- I'll add: Don't be afraid to question him/her and don't assume everything they do is safe. One of my mentors was very appreciative that I didn't blindly accept their way of doing things and I always appreciate my partners checking me and/or asking about something.

In another thread, it came up that it can be hard to find a mentor for trad climbing. My strategy for getting and keeping mentors has been to try to be the best follower I can be...

Long story short, I learned that being the newb doesn't mean it's okay to stand around looking confused. Don't know what you can do to help?
ASK. Your trad mentor will be more than happy to get you involved.

22. Be a great leader...or at least care about becoming a great leader as much as you care about being a great follower.

-IF you have to cancel on a trip, DO NOT DO SO AT THE LAST MINUTE!!!!! Give them enough notice to find another partner for that day. Often times a mentor will forgo the chance to do a route on their ticklist because they have already made plans with you... they passed this chance so that they could teach YOU the finer points. (This is something that will help you keep good partners around. Blow it and you'll get a reputation as being a wanker)
-DO NOT BE A WANKER to your mentor.
The last two are particular pet peeves of mine.

Here you go-- Mentor Available. This is the story. I'm a Red Rock old-timer coming back from a shoulder injury. I've got to work my way back through the easy stuff. Anybody in Las Vegas looking to jump in, shoot me a PM.

Larry

In case you folks don't realize it - this represents an "opportunity of a lifetime". I'd go so far as to say if you wanted to learn to climb trad better and have the time to kill I'd get to LV and just make myself available anytime Larry's got the time...

I've got to second this comment. Also, unless the mentor is trying to take you up a big wall or something else not for your level of climbing, don't puss out because you have not been higher than the indoor gym wall's height.
As the trip is planned, research the climb and area, ask yourself if this is really something you really want to do, before you commit to the leader. It is OK to be scared on multipitch but do everything possible to mentally prepare yourself to not freeze up at the exposure.
This has happened to me too many times. I have found myself staring at the rock the rest of the weekend cursing that I cannot find another partner. It has usually happened when I went with some aspiring trad climber who has a mostly gym background. Now I am VERY aprehensive before setting off for a weekend climbing trip with someone I met solely in the gym. To set things straight, I don't take them up the hardest thing I can climb. I start them off on 5.3s or something.

That's a damn good one! First time on Seneca was my first time on a multipitch climb. I definitely had the pucker factor going. By the 2nd pitch I was ready to bag it because my ass was cramping from all the puckering going on. There was no way I was letting the leader down though and I hiked up my skirt and pushed on. After we rapped back down I was so glad I didn't punk out.

i saw this subject line and thought, 'what a great idea for a post!'

That should've been your first clue that the majority of content within the thread was going to cause you to get your panties in a twist :wink:

what panties?

and whose side are you on, the constipateds or the good guys?

i after i read the 10,000 rules and had to reconsider whether i'm hot enough for you f*ers or would talk too much i thought, "thank GOD i'm learning trad WITH somebody and not FROM somebody." i'm happy to pay for an occasional lesson so long as i can be myself at the crag instead of obeying all your stupid rules.

Actually, that's a reasonable way to learn as well even if a bit longer, though I'd skip the paying part. I personally wouldn't care how good you looked if you were talking constantly - the human A.M. radio thing is one of the few I just can't handle and make no apologies about it. As for the rest, those were "ideal" prereqs and in no way rules. And I personally find the whole "must know how to belay" thing a bit unhinged to be frank- it wasn't and wouldn't be on my list because if you can't belay you shouldn't be trad climbing period - you should be learning to belay and that's a different deal all together. His take on belaying isn't wrong - it's just a odd thing to focus on in this context in my opinion...

I personally wouldn't care how good you looked if you were talking constantly - the human A.M. radio thing is one of the few I just can't handle and make no apologies for it.

i read the 10,000 rules and had to reconsider whether i'm hot enough for you f*ers

...and the thread goes to s---. oh well. lets see if it can be saved. Perhaps ter-bee should start again from the beginning, as it's better to learn FROM someone than WITH someone.

suggestions, all of it, on how to attract a trad mentor.
...what I think healyje meant..
Now here's why:

First of all, to post you should BE or HAVE BEEN a TRAD MENTOR to someone, 'cause if not your opinion just sounds like some whiny little b---- complaining about how mis-understood they are and why won't someone take you under their wing and show you what they know and you wish you knew, doesn't it?

It is an apprenticeship, and in most apprenticeships the new-guy gets a ration of s---. In fact, if you're not getting a ration of s---, perhaps you should ask "Why", cause as mentioned above, the s--- only comes if they like your potential (and can deal with who you are today).

Mentors dish s--- because they wish to understand how you will handle yourself under pressure, and when they do give it they WANT you to come out the other side successfully(Do you think it's easy to find competent potential-partners?). If you come up short in the many small non-life-threatening tests dealt to you, do you think someone will want you around when their life is on the line?

This process serves to wash out those who aren't really serious about learning this new skill, and can't hang with all the s--- aspects of whatever is is they're trying to learn. It also proves a sense of humor in the pupil, which can mean the difference between dealing with a bad situation elegantly, and many other possible horrible outcomes.

It doesn't matter if you're talking about climbing or under-water-basket-weaving, the principle is the same. I MUST know that I can RELY on you in any situation, but it's up to me to make sure that I can before I may let us dance to that music (and what a wonderful tune it is).

So suck it up, you whiny little b----, :P else you're stuck wondering why you have to pay someone to hang out with you. If you insist on remaining who you are and refuse to grow into something more, why should I waste my time with you?

had to reconsider whether i'm hot enough

what panties?

To those who said you can attract a mentor by being a girl and / or hot, that's so wrong...... I am a girl and sometimes hot, but my experience is that no leader worth his salt gives a s--- about that.

...

Mentors dish s--- because they wish to understand how you will handle yourself under pressure,...

To those who said you can attract a mentor by being a girl and / or hot, that's so wrong. Sure, you're kidding, okay, but I wouldn't want any of the guys out there to think it's true.

Since we pay for everything one way or the other, people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.
2. No one else will climb with them.
3. You have such great potential that you hardly need mentoring to be their equal partner.

Of course experienced people will go climb w/ their less experienced friends from time to time, but for the most part more experienced climbers want to go do their more experienced kind of climbing unless one of the above situations applies.

And for many of us, having tits just wasn't a realistic option!

Sigh...sad but true for me too. :cry:

people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.

people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.

not exactly.

it's like this, i have half a dozen hard bros with whom i climb who can fiddle in tiny nuts on run-out 5.11. but at the end of the day, around the campfire, or at the hot springs, these guys can be a bit............well, you know, crusty. and the forced bivy is a whole other story.

Both of my "mentors" are highly skilled (one is certified as a guide and one works SAR) and they both like to lead 5.9 and under, which is just perfect for me to follow them and learn.

The things is...whether you agree that it's the way it should be or not...it's the truest rule on the list.

Since we pay for everything one way or the other, people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.
2. No one else will climb with them.
3. You have such great potential that you hardly need mentoring to be their equal partner.

Most folks who are in the "I want to be the best follower that I can be so someone will take me climbing and show me stuff camp" are going to be attracting ongoing regular partners for reasons 1. or 2. If you're in camp 3, then how good of a follower you are is going to be a small part of the big picture pretty quickly.

Of course experienced people will go climb w/ their less experienced friends from time to time, but for the most part more experienced climbers want to go do their more experienced kind of climbing unless one of the above situations applies.

Hmmmm, I think "wow" is my first response to all that. Now, I've clearly been guilty of #3 over the years. But the others and the whole tone of this is way, way off base from anything in my experience or that of my fellow old school partners. Maybe its a Cali-culture deal as well or maybe times have changed and spawning predators is just another spinoff of the commercialization of climbing with gyms making fertile ground for them.

I've never once thought twice about a partner's sex as either peers or someone I'm helping out to learn trad. And I've been roped soloing extensively for thirty years and like climbing alone half the time. Getting up a route that's a challenge for you, getting hurt badly, or dying on a rock are all pretty sexless affairs from my experience. And while I was as likely as the next person to get after a woman I thought was hot (been married to the last one for twelve years) - that has nothing whatsoever to do with climbing - at least in my book.

Sorry you and others have had such unfortunate experiences and even sadder if times have changed and this is actually as rampant as some of you portray...

P.S. And I have to second Larry's comment on the giving learners sh#t - it's not my style - I try to be as supportive as humanly possible while still being clear as a razor about what I believe is required and appropriate at any given moment.

I've never once thought twice about a partner's sex as either peers or someone I'm helping out to learn trad. And I've been roped soloing extensively for thirty years and like climbing alone half the time. Getting up a route that's a challenge for you, getting hurt badly, or dying on a rock are all pretty sexless affairs from my experience.

...
And I am sure a number of you will take issue with this, but you have to ask yourself WHAT IS IN IT FOR THE MORE EXPERIENCED CLIMBER. Because don't kid yourself, you are getting something out of it. ...

How about: You love climbing and enjoy sharing it with an enthusiastic newcomer.

...

Do you really take a beginner up a route that's challenging for you? Of course not. If you do, you're asking for trouble.

And I am sure a number of you will take issue with this, but you have to ask yourself WHAT IS IN IT FOR THE MORE EXPERIENCED CLIMBER. Because don't kid yourself, you are getting something out of it.

Is it a dating interest? Are you friends? Are you fun to hang out with? Are you paying them?

Why would I spend my limited free time teaching someone to climb? Because they are my friend, or I would like to be friends with them. I'm not really into unpaid guiding.

And I also think it's a little silly to call someone interested in dating another climber a predator. Oh come on. If you're actually serious about climbing a lot, you might just find that it is difficult to maintain a relationship with a non-climber. It is perfectly natural to want to have BOTH. which is best served by dating a climber.

Leezerdgirl, I seem to recall that your profile said for a while that you were interested in dating a climber. so why all the suprise?

...

What do you bring to the partnership? Because you are getting something in return, and most people aren't interested in unpaid guiding.

Becoming a leader is a state of mind! Most of the hard work that makes you a true leader happens on your own. It happens on the sharp end when no-one's there to spoon feed you advice!

Becoming a true lead climber only has a bit to do with knowing how to place good gear and keep the fear in check. It has everything to do with taking control of your destiny. You want to start down the road to being a true trad leader? Don't look for a guide to show you the way, show some initiative, do your homework!

Blithely following your Mentor around saying "please sir, may I have s'more?" will never make you a leader.

Of course, nobody likes a know-it-all with more booksmarts than real exeriental knowledge, so keep it real, and keep your ego in check, but having the attitude that drives you to do all of the above will make you a true leader far more than the other guy who's led five times as many pitches, but they were all spoon-fed him, and most of them were either practiced on toprope first or just mock-led.

I believe that true mentors do not teach - if you're really a leader, you teach yourself with their help. True mentors provide inspiration, culture, ethical guidance, and a historical perspective.

My point was that a climbing partnership / mentor relationship won't last if the leader's desire to do The Deed, as you call it, is the only glue and the follower only has hotness to offer.

Couple things.

I can't take credit for the term, 'The Deed.' I ripped it off from Largo because I am immature and it made me snicker.

2nd, who says the relationship has to last? Not my style, but I see it happen all the time... consensually by both.

First, I never meant to imply that the great and wonderful scary larry deanglo wasn't psyched. I know you like to hold his balls for him and tell the rest of us how great he is. My post referred to the different enthusiasm of the beginner.

Maybe they can find a real charitable soul to teach them. Someone who doesn't like to talk while they climb, and rope solos a lot. sounds like a real fun guy.

I'll stick to climbing with my friends, thanks.

Being a hot female is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for cultivating a partnership with someone you can learn from.

I wanted to say something about the really good point on being clear / honest about your abilities and speed. I've definitely had experiences where I didn't talk with my new partner in advance about speed in particular and ended up feeling bad for holding them back.

I also think it's really easy to have misunderstandings about this stuff even when you're trying to be honest, so it's important to talk about it in enough detail that you know you're on the same page. For example, I told one new partner I was comfortable following up to 5.9. To me, that meant I could promise I'd be able to get up anything 5.9 or under, but that was my limit and I might not be able to get up anything harder. To her, "comfortable up to 5.9" meant that 5.9 was not terribly challenging for me, and that I could do things in the 5.10 or maybe 5.11 range with a little more effort.

Also, it's worth noting for the umpteenth time that gym climbing and outdoor climbing scales do not equate, so someone new to outdoor climbing should be very explicit if they're talking about grades they've done in the gym. It reminds me of a scene in a movie where the guy says "I've logged 2000 hours of flight time" and takes over flying a plane without ever mentioning that's flight time on a Playstation simulator. And then he doesn't know how to work the brakes because he never had to do that on the Playstation. Yeah. Gym climbing is like that.

I've never really tried this pedagogical technique myself, but I understand it was very popular with the Marines.

1: I enjoy sharing with others the knowledge of a skill-set which brings me much satisfaction in life, especially if the other has a genuine desire to learn.

Since we pay for everything one way or the other, people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.
2. No one else will climb with them.
3. You have such great potential that you hardly need mentoring to be their equal partner.

the kind of s--- I'm talking about is more like harmless fun, designed to test the boundaries of someone's sense of humor.

Kind of like the trucker who was pulled over for driving a little fast down the Nevada highway. When the officer approached, he wanted to see the usual documents, plus a cargo manifest.
The driver replies "I've got no manifest"
"No Manifest! That's illegal... what are you hauling?" inquired the trooper.
"Balloon fuel" says the trucker.
"Well, we're gonna have us a look at your load. Come on back and open the doors," demanded the officer.

So the trucker went back and opened the doors. When the officer saw the load he was carrying, he returned the paperwork to the driver and sent him on his way without writing a ticket.

What was in the trailer?

Since we pay for everything one way or the other, people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.
2. No one else will climb with them.
3. You have such great potential that you hardly need mentoring to be their equal partner.

I'd like to add one more reason that people "mentor"– they feel it necessary to surround themselves with "lesser" climbers in order to reinforce their own self-supposed radness.

Pretty twisted view of what it's all about and if that were the view of someone I was teaching it would be over before it started.

No spoons around here, no TRing, and most of all - never, and I mean never ever - mock lead. You get out and second and you get out and lead - a good mentor will be pushing you constantly just at the edge and often beyond your comfort zone at all times.

You could largely have started and ended your post with this paragraph as it is the very best of what you had to say as far as I'm concerned...

How about: You love climbing and enjoy sharing it with an enthusiastic newcomer.

How about: You love climbing and enjoy sharing it with an enthusiastic newcomer.

And I am sure a number of you will take issue with this, but you have to ask yourself WHAT IS IN IT FOR THE MORE EXPERIENCED CLIMBER.

Besides, every now and then it's nice if someone actually falls seconding my pitch, and only a complete noob seems capable of that....

Since we pay for everything one way or the other, people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.
2. No one else will climb with them.
3. You have such great potential that you hardly need mentoring to be their equal partner.

^^^^^^^^He is right^^^^^^^^^^

My advice for attracting a trad mentor is to say YES when asked if you can go climbing. I'm constantly having people say they want to go to the Gunks or learn to lead trad, but when I say great, I need a partner this weekend, they "can't." When I was new, if I was asked to go climbing, I said yes. If I had a prior committment, I figured out a way to deal with it, and I learned not to make non-climbing committments, at least not without a climbing contingency (You want me to be in your wedding? Let me just check the weather.)

Now, if you're looking for a trad mentor and you're willing to climb at the Gunks EVERY WEEKEND, no "family" crap three weekends out of four, send me an IM.

We've climbed together every weekend for a few weeks.

Sounds like everyone is in good health! Good for you! :D

I'd give you a trophy if I had a rate button today.