So the gym near my house doesnt tie you into your harness with a figure 8 knot. They clip you in with a steel autolocking biner instead to your belay loop.

Any of your places do this? They dont even let me tie in correctly. Frustrates me cause now I dont want to take my own harness.

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight. So with top roping if the belayer has the rope fairly tight the whole time then there should be no issue but I personally would not trust it any sort of a dynamic fall.

That statement just made my evening. You'reThis is a funny dudethread, dude.

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

My climbing partner ties his figure 8 also in his belay loop.

Reasons?

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)
- he doesn't want a big chunky knot close to his body, he likes it floating around more
- a lot of people start discussions with him why he does this, you know, the 'one more link to break in the chain of links which have to save your life in case of a dynamic fall

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Ok then so why is it that we would tie our figure 8 into both loops not just the belay loop afterall there must be a reason why every recognized guiding outfit in the world does it this way. That is my point. GYMS SHOULD NOT USE BEANERS IN BELAY LOOPS.

Have you ever seen harnesses with JUST ONE LOOP?

You know, the harnesses the gyms typically use for rentals b/c they have more size-adjustablility?

On those harnesses you TIE IN AND BELAY from the same loop of reinforced webbing.

Or maybe you have heard of alpine harnesses? they don't have a "belay loop".

Rest assured, both are perfectly safe.



The bottom line: a standard sport/trad harness comes with a belay loop for belaiyng, and the manufacturers recommend tying your figure 8 through two loops, not through the belay loop-- a recommendation you should follow.

HOWEVER, it is perfectly safe to tie in to the belay loop if you are inclined to do so on some occasions. It is also perfectly safe to clip a figure-8-on-a-bight to your belay loop via a locking 'biner and climb that way. It introduces an unnecessary extra link into the system, and that 'biner can be annoying, but it is a standard practice in many gyms.

um...

the reason you don't tie into your belay loop is not because it isn't strong enough.

(just for reference, since this particular thread seems to be about blowing bull shit out of our noses and calling it breathing, you might want to read this: http://www.bdel.com/...ch_harness%20WEB.pdf)

you'll find that harness manufacturers typically send out their gear with INSTRUCTIONS on how to use them. if you were to read the above, you would find that in the case of this particular, common harness, the belay loop is rated to 15kN, which is greater than the maximum theoretical force sustained in a lead fall. (i can post an explicit reference if you'd like, or you can take it on faith that this information is deep in the annals of John Long's Anchors, 2nd ed.)

perhaps another compelling reason to not tie-in to the belay loop is the fact that THIS IS WHAT THE MANUFACTURER SAYS TO DO. if you were to read the above documentation, you would also discover that the manufacturer states that the belay loop is to be used for belay devices only.

an interesting aside: the manufacturer also states that in rescue situations, a locking carabiner can be clipped directly into the belay loop. but wait, i thought the belay loop wasn't strong enough for these "dynamic" forces?!

so why do we only tie in to the tie-in points and belay from the belay loop then, if you could just as easily tie in to the belay loop?

1. clipping in like at the gym mentioned by the OP leads to complacency.

2. it's one more failure point in the system (and i'm not talking about the belay loop. your body will snap before that thing will. i'm talking about a potentially unlocked, cross-loaded carabiner, that might not be made of steel.)

3. it's more organized. all of your ropes are attached to your tie-ins, all of your hardware/belay devices to your belay loop. better organized means less chance of a fatal clusterfuck.

4. it is less wear on the belay loop. software-on-software causes more wear than hardware-on-software (all things being equal. don't spew on me about some sharp carabiner, etc.) why is this important? because when you clip an atc in to the belay loop, it's a single attachment point that could fail. it would be nice if it were in the best condition possible to avoid this unpleasant (and rather unlikely) eventuality.

(ps. if anyone yells todd skinner i may smack them. the wings didn't fall off the airplane, the pilot made an error. please note: no offense to todd skinner. i'm just saying this is an apples-and-oranges thing and that the circumstances surrounding his incident are not reason to lose faith in the belay loop.)

My climbing partner ties his figure 8 also in his belay loop.

Reasons?

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)

It really should not be problem except that the belay loop is not rated for a dynamic fall. It is really only for static weight.

OMG !!!!!!!!

Quick, somebody tell that to Petzl, BD, Misty Mtn, Singing Rock, Arcteryx etc. This is important new insight into harness construction and use.

And Majid. Definitely let Majid know.

My climbing partner ties his figure 8 also in his belay loop.

Reasons?

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)
- he doesn't want a big chunky knot close to his body, he likes it floating around more
- a lot of people start discussions with him why he does this, you know, the 'one more link to break in the chain of links which have to save your life in case of a dynamic fall

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)

- he doesn't want a big chunky knot close to his body, he likes it floating around more

big chunky knot close to his body

- a lot of people start discussions with him why he does this, you know, the 'one more link to break in the chain of links which have to save your life in case of a dynamic fall

My climbing partner ties his figure 8 also in his belay loop.

Reasons?

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)
- he doesn't want a big chunky knot close to his body, he likes it floating around more
- a lot of people start discussions with him why he does this, you know, the 'one more link to break in the chain of links which have to save your life in case of a dynamic fall

My climbing partner ties his figure 8 also in his belay loop.

Reasons?

- less wear on the harness. (leg loops are the first to wear, long before the belay loop does)

Learn to bowline, then.
This sentence just doesn't make sense.

This sentence just doesn't make sense.

And "Learn to bowline" does?

Jay

Come on. Somone respond to me. I was having fun in this thread.

Well, that's a perfectly acceptable solution. I thought you made perfect sense when you said learn to bowline, it seems implicit that if there is only one thing named the bowline involved in climbing, then learning to tie such a knot is to "learn to bowline."

the bowline is not some kind of line-dance that one can learn the moves to.

it is a basic knot, the basis of which other knots may also be tied... a specific technique of rope usage if you will. You may learn to tie it, you may learn when its use is appropriate, however you will never "learn to bowline".

Ah yes, I forgot that the usage of colloquialisms on internet forums is strictly taboo... I acknowledge that the exact nature of what "learning to bowline" truly entails is hazy at best; yet, we're on an internet forum so forgive me for not being overly proper- and it seems rather evident that to learn to bowline is to learn to tie the knot. The appropriate usage of the knot can only be understood when many factors such as the knot's strength, efficiency and the ease with which the knot may be inspected for correctness are taken into account.

You are no doubt going to attack me for what I've said here. I've no interest in getting to an e-pissing contest with you, though.

Well, that's a perfectly acceptable solution. I thought you made perfect sense when you said learn to bowline, it seems implicit that if there is only one thing named the bowline involved in climbing, then learning to tie such a knot is to "learn to bowline."

Let's all get a little realistic here. Steel biners are ridiculously strong. Minor axis strength, usually the weakest, is usually above or around 10kn. You aren't going to go even close to the breaking strength of one of those pretty much no matter how hard you try in a gym. You aren't.

It's far faster to clip some guy in with a 'biner than it is to tie someone in properly. Slightly, less safe, granted, but far faster when you're dealing with large quantities of people.

I'm in the all-gyms-which-clip-you-in-with-'biner--instead-of-using-a-proper-knot-and-require-you-to-use-a-grigri-to-belay-because-it's-"safer"-so-you-don't-learn-how-to-properly-belay-or-tie-an-f'ing-knot-for-the-life-of-you-should-f***-off-and-die camp as much as the next guy. But seriously. It isn't going to break.

Except that isn't how English works. "Learn to bowline" no more means "learn to tie a bowline" than "learn to shoe" means "learn to put on a shoe", or "learn to car" means "learn to drive."

Jay

Meh.
We used to tie in with a biner to the belay loop all the time back in the day.
I don't remember anyone ever having an issue.

'Course the followthru fig 8 through the leg and waist loops adds a little redundancy, saves a biner and also has never been a significant cause of injuries that weren't pilot error either.

One thing that has been around since the inception of climbing though: Safety Snobs. Yeah, they way you know is the right way, and everyone else is dangerous.

They should make a bud light commercial highlighting that "We salute YOU, Mr My Way is the only way you won't die, climber"

Edit: Not aimed at you naked dude...

You are te_h ghey.
And your bud advert is lame.
Go away.

I think we need a Hadrians Wall for the internet.
Stop the drunk Scots from spilling over into civilization.

Drunk? get to feck. I'm at work.
Also, everyone knows that the scot's just let hadrians wall be.
it was a "you stay your side of the wall and not enter scotland, and we'll pretend that puny wall could stop US."
Ain't sympathy a bitch?

It was pretty puny wasn't it?

Some spots weren't 3ft tall. Haha.
Perhaps we thought you'd all be so drunk you'd trip over it and pass out

Like learn to fist does not mean learn how to punch some dude inna face?

Meh.
We used to tie in with a biner to the belay loop all the time back in the day.

Wow, what a generation gap.

Limey, I'm guessing your from the UK, then?
Where abouts, and where abouts in NC are you?

Sweet. I've been around scotland for the last 8 or 9 years. I'm heading over the chapel hill for a for months some time this year (was ment to be for the month of augest and a bit of sept, but now I'm out of school so later= cheaper and more conviniant).
Ive yet to get on grit :-/

Just give me a shout when you come out.
There's a good Irish pub and plenty of good climbing to be had.

Let's all get a little realistic here. Steel biners are ridiculously strong. Minor axis strength, usually the weakest, is usually above or around 10kn. You aren't going to go even close to the breaking strength of one of those pretty much no matter how hard you try in a gym. You aren't.

Many accidents have occurred due to a single attachment 'biner accidentally unclipping from the harness. That is why two lockers (reversed and opposed) should be used instead of one.

Tying-in is ideal, but you can't expect new gym patrons to be adept enough to tie a proper figure-eigth or worse yet a proper bowline if it's their first time climbing. Let's not forget that climbing gyms, especially privately established ones (read: not at university rec centres), probably make most of their money from group sessions, not from their members. Clipping in is much easier to inspect than tying in. My gym uses autolocking biners that would likely remain closed through many bumps and twists.

My gym uses autolocking biners that would likely remain closed through many bumps and twists.

But when a birthday session is in for 2 hours are your gonna make the kids the learn to to tie-in and belay with an ATC, showing enough proficiency to pass a belay check? No, you aren't, unless you want that to be the last group that ever comes in. From a business perpective it makes absolutely no sense.

No no, I meant that kids are generally clipped in to ropes attached to autolocking biners because untying a figure eight, which they don't know how to tie in the first place, would probably result in the kids requiring staff assistance as well, so the autolocking biners are used for easy in easy out.

...Kids neither understand the mechanics of the attachment, nor the consequences of failing to do it correctly, nor have the judgment to know whether they've clipped in correctly or not.
...

Like learn to fist does not mean learn how to punch some dude inna face?

Id rather not take my own harness because 1) That will wear out your belay loop quicker, 2) The belay loop is designed to belay.. not take hard falls.

I'm not worried about it since I'm just TR'ing, but id rather not use improper technique in my harness. Ill save the mileage and wear out their belay loops instead.