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bigfatrock
Apr 12, 2007, 8:34 PM
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Hey guys, last weekend I had my first "trad" experience. I didn't lead but cleaned on a route and saw how gear was placed. I also recently saw a video on Masters of Stone of a guy taking a nasty whipper and 4 or 5 pieces of pro pop out on his fall, luckily he was high enough up the route that he had a piece to catch him. I have seen a few other videos similar to this as well.
Does gear pop out that often? How easy is it to get it wrong? It seems fairly easy if experience climbers have numerous pieces coming out on a fall. Does it happen that often? If so why risk it? I know sport has its risks as well, but I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose. Just kind of curious as to what drives you to it?
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jgailor
Apr 12, 2007, 8:36 PM
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Here's the easy answer:
Not all routes are bolted!
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alx
Apr 12, 2007, 8:41 PM
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..the same reason we climb instead of taking the stairs. We like to.
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stevej
Apr 12, 2007, 8:44 PM
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Some people have been climbing for 20-odd years and are still struggling on 5.10a. They will usually describe themselves as "trad" climbers and belittle sport climbers saying they have either no balls, or lack the understanding of the true spirit of climbing. Can't you see how attractive that is? Groveling up dusty slabby cracks for decades is what real climbers do.
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vegastradguy
Apr 12, 2007, 8:46 PM
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bigfatrock wrote: I also recently saw a video on Masters of Stone of a guy taking a nasty whipper and 4 or 5 pieces of pro pop out on his fall, luckily he was high enough up the route that he had a piece to catch him. I have seen a few other videos similar to this as well.
that was staged, and the pro didnt pop, the slings had been cut most of the way through and blew- the gear held.
In reply to: Does gear pop out that often?
no.
In reply to: How easy is it to get it wrong?
like anything else, time and rate are needed to become proficient.
In reply to: It seems fairly easy if experience climbers have numerous pieces coming out on a fall. Does it happen that often?
multiple failure of trad pro is very rare- the only one i can think of in recent memory is that whip that guy took on Ruby's Cafe at the creek, and he was putting in cams too small for the crack. operator error.
In reply to: I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose.
really? i dont. who placed the bolt? did they know what they were doing? did they use a good bolt? do you know what a good bolt looks like? what good bolts are rated for? bolts have their place, but they are not the ultimate pro.
a properly placed cam or nut in good rock that is slung appropriately (this prevents gear from walking or coming out) is as good as any bolt will ever be.
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kman
Apr 12, 2007, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: If so why risk it? I know sport has its risks as well, but I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose
Why climb at all? If you want it to be completely safe then stay in the gym. You have obviously not yet run across old school manky bolts muahahaha
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deschamps1000
Apr 12, 2007, 9:09 PM
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Bigfatrock-
In responce to your questions...
Well-placed gear will always hold. It does take a few years to learn how to place good gear. That's why you really don't want to push the grades until you feel confident about your gear.
Trad is appealing to people for a number of reasons.
1. The techniques used when climbing cracks are different than sport-climbing techniques. I personally enjoy the movements and techniques in crack climbing.
2. A climbing route does not need to be "pre-equipped" when climbing trad. You can walk up to a rock with nothing on it, climb it, and leave without leaving anything behind. It does not alter the rock.
3. Trad climbing tends to be more mental and involved because of the need to place gear. This can add to the "depth" of a climbing experience.
4. All of the big mountain climbs are trad climbs. Thus, learning how to trad climb opens a lot of doors in the alping climbing arena.
Hope this helps clarify things.
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knieveltech
Apr 12, 2007, 9:11 PM
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I've never climbed trad but after skimming a few chapters in Freedom of the Hills and spending a month or so reading posts on here I feel like I can offer an expert opinion here. Simply put people climb trad because it's hard to haul a 12-pack up 5.xx, and sport crags are usually crowded, which means people trying to scam your beer. 
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ihategrigris
Apr 12, 2007, 9:17 PM
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bigfatrock wrote: Does gear pop out that often?
bigfatrock wrote: How easy is it to get it wrong?
bigfatrock wrote: It seems fairly easy if experience climbers have numerous pieces coming out on a fall. Does it happen that often?
No
bigfatrock wrote: If so why risk it? I know sport has its risks as well, but I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose. Just kind of curious as to what drives you to it?
If you have to ask, you won't comprehend the answer anyway.
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leapinlizard
Apr 12, 2007, 9:25 PM
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Why trad? Traditional climbing is true to life. Most sport routes are placed by someone hanging on rappel. Trad climbing is a way up the wall, where as sport climbing is exactly that a sport, just like football and car racing. Trad climbing is for the pure of heart, those that strive to adventure there way up the rock, not just follow the map. Don't get me wrong I think sport climbing is fun, in fact I do it alot, but I use sport climbing as a tool to make me a better climber, one who may venture into the unknown and up rocks on mountains never seen before, where there are no bolts and where there are no guidebooks. Just my two cents.
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bigfatrock
Apr 12, 2007, 9:50 PM
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Wow, didn't really even expect to get this many replies. Thanks to all those who answered. I had no idea the Masters of Stone fall was staged. I don't recall it saying that. In my narrow mind of sport climbing I had forgotten trad was the original form of climbing. Had actually talked about it with some friends, but it never really registered.
I have to admit I got pretty excited about getting to clean a route though. It was an interesting learning experience. Because of my skill level at the moment I don't think I would feel that comfortable leading trad yet, plus I have not had much experience climbing cracks. I flashed a 5.8 crack for the first time on the trip on TR. I struggled on 5.7 cracks the last time I went out. My sense of adventure might eventually drive me there, but as of now I haven't taken enough whippers to be super confident on the rock.
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oldsalt
Apr 12, 2007, 10:07 PM
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From a recent convert to climbing on gear (Trad).
I am attracted to it for several reasons...
1. I want to be able to climb any place I see that looks fun and within my limits.
2. I like the pure concept of leaving no trace.
3. I like the mental chess aspect of reading rock, analyzing my rack, and then protecting myself.
4. I am older, slower, increasingly arthritic, and I will probably never lead sport above 5.9 if I get that far. I find great satisfaction from lower grades of trad. A 5.6 gear climb is more soul satisfying to me than a 5.6 sport climb.
It's all in what floats your boat. If I was 40 years younger and running around with my hair on fire, I might be pushing grades instead of cams. 40 years ago, I was riding 10-15' waves on the North Shore. The mental challenge was designing and building the board that I was riding.
It's all good.
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hibby11
Apr 12, 2007, 10:12 PM
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Two reasons: Adventure & Creativity
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mandrake
Apr 12, 2007, 10:32 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: In reply to: I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose. really? i dont. who placed the bolt? did they know what they were doing? did they use a good bolt? do you know what a good bolt looks like? what good bolts are rated for? bolts have their place, but they are not the ultimate pro. a properly placed cam or nut in good rock that is slung appropriately (this prevents gear from walking or coming out) is as good as any bolt will ever be.
Plus the other thing about bolted lines is that no one other than the FA has a choice of where the bolts go! How many sport climbs have you approached the second (or third!) bolt and thought, "if I blow this clip I'm gonna deck fer sure." On a nice crack you can (mostly) choose how yer gonna protect it, so that the gear's close enough to keep you off the deck and more spaced out when all you'll hit is air.
Of course, you have to focus on the gear. It don't place itself. Screw that up, and you're done. Get good gear and you're fine, though. And this is on top of the actual climbing moves, so that's why most people don't trad climb as hard as they sport.
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ja1484
Apr 12, 2007, 11:21 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: bigfatrock wrote: I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose. really? i dont. who placed the bolt? did they know what they were doing? did they use a good bolt? do you know what a good bolt looks like? what good bolts are rated for? bolts have their place, but they are not the ultimate pro.
No kidding. Anyone who thinks bolts are the end-all be-all of protection has never had to hand-tighten a thread head at a hanging belay.
Kids these days...
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xjlx
Apr 12, 2007, 11:24 PM
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Had my first trad experiences this weekend. Seconded a couple of "iowa multipitch" climbs. Also did my first lead on some unknown 5.3.
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kane_schutzman
Apr 12, 2007, 11:29 PM
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Buy 100 cams-Look like a badass
Buy 100 draws-Look like an idiot with 100 draws.
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grippedclimer
Apr 12, 2007, 11:45 PM
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Dude, Trad sucks. Way too Dangerous man. Stick to the boulerrs and such man. I had the same problem when I started climbing and then swithced to builering one story houses. Bolts are way bomber.
(This post was edited by grippedclimer on Apr 12, 2007, 11:45 PM)
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notapplicable
Apr 13, 2007, 12:42 AM
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Because its a beautiful, beautiful thing.
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timm
Apr 13, 2007, 2:01 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: In reply to: I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose. really? i dont. who placed the bolt? did they know what they were doing? did they use a good bolt? do you know what a good bolt looks like? what good bolts are rated for? bolts have their place, but they are not the ultimate pro.
This is a great point vegastradguy.
To further underscore this, I once played a great game with one of my AMGA instructors. He had a bag of bolts. Some were new and some were bolts that he had cleaned off routes doing bolt maintenance. He would show the hanger and the head of the bolt and keep the length of the bolt hidden in his hand. We had to guess the type of bolt, it's length, it's condition, and ultimately whether we would trust it. With the exception of the new Fixe and Petzl bolts we faired badly guessing the ultimate quality and strength of the bolt.
The most stunning example of blindly trusting bolts by sight alone was a newer Metolious hanger with what looked like the head of a 3/8" Rawl 5-piece bolt. Hidden in his hand was not the expected Rawl 5-piece but but a 3/8" hardware store machine bolt that was about an 1" long placed as a rivet thru the hanger. Supposedly, he found two of these as the sole belay anchor on some El Cap route when he was doing anchor replacement. The damn thing looked just like something you see at almost any sport climbing area in the US but an 1" long rivet isn't going to hold more than a few hundred pounds at best. How it ever held a couple of climbers plus the force of hauling, etc. was beyond our comprehension.
This forever changed how I view and trust bolts.
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dingus
Apr 13, 2007, 2:03 AM
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stevej wrote: Some people have been climbing for 20-odd years and are still struggling on 5.10a. They will usually describe themselves as "trad" climbers and belittle sport climbers saying they have either no balls, or lack the understanding of the true spirit of climbing. Can't you see how attractive that is? Groveling up dusty slabby cracks for decades is what real climbers do.
Nice troll. You left out sexual orientation ya fag.
DMT
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medicus
Apr 13, 2007, 2:18 AM
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kane_schutzman wrote: Buy 100 cams-Look like a badass Buy 100 draws-Look like an idiot with 100 draws.
Lol... I'll refrain from commenting too much on this one 
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quietpartner
Apr 13, 2007, 7:23 AM
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Why trad? It gets you in touch with your inner engineer, the one behind your navel.
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xjlx
Apr 13, 2007, 2:31 PM
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ha ha .. no Iowa is limestone/dolomite to rotting dolomite ... not exactly everyone's idea of a trad climbing paradise. Surprisingly we have some walls approaching the 100ft range, maybe closer to 80-90ft. The bottom half of these taller walls is usually low angle, covered in veg/tree and mud. So the "multi" was more practice than anything else, although it also helped with rope drag.
As for the 5.3 that took my trad cherry, as I said earlier, Iowa doesn't see a lot of trad traffic, had been done, just not named as far as I or my partner knew.
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zealotnoob
Apr 13, 2007, 2:50 PM
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One facet of trad that facinates me is gear placement as a form of expression. Given an unmarred wall, you get to tell the tail of your reckoning. Are there badly placed pieces every two feet? ...a tail of wanting for confidence. Are there artfully placed pieces, efficiently placed? ...a work of ingenuity, or wisedom and experience. Are there huge runnouts? ...a tail of boldness, perhaps even hubris. A deeply personal undertaking.
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cchildre
Apr 13, 2007, 3:19 PM
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Leading a run out 5.8 on gear, is by far more exciting and satsifying than a 5.8 sport route, IMO. Someday I will be leading 10's on gear, and I know they will demand more than the bolted 10's I am on right now. I don't know if I will ever be working bolted 12's, but I would venture a guess that gear 10's will taste just as sweet. The great thing is, I appreciate all aspects of climbing no matter how protected, or unprotected it might be. When I started I said I would never touch gear, bolts was all I wanted. Then I tasted some trad and was hooked. So I was wrong, but I would never free solo anything, that's crazy. So here I sit fresh off my first free solo, like I said I never would. I am such a liar. ;)
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zealotnoob
Apr 13, 2007, 3:45 PM
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Hubris.
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granite_grrl
Apr 13, 2007, 3:49 PM
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Because to do the climbs that most inspire me I must lead on gear, multi pitch, finger cracks......mmmmmmm.
Some rock is worse and more dangerous than other types, certain routes are also more dangerous. Some has loose blocks, is very soft or just doesn't have places to place gear. But there is also bullet hard rock out there where you could get gear every 3 feet if you wanted to. Once you gain experiance you start to pick and choose. But yes, trad climbing can be dangerous, just do what you can accept.
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shockabuku
Apr 13, 2007, 3:54 PM
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Ethics and practicality aside - it's a different kind of experience. Love it or leave it.
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 3:55 PM
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zealotnoob wrote: One facet of trad that facinates me is gear placement as a form of expression. Given an unmarred wall, you get to tell the tail of your reckoning. Are there badly placed pieces every two feet? ...a tail of wanting for confidence. Are there artfully placed pieces, efficiently placed? ...a work of ingenuity, or wisedom and experience. Are there huge runnouts? ...a tail of boldness, perhaps even hubris. A deeply personal undertaking.
I think you're making an awfully big deal about putting nuts and cams in cracks.
Jay
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 3:59 PM
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cchildre wrote: Leading a run out 5.8 on gear, is by far more exciting and satsifying than a 5.8 sport route
"5.8 sport" is practically a contradiction. How about leading a run out 5.8 on gear vs climbing difficult and gymnastic 5.12.
Jay
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zealotnoob
Apr 13, 2007, 4:02 PM
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Agreed. Was there something else?
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wmfork
Apr 13, 2007, 4:22 PM
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Dude, boulders have hella more balls...
I was on a route last weekend and couldn't put a piece of pro in until 25-30 feet up (nothing harder than V2) and I almost pissed in my pants. But man. boulders routinely top out that high on a V-sick problem.
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begood77
Apr 13, 2007, 5:24 PM
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Pretty views.
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xjlx
Apr 13, 2007, 8:03 PM
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maybe the case, although I have seen quite a few of the lower grades in various guide books, and in the route db.
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m2j1s
Apr 13, 2007, 9:16 PM
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imagine a sport route where you could clip a bolt wherever and whenever you get sketched out. Many times trad climbing is like that, you can run out the easy parts and zip up the hard parts, it gives .some sweet piece of mind getting sketched out and popping in a cam above your head. thats not such an easy thing to do on a sport route however...
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kyote321
Apr 13, 2007, 9:30 PM
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because trad is the only real kind of climbing. sport climbers and boulders are only good because they are strong. if you aren't afraid, you aren't climbing.
driving a hummer at 120 = sport
riding a crotch rocket at 120 = trad
strong gym climbers are the true girly-men of the sport.
it is all about taking the risk of not living and climbing again another day. if you aren't living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.
be all you can be. be extremely extreme or go home.
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krosbakken
Apr 13, 2007, 10:37 PM
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bigfatrock wrote: I know sport has its risks as well, but I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose.
I defiantly don't trust a bolt over a cam. Like vegastradguy said you don't know who placed it and stuff like that. With a cam I know how many falls it has taken, how old it is, what the Kn is, ect.
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miavzero
Apr 13, 2007, 10:45 PM
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jt512 wrote: cchildre wrote: Leading a run out 5.8 on gear, is by far more exciting and satsifying than a 5.8 sport route "5.8 sport" is practically a contradiction. How about leading a run out 5.8 on gear vs climbing difficult and gymnastic 5.12. Jay
How about eating an apple vs eating an orange.
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miavzero
Apr 13, 2007, 11:11 PM
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keithlester wrote: xjlx wrote: As for the 5.3 that took my trad cherry, as I said earlier, Iowa doesn't see a lot of trad traffic, had been done, just not named as far as I or my partner knew. Nobody would bother to write up a 5.3, surely. Its little more than steep walking. 
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ja1484
Apr 13, 2007, 11:35 PM
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miavzero wrote: jt512 wrote: cchildre wrote: Leading a run out 5.8 on gear, is by far more exciting and satsifying than a 5.8 sport route "5.8 sport" is practically a contradiction. How about leading a run out 5.8 on gear vs climbing difficult and gymnastic 5.12. Jay How about eating an apple vs eating an orange.
Agreed. Comparing sport and trad is a bizarre exercise at best. They are largely different in so many aspects...
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caughtinside
Apr 14, 2007, 12:24 AM
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kyote321 wrote: be all you can be. be extremely extreme or go home.
hell yeah! that is one of the best mashed up multi-cliches I've ever seen!
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jt512
Apr 14, 2007, 12:48 AM
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miavzero wrote: jt512 wrote: cchildre wrote: Leading a run out 5.8 on gear, is by far more exciting and satsifying than a 5.8 sport route "5.8 sport" is practically a contradiction. How about leading a run out 5.8 on gear vs climbing difficult and gymnastic 5.12. Jay How about eating an apple vs eating an orange.
I prefer 5.12 sport and oranges.
That was tough.
Jay
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caughtinside
Apr 14, 2007, 3:06 AM
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jt512 wrote: miavzero wrote: jt512 wrote: cchildre wrote: Leading a run out 5.8 on gear, is by far more exciting and satsifying than a 5.8 sport route "5.8 sport" is practically a contradiction. How about leading a run out 5.8 on gear vs climbing difficult and gymnastic 5.12. Jay How about eating an apple vs eating an orange. I prefer 5.12 sport and oranges. That was tough. Jay
Interesting. I would have said that apples are more like sport climbing, because you don't have to fiddle around with a pesky peel to get to the goods.
Maybe you like all that widget pinching, and you just don't know it yet.
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leapinlizard
Apr 14, 2007, 4:07 AM
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I like sport climbing, it's just sometimes I like to feel like I actually accomplished something, and while I do get this feeling after topping out a hard sport route, the sense of accompliment is no where near as good as topping out on a trad climb. It connexts me more with nature.
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jt512
Apr 14, 2007, 4:45 AM
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leapinlizard wrote: I like sport climbing, it's just sometimes I like to feel like I actually accomplished something, and while I do get this feeling after topping out a hard sport route, the sense of accompliment is no where near as good as topping out on a trad climb. It connexts me more with nature.
If your goal is to "top out" then you shouldn't like sport climbing at all, since most sport climbs don't actually top out. On the other hand, if you are primarily interested in climbing movement, then it's hard not to prefer sport climbing.
Jay
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leapinlizard
Apr 14, 2007, 8:47 AM
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Are you saying that you never reach the top of a sport climb? I guess I had never looked at climbing like that. I guess I have always wanted to reach the anchors, so that I could say I climbed the route.
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reno
Apr 14, 2007, 1:48 PM
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jt512 wrote: On the other hand, if you are primarily interested in climbing movement, then it's hard not to prefer sport climbing.
One could make the same argument for top-rope climbing.
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dingus
Apr 14, 2007, 2:22 PM
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I like fruit salad. MMMMM.
DMT
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musicman1586
Apr 14, 2007, 3:38 PM
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leapinlizard wrote: Most sport routes are placed by someone hanging on rappel
Uh...I think this more depends on local ethic than the general practice, because I know for certain that many of the areas I've been to and around my area were all put up on lead. There's plenty of places where they've all been rap-bolted, but there's lots of places where everything went up on lead.
Anyways, to answer the OP, why trad? Because you have no limits, you can climb anywhere pretty much. You have the choice to do push your physical limits on single pitch climbs or push your mental limits on long multi-pitch climbs. Gear is plenty safe, I've seen plenty of footage of guys taking 40-60 foot falls on a run out route onto some pretty small gear, but the reality is that on a large number of routes you will have plenty of gear options and will likely not take a fall any longer than you would on a sport route. In truth alot of climbers I know place more gear when climbing than the number of bolts on a route of similar length. Gear is plenty safe, yes you do have to learn how to place it, but when placed properly it holds, bottom line.
Oh and yes, that long fall in MOS was staged, as stated before the slings were all cut through to enable him to take such a long (but controlled) fall.
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jt512
Apr 14, 2007, 5:05 PM
Post #58 of 78
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leapinlizard wrote: Are you saying that you never reach the top of a sport climb? I guess I had never looked at climbing like that. I guess I have always wanted to reach the anchors, so that I could say I climbed the route.
You hopefully reach the anchors on a sport route, you don't usually "top out." Topping out is when the climb up onto the top of the formation you are climbing. Most sport routes don't end that way. They end at anchors on the face of the route; thus you don't top out.
Jay
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jt512
Apr 14, 2007, 5:08 PM
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reno wrote: jt512 wrote: On the other hand, if you are primarily interested in climbing movement, then it's hard not to prefer sport climbing. One could make the same argument for top-rope climbing.
Yes.
Jay
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jt512
Apr 14, 2007, 5:12 PM
Post #60 of 78
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musicman1586 wrote: leapinlizard wrote: Most sport routes are placed by someone hanging on rappel Uh...I think this more depends on local ethic than the general practice, because I know for certain that many of the areas I've been to and around my area were all put up on lead. There's plenty of places where they've all been rap-bolted, but there's lots of places where everything went up on lead.
I think "went" is the operative word there. You don't see that much anymore. One objective of bolting a sport route is to locate the bolts in the best positions, which is much easier to do on rappel, often after rehearsing sections to figure out moves and clipping stances.
Jay
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alexmac
Apr 14, 2007, 7:31 PM
Post #61 of 78
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jgailor wrote: Here's the easy answer: Not all routes are bolted!
Trophy
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kyote321
Apr 15, 2007, 2:34 PM
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kyote321 wrote:
'be all you can be. be extremely extreme or go home.'
hell yeah! that is one of the best mashed up multi-cliches I've ever seen!
thanks man. the meat of it is, of course, 'extremely extreme' from the best funny films in years: "harold and kumar go to white castle'
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 15, 2007, 4:57 PM
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Why does it have to be a stupid fight??? We had just as much fun climbing prince of darkness as we did Dream of wild Turkeys and Triasic Sands. One trip we went to red Rocks and climbed mostly multi pitch trad then we cruised up to St george and climbed multi pitch sport then over to Zion for a trad spanking and then back to Vegas for some more trad. I prefer longer climbs that get to the top of things so that dictates that I usualy climb more trad. If there were a buch of long bolted climbs in my area I would climb them. Someday i want to go to potero chico And do those long sport climbs. If there is a crack to the top, climb it. If its face climbing with no gear then bolt the piss pout of it and then climb it What is the point in only doing one or the other and then trying to say one is better than the other??
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jaybro
Apr 23, 2007, 1:04 AM
Post #64 of 78
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It's a nightmare, stuff pops every pitch, stay away.
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rockguide
Apr 23, 2007, 1:35 AM
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bigfatrock wrote: Hey guys, last weekend I had my first "trad" experience. I didn't lead but cleaned on a route and saw how gear was placed. I also recently saw a video on Masters of Stone of a guy taking a nasty whipper and 4 or 5 pieces of pro pop out on his fall, luckily he was high enough up the route that he had a piece to catch him. I have seen a few other videos similar to this as well. Does gear pop out that often? How easy is it to get it wrong? It seems fairly easy if experience climbers have numerous pieces coming out on a fall. Does it happen that often? If so why risk it? I know sport has its risks as well, but I definitely trust a bolt drilled into the wall more than placing a cam that can walk and come loose. Just kind of curious as to what drives you to it?
More places to play.
Craftsmanship.
Self reliance.
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gobennyjo
Apr 23, 2007, 1:39 AM
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Because bolts are not in rock naturaly
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jt512
Apr 23, 2007, 2:13 AM
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gobennyjo wrote: Because bolts are not in rock naturaly
As opposed to cams, which are.
Jay
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gobennyjo
Apr 23, 2007, 2:18 AM
Post #69 of 78
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What I mean is the rock does not need to be bolted.
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medicus
Apr 23, 2007, 2:19 AM
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Lol, the same could be said to... As the hands and feet of humans who climb.
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jt512
Apr 23, 2007, 4:51 AM
Post #71 of 78
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gobennyjo wrote: What I mean is the rock does not need to be bolted.
The rock does not need to be climbed.
Jay
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112
Apr 23, 2007, 5:35 AM
Post #72 of 78
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Its kinda like moving out of your parents house. You take on a whole lot more responsibility when you move out and those new responsibilities reduce (momentarily) what you are able to do, but the rewards that follow...
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dingus
Apr 23, 2007, 11:26 PM
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jt512 wrote: gobennyjo wrote: What I mean is the rock does not need to be bolted. The rock does not need to be climbed. Jay
Oh yes... it DOES. The rock DOES NEED TO BE CLIMBED.
Jay, wash yer mouth out with beer son. No more blasphemies in here or we're going straight to the Jack next time.
DMT
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medicus
Apr 26, 2007, 7:49 AM
Post #75 of 78
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The person does not need to exist.
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nthusiastj
Apr 26, 2007, 1:21 PM
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Because, Trad is Rad!
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robbovius
Apr 26, 2007, 4:37 PM
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jt512 wrote: gobennyjo wrote: What I mean is the rock does not need to be bolted. The rock does not need to be climbed. Jay
The rock does not need.
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dingus
Apr 26, 2007, 4:40 PM
Post #78 of 78
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robbovius wrote: jt512 wrote: gobennyjo wrote: What I mean is the rock does not need to be bolted. The rock does not need to be climbed. Jay The rock does not need.
Yes it DOES. Rocks have needs and one of them is to be fondled by climbers.
What in THE HELL is the matter with you people? Are you THIS UNAWARE of your surroundings?
DMT
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