I'm building up my rack, and sifting through the forums found that CCH Aliens are still iffy post-recall.
My question to the forum is what's the next best thing to Aliens? I'm leaning towards Master cams - I understand it's never going to be the same, but I'd rather sacrifice the features for top-not quality control... TIA!
....ready for it? [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/Basilisk613/RCsearch.jpg[/IMG]
Nice handwriting! If you read my post, I posted after searching through, just doing a survey since Master Cams are relatively new, does not hurt to get the latest consensus...
I really like my Wild Country (long stem) Zeros 3-6, but then, I aid climb. The stem feels pretty floppy for stuffing in, but that is also their big advantage. I also like my old style Trango flex cams (NOT splitter kind, these are now sold by Rock Empire) They are quite narrow, but have a stiffer stem than Zeros.
I personally think aliens are still the best small cam out there and have a couple new ones that have caught falls. I trust them more than others because of their high flexibility, and soft cam lobe metal that will bite into nearly anything. They also don't walk and can fit nearly anywhere. Metolius' cams are also very nice. I own lots of tcus and I think they are great too, as are the master cams. Aliens are still my favs though and I recommend them.
I would give the Aliens a chance, just make sure you test them. Design of Aliens is the best, the way company is run is not. If you can get your hands on an old Aliens that would be best but newer improved aliens are even better than old ones.
CCH's tensile testing is a joke! It's not dynamic!
I climb with a friend's Aliens all the time. I think I'll insist on using my BDs and WCs now. He's not going to like it by a long shot, but I don't want broken legs!
(This post was edited by anarkhos on Nov 2, 2008, 7:08 PM)
You know, the more I think about this, the more apprehensive I get.
I'm no metallurgest, but I do know from experience that it is devilishly difficult to weld, solder, or braze cable. There is a reason why all cable rigging (outside of cch) is done with crimps and bolts! Welding would be a lot cheaper/faster/easier than bolting or crimping, so it if worked we would see it everywhere. I don't recall seeing it outside of electronics and jewlery. A brazed e-brake cable wouldn't last long, I'll guarantee you that!
Do any other protection manufacturers braze or weld cables?
This is making Aliens look as secure as my laptop power connector, which suffers from the same problem.
Does anybody think CCH knows WTF they're doing? I'd like to be proven wrong since I foresee a confrontation over this issue at a crag in the near future. The whole static test pull video...I mean WTF?
I have a bunch of Aliens but I have stopped buying them since the failures. I have bought a couple of the new new Metolius Master cams. They are every bit as good as the Aliens and you don't have to worry when they are the only pieces between your ass and the grass. Like aliens, the head of the cam is narrow and they have a single stem, so you can get them in those places where Camalots just won't fit.
As an aside, I bought a couple of the Black Diamond C3s and I think they stink.
Pssttt..... The UIAA spec for cam testing and certification is a slow pull, and that's how pretty much everyone tests them.
I would love to hear the rationale for this.
Do they think the dynamic pull of the rope is going to eliminate shock and metal fatigue? I'm not expecting pro to be elastic, but let's take a simple example of brazing vs crimping two ends of cable together for a nut. Are you really going to trust such a piece based on static load testing?
You might want to go check out some rigging suppliers.... Lifting cables are often spelter sockets (poured molten zinc), not crimps/swages since a spelter socket can yield 100% of the rated strength of the cable (unlike crimps and most swages). A brazed connection can also be good, if done right.
Point taken, but the forces applied to this joint are linear in nature, plus when you pour the metal into the post it will evenly adhere. This isn't the case when brazing wire with flux and a torch.
Even the metolius joint is linear because it's on a pivot.
From the website, it looks like Master Cams have slightly less range than Aliens. Have people experienced this? Is it enough to be an issue?
I'm also thinking of getting either Aliens or Master Cams; I find that my friend's Aliens place better in shallower cracks than the smaller C4s I bought, and I don't happen to (personally) know any experienced climbers that have used both.
From the website, it looks like Master Cams have slightly less range than Aliens. Have people experienced this? Is it enough to be an issue?
It's incredibly aggravating actually. They actually pretty much suck compared to aliens. I only say this after extensively using both.
For smallish cams that aren't aliens, I'd just get the .3, .4. and .5 C4's. Nothing special but there's nothing inherently suck about them either. That does leave you with some choices smaller though.
The smallest and second smallest master cams have a much narrower head than the black and blue aliens. They might be better, then again, a C3 might be the more logical answer if you're looking for a narrow head.
To date, there is no replacement for aliens. There are options but nothing on their level yet. Just get new aliens and bounce test them, it's not that complicated.
I think the WC zero has a crimped end that is then wedged into a steel head. That's what it looks like. If CCH used this with their superior design, it would restore most people's faith I believe.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I really want to like Aliens. The pre-recall ones I've used are awesome.
You're giving a bit of advice I've heard before, but I wonder about it. Has anyone out there personally seen an alien fail a bounce test? I'm wondering how any amount of jumping up and down I could do would approach the force of a 15' fall.
Maybe one of the math guys could chime in with real numbers but from what I understand you could easily reach those forces.
If you are in on a piece of nylon webbing and create a 2-3ft nearly static fall, it's probably an equal or higher force than you'd exert on normal 15-30ft whipper on a dynamic rope.
I don't have the numbers or equations for you, but I'm sure enough digging would produce them.
From the website, it looks like Master Cams have slightly less range than Aliens. Have people experienced this? Is it enough to be an issue?
It's incredibly aggravating actually. They actually pretty much suck compared to aliens. I only say this after extensively using both.
My experience is the same as Angry's.
So my primary rack is still all (older) Aliens in the small range. When I need a second set of cams, I do sometimes use TCUs. But for certain placements, any dual-axle cam (including BD's 3CU) just aren't optimal.
Also, it's not rocket science to test your cams. I've tested approximately two dozen Aliens with a 3-4 kN fuse.
First time I've posted this footage. Here's a test of a blue Alien:
By the way, I didn't vote, because I would never urge anyone to buy Aliens without the very strong caveat that they should trust them only as much as they test them.
As for the Master Cam - I'd rather use absolutely anything (aside from an untested dimpled Alien) first. I think the design of the placement of the trigger wires on those things is retarded. The way they behave in horizontals is bordering on seriously dangerous.
I vote for Aliens IF you do ANY or PLAN to do any aid climbing. Accept no substitute. If you're not planning on placing in horizontally driven pin scars in the Valley and you feel more comfortable with the Masters. I'd go for them instead. Personally... Aliens all the way, but I wouldn't whine over being handed a rack the Masters and told to lead a pitch (unless I was on a wall). In that case I whine no matter what.
I vote for Aliens IF you do ANY or PLAN to do any aid climbing. Accept no substitute. If you're not planning on placing in horizontally driven pin scars in the Valley and you feel more comfortable with the Masters. I'd go for them instead. Personally... Aliens all the way, but I wouldn't whine over being handed a rack the Masters and told to lead a pitch (unless I was on a wall). In that case I whine no matter what.
No. The rope was just used to lift up the rock. The rope is pretty irrelevant. I just happened to have lots of bodies around for this test. In other tests, I've just lifted the rock by hand.
I have a set of aliens and bought a #3, #4, and a #5 Mastercam earlier this summer. After giving them a try I have to say I agree with Angry and Cracklover's comments on them. Mastercams will do the job, but given the choice I would grab an alien first off my rack.
A few friends that have used my rack have made similar observations.
One of my female partners said, "The Mastercams are prettier then the Aliens just hanging off your rack, but not in the crack."
(This post was edited by Jbitz on Nov 4, 2008, 3:40 PM)
chill. what wasn't clear (and this probably just stemmed from what i was expecting when you linked the video) was what/how the fuse was set up. thats all. just differing expectations- nobody was right or wrong. thats why i asked.
chill. what wasn't clear (and this probably just stemmed from what i was expecting when you linked the video) was what/how the fuse was set up. thats all. just differing expectations- nobody was right or wrong. thats why i asked.
I am chill. I just don't get what part you weren't clear about.
The basic point is to make a fuse out of a material with a known breaking strength, and then exceed that strength.
The video is simply a documentation of me doing that with my cams. This is not meant as instruction or advocacy. But just for the sake of clarity, here's what I did:
Put a spectra sling around a big rock (~40 lbs). Haul big rock above the cam with ~ 2 feet of static material plus fuse connecting them. Make sure the Alien is in a good placement that doesn't stress the stem. Drop the rock.
So the attachment is: rock -> spectra sling -> biner -> nylon fuse -> biner -> alien. Then factor 2 the rock onto the alien. When dropped, the nylon fuse breaks, unless the placement was poor, in which case, the alien rips out. Or, of course, if there's a manufacturing defect, the cam itself would fail, but I haven't seen that yet.
The fuse I used in my first set of tests was: PMI 3mm Tech Cord. They rate it with a minimum breaking strength of 1.7kN. I made a loop of it tied with a double fishermans. If the MBS is exact, it should fail at just about 3kN. Though if there's a safety margin on the cord, It might put as much as 4kN of force on the cam before failing. It usually failed at the knot.
For my second set of tests I found a 3mm tech cord from Sterling, rated with an MBS of 2.6kN (perfect!) A loop of that should get me a force of around 4.5-5.5kN.
By the way, the biner on the cam takes very little abuse, but all the other gear takes plenty (because it hits the ground with the rock). After a few test rounds, with a big rock falling on it, the spectra sling and the biner attaching it to the fuse (which fall to the ground each time) were pretty beat up. After about 10 tests, the spectra sling finally gave up the ghost completely. So if you feel like playing along these lines, don't use your favorite gear. Oh, and the cams look great after the test. Certainly some fairly deep gouges in the lobes if they're set up against a crystal but nothing troubling.
Again, I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS METHOD TO TEST YOUR CAMS! The above is merely a description of what I did. If you do the above, you do so on your own terms. The above may kill you, your family, and your dog.
Someone from Gunks.com just sent me a new Golden Spiral cam for destructive testing, and it actually looks like a decent option. I'll be doing a full write-up sometime soon, but here's the skinny....
The one I have in front of me is the Purple, which is ~Green Alien size, but with a slightly smaller range of 13.2 - 19.4mm (Green Alien is 13-22mm). The head is a bit wider as well, measuring 1.687" compared to the Alien 1.380". Part of this looks to be due to the wider cam lobes.... Green Alien lobes are .200" wide and these are .238". The stem is super-flexy 5/32" 7x19 cable, same as the Alien. Springs are normal torsion springs located between the lobes rather than the Alien internal flat torsion springs. Trigger mechanism is similar to the Master Cams, with a pair of wires connecting an upper plate connected to the lobes and a lower trigger plate. Their patented return spring on the upper plate seems to work nicely for remedying the occasional binding problem Aliens get when the balls on the wires to the cam lobes get stuck in the upper plate, thereby preventing the lobes from expanding properly.
The big thing though, is that the stem is swaged into the head; not brazed like the Alien and therefore should avoid the underlying issues with Alien reliability.
Anyway, the full writeup with pics, video of the pull test and pics of disassembly should be coming in the next week or so....
Oh, and personally I'm quite fond of Zeros....
-a.
Just thought this was worth pointing out. US Rock Gear seemed to think so too, on their homepage: "Working on CE and UIAA certification." I wouldn't buy a thing from them till they actually attain certification, personally.
And I'll just reiterate my mantra one more time, though I'm sure a lot of "trad" climbers still won't get it:
Whatever gear you buy and place, this is trad climbing - you're responsible for your own safety. Not me, not the gear manufacturers. You. (And your partner).
And I'll just reiterate my mantra one more time, though I'm sure a lot of "trad" climbers still won't get it:
Whatever gear you buy and place, this is trad climbing - you're responsible for your own safety. Not me, not the gear manufacturers. You. (And your partner).
If you don't like it, don't leave the ground.
GO
So you wouldn't mind if, for instance, Alien had decided not to do a recall on their cams? If they decided it's your responsibility, you would be cool with that? You would PREFER to be responsible for this? Seems to me the manufacturer definitely needs to be responsible for their product.... Placement of their product is up to you, but quality control still needs to be maintained.
And I'll just reiterate my mantra one more time, though I'm sure a lot of "trad" climbers still won't get it:
Whatever gear you buy and place, this is trad climbing - you're responsible for your own safety. Not me, not the gear manufacturers. You. (And your partner).
If you don't like it, don't leave the ground.
GO
So you wouldn't mind if, for instance, Alien had decided not to do a recall on their cams? If they decided it's your responsibility, you would be cool with that? You would PREFER to be responsible for this? Seems to me the manufacturer definitely needs to be responsible for their product.... Placement of their product is up to you, but quality control still needs to be maintained.
Nope, you misunderstand me. The gear company also has a responsibility. Of course I would prefer if CCH had been better about their own responsibility. Frankly, I think they pretty much suck on that front.
But that's neither here nor there. If I leave the ground, whether I'm carrying BD, Metolius, CCH, some gear I made in my own shop in the basement, or some cheap knockoff from a former-soviet block country... it's my choice. It's my choice, and it's my responsibility to know the limits of my own gear and my own ability. If I get dead because I was wrong about something - oh well, that's how the game works. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Ah, I see what you were trying to say. Yeah, if you decide to use your dentures as pro, then yeah, that is totally your mistake.
Basically, yeah. Or to put it another way - the gear company is responsible for putting out a product that matches it's stated specifications; you are responsible for your safety.
Thanks for the link! Yes, that and other posts were exact reasons I started this thread - they pretty much convinced me against Aliens, so I'm looking for the next best thing. Though I understand, it's pretty hard to come by. Perhaps, I'm blessed with ignorance since my experience with Aliens is close to zero, so I'll just be content with [blank]....
A loop of that should get me a force of around 4.5-5.5kN.
I don't see what that's supposed to prove. Would you lead climb over a single piece held by 3mm tech cord?
Why not do a UIAA drop test like they do on ropes? I think they drop a 80Kg weight 5m on 2.8m of rope, five times.
Most single pieces of gear can't hold forces that big. Certainly without being mangled. If you think your gear's that good, you're fooling yourself.
To answer your question directly - I feel that testing it to around half it's rated strength is sufficient to tell me that there are no massive defects in the construction (such as the yellow Alien in that picture with the cable barely inserted into the head). And is low enough to avoid damaging the gear.
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