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teak
Apr 5, 2006, 7:01 PM
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Anyone? Have you even heard of any climbs. I've heard bits and pieces of epics that occurred but don't know if any of it's true.
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chossmonkey
Apr 5, 2006, 7:19 PM
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Is that the one on the Boy Scout camp down in New Mexico?
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sausalito
Apr 5, 2006, 7:20 PM
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at philmont scout ranch in New Mexico? I dont think anyone has done it in several years but I am pretty sure someone climbed it in the mid 80s. I am pretty sure climbing is either not allowed or tightly monitored there.... but you may be talking about a different place so who knows...
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sausalito
Apr 5, 2006, 7:21 PM
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in new mexico? I think someone climbed it in the early 80s but I dont think climbing is allowed there anymore.
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teak
Apr 5, 2006, 7:50 PM
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Yep...that's the only Tooth of Time I know of. My guess is that lovely face is at least 1600' tall.
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craftedpacket
Apr 5, 2006, 8:01 PM
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Thats an interesting piece of rock. I climb in New Mexico quite often, live in texas. Would be interested in checking that at as well.
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spinney
Apr 5, 2006, 8:10 PM
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I hiked the Tooth in the early 90s when I was in Philmont for a Boy Scout Training Program. Since it's located on Boy Scout property, I would think that access would be an issue. That is, unless you showed up in uniform...
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csgambill
Apr 5, 2006, 8:15 PM
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I was there back in '94. I have the topo (not a climbing topo) at home, so I can check the height of the face. Maybe we can start lobbying the BSA for access.
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craftedpacket
Apr 5, 2006, 8:32 PM
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It would be interesting to find out the height of that face. Anyone know what type of rock it is? I wouldnt think the boyscouts would be that stingy of their land. Even if you had to pay a small fee for access and sign a waivor of some sort it would be worth it.
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curtis_g
Apr 5, 2006, 9:16 PM
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ive hiked the backside like, boulder scrambling, twice
i don't think that the scouts would allow climbing
they are really protective of their land and are very
VERY safety concerned. I'm not sure if a waiver would
even do the trick. ive spent a lot of time in the program
and just recently aged out and my first instinct is like
to not even condier it because doing anything like
multi-pitch climbing isnt even considered with the scouts.
but that doesn't mean i wouldn't love to climb it, or see
other people climb it. man i think it would be awesome
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craftedpacket
Apr 5, 2006, 9:22 PM
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I have nothing against the boy scouts. But I have been to a few established parks that boyscouts frequent in the area...and I have yet to see anything that resembled strong saftey concerns. Its amazing what scary situations a few boy scout dads and a rope can create. "sure that single 1" rotten tree branch is great to rap off of". I am sure I have just had some bad experiences and most leaders are trained and very safe...I just havent seen that around here.
I can understand them being protective of their land...I guess we could all go join the NM boyscouts (with the secret intention of climbing that of course :p)
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curtis_g
Apr 5, 2006, 10:20 PM
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its true that scout troops are usually pretty dangerous, but council and national offices are horribly strict with safety. individual troops? well yu can just imagine 3 adults and 20 kids hanging out by a cliff...
well all the leaders are trained to stay safe at least, most of the time.
minor note: philmont is BSA national property but you only trek at philmont through their office and a schedule they set that you pick from.othervise, youre not suposed to be there, otherwise id go climb it, heck, im still a registered leader. haha
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chossmonkey
Apr 5, 2006, 11:10 PM
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Yeah that is the one I was thinking of.
A friend of mine told me about it in high school. He hiked to the top of it when he was down there for Eagle Scouts.
I think climbing it is pretty off limits. I don't know if he told me that or if I heard that from someone else.
It's in my old edition of Tim Toula's Rock 'n Road.
In reply to: The Tooth of Time, 9003', is a stunning 500'(?) granite face and a selection of pinnacles towering above the Philmont Ranch. Assorted outcroppings in nearby vicinity to the south. Permission must be granted to climb or must be active scout (or active trespasser). Routes done as early as 1972 by Davis, Wright, and Barrett. |
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curtis_g
Apr 5, 2006, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: Yeah that is the one I was thinking of. A friend of mine told me about it in high school. He hiked to the top of it when he was down there for Eagle Scouts. I think climbing it is pretty off limits. I don't know if he told me that or if I heard that from someone else. It's in my old edition of Tim Toula's Rock 'n Road. In reply to: The Tooth of Time, 9003', is a stunning 500'(?) granite face and a selection of pinnacles towering above the Philmont Ranch. Assorted outcroppings in nearby vicinity to the south. Permission must be granted to climb or must be active scout (or active trespasser). Routes done as early as 1972 by Davis, Wright, and Barrett.
another minor note: he might have been an eagle scout but thats not like an organization its a rank you achievce. he was down there with the scouts. maybe he was an eagle scout. sorry but it's a pet peeve.
i would say its about a 500' face. the photos taken of that face of it are from a base camp or plains area just under 6000 feet and like you said that peak is at 9003' i have a topo on the wall in my room, i can probably tell you from. h/o
it was just over 5 contour lines at it's highest point. 80ft per line, thats somewhere around but more than 400 feet. i'd say the 500' mark is accurate.
how old is that 'old' edition of Rock 'n Road?
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pendereki
Apr 5, 2006, 11:36 PM
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Yes, The Tooth of Time has been climbed. I know of several ascents in the early '90's and somewhere around here I have a climbing topo of some of the routes. I did a quick look and could not find it. I think I recall about 600+ feet of climbing in the 5.8 or 5.9 range
I looked at that rock every day for three months and then passed on the chance to sneak up it in favor of the Petit Grepon. To the best of my knowlege, climbing is not allowed on the Tooth, and I did want to return to the ranch.
CM
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dvd
Apr 5, 2006, 11:45 PM
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short answer:: you cant climb the tooth
Quick credituals
Ive spent the last two summers and the last fall waking up to stare at the crack on that face.
What I gathered, hearsay, Phil rumors...
1. be prepared to be arrested for trespassing should you attempt
2. its a 5.8-5.9, with tricky nut placements
3. Dennis Jackson (Rock Climbing, New Mexico and Texas) has tried to get permission to take parties up the face but has been denied. (thats from him)
4. we estimated the face being closer to 1500-1800', (base is at 6 it tops out at 9)
5. Climbing is strickly regulated to the climbing camps, (The Cow, Cito and Miners)
6. my boss liked me and I still couldnt get permission to climb the tooth
For any other Phil Staffers
IWTGBTP
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curtis_g
Apr 6, 2006, 5:45 AM
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In reply to: short answer:: you cant climb the tooth Quick credituals Ive spent the last two summers and the last fall waking up to stare at the crack on that face. What I gathered, hearsay, Phil rumors... 1. be prepared to be arrested for trespassing should you attempt 2. its a 5.8-5.9, with tricky nut placements 3. Dennis Jackson ( Rock Climbing, New Mexico and Texas) has tried to get permission to take parties up the face but has been denied. (thats from him) 4. we estimated the face being closer to 1500-1800', (base is at 6 it tops out at 9) 5. Climbing is strickly regulated to the climbing camps, (The Cow, Cito and Miners) 6. my boss liked me and I still couldnt get permission to climb the tooth For any other Phil Staffers IWTGBTP
im pretty sure the vegitation ends and the face lands itself to only about 600 feet of technical climbing.
haven't climbed at cito. liked dean cow better than miner's tho. and better than harlan too. haha, i got kicked by a burro during the race. ouch.
the cow is my favorite camp on the entire ranch. unstaffed comanche peak is a tough competitor tho. so beautiful.
"Philmont here's to thee, souting's paradise, out in God's country, tonight."
IWTGBBBBBBBBBBBBTP!
Heck, I looked at the arrowhead last time I left...I think its law that I return.
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mtnfr34k
Apr 6, 2006, 6:29 AM
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Yep, the Tooth is closed to climbing. Absolutely.
With that semi-official statement, here's what I remember.
There is a topo for a multi-pitch, 10a route. Classic strategy was to wear Philmont staff shirts for the last pitch, so that if you encountered any hikers on the summit you could claim to be "surveying raptor nesting".
The route was poached at least three times that I'm aware of from 1987-1993.
But that's just my memory...
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musicman1586
Apr 6, 2006, 3:00 PM
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Are the known routes all free climbing or is it some free and some aid?
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craftedpacket
Apr 6, 2006, 3:04 PM
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Hey musicman...have you climbed at salado (sp?) in the San Antone area? Can you tell me where that is?
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ccard257
Apr 6, 2006, 3:33 PM
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A little more info on climbing the tooth-
In addition to being on private property, its protected as a national landmark or something like that so you'll get prosecuted for that too if you get caught
i know two people who did it a few summers ago and said it was three long pitches of 5.7-5.8
there are several established routes, some with aid (5.11 A3) some with out. Some of these routes also have some fixed pro, but i hear that the gear is being cleaned early this summer.
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hillbillywannabe
Apr 6, 2006, 3:53 PM
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"high adventure" boyscout staffers are so funny stuff like "we are surveying for raptors" happens all the time and its hilarious. one time a leader told us that this tree bark made a tea and the tea would give you a "buzz" so some of these guys were like whoa i feel it... and the smarter people in our group just kinda laughed at them... too bad that troop was over run with spoiled city kids that want to go camping in the mall... =(
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musicman1586
Apr 6, 2006, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: Hey musicman...have you climbed at salado (sp?) in the San Antone area? Can you tell me where that is?
Can't say I have, Red Bluff is pretty much the only area I know for climbing in San Antonio, all bouldering. Heard of several other places and there's a number listed in the route database, but don't know anyone that's actually ever been out to them.
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deserteaglle
Apr 6, 2006, 5:26 PM
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B-Dog, you knopw I'm always down for breaking da law, but isn't it going to be pretty hard to run away with your foot in a cast? :lol:
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craftedpacket
Apr 6, 2006, 5:45 PM
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Ya we might have to wait another month...but hey...4 pitches of 5.7 - 5-8 I might could do that in my cast lol.
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hillbillywannabe
Apr 6, 2006, 5:45 PM
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i dont think there will be any running, they probly have some sort of super rap anchor at the top so they can just get their gigantic rope that goes all the way to the bottom and rap down to you and cuff you to a bolt and leave you there to die. yeah the boyscouts are cool like that...
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haydukematt
Jun 23, 2006, 2:27 PM
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Little late in the thread here, but I was bored at work and stumbled across this as I was googling things....anyways here's the deal with the tooth:
If you're not a staff member at philmont and you climb it they will press charges for tresspassing, if you are a staff member and you get caught they will fire you, several staffers in the '80's were fired for this I believe.
That being said, it's pretty easy to not get caught, you can un-rope at the end of the 4th pitch and 3rd class it to the summit with all your gear hidden in backpacks.
The route is 4 pitches of mostly 5.7 to 5.8 with a 5.10ish move on the first pitch. Nothing too tricky about the gear placements though if you're a competent trad climber. I know it was climbed in '02 but not sure of any more recent. It's a great route as far as I know...if you work there I'd say it's worth the risk...just keep your mouth shut about it and start early in the morning.
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craftedpacket
Jun 23, 2006, 2:50 PM
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^^^Interesting.
But if your not a boyscout...or your not an employee there...I wonder how hard it is to get on the land. Perhaps as simple as jumping a fence? I have not seen the rock in person...just pictures.
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csgambill
Jun 23, 2006, 2:57 PM
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It would be extremely easy to get on the land. I was there once before everything got rolling for the summer season and I remember the place basically being a ghost town.
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haydukematt
Jun 23, 2006, 3:07 PM
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getting on the land is pretty easy there's an area where the staff park a couple miles from the base near a big fort looking thing called the stockade, however all the staff cars are required to have a philmont parking sticker. The road there is un-gated and pretty easy to get to, however it's a fairly high traffic road for philmont (lot of hikers and philmont vehicles) I guess it just depends how far you're willing to hike and maybe hope a barbed wire fence or two since there are some pull offs from the main public road near there.
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landgolier
Jun 23, 2006, 3:50 PM
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Getting to the base wouldn't be a problem, there are touristas and parents and stuff wandering around all the time, but if you want to poach this sucker you need to keep in mind that the whole camp can see you the whole time. It is at a pretty good distance, but in season I bet there's not a moment of the day when there isn't at least one set of binoculars pointed at that thing. When there aren't scouts there there will be less surveilance but it will be harder to get in. Also keep in mind that in season 2 or 3 people walking off of there will look weird even if there are lots of people around (philmont groups are bigger than that), and IIRC there will be rangers up there since some backpacking routes go up the tooth right off the bat.
I know I'm not going to be able to talk somebody out of it if poaching gives them wood, but it's not like there's a shortage of long moderates in NM. Go climb somewhere else. Also remember that if you get into trouble up there you're either going to be dealing with a BSA SAR team that won't be very good at doing big wall technical face plucks and won't be real happy to be there, or you're going to be waiting a freakin' long time while a team comes over from Taos or the ski area or something.
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mrcoolshoes1105
Jun 23, 2006, 3:56 PM
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Ah the Tooth... i scrambled up the back in the early morning one day in 2002 on my trek, and it was one of the most amazing sunrises i ever witnessed. Seeing the pics on this thread makes me want to go back real bad.
The BSA and climbing....yeah, about that.
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rgbscan
Jun 23, 2006, 4:34 PM
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I visited philmont twice as a scout back in the early 90's. I seem to recall that both group photos taken by the philmont staff featured the tooth as a backdrop. Who knows, if you pull it off you might be forever preserved in someone's camp picture. Tell me that wouldn't be sweet.
Chris
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haydukematt
Jun 23, 2006, 5:37 PM
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I say poach away...the route isn't to terribly tough and it's stupid that the ranch management at philmont won't let you climb it even when there are no scouts present. They're willing to let big doner to the BSA go big game hunting in the off season, so what's wrong with climbing....we're not shooting up the place! Also it's not like you'll be risking ruining access for other climbers or anything like that....their policy isn't going to change anytime soon. As for getting caught, it's not like there's a "climbing police" at philmont....i doubt they spend too much time even thinking about it unless sombody as been talking it up amongst the staff that particular summer.
The tooth is definately the coolest route there, but there's actually a good bit of climbing thoughout the ranch, but unless you're working there on staff it's not worth tesspassing for. But there are trad and sport lines from as easy as you want up to 5.11/5.12 and a bunch of good bouldering too. Every few years there's a bunch of actual climbers that work there and there more then enough rock to climb and have fun there on...especially the tooth!
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csgambill
Jun 23, 2006, 5:48 PM
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Now, in light of the Dean Potter/Delicate Arch incident, would the climbing community get upset if somebody climbed the Tooth of Time sans permission from the BSA?
A couple of differences between the two climbs:
1. Arches is on public (fed govt. land)
2. Delicate Arch is more likely to fall apart than the Tooth of Time
3. Screwing around at Arches can threaten access, while there is currently no access at Philmot Scout Ranch, so there is little for the climbing community to loose from such an action.
Any thoughts?
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icyfrosty
Jun 23, 2006, 6:05 PM
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I know this will sound kinda crazy. BUT why not scope it out during the day and climb it during the night :) It's a big more "epic" but your probably won't be seen during your night mission !
Just my less than 2 cent !
Icy, It's dark i'm lost where the map for this ?!?!, Frosty
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landgolier
Jun 23, 2006, 6:20 PM
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Ummm...unless you're going to run up it under a full moon, I'm pretty sure somebody would see two headlamps up there.
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haydukematt
Jun 23, 2006, 6:23 PM
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I don't think the climbing community should have a problem with someone climbing the tooth w/out permission, mostly for a lot of the reason's listed above.
The no climbing rule is largley just becasue the BSA dosen't want to get sued by a climber who hurts themselves on the route. The tooth isn't going to fall apart like delicate arch could...it's dacite porphery (sp) bascially an igneous rock that's pretty close to granite, but not quite, so i wouldn't worry about environmental concerns climbing it. The only conern i had would be if a scout/camper saw and tried to climb it themselves without the proper skills....but in my book that's their own stupidity if they hurt themselves that way. The climbing ban is just a stupid c.y.a. rule.
The access issue is pretty much just what you said...climbers (even on staff) aren't suppose to climb on the "non-program" routes anyways, so there's really nothing to lose except maybe some cash if you get caught.
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flatstateclimber
Jun 26, 2006, 2:05 PM
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In reply to: The only conern i had would be if a scout/camper saw and tried to climb it themselves without the proper skills....but in my book that's their own stupidity if they hurt themselves that way. The climbing ban is just a stupid c.y.a. rule.
Therein lies the rub then. It pretty well sounds like it's not an issue of if a camper sees you, it's when. You can't blame stupidity if a kid goes up there and tries to climb it without supervision or proper equipment or skill level. By and large, the campers there are teenagers, moreso than the adults on the treks with them. Remember what you were like as a teenage boy? "That's f'in cool! I wanna do it. I'm invincible!!!"
Sidenote, having been a scout myself at Philmont, that thought never entered my mind. Now, had I seen someone climbing it while I was there, that would've infinitely more intriguing than the bunny slope slab climbs they put us on in Cimarroncito.
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bongbong
Dec 11, 2009, 12:58 AM
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I was Philmont Staff in 1995 at Cito. I hiked to the bottom of the Tooth with gear. My plan was to rope solo (as nobody else was willing to risk being fired for climbing the Tooth). As I was setting a base anchor (rope solo rig), a thunderstorm explodes above me. It rained long enough that I had to bail. Maybe it was God's way of saying, the glory of the first solo of the tooth wasn't to be mine. I still think of that day roped up, ready to go, rain drops falling.
(I did bag a FA on the Grizzly Tooth that same weekend, and got the first onsight on a 12- at cito, so it wasn't exactly a bad summer.)
To do the tooth, you'd need to be Philmont Staff and expect to be fired if caught. That was our understanding - climb it and get fired. The rock didn't look that big from the base. It's not at all worth risking an arrest for trespassing if you are not Philmont Staff. Also, beware that kids go to the top to watch the sunrise - you can expect a hail of rocks coming down at any time.
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jlong25
May 20, 2011, 12:37 AM
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I would say someone climbs this every year, alot of climbers work on the staff. It is off limits so anyone who gets caught gets fired. |
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