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wiki
Sep 13, 2007, 7:40 AM
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Hi!
I teach a climbing class in our local gym. I teach 6+& year olds. They are all proficient lead climbers/belayers (as long as they only belay kids their own size) and we have been working on topping out climbs and anchors lately.
All my kids are hungry to learn more - especially the rope work and learn and remember skills so fast that i am running out of things to teach them.
I am a bit worried that we are moving too fast though - maybe we should just be concentrating on movement on rock and learning technique but they are just so keen and are gearing up for an (outdoor) climbing trip next month. 
What do you guys think? Are my 6 + 7 year olds too young for lead climbing outdoors or ill they just get hurt?
Thanks!
Wiki
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JAB
Sep 13, 2007, 7:52 AM
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The younger the better! Make sure to learn them how to use nuts & cams and the thrill of running it out and in no time you can all go soloing Stolby style. 
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wiki
Sep 13, 2007, 7:56 AM
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lol I wish! nothing but bolts as far as the eye can see round here!
Thanks for your advice... its what i was thinking too!
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abock33
Sep 13, 2007, 8:56 AM
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Go for it. You're teaching the next Caldwell, Hill and Sharma.
I know i don't have to mention this but, redundancy never hurts... Keep a keen eye on them. I know how I used to act when I was 7.
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overlord
Sep 13, 2007, 10:48 AM
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definitely not too young, but you do need to keep an eye on them
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bizarrodrinker
Sep 13, 2007, 11:20 AM
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That's a tough one. I guess if its cool with their parents though. I think a lot of them might be pretty freaked out about their kids leading outside at that age.
But if its very heavily supervised (like a person for each belayer) I would say go for it. Fact is kids get more excited outside so they are more likely to forget certain important things.
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wiki
Sep 13, 2007, 11:40 AM
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bizarrodrinker wrote: That's a tough one. I guess if its cool with their parents though. I think a lot of them might be pretty freaked out about their kids leading outside at that age. But if its very heavily supervised (like a person for each belayer) I would say go for it. Fact is kids get more excited outside so they are more likely to forget certain important things.
Hehehe... their (non climbing) parents are almost more excited about the trip away than the kids! They are fighting over who is going to be in charge of food, transport, tents etc... great to have such accepting parents!
I was thinking a back-up belayer and an anchor person for each belayer (keep the non-climbers occupied too) and also an instructor at the top to help with their topping out.
Thanks all for your help, it is helping put my mind at rest...
Now what do I do when they beg to practice their top-rope rescues?!
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mikes
Sep 13, 2007, 1:06 PM
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Hi Wiki,
my daughter just started to lead climb and she is 10. Some things you need to keep in mind. For kids this small routes are very run out and they have trouble making clips. Kids are top heavy and slim (most of them ) around the hips. If they get turned up side down they will slip out off their harness. A chest harness combined with a usual climbing harness is a must. Kids that age will take much "harder" leader falls compared to an adult. They are very light and do not have enough weight to take advantage of the rope elongation. They will generate high G forces and a fall for them is very static. One should only use a new rope with the smallest possible diameter. Small diameter ropes are better in terms of impact force. I am assuming you have kids climbing helmets.
All this considered I don't think parents would give you their consent. Keep the kids on a top rope for a couple more years. Or have them practice some lead climbing with a top rope back up. This way they can practice clipping.
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stefanohatari
Sep 13, 2007, 1:12 PM
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I also work in a gym where climbing team kids as young as 8 can lead climb indoors. Some questions:
1. Are you, the kids, and their parents mentally prepared for the time when one of the kids gets hurt in a lead fall? (The chances of injury are greater outdoors).
2. Is everyone aware of the additional risks of climbing outdoors? (weather, insects, falling rock, etc.)
3. Will the kids be technically and mentally prepared for the greater spacing between clips that you find outdoors? For cold shuts? For rapping off of anchors or clipping your own draws? For downclimbing?
4. Have the parents/guardians filled out a waiver form that informs them of the above, and releases you from liability for the increased risk?
If the answers are yes, then go for it.
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 3:35 PM
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I think the answer to your question lies within a few, very important, variables.
1. These kids are really young - babies really. Are they MATURE enough to take on the role of leading outdoors? Some kids are and some aren't.
2. What ratings are you going to have them on? Are their first outdoor climbs going to be 5.5 -5.7, or are they going to be much harder?
3. Gym and outdoor climbing are two entirely different environments (and for this age group, different means threatening usually) and there is a possibility your kids could get hit with a mild case of agoraphobia once on that rock. The wind might be blowing, the sun might get pretty hot, then there is the view and putting distance into the context of the whole scene could result in a fear frozen baby half way up the rock, making it difficult for you to lower them. Not saying this is the case, but I've seen it before.
If it were me, I think I would not have them lead outdoors in this situation. If you only had, say, two kids to deal with - then you could play it out by ear and let them test their metal on something very straight forward. However, you have more than that. I'm assuming you have between 6 and 10 kids? Let them lead practice with a top rope and definitely back up the belays with an experienced adult for each child belaying.
I'm not saying that your kids are NOT qualified at all. After all, Layne Kopischka's daughters were leading the hard stuff at Veedauwoo by the time they were 8 and 9 - they had been climbing there with their dad since they could walk and never climbed in a gym to my knowledge, so that was their normal.
Just be cautious since this is the their first time out. See how they do on top ropes first :)
What most everyone else has said here is very good advice too :)
God Bless,
mik
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Carnage
Sep 13, 2007, 3:45 PM
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in regards to your question about moving too fast and learning to move on the rock.
all of the classes I've taken have been "how to not die while rock climbing" not really "how to climb 5.12's". its a lot easier (and safer) to figure out how to pull the crux of a climb than it is to figure out how to equalize a 3 point anchor. especially with kids, they will get all the climbing parts by themselves, they wont get the saftey stuff.
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angry
Sep 13, 2007, 4:06 PM
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I don't think they should lead.
I have a 16 YO brother, I'm 29. When I first took him climbing he was probably about 6. Maybe younger. I haven't lived at home most of his life and it's been difficult to get consistent miles on the rock with him. Several years ago he asked me if he could lead a route (trad, probably offwidth). I wouldn't let him I thought he was just too young. As he's getting older and smarter, it's time to get him on the sharp end. It'll be a slow process.
Now I was leading maybe the 3rd time I ever tied in. The difference is that no-one was the expert, no-one was responsible for my safety, and no-one would have to answer to my parents if things went wrong. As the person responsible for my baby bro, I keep it safe and keep it fun. If he wants to push himself further into climbing on his own accord, great, that's his choice to make.
I have been at the gym, just the gym, and seen kids older than yours nearly off themselves. These kids were members of the climbing team. Had led in the gym up to 5.12, bouldered probably V6. These weren't first month climbing clubbers. The kid gets on a route that is hard for him and back clips. Then he Z clips, then he gets the rope behind his leg. He lowers down and tries to get it right this time. HE CAN'T.
After multiple tries it's clear that he will not be able to climb this route safely because he cannot keep his mechanical knowledge separate from the difficulty of this route.
Outside ain't inside. It shrinks what most kids' "level" is. You are asking for trouble.
Finally, 6 years old is crazy young. I was a K-8 PE teacher for a while. I couldn't count on the little-uns to find their way to the bathroom, fold up the parachute right, or not trip over each other while standing in line. It's too young, keep climbing fun and maybe they'll get more interested later.
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 4:21 PM
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It all depends on the personality, capabilities and maturity of the individual child - and on their adult mentor, what they are prepared to deal with - but in general I very much agree with you. Like I said, Layne Kopischka's two girls were leading at young ages (before the age of 10) and he was taking them climbing since they could walk. That was, of course, 20 years ago. His girls are now all grown up and likely have families of their own. I do not know if they still climb. They were in their early teens when Layne died - I think he had a brain anyurism in his sleep.
I know that if it were MY kids - I would be opposed to them leading at their ages (8 and 10) even in the gym. They simply do NOT have the critical thinking skills necessary for it at this time of their lives, even for something so simple as clipping a bolt on a sport rout. Let's not even get into the complexities of building a safe and equalized 3 point anchor at the top :)
God Bless,
mik
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jgloporto
Sep 13, 2007, 4:25 PM
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wiki wrote: What do you guys think? Are my 6 + 7 year olds too young for lead climbing outdoors or ill they just get hurt? Thanks! Wiki
Jesus H Christ, my six year old can't even tie his shoes...
IMO, if a kid can't write or read the words "clove hitch", then maybe leading should wait a while.
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reg
Sep 13, 2007, 4:40 PM
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bad idea
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whoa
Sep 13, 2007, 4:48 PM
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amen.
but they're not too young to wash ropes!
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desertwanderer81
Sep 13, 2007, 5:22 PM
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You should try top roping outdoors before you take them lead climbing. I'm thinking 10 trips or so outdoors, then try outdoors leading. Indoors leading should be fine, as long as you have a second person backing the belayer up at ALL times.
They may be eager....but there's nothing wrong with taking it slow. Giving them something to look forward to will only make them more excited about climbing.
Take for instance when you take it slow with a chick (or guy). If you really really want to have sex with them for a long time, when you finally have it, is it better or worse? For me it usually is much better!
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tahamsh
Sep 13, 2007, 6:21 PM
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I would take the conservative route here. It's likely the parents wouldn't comprehend the additional risks involved when they give consent -- and the responsibility would rest soley on your shoulders.
The kids could still get the "experience" by setting up mock leads (top-rope backup). That was a great suggestion.
I have a 6 and 9 year old that I have a hard enough time keeping out of trouble at the crag when they're off the rope! I like to keep the risk levels as low as possible when we're outdoors. There are too many variables.
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xtremst80
Sep 13, 2007, 6:40 PM
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I have to agree, bad idea!
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jakedatc
Sep 13, 2007, 6:43 PM
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how many kids... how many adult, certified instructors? I do not think you will have enough qualified people to do this safely. Outdoors is not the first time to be teaching people how to lead. Kids will always want to do more and more and be like the older people.. it's your job to reel them in and be responsible enough to know they are not ready. Have them mock lead while on Tr in the Gym if they want to practice new stuff..
Hell i took my 23 ish yr old friend who's been climbing for like 5 years.. boulders v5+ and he was back clipping like a fiend and had to be talked through every anchor.
This is an accident waiting to happen IMO
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 6:52 PM
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--thread hijack--
I THINK I know what it is, but what exactly is back clipping? I'm sure I would recognize it if I saw it, but I always had very good, technically adept partners to climb with, so never witnessed it personally outside any formalized classes (and I don't remember it)
A link to an illustration (preferably not Majid Sabet originals) would be sufficient :)
Thanks
--/thread hijack--
God Bless,
mik
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jakedatc
Sep 13, 2007, 6:58 PM
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Correct
Back clip
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 7:02 PM
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Thanks Jake :) yes I recognize that - just didn't remember the poor technique the term refered to :)
God Bless,
mik
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majid_sabet
Sep 13, 2007, 7:09 PM
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jakedatc wrote: how many kids... how many adult, certified instructors? I do not think you will have enough qualified people to do this safely. Outdoors is not the first time to be teaching people how to lead. Kids will always want to do more and more and be like the older people.. it's your job to reel them in and be responsible enough to know they are not ready. Have them mock lead while on Tr in the Gym if they want to practice new stuff.. Hell i took my 23 ish yr old friend who's been climbing for like 5 years.. boulders v5+ and he was back clipping like a fiend and had to be talked through every anchor. This is an accident waiting to happen IMO
A certification does not mean a sh*t in the real world. If he/she has enough confidence in properly educating his students with the most up-to-date knowledge and techniques, then I would say he is qualified to teach or manage a group of people. A certification does not release you from the liability or lawsuit .It is only to indicate that you got some level of training but it is up to you to keep yourself up to date.
My suggestion to OP
You should get a small pocket size calendar book and log your teaching activity and document how many students you have and what you teach as detail as possible. In event that sh8T hits the fan, that log book could save your as* in court of law.
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 7:18 PM
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Majid, the point of asking how many certified instructors would be along on the trip is that with a group of students THAT young, there should be ideally at least one qualified adult climber who knew what they were doing per two or a the most three students in order to supervise the belays and the climbing and to keep an eye on the kids who weren't actively on rope in some manner, as well as to assist with gear management. It wasn't a statement about secondary instructors qualifications to BE instructors.
God Bless,
mik
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jt512
Sep 13, 2007, 7:41 PM
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mikitta wrote: It all depends on the personality, capabilities and maturity of the individual child - and on their adult mentor...
I think that that is exactly correct, and it argues against teaching lead climbing to young kids in a group setting. Chris Lindner led trad 5.10a, placing his own protection, at age 4, and led 5.12a sport at age 6; but he was an exceptional kid in an exceptional situation, having two parents who were practically full-time climbers. So, with the right kid and the right mentor, this can be done; but it's not something for the average kid in a group setting.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 14, 2007, 12:56 AM)
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Myxomatosis
Sep 13, 2007, 9:45 PM
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I was recently at the gym watching a 10 year old girl get pushed (by her father by thats another thread) to lead climb a 5.10b on quite a major overhanging wall. She started freaking out while trying to clip the 3rd clip (say 15m's up).
The panic started to set in and she began to cry and then slipped off (poor foot work in the confusion) and took a major fall (bigger than I have ever done). Like someone said above, her upper body fell faster than her legs (nearly looked like she was about to fall out of her harness) and when the rope caught her it jerked her hard.
I'm not saying don't let them lead but I wouldn't push them into it. Just let them top rope on an easy wall to begin with... then if they are still feel up to leading... get them to top rope on a harder climb .
I wouldn't rush little kid's, they are to young to control their emotions like the little girl above, once they start to panic its hard to calm them down.
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 10:07 PM
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All too true - sad to hear that the same parent competitiveness is inserting itself into a sport that is supposed to be all about beating one's self imposed limitations rather than besting someone else. I hope the little girl is ok now - though she will never forget this and it may well turn her off to climbing for good.
God Bless,
mik
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Myxomatosis
Sep 13, 2007, 11:13 PM
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mikitta wrote: All too true - sad to hear that the same parent competitiveness is inserting itself into a sport that is supposed to be all about beating one's self imposed limitations rather than besting someone else. I hope the little girl is ok now - though she will never forget this and it may well turn her off to climbing for good. God Bless, mik
Oh... Forgot to add she was OK, I think she hit her knee on the wall and she was limping a little but walked it off. It definitely left an impression on her, she took her harness off and just started bouldering for the rest of the night. The family was Italian so I couldnt understand what they were saying but by the tone, Id say it was the father was pushing her 
Her mum was also watching her and even if she was keen to give it a try, perhaps the father should have stepped in and told her to try something a little easier... Fun first, death second... hahaha 
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wiki
Sep 13, 2007, 11:55 PM
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First of all, thank you all for your help and opinions!
jakedatc wrote: how many kids... how many adult, certified instructors? I do not think you will have enough qualified people to do this safely. Outdoors is not the first time to be teaching people how to lead.
We will have 2, possibly 3 qualified instructors (one of which is me). I have been teaching toprope and lead climbing outdoors for 4 years now just never outdoor lead climbing with kids this young.
I suppose the best way is to play it by ear - it won't be any hassle to start them on toproping and it is super-easy for an instructor to sit at the top of the crag and help them top-out when they are leading (you can just walk round the back )
There will also be 2 assistant instructors (in training for their quals) so the ratio will be 1 instructor per 3 kids
Helmets are a definite with a group of course.
In reply to: You should get a small pocket size calendar book and log your teaching activity and document how many students you have and what you teach as detail as possible. In event that sh8T hits the fan, that log book could save your as* in court of law.
Good idea! I have a log book for all the other instructing I've done but I haven't kept one for the class... thanks!
I may just take all the quickdraws off one wall in the gym so they can practice clipping the bolts too.
In the end, it won't kill them if they just top-rope for the weekend will it?
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wiki
Sep 14, 2007, 12:02 AM
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In reply to: IMO, if a kid can't write or read the words "clove hitch", then maybe leading should wait a while.
umm... its scary but most of them can't read or write "clove hitch" but they can tie one,, dress it, tell you what it is for and the pros and cons of using one.
a slightly frightening bunch of kids - they go out and learn half this stuff in their own time too!
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jgloporto
Sep 14, 2007, 12:48 AM
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wiki wrote: In reply to: IMO, if a kid can't write or read the words "clove hitch", then maybe leading should wait a while. umm... its scary but most of them can't read or write "clove hitch" but they can tie one,, dress it, tell you what it is for and the pros and cons of using one. a slightly frightening bunch of kids - they go out and learn half this stuff in their own time too!
In that case, I suggest skipping sport leading and proceeding directly to hard aid. Be sure to post up some pics of the six year olds racked with 200 biners and three racks of gear hooking their way up a 60 foot runout.
That would be awesome.
I got a couple of drinks in me right now and I can't stop laughing at the thought of that.
Oh man, I crack myself up.
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rocknice2
Sep 14, 2007, 12:53 AM
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I have two friends that both have young daughters and what they did was find a little cliff that nobody would climb on. Basically a 5.easy low angle with many holds and only 10 meters high. They took their drills and bolted the crap out of it. Four line with bolts every 1.5 meters. That's proportionately just right for the size of the little kids.
Remember a safe outdoor sport route will leave your kids clipping bolts at 2 body lengths.
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clymbrchk
Sep 14, 2007, 1:21 AM
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My son and I started climbing when he was about 5. When he was somewhere near 7 or 8, he started asking about leading. Not being one to "technically" say no, I suggested that his first lead be on a loose TR. There was some back and forth, but he ultimately agreed.
And then, somewhere between the first and second bolt, he decided that he wanted to drop the lead duty and just TR. Again, there was some back and forth, but I haven't heard anything about leading since.
Granted, this is MY child, not someone else's, and I know my son well enough to know that he's simply not ready for the responsibility of leading. I'm also tuned into him enough to know that the feeling of getting above a bolt would be infinitely more convincing to him than anything that I could possibly mutter.
I was also with another adult who could help with the additional belay, and the draws were pre-clipped to the bolts to reduce the complexity. Before this little adventure, he was already cleaning gear, tying his own knots, and practicing gear placements on the ground.
Leading is a whole other kettle of fish, and I think adult mentors can do a great job of role modeling for kids in demonstrating an appreciation for the dangers/complexities involved.
If a kid is really ready, then great - but there is a marked difference between enthusiasm and readiness.
Just my gumbie .02.
(This post was edited by clymbrchk on Sep 14, 2007, 1:24 AM)
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fitzontherocks
Sep 14, 2007, 2:03 AM
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The Italians don't think it's too young, and they're decent climbers. Check the "Baby Arrampicata" section here:
http://www.traversella.net/home.html
Caveat: Obviously they have a "settore" specially outfitted for kids, with bolts 3-5' apart.
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swede
Sep 14, 2007, 9:33 AM
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They will be just as happy to learn more about other things - even about something else than climbing. The only one to whom climbing is really important is most probably only yourself.
There are reasons kids are not allowed to drive, vote, own firearms etc. Their brain is not fully developed. I don´t remember the age Dr Phil talks about, but it is something like 20-25 years.
One thing is for sure - the full understanding that death is something that can happen to you is something that comes relatively late in life.
The kids can tell you all the pros and cons with the clove hitch, but do they UNDERSTAND? A parrot can also learn to tell you the pros and cons....
Waivers, logbooks, certified instructurs might get you off the hook legally, but isn´t it much more important that some kid is still alive/unhurt?
I really does not deserve to be able to write this letter - I did too many stupied things climbing when I was that age. One of my climber friends lost a class mate just because he played close to a crag (NOT climbing).
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pro_alien
Sep 14, 2007, 11:02 AM
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Something I witnessed at the gym -
A young girl - maybe 10 years - just soloes up an easy slab route. I guess she was bored being stuck with her younger brother. Probably she did some outdoor climbing before. Fearless.
I didn't say anything while she was up, didn't want to jinx it... I did ask her to tie in next time once she was down safely.
6 years may be a wee bit young, but with good supervision leading a well bolted sport route does not seem outlandish. An adult should test the route before, make sure it is possible for a kid to safely clip etc. Ideal would be to have an big'un at the top to help with the transition to lowering.
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wiki
Sep 14, 2007, 11:37 AM
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pro_alien wrote: 6 years may be a wee bit young, but with good supervision leading a well bolted sport route does not seem outlandish. An adult should test the route before, make sure it is possible for a kid to safely clip etc. Ideal would be to have an big'un at the top to help with the transition to lowering.
Hmm this is what I am veering towards at the moment - with good supervision - I am the leader and if I have any doubts at any moment, it will be back to toproping.
Don't get me wrong - I am taking all advice on board - it is helping me get an idea of what to look out for and be careful of with kids! I would not even consider this if there wasn't an excellent instructor:child ratio, appropriate bolting (which there is - this is the most ridiculously over-bolted crag ever ! (I can aid it on bolts only)) and most of all, a fun safe environment (limited exposure, good access etc...).
Believe me, I don't want any kids to get hurt/killed or even be put off climbing.
Thanks for your advice and opinions - I find them really valuable!
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freedan
Sep 14, 2007, 12:09 PM
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You should read a little on developmental pyschology. A 6 year old may be physically able to lead climb and may do just fine on a straightforward route with no complications but they do not have the cognitive ability to problem solve when things get tough. If something happens and it went to court, I'm sure developmental pysch and what a child of that age is capable of mentally would be an issue. Shouldn't someone who lead climbs be able to be responsible for themselves, their safety, and understand the ramifications of their decisions (ie. do I run it out to a good placement and risk decking or do I go with a marginal placement and risk it failing and decking)? A 6 year old does not understand risk assessment and how to mitigate risks. I've never met a 6 year old who can conciously suppress the fear response and keep a level head once that button is pushed. A climber should understand and be responsible for their own actions.
Cool that your are teaching kids to climb though, just another consideration
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wiki
Sep 14, 2007, 12:25 PM
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freedan wrote: You should read a little on developmental pyschology. A 6 year old may be physically able to lead climb and may do just fine on a straightforward route with no complications but they do not have the cognitive ability to problem solve when things get tough. If something happens and it went to court, I'm sure developmental pysch and what a child of that age is capable of mentally would be an issue. Shouldn't someone who lead climbs be able to be responsible for themselves, their safety, and understand the ramifications of their decisions (ie. do I run it out to a good placement and risk decking or do I go with a marginal placement and risk it failing and decking)? A 6 year old does not understand risk assessment and how to mitigate risks. I've never met a 6 year old who can conciously suppress the fear response and keep a level head once that button is pushed. A climber should understand and be responsible for their own actions. Cool that your are teaching kids to climb though, just another consideration
Thank you! Another thing to take into account! The great thing is though, they aren't going to have to make decisions for themselves on this trip because we are going to be watching very closely (especially after posting on rc.com!). The kids probably won't be aware of it but it will be out of their hands - I am lucky to have amazingly competent instructors under me who can take action in less than a second to prevent things from going wrong. They are really on to it and have the experience to recognize things before they happen.
Of course there will always be the wild-card (as with everything) but I am more and more convinced that the risk can be carefully managed!
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pornstarr
Sep 14, 2007, 12:50 PM
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set up TR and let them just fake it (mock lead).
otherwise, bad idea........not having seen said phenoms ;).
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 14, 2007, 2:06 PM
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Kids this young should not be leading, period. There are reasons that gyms have age limits as does USA climbing. Sure, once in a while a young phenom comes along, as jay mentioned, but when you are in charge of OTHER PEOPLE"S children, you have to make rules that all of them will fall under. Generally speaking, kids this age tend to fall into 2 categories; fearless and fearful. They do not have a mature understanding of just what can happen if they screw up. The fearless tend to do things without thinking about them, like climb up a fifty foot tree not thinking about how to get down. The fearful are scared at the start of things they make up ion there head, sometimes that don't make any sense to an adult.
Children at 6 and 7 are just starting to gain physical skills to compete or perform athletic skills. These develop way before mental skills such as risk assessment. IMO, you are asking for trouble. Just the fact that you are asking on the internet tells me that you are not confident in your own judgement of this situation.
Josh
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cracklover
Sep 14, 2007, 2:18 PM
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wiki wrote: The great thing is though, they aren't going to have to make decisions for themselves on this trip because we are going to be watching very closely (especially after posting on rc.com!). The kids probably won't be aware of it but it will be out of their hands - I am lucky to have amazingly competent instructors under me who can take action in less than a second to prevent things from going wrong. They are really on to it and have the experience to recognize things before they happen.
You obviously knew what you wanted to hear and had made up your mind before you posted. But it's a terrible idea. You understand what the "lead" in "lead climbing" stands for, right? It stands for "leader". Whether you realize it or not, you're asking 6 year olds to make life and death leadership decisions. You say you've got folks who can jump in within a second to fix an issue that comes up. That's a lie. Once you're up on the wall leading, you are the leader, and you're responsible for your safety. Only way to help you out at that point is to set up a rescue scenario, and if you think you can do that in one second, you're delusional.
How long does it take a six year old to free-fall fifty feet to the deck? Same amount as an adult.
You do this, and you will have documented your stupidity online for the world (and the courts) to see.
Good luck!
GO
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angry
Sep 14, 2007, 2:38 PM
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Yeah, GO is right. Don't let a 6 year old lead.
I had 40 of them a year for the last several years. I know 6 year olds. That's 120 total 6 year olds that have come into my gym. Every one of them I got to know as a person, strengths, weaknesses, maturity level.
Of that group, there was exactly one who would understand the ramifications of a lead. One!!! When tested his IQ was something like 2 standard deviations above the norm. Get it, he was smarter than pretty much... the whole country. Still, he was a little kid.
This is a horrible idea. 10 year olds leading in a gym or closely bolted sport routes, OK, 6 year olds leading anything. Have you ever heard of the term Developmentally Appropriate? Look it up.
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whoa
Sep 14, 2007, 3:02 PM
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at least they'll die doing something you love.
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lhwang
Sep 14, 2007, 3:04 PM
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freedan wrote: You should read a little on developmental pyschology. A 6 year old may be physically able to lead climb and may do just fine on a straightforward route with no complications but they do not have the cognitive ability to problem solve when things get tough.
I think this is a good point. A kid is not a little adult.
Other posters have pointed out situations where very young children were leading, but I imagine that's probably the exception rather than the rule. I see plenty of 6-year olds who still have trouble tying their shoes!
When I lead climb, I know that there is a chance I could get hurt and I accept that risk. I'm not sure a 6-year old would be able to understand that risk... essentially an issue of informed consent, in my mind.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 14, 2007, 3:33 PM
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lhwang wrote: ... A kid is not a little adult.
Bingo!
In reply to: I'm not sure a 6-year old would be able to understand that risk... essentially an issue of informed consent, in my mind.
A child cannot legally accept the risk, which is why a parent must sign a waiver. I cannot imagine any parent accepting that risk for their 6 year old unless they haven't a clue about what they are getting into.
Josh
Josh
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clee03m
Sep 14, 2007, 7:47 PM
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I also think that legally, you wouldn't be able to defend yourself no matter what waver parents signed. 12 juries (I'm assuming you are in the states) + little 6 year old Joe hurt = you are toast. Angry parents (even if they signed a waver--if their little one is hurt, they are going to be angry) may decide to be vindictive and go after your personal asset. And how about your insurance--do they know you plan on taking 6 year olds out for a lead sport climb? If opinion is so divided among climbers, there is no way the general public would be understanding or forgiving. It is not worth it.
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mikitta
Sep 14, 2007, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: If opinion is so divided among climbers, there is no way the general public would be understanding or forgiving. It is not worth it.
I don't think the opinions given here have been very divided. Mostly it has been an emphatic "NO" for this situation.
I have given a caveat to this NO and it has the conditions that any particular child have a mentor who is experienced and competent and that the child themself be exceptional and mentally mature enough to take on the role of lead climber - which honestly covers a total of 3 children specifically mentioned in this thread :p (I'm counting 3 - Kopischka's two girls and Chris ___ can't remember the last name, that JT mentioned).
It really is NOT a good idea, especially the first time out, even with a 3:1 student to instructor ratio. There is WAY to much left to chance when you are talking about bitty ones. And 6 is still a baby (ask any mom or dad). Just one that can talk well and recite their ABC's and in some cases add and subtract fairly well.
God Bless,
mik
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gat
Sep 14, 2007, 8:08 PM
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Has there been a change in etiquette on the rockclimbing forum? I've not been here in a while so perhaps I am out of the loop; but I am astounded that the TROLL whistle has not been blown.
Wiki, I apologize if you are sincere...and in which case I beg you, please do not allow 6 year olds to lead climb.
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joek
Sep 14, 2007, 8:34 PM
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I'm going to have to add my NO to the chorus.
Quick story - I used to work at a nature reserve where I was fortunate enough to take kids on all kinds of cool adventures. Hiking, caving, canoeing, etc. I was leading one canoe trip on a flat, slow, "safe" river. One boat with three 5th graders in it flipped in a bad spot, where there was a large snag - a big debris pile of logs in the river. The canoe went into the snag, got dragged under the snag and was never seen again. Fortunately, somehow, all the kids were ok. Had we not been so lucky, one of those kids very easily could have gone under with the canoe. About once a week I think of this incident, and a chill goes down my spine and I thank God things happened the way they did. I can't imagine living with the guilt of having been responsible for a childs death. Moral of the story - even on what you think is safe, easy ground, you never know.
Managing kids is never easy, and the degree of risk involved in lead climbing is just too great, especially with six year olds. My hope is that you have an incredible trip taking these kids top roping, and that their parents then get involved and teach them to lead.
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cracklover
Sep 14, 2007, 8:55 PM
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mikitta wrote: In reply to: If opinion is so divided among climbers, there is no way the general public would be understanding or forgiving. It is not worth it. I don't think the opinions given here have been very divided. Mostly it has been an emphatic "NO" for this situation.
You don't think so? Then you didn't read the responses.
JAB wrote: The younger the better!
abock33 wrote: Go for it. You're teaching the next Caldwell, Hill and Sharma.
overlord wrote: definitely not too young, but you do need to keep an eye on them
bizarrodrinker wrote: But if its very heavily supervised (like a person for each belayer) I would say go for it.
stefanohatari wrote: If the answers are yes, then go for it.
That's all just from the first page.
GO
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gat
Sep 14, 2007, 9:03 PM
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I'd be curious to know...of those who support the idea, how many actually have/had kids that age?
The idea sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, I am the father of two boys (five and seven). Far be it from me to proclaim my parenting prowess; but I don't think the idea is even remotely sane.
Anyone out there with kids that supports the idea? Speak up. Perhaps I am the crazy one, but I'll reserve that decision until someone can rationally argue why it's not crazy with a capital C.
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on_belay_hombre
Sep 14, 2007, 9:09 PM
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I've seen mock leading mentioned several times on this thread so far. This seems to me to be the ultimate compromise. Your kids get to learn about leading outside with the safety of a top rope in case something does go wrong.
We've all known plenty of adults, when learning to lead, who have gotten nervous (some even panic) on the sharp end...and they (well...most) have the mental development to make a life/death decision if need be. Like someone else said, with some exceptions, children that age cannot be expected to do the same, the concept is just not fully understood.
Even if you had a child within your group who showed the mental maturity to lead and make those calls, in a group of several it would not be fair to let the one kid lead and not the others. The safest bet again, is mock leading...seriously, everyone wins and everyone will have fun. Bring candy as a plan B...
Just because we all get a rush out of being two body lengths (or even a few feet) above our pro doesnt mean the kids will...especially every kid in your group.
Hope its a good outing...
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mikitta
Sep 14, 2007, 9:16 PM
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Cracklover :)
I'm aware of the YES answers - however, they are MOSTLY overwhelmed with the NO's. If we were able to poll climbers across this country, I think we would see an overwhelming majority come down on the side of discretion as well. Certainly there would be those who were all for it, but they, like the few in this thread for it, would be in the minority.
Now, if the issue were evenly split you would be correct .
In answer to who has kids ...
I do :P little *coughchoke*darlings*coughchoke* that they are - well, for other people they are little angels, just for me they are brats LOL. 8 and almost 10. No WAY would I allow either of them to attempt leading right now because neither one of them has the impulse control of even a coker spanial. At least they are far smarter than the dog (my son can detail to you how the engine of an ATV works and how to operate said machine, and my daughter is very gifted in art and has a great head for math as well as language on her shoulders). However, even if they were both very proficient at rock climbing at this age - which they aren't - neither one of them is mature enough to make the kinds of decisions that a lead climber MUST make on the way up the rock and at the top of the rout.
I think that there are a very few, very exceptional kids who COULD do that - and there have been some who HAVE. But even if Wiki's class of munchkins are all relatively exceptional, in a class/group situation like this there is just too much chaos potential. Each child should be evaluated for that potential outside a group setting and preferably by parents.
If their parents don't climb, then really, what is the injustice in making them wait till they are of an age to accept that kind of responsibility? 20 years old seems ancient even to a teen ager, but it comes around pretty darn quick in the grand scheme of things.
God Bless,
mik
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dreadlock
Sep 14, 2007, 9:34 PM
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I briefly coached a climbing team and my two cents is this is much to young an age for most to lead climb. Small kids have a lot of trouble clipping as their hands are not big enough to go around the biners and just mentally their not ready for this. Seems a huge liability risk to me. In competition climbing you must be 14 in order to lead and that's inside in a controlled environment . Outside there are so many more variables.
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cracklover
Sep 14, 2007, 9:41 PM
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Mikkita, I don't think you understand the meaning of the word divided.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
di·vid·ed /dɪˈvaɪdɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-vahy-did] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. separated; separate.
2. disunited.
3. shared; apportioned.
4. (of a leaf) cut into distinct portions by incisions extending to the midrib or base.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
di·vid·ed (dĭ-vī'dĭd) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Separated into parts or pieces.
2. Being in a state of disagreement or disunity: a divided nation.
3. Moved by conflicting interests, emotions, or activities: divided loyalties.
4. Separated by distance: a child divided from her familiar surroundings.
5. Having the lanes for opposing traffic separated: divided highways.
6. Botany Having indentations extending to the midrib or base and forming distinct lobes: divided leaves.
This is an important lesson. Even the most serious, even the most *obvious* questions, asked on rc.com will have answers - often *many* answers - that are horribly, dangerously, wrong or misguided. It's important to acknowledge that. Because not until you do, can you begin to learn to sort the wheat from the chaff. And without that skill, all answers here are useless.
GO
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desertwanderer81
Sep 14, 2007, 9:55 PM
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I am still confused why you would take kids lead climbing outside first? Why not do it indoors a bunch of times where you can find out who is up for it, and who is not?
Then for the few kids who actually ready, take them out with 1 on 1 instruction.
And why not top rope outside first?
Every kid I've ever taken out was THRILLED to just be on a cliff! Being on the rock is a huge rush for them, I don't see why you have to take them out leading right off the bat?
The lack of these two things blow me away.....
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mikitta
Sep 14, 2007, 9:56 PM
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A group of 10 people in which 9 agree on something and one disents, is MOSTLY unified. Are they divided? Yes, 9 against 1. However, they are mostly unified ... 9 against 1. 9 against 1 would constitute a consensus.
In this discussion, how many have been in favor of the youngsters leading and how many have been against? Certainly there is division - however we are MOSTLY unified in the answer of NO, this is not a good idea. Can we reasonably say there is a CONSENSUS that it's a bad idea? If so, the small amount of division is negligible.
God Bless,
mik
(This post was edited by mikitta on Sep 14, 2007, 10:14 PM)
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desertwanderer81
Sep 14, 2007, 10:08 PM
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mikitta wrote: A group of 10 people in which 9 agree on something and one consents, is MOSTLY unified. Are they divided? Yes, 9 against 1. However, they are mostly unified ... 9 against one. 9 against 1 would constitute a consensus. In this discussion, how many have been in favor of the youngsters leading and how many have been against? Certainly there is division - however we are MOSTLY unified in the answer of NO, this is not a good idea. Can we reasonably say there is a CONSENSUS that it's a bad idea? If so, the small amount of division is negligible. God Bless, mik
I personally think that the way this person is doing this is a bad idea.....taking a whole group out like that with no experience outdoors or on lead? Not good.
However if they take their time and do it right and weed out the ones too imature wouldn't be terrible.
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wiki
Sep 14, 2007, 11:32 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I am still confused why you would take kids lead climbing outside first? Why not do it indoors a bunch of times where you can find out who is up for it, and who is not? Then for the few kids who actually ready, take them out with 1 on 1 instruction. And why not top rope outside first? Every kid I've ever taken out was THRILLED to just be on a cliff! Being on the rock is a huge rush for them, I don't see why you have to take them out leading right off the bat? The lack of these two things blow me away.....
This is not their first time on lead - they have been lead climbing in the gym for 6 months or so now.
I am sure it will be a fantastic trip for them even if it is toprope only climbing Which after all your advice it almost definately will be (though I will see how they go)
Thank you.
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desertwanderer81
Sep 14, 2007, 11:40 PM
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wiki wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: I am still confused why you would take kids lead climbing outside first? Why not do it indoors a bunch of times where you can find out who is up for it, and who is not? Then for the few kids who actually ready, take them out with 1 on 1 instruction. And why not top rope outside first? Every kid I've ever taken out was THRILLED to just be on a cliff! Being on the rock is a huge rush for them, I don't see why you have to take them out leading right off the bat? The lack of these two things blow me away..... This is not their first time on lead - they have been lead climbing in the gym for 6 months or so now. I am sure it will be a fantastic trip for them even if it is toprope only climbing Which after all your advice it almost definately will be (though I will see how they go) Thank you.
Sounds like a good, safe plan. After two years I'm sure these kids will be leading 5.11's on trad!....just maybe need some time to mature first ;)
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photonicgirl
Sep 17, 2007, 3:31 PM
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Agreed!
Do not let children lead climb! Children don't have the mental maturity to know what will happen if they fall. You, on the other hand, should have this information already.
What does it prove to risk a child's life?
Jules
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jgloporto
Sep 17, 2007, 8:15 PM
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wiki wrote: I am sure it will be a fantastic trip for them even if it is toprope only climbing Which after all your advice it almost definately will be (though I will see how they go) Thank you.
I'm telling you... aid climbing. Hard runout aid routes. I'm sober now, and I still think that's the way to go.
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Myxomatosis
Sep 17, 2007, 11:39 PM
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So how did the trip go?
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frdfntn
Sep 23, 2007, 4:05 PM
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sorry, rookie here
anyway in considering enrolling my 6yr in a class, the thought that she could be lead climbing in 6mnths seems absurd to me. now i am not a climber but i have had enough backwoods, backcountry adventure to understand the commitement and disciplin to stay safe in an unsafe environment. If my children can safely lead by the time the reach they're teens, it would seem to me exceptional. when both kids blew us away last ski season at the local hill, we didn't take them right of into the backcountry onto 60deg slopes. we certainly did up the challenge a little though.
just one dads perspective.
(This post was edited by frdfntn on Sep 23, 2007, 4:10 PM)
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exalien
Sep 24, 2007, 12:28 AM
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My daughter's been leading sport routes since she was six. Her first lead was a 5.8 and now at the age of fourteen she redpoints 13b and onsights 12c, even a long way out from her pro. As for trad climbing, her motivation pushed her to learn all about placing gear and she's pretty comfortable up to easy 5.12. In other words, show and teach them everything they want to learn. Just don't push them, they'll make the decisions about what they want to climb and when they're ready. And teach them how to belay! It's the first thing they should learn, whether 6 or 60. (use a grigri)
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