is going to be provided. M
I think that what you fail to understand is that this is a certification by a respected climbing authority. Once a person has obtained said certification they are certified to take clients out on tours. By owning/having the gear at the time of the course, it relays to the provider that you may actually have a clue as to what is needed for an on-site setup of a top rope environment. (I.E. you have the equipment necessary to properly conduct yourself within the confines of your certification.) Furthermore you will need your own equipment to complete the course, as all participants are often setting up equipment at the same time. The course really isn't geared around actual climbing, but the employment of systems to ensure client safety.
PS: Follow the link in my previous post, you may learn something... :righton:
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iclime
Mar 2, 2006, 12:37 AM
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In reply to: I think that what you fail to understand is that this is a certification by a respected climbing authority. Once a person has obtained said certification they are certified to take clients out on tours. By owning/having the gear at the time of the course, it relays to the provider that you may actually have a clue as to what is needed for an on-site setup of a top rope environment. (I.E. you have the equipment necessary to properly conduct yourself within the confines of your certification.) Furthermore you will need your own equipment to complete the course, as all participants are often setting up equipment at the same time. The course really isn't geared around actual climbing, but the employment of systems to ensure client safety. PS: Follow the link in my previous post, you may learn something... :righton:
Don't be an asshole with your "fail to understand" bullshit. Feel free to entertain the possibility that you fail to understand that I am actually quite familiar with AMGA. I am aware that many climbers consider it to be a "respected climbing authority," including me most of the time.
In reply to: For an additional $30, Adam will rent you a fully loaded pack with all the gear that you need for the course.
Don't get me wrong, I generally hold AMGA and AMGA-certified guides in high regard. It just bothers me when I hear the AMGA people spouting off about how they're certified this and certified that. Great. I'm glad your certified. But there usually seems to be an undercurrent off disdain for climbers, instructors, or guides that have not sought AMGA or commiserate certification. I sure could be reading into things, but that's what I hear when you say "Once a person has obtained said certification they are certified to take clients out on tours."
In the US, AMGA certs only mean something because many in the climbing community have agreed that they do. There's not much of an outside check on the the association's methods, policies, and protocol. Usually they do a pretty good job nonetheless, but it's like those martial arts instructors that roll up in the satin uniform and the multicolored belt. They're eager to tell you how they're the ninth-dan grand master of the Sha-hoos Budokan Jutsu... and they founded the style. I'm rereading this, and I think that this may come across a bit more caustic that I would have hoped, but I'll leave it in because the metaphor is apt.
M
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epoch
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Mar 2, 2006, 2:17 AM
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In reply to: Don't be an asshole with your "fail to understand" shit. ... In the US, AMGA certs only mean something because many in the climbing community have agreed that they do. There's not much of an outside check on the the association's methods, policies, and protocol. ...
Actually, you can note that the AMGA is recognized as a valid organization by the IFMGA. Furthermore in order to obtain accredidation with the IFMGA they were and are continually checked by the IFMGA.
In reply to: In 1965 in Zermatt (Switzerland) representatives of the mountain guides associations from Italy, France, Austria and Switzerland decided to lay the foundations for an international federation of all mountain guides associations. First statutes in 1966. The purposes of the federation are: Adjustement of the laws of the mountain guides by promoting a uniform professional training as possible, in order to facilitate the practice of the mountain guide occupation abroad. Among other things by issuing a common international document of identification. When needed to give an arbitral tribunal, that has advisory function, and serves as mediate in case of points of issue between members and third parties. To study problems of general and economic nature affecting the occupation of mounatin guides. To order to arrange closer comeradeship and the exchange of ideas amongst the mountain guides of all nations.
Edit: I can't spell.
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deltav
Mar 2, 2006, 4:15 AM
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Here is the info from Fox Mountain Guide's regarding gear.
Climbing Equipment:
bullet UIAA/CE approved Climbing Helmet
bullet UIAA/CE approved Climbing Harness with belay loop
bullet Climbing shoes or approach shoes you can climb in to 5.7
bullet Standard “climbing rack” such as, Stoppers, SLCD's, Tri-cams, etc.
bullet Assorted 24” and 48” Slings (at least one 48” Sling)
bullet 10 or more non-locking carabineers
bullet 3 or more “HMS/Pearbiners”
bullet 5 or more locking carabineers, (more the better)
bullet Belay/rappel device, such as the “Reverso”, “ATC”, etc.
bullet Petzl GriGri belay device
bullet 2 Prussic loops (3 ft of 5mm Nylon Accessory Cord)
bullet 2 Cordelettes (21 ft. of 7mm Nylon Accessory Cord or 5.5mm “Spectra” Cord)
bullet One 165-200 ft "single" rope (9.5-11mm) suitable for top roping
bullet One static or “semi static” (gym line) rope 10-11mm, 80-100ft, for setting up anchors and fixed lines
General Equipment:
Clothing: Appropriate for guiding and in good condition. Be prepared for being outside and active during inclement weather, i.e. bring windproof and water proof clothing and for the course.
Footwear: Closed toe approach shoes appropriate for wearing all day at the cliff.
Daypack: Include water bottle, sunglasses, headlamp, notebook/pencil, first aid kit, etc.
Camping: If you are camping bring appropriate equipment.
Fox Mountain Guides Climbing Equipment Rental Charges
Equipment
Rental For Multi Day Course
Full Climbing Course Rack
Includes all equipment for all AMGA Courses.
$30
Now, regardless of what your opinion is, the fact of the matter is that if you want to work in the industry, you must be AMGA certified. Insurance companies require it, and most organizations want to hire a "certified" guide, if nothing else, to cover their butts.
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joshy8200
Mar 2, 2006, 5:43 AM
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Saying that the AMGA doesn't have some sort of 'outside' its own circle legitimacy (which as said, it does) is ridiculous. Even if there were no other group to check up on the AMGA...it would still be its own governing body. Think about physicians, pharmacists, therapists, and such. These groups have a certification board that is pretty much its own governing body and their certification is the standard.
Groups that don't staff guides that are AMGA certified...or help their employees get AMGA certification may have great employees that are highly qualified to do the tasks at hand. But I can almost guarantee that someone who has taken the time to go through AMGA courses will gain a proficiency of skills that surpasses many others.
You folks that are saying AMGA certification isn't all that great...have you ever seen anyone actually teaching an AMGA course or personally know someone that guides with FMG or other fully staffed AMGA guide companies? Because I can tell you that the folks that I know who have gone through at least the TRSM course...take their self-rescue skills to a level of proficiency that is above and beyond most.
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iclime
Mar 2, 2006, 6:31 AM
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In reply to: You folks that are saying AMGA certification isn't all that great...have you ever seen anyone actually teaching an AMGA course or personally know someone that guides with FMG or other fully staffed AMGA guide companies? Because I can tell you that the folks that I know who have gone through at least the TRSM course...take their self-rescue skills to a level of proficiency that is above and beyond most.
If you want to guide for a company, you'll likely need at least entry-level AMGA classes. If you get hauled into court, and you're not AMGA certified (or some other equivalent), it could look negligent. If you're insured (directly or indirectly) and the company knows what it's insuring, you'll possibly need it. These are all true. But none of them point to an automatic or even probable higher level of technical skill or safety on the part of guide.
In the professions you listed, the self-governing boards, even if they are widely-recognized, are secondary to a state or federal examination. I'm not saying that the government requirements automatically guarantee a higher quality, but in my mind, they grant an element of authenticity that is potentially lacking in a self-governed body. Basically, the government doesn't have any particularly high-level interests in making doctors and therapists happy at a cost to the general public. This simply cannot be true for self-governing bodies. The IFMGA suffers from this same deficiency.
In reply to: Actually, you can note that the AMGA is recognized as a valid organization by the IFMGA. Furthermore in order to obtain accredidation with the IFMGA they were and are continually checked by the IFMGA.
In reply to: Do some research before you open your mouth.
M
Edit for punctuation.
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