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majid_sabet
Jul 24, 2007, 4:26 AM
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Last weekend in Yosemite , I went to meet my old buddy
the SHORT CIRCUIT. This SOB is a meat lover and without tape, you may get some bloody hand, however, someone else before me had his dry blood stamped all over the face and inside the crack.
So , since our old blood marks are all over these rocks and we keep adding more blood , is this some thing we should worry about ( medical concern) ? I mean I know it is going to be a dry blood mark but I was just wondering.
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el_layclimber
Jul 24, 2007, 5:20 AM
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No, as long as it is dried out. I don't think that any significantly dangerous pathogen in there could live any longer than it would take for it to dry.
Gives the climb some character.
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reverse_dyno
Jul 24, 2007, 7:36 AM
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The hepatitis B virus can indeed survive in dried blood for up to 7 days at 25 F, according the the below quote.
There is basically no risk of getting HIV from dried blood.
A quote from Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety: http://www.ccohs.ca/...ses/hepatitis_b.html
Where is the hepatitis B virus found and how is it transmitted?
Blood is the major source of the hepatitis B virus in the workplace. It can also be found in other tissues and body fluids, but in much lower concentrations. The risk of transmission varies according to the specific source
Blood
Direct contact with infected blood can transmit the hepatitis B virus through:
* punctures of the skin with blood-contaminated needles, lancets, scalpels, or other sharps
* splashes to skin bearing minute scratches, abrasions, burns, or even minor rashes
* splashes to mucous membranes in the mouth, nose, or eyes
To a lesser extent, indirect contact with blood-contaminated surfaces can also transmit the hepatitis B virus. The virus may be stable in dried blood for up to 7 days at 25°C. Hand contact with blood-contaminated surfaces such as laboratory benches, test tubes, or laboratory instruments may transfer the virus to skin or mucous membranes.
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thomasribiere
Jul 24, 2007, 11:30 AM
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How weird! I never thought of that : for me, dry blood was not dangerous. Should the hurt person write the date of accident on the rock (with letters of blood!)?... 
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reno
Jul 24, 2007, 1:54 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: So , since our old blood marks are all over these rocks and we keep adding more blood , is this some thing we should worry about ( medical concern) ?
Not really, no.
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summerprophet
Jul 24, 2007, 3:44 PM
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Majid climbed Short Circuit ???????
That is proud man, nice work.
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majid_sabet
Jul 24, 2007, 4:33 PM
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summerprophet wrote: Majid climbed Short Circuit ??????? That is proud man, nice work.
I have not been climbing for few months and I barley made to top of SC the first time but then on 2ed and 3rd try I could not do it all the way and chickened out and jumped in Merced river instead .
My local friends say "if you can do SC, you can do any climb in Yos"
He is dam right about it.
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mikitta
Jul 24, 2007, 8:29 PM
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First - Grats on your ascent, Majid :)
Second - If you get concerned about pathogen transmission from old blood on the rock, you can always take a squirt bottle with a 10% solution of bleach up with you. That should take care of any Hep or other viral agents that may be left behind in someone else's blood stains.
Basically, unless you are having sex or sharing needles with whoever smeared their blood up there AND they are infected, you don't have much to worry about.
Yes, the HB virus will remain viable for 7 days in a controlled environment (inside on a counter top, or on clothes, etc) But when exposed to extreme conditions, like those on the rock (wide temperature fluctuations, variations in acidity or basicity of the rock, etc), it remains unlikely you will encounter one viable Hep B virus in any of the blood stains there.
As someone else mentioned, HIV is not at all an issue. That virus is extremely fragile and does not live long on surfaces after it comes out of the body. This is not to say if your climbing partner is HIV+ you have no worries to follow them up a rock they bleed on - definitely take up your bleachy squirt bottle. However, after a maximum of about 30 minutes, the HIV virus is no longer viable unless maintained in a very controlled environment. This particular characteristic gave virologists a little difficulty when they were trying to grow it in cultures. We are lucky in this, because if it were a hardy virus like HBV, we would see far more cases of infection than we do now - and we already see far too many, IMHO.
God Bless,
mik
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bent_gate
Jul 24, 2007, 9:01 PM
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Nice to hear a climbing story Majid!
Of course, even without contact with blood, you can get an infection from any type of cut. So clean it well. It heals a lot faster that way too. Common sense, and nothing that everyone doesn't already know, but it has to be added.
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grover
Jul 26, 2007, 6:15 PM
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Hmmm... thought this was the title of your new climbing magazine... my bad.
I'm more worried of vomit than blood.
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patrickm
Jul 26, 2007, 10:47 PM
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mikitta wrote: First - Grats on your ascent, Majid :) Second - If you get concerned about pathogen transmission from old blood on the rock, you can always take a squirt bottle with a 10% solution of bleach up with you. That should take care of any Hep or other viral agents that may be left behind in someone else's blood stains. Basically, unless you are having sex or sharing needles with whoever smeared their blood up there AND they are infected, you don't have much to worry about. Yes, the HB virus will remain viable for 7 days in a controlled environment (inside on a counter top, or on clothes, etc) But when exposed to extreme conditions, like those on the rock (wide temperature fluctuations, variations in acidity or basicity of the rock, etc), it remains unlikely you will encounter one viable Hep B virus in any of the blood stains there. As someone else mentioned, HIV is not at all an issue. That virus is extremely fragile and does not live long on surfaces after it comes out of the body. This is not to say if your climbing partner is HIV+ you have no worries to follow them up a rock they bleed on - definitely take up your bleachy squirt bottle. However, after a maximum of about 30 minutes, the HIV virus is no longer viable unless maintained in a very controlled environment. This particular characteristic gave virologists a little difficulty when they were trying to grow it in cultures. We are lucky in this, because if it were a hardy virus like HBV, we would see far more cases of infection than we do now - and we already see far too many, IMHO. God Bless, mik
Hmmm...the bleach will keep you disease free just long enough to take a fall on your newly bleached rope. I will roll the dice with the pathogens.
Patrick
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mikitta
Jul 26, 2007, 11:44 PM
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Hehe, Patrick - me too! Especially since you have to leave the bleach sit for about 5 minutes for it to be effective. Can you imagine spritzing each bloody hold and telling your belayer to hold on while you let it dry? LOL
The suggestion was tongue in cheek :p I rather suspect that most people aren't going to be so anal as to do that - at least not climbers. The people that I DO know who are so anal retentive as to do that also get wigged out by just normal dirt on the sidewalk. They can barely stand being outside in their own yard, let alone such a chaotic and dirty place as a crag LOL!
God Bless,
mik
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flamer
Jul 27, 2007, 1:35 AM
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grover wrote: I'm more worried of vomit than blood.
You shouldn't be.
I'd be more worried about bacteria...like staph, than virus's.
josh
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carbonrx8
Jul 27, 2007, 2:34 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Rock & Blood
grover wrote: thought this was the title of your new climbing magazine...
Absolutely Brilliant!
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drm1st
Jul 27, 2007, 2:45 AM
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P.S. this is a pretty good question all & all.
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grover
Jul 27, 2007, 5:22 AM
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flamer wrote: grover wrote: I'm more worried of vomit than blood. You shouldn't be. I'd be more worried about bacteria...like staph, than virus's. josh
It's not the bacteria i'm worried about, it's the chunks and stomach acid on my gear.
stomach acid=microfractures
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reno
Jul 27, 2007, 5:25 AM
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flamer wrote: You shouldn't be. I'd be more worried about bacteria...like staph, than virus's.
Depends on the specific bacteria and viruses (viruii?)
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flamer
Jul 27, 2007, 4:58 PM
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Necrotising facisitis....(sp?)
josh
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wilcox510
Jul 27, 2007, 5:14 PM
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Necrotizing fasciitis is not a bacteria. It is a severe infection that could be caused by many different types of bacteria.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 5:17 PM
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When I climb at rumny there is so much slime, grime and blood on all the holds that the first thing I do when I get back to the parking area is wash up in the river. I am also prone to have handy whipes in the van to sanitize with.
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reno
Jul 27, 2007, 6:23 PM
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flamer wrote: Necrotising facisitis....(sp?)
OK, sure, that's one that is worse than most viruses, but the bacteria that cause Nec. Fasc. (Group A Strep, if memory serves) don't survive well outside of a human host for long. The weather conditions, direct UV light from the sun, and so forth all conspire to kill 'em.
Hep C, though.... nasty virus, that. Withstands elements quite well.
Do we have any microbiologists around that can expand on this concern? I'm sure that someone knows more about microbe virility and can help us out.
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flamer
Jul 27, 2007, 8:12 PM
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wilcox510 wrote: Necrotizing fasciitis is not a bacteria.
As reno said....it's strep.
Jeff...I just had a class on it. It's actually stronger outside a host than most people think. I personally know at least 4 folks who've had it. Not good!
Hep C, well most Hep, is a bigger concern primarily due to it being more previlant. Did you know that we're up to Hep G now???
Another one to be concerned with is Hantavirus. While you're probably not going to get it from another human, it is a concern for climbers. Especially in the southwest.
Hanta is spread primarily through rodents. It's airbourne and floats out of (infected)rat nests,coming from their dried fecal matter.
The reason it is a concern for climbers is that rats love to nest in cracks and crevice's. Hell there are rats living halfway up El cap!
josh
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reno
Jul 27, 2007, 8:20 PM
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flamer wrote: wilcox510 wrote: Necrotizing fasciitis is not a bacteria. As reno said....it's strep.
A bit of misunderstanding here, methinks:
Necrotizing Fasciitis is a condition, CAUSED by a Streptococcus bacteria.
Nec Fasc. isn't a bacteria itself. Nor do all folks with Strep A get Nec. Fasc. (Group A Strep is the same agent that causes strep throat.)
Just trying to clarify that.
In reply to: Hep C, well most Hep, is a bigger concern primarily due to it being more previlant. Did you know that we're up to Hep G now???
Yep. And we'll be past that in another year or less. Damn viral mutations..... grrrrr.
In reply to: Another one to be concerned with is Hantavirus. While you're probably not going to get it from another human, it is a concern for climbers. Especially in the southwest.
Yeah, tell me about it.
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wilcox510
Jul 29, 2007, 4:03 AM
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Actually, necrotizing fasciitis can be caused by a number of different bacteria.I think it is most commonly caused by group A strep, but there are a number or bugs that can cause it.
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bent_gate
Jul 29, 2007, 5:03 AM
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Or if you get some Clostridium Perfringens poked into your muscle you can get some nice Gas Gangrene working its way up your muscle sheath!
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reno
Jul 29, 2007, 6:41 AM
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wilcox510 wrote: Actually, necrotizing fasciitis can be caused by a number of different bacteria.I think it is most commonly caused by group A strep, but there are a number or bugs that can cause it.
Well, yeah, but the most common is Group A Strep (according to CDC data,) so I played the odds.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2007, 7:46 AM
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flamer wrote: Another one to be concerned with is Hantavirus. While you're probably not going to get it from another human, it is a concern for climbers. Especially in the southwest. Hanta is spread primarily through rodents. It's airbourne and floats out of (infected)rat nests,coming from their dried fecal matter.
Hantavirus in humans in North America is extremely rare. The most recent CDC stats I could find showed only about 25 cases in 2004 in the entire US.
When I was a county public health epidemiologist in Southern California, repeated rodent surveys showed that 5% to 10% of wild rodents in the county carried hantavirus. Yet, to the best of my knowledge, there had never been a human case in the county.
As I understand it, human cases can often be traced to the victim having been in an enclosed space in which dried rodent feces had been actively stirred up. Hantavirus particles do not "float" out of rodent feces. They become airborne only from dried feces and only when stirred up, as when sweeping a feces-covered floor. So, while it would be a sensible precaution to wear a surgical face mask while sweeping out your rodent-infested, unventilated attic, you need have virtually no concern about catching the disease while outdoors.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 29, 2007, 4:59 PM)
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flamer
Jul 29, 2007, 4:35 PM
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Interesting Jay!
Thanks.
josh
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mikitta
Jul 29, 2007, 8:37 PM
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Heh, Jay beat me to the Hantavirus info :) (I have an underutilized BS from University of Wyoming in Microbiology). Of course, all I was going to say is to leave the rodent nests alone when you are on the rock and you have nothing to worry about :)
As for why Hepatitis is so hardy - I believe it has a lipid sheath that protects it from UV breakdown, dessication and other environmental degradation. That is why it is such a public health concern. You can get it from surfaces an infected person has touched.
This is an interesting thread :)
God Bless,
mik
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HarklessDO
Jul 31, 2007, 12:15 AM
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The most troubling possibility and significantly likely has yet to be mentioned. That is community aquired MRSA (staph aureus). This is a typical bug that is resistant to most standard antibiotics. Assuming you have and open wound when you get to the blood there is a distinct chance you could aquire this. It is even more likely if you have anything say like diabetes that would weaken your immune system.
I have had several patients which have had very minor to severe problems. One family I had passed it in a mechanism which would be like we are talking about. They all used a tub because there was no shower and bacteria from one basically became dried to tub and just kept spreading till the whole family was infected.
This all being said I have left blood many places and probably taken blood from some places. And my biggest advice. A good handwashing goes a long way.
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mikitta
Jul 31, 2007, 12:28 AM
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Clorox wipes in the pack FTW :D
God Bless,
mik
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scotchie
Jul 31, 2007, 1:59 PM
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Why not tape up, so that you don't get/expose any cuts or bruises?
Any professional opinions on how big a risk this actually is (considering what % of people actually have HBV/Staph to pass on, and what is the probability of transmission from dried blood)?
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mikitta
Jul 31, 2007, 10:26 PM
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I personally have never heard of a case transmitted like this. Has anyone else here who works in the medical field? While climbers sometimes cultivate the dirtbag image, most of us are pretty clean, I think.
Just be sure to wash your hands after climbing and after using public restrooms (where you have a much greater chance of contracting it, really).
God Bless,
mik
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jt512
Aug 1, 2007, 12:49 AM
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mikitta wrote: I personally have never heard of a case transmitted like this. Has anyone else here who works in the medical field? While climbers sometimes cultivate the dirtbag image, most of us are pretty clean, I think. Just be sure to wash your hands after climbing and after using public restrooms (where you have a much greater chance of contracting it, really). God Bless, mik
I'd be more concerned about MRSA in a climbing gym than outdoors.
Jay
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sammmy
Aug 1, 2007, 1:27 AM
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flamer wrote: Necrotising facisitis....(sp?) josh
Yes, it happens. It actually happened to me, I have fully recovered though...
Be careful out there
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flamer
Aug 1, 2007, 5:48 AM
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sammmy wrote: flamer wrote: Necrotising facisitis....(sp?) josh Yes, it happens. It actually happened to me, I have fully recovered though... [IMG]http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/sam_fagg/creepy.jpg[/IMG] Be careful out there
Did you get it from over using the peace sign?
josh
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flint
Aug 1, 2007, 6:45 AM
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sammmy wrote: flamer wrote: Necrotising facisitis....(sp?) josh Yes, it happens. It actually happened to me, I have fully recovered though... [IMG]http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/sam_fagg/creepy.jpg[/IMG] Be careful out there
Nastiest picture ever. Are those plastic tubes in your fingers? I need a bottle with bleach.
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majid_sabet
Aug 1, 2007, 7:09 AM
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Necrotising facisitis
http://en.wikipedia.org/...ecrotizing_fasciitis
Necrotizing fasciitis or fasciitis necroticans, commonly known as "flesh-eating bacteria", is a rare infection of the deeper layers of skin and subcutaneous tissues, easily spreading across the fascial plane within the subcutaneous tissue. Many types of bacteria can cause necrotizing fasciitis (eg. Group A streptococcus, Vibrio vulnificus, Clostridium perfringens, Bacteroides fragilis), of which Group A streptococcus is the most common
Symptoms
The infection begins locally, at a site of trauma, which may be severe (such as the result of surgery), minor, or even non-apparent. The affected skin is classically, at first, very painful without any grossly visible change. With progression of the disease, tissues becomes swollen, often within hours. Diarrhea and vomiting are common symptoms as well. Inflammation doesn't show signs right away if the bacteria is deep within the tissue. If it isn't deep, signs of inflammation such as redness, swollen and hot skin show very quickly. Skin color may progress to violet and blisters may form, with subsequent necrosis (death) of the subcutaneous tissues. Patients with necrotizing fasciitis typically have a fever and appear very ill. More severe cases progress within hours, and the death rate is high, about 30%. Even with medical assistance the antibiotics take a while to react to the bacteria making the infection even more serious.[1]
Pathophysiology
"Flesh-eating bacteria" is a misnomer, as the bacteria do not actually eat the tissue. They cause the destruction of skin and muscle by releasing toxins (virulence factors). These include streptococcal pyogenic exotoxins and other virulence factors. S. pyogenes produces an exotoxin known as a superantigen. This toxin is capable of activating T-cells non-specifically. This causes the over-production of cytokines that over-stimulate macrophages. The macrophages cause the actual tissue damage by releasing oxygen free radicals.
Treatment
The diagnosis is confirmed by either blood cultures or aspiration of pus from tissue, but early medical treatment is crucial and often presumptive; thus, antibiotics should be started as soon as this condition is suspected. Initial treatment often includes a combination of intravenous antibiotics including penicillin, vancomycin and clindamycin. If necrotizing fasciitis is suspected, surgical exploration is always necessary, often resulting in aggressive debridement (removal of infected tissue). As in other maladies characterized by massive wounds or tissue destruction, hyperbaric oxygen treatment can be a valuable adjunctive therapy, but is not widely available. Amputation of the affected organ(s) may be necessary. Repeat explorations usually need to be done to remove additional necrotic tissue. Typically, this leaves a large open wound which often requires skin grafting. The associated systemic inflammatory response is usually profound, and most patients will require monitoring in an intensive care unit.
Prognosis
This disease is one of the fastest-spreading infections known as it spreads easily across the fascial plane within the subcutaneous tissue. For this reason, it is popularly called the "flesh-eating disease" and although rare, it became well-known to the public in the 1990s. Even with today's modern medicine, the prognosis can be bleak, with a mortality rate of around 25% and severe disfigurement common in survivors. Mortality is nearly 100% if not properly treated within the first few hours.
Other bacterial strains
In February 2004, a rarer but even more serious form of the disease has been observed in increasing frequency, with several cases found specifically in California. In these cases, the bacterium causing it was a strain of Staphylococcus aureus (i.e. Staphylococcus, not Streptococcus as stated above) which is resistant against methicillin, the antibiotic usually used for treatment (see Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus for details). "Super Strep" appeared in Ohio and Texas in 1992 and 1993 and was contracted by appx. 140 people. It took under 12 hours to incapacitate most and caused 3 days of very high fevers. The death rate, in 1993 was reported to be 10% with a majority of the victims having severe to mild brain damage.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Aug 1, 2007, 7:14 AM)
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HarklessDO
Aug 1, 2007, 11:14 AM
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There is no way to figure out probability but by washing your hands you drastically lower the probability. I would assume less than 1%.
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azrockclimber
Aug 1, 2007, 12:50 PM
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you can totally get hepatitis...
oh, someone already told you that.... good...
(This post was edited by azrockclimber on Aug 1, 2007, 12:50 PM)
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boku
Aug 14, 2007, 12:24 AM
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flint wrote: Nastiest picture ever. Are those plastic tubes in your fingers? I need a bottle with bleach.
Worry not, it's just another PhotoShop fake. This one superimposes lamprey mouths on fingertips. Here's a web page with the original photo.
(This post was edited by boku on Aug 14, 2007, 5:49 PM)
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