I actually thought that I was responding to the OP. I am not a computer person, just a meat-head.

Carry On,

Jefro

I realise over-crowding can be a problem in places and many people cherish trad especially because it requires extra knowledge of gear and keeps people out, but this is enherently elitist.

hmmm, apart from possibly bringing down the aesthetic value of a crack line, I don't see what harm bolting a crack does. Other than maybe making it cheaper, safer and therefore easier for other people to come climb it.

I realise over-crowding can be a problem in places and many people cherish trad especially because it requires extra knowledge of gear and keeps people out, but this is enherently elitist.

I know this is gonna put many people on this sites panties in a bunch, but that's the way I see it. I'm not going to go out and bolt some cracks, but I have no problem with a) FAs bolting cracks and b) climbing on said bolted cracks.

hmmm, apart from possibly bringing down the aesthetic value of a crack line, I don't see what harm bolting a crack does. Other than maybe making it cheaper, safer and therefore easier for other people to come climb it.

I realise over-crowding can be a problem in places and many people cherish trad especially because it requires extra knowledge of gear and keeps people out, but this is enherently elitist.

I know this is gonna put many people on this sites panties in a bunch, but that's the way I see it. I'm not going to go out and bolt some cracks, but I have no problem with a) FAs bolting cracks and b) climbing on said bolted cracks.

Ah, the old "trad climbing is expensive and [lordy!] complicated" elitist argument. No, actually it's about the rock, not the climbers - vestigial LNT and all that prehistoric thought as it were - as opposed to "modern" thinking that focuses on simply providing another fine entertainment product to risk-averse, entitlement-challenged suburban consumers.

How do you put a bolt in a crack? It sounds a bit sketchy to me...

There's nothing wrong with bolting cracks, IF you're a big sissy.

If it's really about the rock, you can lay your fears to rest. Bolting a rock doesn't destroy it. I love how people try and push this off as being a conservation issue.

Why don't you just man up and say you don't want it to happen because you don't want people sport climbing your trad routes?

Actually, it's hard to count the number of attributes of rock that bolts don't destroy. And I did just say don't screw up the rock so you can sport climb. Man up and learn to trad climb - don't screw up the rock turning trad crags into clip joints just so you can avoid stressing your supply of dollars, neurons, and emotional reserves.

Ah, the old "trad climbing is expensive and [lordy!] complicated" elitist argument.

No, actually it's about the rock, not the climbers - vestigial LNT and all that prehistoric thought as it were - as opposed to "modern" thinking that focuses on simply providing another fine entertainment product to risk-averse, entitlement-challenged suburban consumers.

My panties are in a bunch. If youd allow some bolted crack climbs whats gonna stop more and more bolts, and people over the years forget how to trad, destroying whats makes the climbing experience important.
Every climber is obligated to chop'em and put the hangers to better use elsewhere.

LOL, what? you're going to tell me it's not? Not that I have a problem with it, having spent 2-3 times the price I paid for my car on gear. I don't mind buying gear a single bit, but do I think it should be necessary to force people who want to learn new climbing skills/moves to buy trad gear, I don't think so.

LOL, cause piton scars are natural? Repetitive gear placements that damage the rock are not a problem? A 4 foot lichen-free swatch of rock going up either side of a crack is natural? Give me a break. If you really wanted to be LNT, you would stay at home.

And it's not about entitlement, it's about sharing what I enjoy with other people. Personally, what I enjoy is climbing.

Nope, there will still be areas to go trad climbing, don't worry. There are enough places that are remote and hard to reach, where bolting is not practical/convenient/useful in regards to the traffic it will receive.

When you have people lining up (literally) so that they can each put in their pro to climb the crack and then take it out, I can't help but feel that it's a little pointless.

Leave no trace. It's that simple. Minimize your impact. The exact logic you use to justify bolting, would justify another to do whatever they want to the rock, just because they feel like it. Is that hold too sharp? go ahead file it down. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a foothold right here? let's just make one.

The very essense of the trade off rock to turn it into just another risk-free suburban entertainment option. As you suggest - man up - or stay off the routes.

This is such a perverse view of "climbing" as to require quotes. Kid, you're really are operating without a GPS for the first time here I see and a compass is going to be totally lost on you. For someone with a profile statement like yours, your context for what climbing "is" is pretty damn warped, though sadly probably not all that uncommon these days....

LOL, having never used a GPS to go climbing before, I find your statement quite hilarious! So tell me, what is my context of what climbing is? Don't you just love the internet where random people think they know all about you?

Littering doesn't damadge the environment either. I mean, in a couple of million years it will have all disintegrated and the earth will be back to normal, right? Nothing wrong with littering. It allows more people to keep their cars clean, save energy from taking out the trash, etc. It's more convenient and fun for everyone. Damn, if only everyone knew how fun it was to throw some trash against a sign when blasting down the highway. We should all just litter. f--- those elitist bastards who say we should have to fork out the money for things like trash cans and disposal services, we obviously don't need them. Personally I am poor, so I don't see the point in spending my money on things like trash cans or having my tax dollars wasted on landfills and disposal services when I don't need them. Littering is so fun, and I want to share this passion with everyone! People only use trash cans to be hardcore; look, I take out my trash so I am not a lazy pantywaste like the rest of you. If I had a trash can, that's why I would have it. And come on, a little litter here or there wouldn't encourage anyone else to litter, would it?

Seriously though, the bolt as little as possible ethic may have started out mostly as an elitist perspective, but it has evolved into a conservationist ethic. People don't like bolted cracks for many reasons, the most valid of which I think is the visual impace/LNT doctrine. It's about respecting the land enough that you impact it as little as possible, saving it for future generations. Thats not to say that all bolts are inherently evil, I personally think a tastefully bolted and visually appealing line is a wonderful addition to any crag, and there are many times when a bolted anchor is certainly the best option. Flame on!

It's about climbing using cams, nuts, hexes, etc. to protect your ass against a fall while you're climbing on a rock.

The reasons for doing it? There are about as many reasons are there are climbers. So don't try and dictate "acceptable" reasons for doing it.

so you calling crack climbers sissy

some traddies can be oh so righteous...i'm not for bolting cracks, i think variety in climbing is cool, but its such a purist s--- mentality, most of them s--- on boudlering which is "purer" and has less impact...

If you need to bolt a perfectly good gear lead in order to climb it, then yes, you're a sissy. And i believe the word I used was sissy, you're a big sissy. Here's an idea majid, pack up your bolt kit and head to Indian Creek, see what kind of reception you recieve.

The auto word filter turns the P-word into the S-word in all quotes, even if you have yours tuned as low as it goes. Even though you're seeing the S-word, they both likely wrote the P-word.

My panties are in a bunch. If youd allow some bolted crack climbs whats gonna stop more and more bolts, and people over the years forget how to trad, destroying whats makes the climbing experience important.
Every climber is obligated to chop'em and put the hangers to better use elsewhere.

Let the insults begin.

I but a users of what ever are we are in we have the shared responsibility of minimizing impact on the area and following a leave no trace ethic.

Bolting cracks unnecessarily increases impact on an area and as a result can make our sport more visible to non climber who may think that we are abusing our privilege to develop an area.

Same line of thought on chalk, what is stopping so many people from using a chalk ball and colored chalk to blend in with the rock? So what if it works slightly less well for super sweaty fingers, it still works.

Another person of more words than experience - seems to be about par for the course in this thread.

I didn't tell him what it's about -

I said he's clearly displaying he has no idea what it's about.

Now it's looking like the mechanics are about the extent of your grasp as well.

If it's really about the rock, you can lay your fears to rest. Bolting a rock doesn't destroy it. I love how people try and push this off as being a conservation issue.

Why don't you just man up and say you don't want it to happen because you don't want people sport climbing your trad routes?

Why don't you just man up and say you don't want it to happen because you don't want people sport climbing your trad routes?

It does affect the rock. It's not like you have sticky bolt-hangers with 3M easy-remove adhesive. You actually drill into the rock.

On a more relavent path, the major reason "to bolt or not to blot" ever became an issue is that, early in days of climbing, some parks threatened to close down parks because of all the rock scaring that was occuring with pitons. Chocks and hexes replaced pitons and proved to be less damaging and park officials became more accepting of climbers. Over time people moved away from crack to the unexplored face routes which required bolting. Those who first started using bolts still had the same mindset--don't affect the rock by over-bolting. If people haphazardly bolted, you'd have the same issue piton scarring caused--loss of access.

It's not a stupid mindset, you just need to keep the balance. You also have to take into consideration that your feelings are only one vote in the matter. When it comes to bolted routes, climbers depend on cooperation from each other. We all have to trust what's being placed, don't we? Should we let any new 16 year old with a drill start setting up routes? (Nothing against 16-year-old climbers, I was once one too!) Without cooperation, bolts become less safe, climbers fight, park rangers get sick of us and parks close down.

If I bolt a crack, (1) I should expect to take some crap because many people won't approve and (2) I should expect that park officials are watching. Why not rather think about other people than just ourselves? Maybe there's something to being considerate or maybe I'm just getting old.

GT

If sport climbers don't have any problem bolting and sport climbing trad routes, then it's only fair that they shouldn't have any problem if mixed climbers climb their sport routes on dry tools with pre-placed draws, and then re-rate the climb with an M grade.

I for one believe it is virtually impossible to develop a climbing area with LNT principles.

This is going to be one of the most popular sport climbs in SoCal.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=76392

I don't mind buying gear a single bit, but do I think it should be necessary to force people who want to learn new climbing skills/moves to buy trad gear, I don't think so.

It does affect the rock. It's not like you have sticky bolt-hangers with 3M easy-remove adhesive. You actually drill into the rock.

On a more relavent path, the major reason "to bolt or not to blot" ever became an issue is that, early in days of climbing, some parks threatened to close down parks because of all the rock scaring that was occuring with pitons. Chocks and hexes replaced pitons and proved to be less damaging and park officials became more accepting of climbers. Over time people moved away from crack to the unexplored face routes which required bolting. Those who first started using bolts still had the same mindset--don't affect the rock by over-bolting. If people haphazardly bolted, you'd have the same issue piton scarring caused--loss of access.

It's not a stupid mindset, you just need to keep the balance. You also have to take into consideration that your feelings are only one vote in the matter. When it comes to bolted routes, climbers depend on cooperation from each other. We all have to trust what's being placed, don't we? Should we let any new 16 year old with a drill start setting up routes? (Nothing against 16-year-old climbers, I was once one too!) Without cooperation, bolts become less safe, climbers fight, park rangers get sick of us and parks close down.

If I bolt a crack, (1) I should expect to take some crap because many people won't approve and (2) I should expect that park officials are watching. Why not rather think about other people than just ourselves? Maybe there's something to being considerate or maybe I'm just getting old.

GT

"There is nothing wrong with bolting cracks. It let's those folks who are afraid of trad to lead the crack".

I actually over-heard that at Jack's Canyon; I almost pissed myself.

Your thoughts?

Jefro

Because anybody who doesn't share your viewpoint must be a noob.

No, actually it's because neither you nor him have much in the way of experience and you've now reached the point of simply making noise when you start saying nothing beyond the objective use of pro is arguable - clueless - regardless of how many words you use or how many times you say it. Again, neither one of you have any idea what you're talking about and it's becoming more obvious with every post you make...

You have no basis to judge anybody's experience. And obviously you're a little too obtouse to grasp the concept of objectivity.

I've tried to explain it to you, but you're far too simple minded to understand. Trying to help you do so is obviously a bootless errand.

There is absolutely no ethical issue---no moral component whatsoever. We're talking about a small piece of metal in a rock, not the H-bomb.

There is absolutely no ethical issue---no moral component whatsoever. We're talking about a small piece of metal in a rock, not the H-bomb.

Wait a minute... There is a place I can go that provides all of this. It's called a gym! Perfect place for those who think the world revolves around their convenience.

It's entirely an ethical issure, you're just simply implying no one has ethics anymore or that the tide has turned so far they are irrelavant - I disagree completely.

It's simple - if it were in my locale it would get chopped and epoxied in a heartbeat and the photo looks like a good argument for travelling with a breaker bar just in case.

There is nothing inherently wrong with placing a bolt next to a crack in a rock.

imposing your religious beliefs -- let's call them what they are -- on others by going to their climbing area and chopping their bolts would be wrong.

Bolt a crack like the one in the photo or anything remotely like it and chopping is fair game any time, any place.

Now, for the third time, I offer you the challenge of explaining why it is unethical to place a bolt by a crack.

And I'll respond again that your very own logic dictates that there is clearly no problem whatsoever with removing them...

FoWR urges all climbers to recognize and to limit the impacts of their climbing practices on the environment, other climbers, land managers, and other users.

Given your suppor of FoWR and this is what they are about I suppose you find no ethical roots involved with this statement either. I would say somewhere between your signature and your posts you get deeply lost in the hypocrisy. And again, by your own logic there would be nothing whatsoever wrong with chipping or bolting on holds either...

the reasons why the crack in that picture was bolted

It's not about my "belief" in your logic - your logic is clearly self-evident in your posts. And that logic is there is no ethics associated with bolting. If there is no ethics associated with one of the objective mechanics of rock climbing then there are clearly no ethics associated with any of them by any logical paradigm I can think of. So if there are no ethics associated with bolting, then there is clearly none with de-bolting, chipping or bolting on holds.

Are we talking about "a bolt next to a crack" now, Jay? Jay, how many bolts were placed next to the that crack? If it's a rap anchor then I'll concede here and now.

If the bolts are meant to replace clean protection placed on lead, then


are little more than a desire to not place clean protection. Pay attention to the word clean here. As in avoiding, to fullest possible extent, permanent effect on the rock. That is the ethic.

That picture has to be a joke. Please tell me it's a joke.

In what sense do you mean "joke?" It is clear what the pic is: a guy who needs a haircut rap bolting a splitter hand crack.

So, what if the bolts result in less permanent effect on the rock than, say, cams would; then, the bolts would be within the ethic, would they not?

The only way a cam could possibly create more impact than a bolt is if the cam was incorrectly placed and became jammed--fixed.

Still evading the question.

Well if the crack is perfectly protectable, the bolt shouldn't be there.

If the crack is not protectable, and is part of what looks like a giant loose death flake which seems to be integral to getting up said route, the route shouldn't be there.

I'm not the one claiming there are no ethics associated with bolting - you are. It's a patently ignorant assertion that doesn't require an answer, only examples from your own "logic" that show how stupid the assertion is...

Its proximity to a large population center guarantees, if the crack were left unbolted, that some n00b would evenutally walk up to the base, pull a shiny new set of Camalots out of an REI shopping bag, head up the route, an easy hand crack, for his first "trad" lead, and take a fall that would likely kill at least him and his belayer. Jay

Its proximity to a large population center guarantees, if the crack were left unbolted, that some n00b would evenutally walk up to the base, pull a shiny new set of Camalots out of an REI shopping bag, head up the route, an easy hand crack, for his first "trad" lead, and take a fall that would likely kill at least him and his belayer.

Obviously I can't comment on the nature of a route based on a single photo, but wouldn't putting a bolted line there be even worse? If it can't take the gear it appears to take, it just can't be that stable. The bolts are a neon sign to climb something you say is tenuous, and if it's easy, you know there's going to be some serious prying going on.

Not to mention the fact that people need to learn to judge what loose rock is, and what protection will hold and what will not.

"there is nothing inherently wrong with placing a bolt next to a crack in a rock."

Which is exactly equivalent to saying there are no ethics associated with bolting...

I didn't say that there were no ethics associated with bolting; that was Fracture.

How about reinforcing it ?

It took Jay 7 pages to finally give an actual reason for bolting that crack. If it's as bad as you say it is, it's probably justified.

And you're telling healyej that he's not answering your questions.

You sit here and make broad statements about ethics and how everything you do is right. The truth is that this is a rare exception that you blew to the maximum proportion sanity would allow. If I didn't know of your affinity to argueing (regardless of if you know you are wrong or not) I'd say you are strongly in favor of bolting all cracks. I don't think you are, you're just playing devils advocate.

Think before you post, think of who you could influence to commit a thoughtless bolting act because mr jt seemed to think it was ok.

So I take it that a flake that loose could have been cleaned? (Not that cleaning routes is low-impact either, but every new route gets cleaned.) Or is it a necessary feature to climb the route?

If it's not loose enough to be tossed, what evidence do you have that a cam will blow it out, besides just a bad feeling about it?

It could be cleaned. I don't know what it would leave, maybe a 5.12 dihedral.

Most rational climbers, if they knew the reasons why the crack in that picture was bolted, would probably agree that bolting was the best course of action. I'm tempted to explain the reasons to you, but I suspect that your religious ferver would blind you. You know, even the most fanatical religious believers usually agree that there are exceptions to some of the basic tenets of their religion: Thou Shall Not Kill, but sometimes it's okay in defense of others, for example. But from what I gather from your post history, you're worse, you won't allow even a single exception on the bolt issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to believe that no bolt should ever, under any circumstances, be placed by a crack, right?

Jay

Given your suppor of FoWR and this is what they are about I suppose you find no ethical roots involved with this statement either. I would say somewhere between your signature and your posts you get deeply lost in the hypocrisy. And again, by your own logic there would be nothing whatsoever wrong with chipping or bolting on holds either...

Which is exactly equivalent to saying there are no ethics associated with bolting...