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blueshrimp
Apr 15, 2009, 6:07 PM
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Hey girls, so I have been observing around and have noticed that it seems that we women seem to be a bit more hesistant to lead climbs or to start leading (i.e. we don't seem to start leading climbs until after we're very confident we can do it or "are ready", etc), at least more than the men seem to be.
Any theories/ideas why that may be? Do you think it is biological (evolutionary risk aversion, or summit), cultural (women are encouraged to lead less), circumstantial (we usually hang out with better climbers who lead the routes and we are to lazy to lead them once the rope is set)?
I think it is a combination of circumstantial as well as maybe some biological. Like, I feel rather seasonal in terms of boldness: sometimes I feel I can lead anything, other times I chicken out on a simple 5.9. Not sure what controls this: maybe the weather, like I'm more willing to lead on sunny weather than on cold cloudy weather. Haven't noticed it links to anything else. So it is either weather-related or completely random in my case.
Any thoughts/anecdotal evidence to share?
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tigerlilly
Apr 15, 2009, 6:39 PM
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I think a big part of it is evolutionary. The guy cavemen were out taking the risks to feed the tribe and the girl cavewomen were busy trying to make sure the species survived. Statistically, men are more likely to be risk-takers than women. But Outside Magazine had an interesting article that showed that, even within a gender, there is variety that seems to have a biological basis. They did MRI scans of peoples' brains while they played a game which involved risk taking. One guy, who is way out there on the end of the risk-taking spectrum, did not show any activity in the area of the brain where fear is centered when a balloon popped during the game, whereas most other people did show activity there. Instead, his pleasure center lit up. The guy gets off on fear!
I, personally, was born a chicken, though I want to be one of the fearless people. Climbing is a stretch for me. I also found my anxiety level varies with my hormonal cycle. I've turned into a total headcase in the middle of a climb at the wrong time of the month. Just knowing what causes it does help me keep control, but it gets to be a challenge some days.
Kathy
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clausti
Apr 15, 2009, 7:08 PM
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can't speak to trends for the genders, but me personally:
when i'm generally feeling productive and happy, when my emotional relationships are in a good, secure place, and when i have chosen (rather than feeling obligated) to go climbing, i climb better and bolder.
for this reason, sometimes i climb best when i skip "training" entirely, and just rush out for the weekends. i feel like it's a reward rather than duty.
i guess what i'm trying to say, in a roundabout way, is that my a priori emotional state affects my climbing directly to a high degree. it SEEMS that many guys have the ability to separate the two.
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clausti
Apr 15, 2009, 7:11 PM
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tigerlilly wrote: I think a big part of it is evolutionary. The guy cavemen were out taking the risks to feed the tribe and the girl cavewomen were busy trying to make sure the species survived.
there is a growing body of evidence that the majority of the calories in hunter gatherer societies was on the gathering, rather than on the hunting side.
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happiegrrrl
Apr 15, 2009, 7:20 PM
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hahah - That actually backs up her point in a way. The guy cavemen(and I refer to cartoon cavemen here, not anything based on reality), chasing after sabre-toothed tigers and mammoths, wasting hours, days - maybe even WEEKS - on these high-risk hunting jaunts, coming home empty..... While the cavewomen went about the more sure method, gathering the seeds, roots, and plants that sustained the tribe.
The cavemen spraying HOW BIG that sucka was, and how the crapped their loincloths and such. And the cavewomen just getting it done.....
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clausti
Apr 15, 2009, 7:27 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: hahah - That actually backs up her point in a way. The guy cavemen(and I refer to cartoon cavemen here, not anything based on reality), chasing after sabre-toothed tigers and mammoths, wasting hours, days - maybe even WEEKS - on these high-risk hunting jaunts, coming home empty..... While the cavewomen went about the more sure method, gathering the seeds, roots, and plants that sustained the tribe. The cavemen spraying HOW BIG that sucka was, and how the crapped their loincloths and such. And the cavewomen just getting it done.....
i mean, fair enough. but as far as feeding the tribe goes, let's give credit where credit is due.
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tigerlilly
Apr 15, 2009, 7:33 PM
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LOL! Hilarious mental picture, Terrie!
I'm not surprised early humans got more calories from gathering than hunting, since it's easier to get food that doesn't fight back or run away. However, was it always the women who did the gathering?
Kathy
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clausti
Apr 15, 2009, 8:02 PM
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tigerlilly wrote: LOL! Hilarious mental picture, Terrie! I'm not surprised early humans got more calories from gathering than hunting, since it's easier to get food that doesn't fight back or run away. However, was it always the women who did the gathering? Kathy
generally speaking, yes.
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lena_chita
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Apr 15, 2009, 8:21 PM
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I don't personally feel that leading is "so daunting", but yes, my lead-head can be clear or fuzzy, depending on a number of factors, and as a result I may be climbing bolder, or chickening out on easy stuff.
Clausti has touched on a number of variables. I would add that in addition to the things she mentioned, my climbing is somewhat affected by who I am climbing with.
I don't think weather has a direct effect, but overall, I am a happier person on a bright sunny day, so feeling good overall contributes to good lead-head.
It is all inter-connected though. I might be starting the weekend feeling the weight of all the things that are difficult in my life, and thinking that I won't be climbing too well, but then for some reason I DO climb better than I expected, and that starts a positive cycle of feeling better and climbing better...
Evolutionary aspect... yeah, yeah, cavemen, and then modern society, upbringing, and all that.
It is much easier for women to hang back and let the guys be "the strong ones". No question about it. Some guys prefer it that way, and so do a lot of women, as far as I can see...
Guys face more pressure to be leaders. They may be apprehensive and unsure about it, but unwilling to lose face in front of their buddies. And their buddies are more likely to push them into testing their limits by joking about they "manliness" if they don't.
LOL, I just remembered an episode from last weekend. Some guy was hang-dogging the hell out of sport 5.10a/b, whining and whimpering that he couldn't reach the next jug, or couldn't clip from the jug he was on, etc. etc. Eventually he he gave up and asked to be lowered, so a girl (Stronger climber in his group of 3, who had already climbed this route once) could go back up and clean the draws.
Clausti and I were watching from the sidelines (e.i. climbing a route next to them), having done his route for a warm-up.
As he was being lowered, he kicked his feet in frustration and said something like:"Gee, why do I have to be such a pussy!"
To which clausti quickly quipped: hey, for the record, all the pussies around here HAVE climbed that route already. 
It summarizes the attitudes in a nutshell, you know?
A girl who is frustrated about not being able to climb something won't use a gender epithet to describe her weakness. But a guy would, b/c he is not being strong, e.i. acting " like a girl".
(This post was edited by lena_chita on Apr 15, 2009, 8:22 PM)
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wonderwoman
Apr 15, 2009, 8:37 PM
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I think that guys feel leading just as daunting as we do... Maybe they just don't allow themselves to show it as much.
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upintheair
Apr 15, 2009, 8:54 PM
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lena_chita wrote: IAs he was being lowered, he kicked his feet in frustration and said something like:"Gee, why do I have to be such a pussy!" To which clausti quickly quipped: hey, for the record, all the pussies around here HAVE climbed that route already.
LOL!
A few people have mentioned the mental aspect, but for me the physical has a huge affect on my lead head. If I'm exhausted from climbing too hard the previous day, cold/stiff from climbing in bad weather, or injured/just recuperating from injury, I'm pretty timid, to the point of shaking my way up very easy leads.
Among the people I climb with, I know both men and women who don't like to lead, but most are women. Maybe there is something evolutionary there. If you're the primary caretaker for children, your death pretty much guarantees theirs, especially if they're still breastfeeding. Makes sense to be more protective of your body under those conditions.
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clausti
Apr 15, 2009, 8:58 PM
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lena_chita wrote: I don't think weather has a direct effect, but overall, I am a happier person on a bright sunny day, so feeling good overall contributes to good lead-head.
i forgot to add that i climb like, 6 letter grades harder when it's warm enough (sunny and above 60 or cloudy in the mid 70s). seriously, i carry a fleece to the crag until the high starts getting into the 80s.
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wonderwoman
Apr 15, 2009, 9:04 PM
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clausti wrote: lena_chita wrote: I don't think weather has a direct effect, but overall, I am a happier person on a bright sunny day, so feeling good overall contributes to good lead-head. i forgot to add that i climb like, 6 letter grades harder when it's warm enough (sunny and above 60 or cloudy in the mid 70s). seriously, i carry a fleece to the crag until the high starts getting into the 80s.
Me too! Bummer that I live in the North East, huh?
I designate myself as 'belay slave' in 40 degree weather. The rock feels like razor blades on my fingers until I just can't feel or move them anymore.
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smallclimber
Apr 16, 2009, 2:45 AM
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My husband and I pretty much climb the same grade but he tends to lead most trad routes, my gear placements and route finding are always a bit suspect no matter how hard I try, I tend to just go for it and then he gets worried I am not putting enough gear in. However he gets a bit freaked out on sport routes whereas I will willingly push a bit harder on these and hence I lead most sport - and really enjoy doing it.
A practical reason for less women leading trad is weight of gear in comparison to our weight. I weigh 90lb - so the full trad rack plus rope drag is pretty considerable for me, whereas for my 180lb hubby its not so bad.
In general I agree that where couples are climbing together you mostly see the guy leading, especially on trad. |
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d0nk3yk0n9
Apr 16, 2009, 8:35 PM
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I'm a guy, but I thought I'd just chime in here and say that some of us men do find leading to be rather daunting. At least I do. Then again, despite my absolute confidence in my belayers and in the rope system, I seem to have an irrational mental block when it comes to roped climbing. As soon as I'm on a rope, I tighten up, my technique deteriorates, and I overgrip everything and pump out more quickly.
I think that this phenomenon has to do with a comfort zone issue. Some people (both men and women) are more comfortable with leading, while others prefer top rope. I think that the perception of women as less comfortable with leading has to do more with the fact that men are less likely to admit such fears. I know that I'm less comfortable leading and have communicated this to my partners because I'm okay with telling them that. I also know people who I can tell aren't comfortable with it but would never admit it to anyone. Some of these people are men, and some are women. Finally, some of the best climbers I've seen on lead are women and they seem perfectly comfortable with it.
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iamthewallress
Apr 16, 2009, 10:47 PM
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Leading is not a necessity for women as often as it is for men.
When the situation dictates that women have to lead if they wanted to climb at all, and they do want to climb, they tend to lead.
So if you enjoy TRs and have them at the ready often enough without much social pressure telling you that you'd be more womanly if you were on the pointy end, why not just go with what is comfy and available?
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petsfed
Apr 17, 2009, 12:19 AM
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I met my current girlfriend while she was in a belay class that I was teaching. Basically all of her climbing experience has been with me. Initially, she was very skittish about climbing routes based on her understanding of grades, and even more skittish about placing gear and leading.
However, she sensed an imbalance since I was leading everything, and she felt like she wasn't pulling her weight. I didn't really mind. It meant that I always got to lead the money pitches. Given her rapidly expanding ability, its not like climbing with her is really holding me back.
This feeling of imbalance was magnified when I put her on a few routes that were out of her self-defined comfort zone without telling her. She cruised them, then asked what they went at, two or three number grades beyond what she thought herself capable of.
We spent most of our downtime that weekend discussing what went into a good partnership, and the biggest thing, to me, was similarity of motivation levels, and the ability to enjoy pursuing the goals of the other, even if the goals were not of similar level.
I feel like her motivation for wanting to lead is not born from a desire to lead, per se, but rather out of a desire to be a better partner. Honestly, I don't think I'm entirely comfortable with that. That said, its not as if I'm hell-bent on pushing her into leading either. I think d0nk3yk0n9 is pretty close to the mark. Its not like climbing won't happen if she doesn't lead.
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tradchick
Apr 17, 2009, 12:40 PM
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Good question and for me it's a mix of things.
I consider myself a risk taker because my favorite sports are rock and ice climbing, scuba diving, alpine skiing and road cycling/racing. Also have done a little skydiving.
I do struggle with leading, particularly rock. I freeze up leading 5.6 trad but can follow 10+ trad without falling off. Part of it is not trusting my placements, part just not wanting to take that first leader fall.
For sure the weather impacts how well I climb whether leading or following. On a long multipitch, if it's cloudy and the wind is blowing, it can be spooky.
I also think some of my fear is due to my age. I started climbing 3 years ago when I was 48. I'm more careful now then when I was younger. I did some crazy sh** when I was in my twenties and never even considered that I might get hurt or worse.
My fiance has been climbing both rock and ice for 30 years. I know he finds leading daunting and will express that to me. Not sure if he's so vocal about that with the guys.
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acacongua
Apr 17, 2009, 2:05 PM
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I have no problem leading, although it took experience to build up to that. I lead overhanging sport though and the chances of an accident are not as high.
I do know that when I was BC (Yasmin and Yaz), my "go for it" attitude diminished. I was always fatigued and SCARED. I proved 3 times that BC affected me not only in climbing but in running (I couldn't push myself). I attributed to one or both factors: Yas has a diuretic effect and BC has been proven to inhibit testosterone (which affects mental and physical energy, as well as muscle growth).
I wish there were more studies on BC and athletics.
(This post was edited by acacongua on Apr 17, 2009, 2:06 PM)
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tigerlilly
Apr 17, 2009, 4:53 PM
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tradchick wrote: I also think some of my fear is due to my age. I started climbing 3 years ago when I was 48. I'm more careful now then when I was younger. I did some crazy sh** when I was in my twenties and never even considered that I might get hurt or worse.
Yes, this is true for me as well. I used to fall and bounce (most of the time). Now I fall and go crunch. I'm tired of broken bones and not as bold as I used to be. I know I'm more conservative than I used to be on my mtbike. It's probably best for me that I didn't discover climbing when I was young and reckless.
Kathy
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tavs
Apr 17, 2009, 6:56 PM
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acacongua wrote: I have no problem leading, although it took experience to build up to that. I lead overhanging sport though and the chances of an accident are not as high. I do know that when I was BC (Yasmin and Yaz), my "go for it" attitude diminished. I was always fatigued and SCARED. I proved 3 times that BC affected me not only in climbing but in running (I couldn't push myself). I attributed to one or both factors: Yas has a diuretic effect and BC has been proven to inhibit testosterone (which affects mental and physical energy, as well as muscle growth). I wish there were more studies on BC and athletics.
Oy. Not excited to hear this, though of course I know every woman is different. I just got a prescription for BC for the first time (I'm 30). My doc is starting me on a very low dose pill, so we'll see. These are exactly the kinds of things I don't want to deal with. I've got a half marathon race tomorrow and then I'll be filling the scrip and starting next week. Interested to see if I experience athletic-related side effects.
(This post was edited by tavs on Apr 17, 2009, 6:57 PM)
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ladyscarlett
Apr 18, 2009, 12:25 AM
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wow, interesting to see this topic just when I've been stressing about trad leading for an upcoming trip.
My buddies say my anxiety comes from a lack of lead head, and that I need to "just go for it!" Fair play since I do over think quite a lot. Inexperience - only two trad leads and maybe a handful of sport, also looms large in my brain. I am definitely a big wimp though...I'm hoping climbing will help, and keep me challenging myself.
Something that keeps me anxious is that I fixate on the possibility that I won't know the skills or have the strength I lack until I need them on the side of the rock...pitches about the ground, hanging from a loose finger, unstable feet and no gear, run out from a marginal piece...of course!
Evolutionary speaking, I figured as a female's "success" in maintaining a tribe community depended on long term planning for day to day functionality over the seasons, women have developed an inclination towards a 'prepare for the worst in advance' mentality whereas male behaviors leaned more towards acquire skills, pick target, go for the target, and deal with the problems as they come. Combine that with a female proclivity towards multi-tasking (from the tribe times) and you have a gender inclined to think about all the daunting possibilities while going along their merry way.
That being said, no scientific basis for this. It's just my brain wandering so that the scared scared little girl doesn't have the chance to scream and make my body run away...
thanks for the discussion!
cheers
ls
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lhwang
Apr 18, 2009, 5:07 PM
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There was actually a decent thread on this a while ago (search for leading and the female perspective if it doesn't work).
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ing=leading;#1201984
I don't buy the whole evolutionary/gender differences in leading explanation. I was kind of hoping that clausti would talk about there being more variability within a gender than between genders.
I do have a lot of problems with leading (actually, it's the falling that I have issues with!). I'd say in my case it's personal experience rather than biological, cultural or circumstantial... I started leading within a few months of learning to climb. I hurt myself in a fall on a supposedly safe climb and ever since have had a hard time leading. I still make myself do it (ice, trad, sport, multipitch), mainly because I guess I like the challenge in some sick twisted way, and because there aren't a whole lot of toproping areas around here and I hate the idea of being on dependent on someone else to climb.
A few things that really helped me... reading the Rock Warrior's Way multiple times. And just getting out there and leading as much as possible. Ironically I'm in an area where the easier climbs always have the ugliest falls... you know, some chossy loose gully with lots of ledges. It's sometimes better just to jump on something harder but cleaner.
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clee03m
Apr 27, 2009, 7:47 PM
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lhwang wrote: I don't buy the whole evolutionary/gender differences in leading explanation.
Me neither. I was climbing with two guys for a week, and I observed that we all were different in our leading styles. One guy was fearless and would forgo protection on easier (for him) terraine, offer to lead R rated routes, and fall without blinking an eye. The other guy, despite being a very strong climber (11's trad and have seen him lead a few 12's sport), would choose to hang on gear or bolt than to fall. In fact, I have never seen him take a lead fall. I would say I was right in the middle. While I prefer to hang or down climb and do so if I have a choice, I have fallen both on bolt and gear. I see it as a necessary evil that goes along with pushing myself on lead especially if I am trying for a clean ascent. So at least in our little group, gender (or even leading abilities) did not play into leading styles. Even with my other partners, I have not observed gender differences much. That being said, I have seen more girls who exclusively belay... Seen being the operative word, since I don't play with climbers like that much 
Urr, I mean other than my husband, but he is, like, the best belayer ever!
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lena_chita
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Apr 28, 2009, 4:34 PM
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clee03m wrote: lhwang wrote: I don't buy the whole evolutionary/gender differences in leading explanation. Me neither. ... That being said, I have seen more girls who exclusively belay...
O.K., so you have seen more women opting to exclusively belay or only toprope.
I have seen the same thing, too.
So, my question to you is: at what point would these sort of individual observations be considered "a trend indicating that different genders AS A GROUP approach climbing differently"-- e.i. "gender difference"?
By the way, I agree with lhwang's earlier statement that the spectrum within gender is greater than the difference between genders.
One doesn't preclude the other. You can have two groups with the same (large) Standard Deviation, and have the Medians differ from each other at the same time.
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clee03m
Apr 28, 2009, 5:57 PM
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This is why I was at first disinclined to answer this thread. I just wonder what we are gaining by blaming gender inequalities for our fear of leading. I re-read the previous thread that lhwang mentioned, and I think these quotes are helpful as opposed to most of what I have read in this tread so far.
"Determination and mental toughness definitely played a stronger role [in leading] than physical aptitude or gender."
"I found it very surprising and thought-provoking to read posts from women saying that they think women in general have more confidence issues, or that we are more prone to fear. I really believe that those thoughts are self-fulfilling prophecies. Especially with climbing, which has got to be at leas 75% mental.
Women everywhere do all kinds of amazing things. They are plastic surgeons, mathematicians, hockey players, musicians, construction workers, teachers, architects, lawyers, etc. They have babies, and if you've ever spent time on a labour & delivery ward, you would be in awe of how strong and determined women are. (Men also do amazing things. I think it is unfair to say that some men climb hard because they are "dumber and more willing to do stupid things").
Attributing fear to your gender is nothing but an excuse. Blaming society is disempowering and even worse, because it implies that women somehow don't have control over their own thoughts."
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clausti
Apr 28, 2009, 6:43 PM
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clee03m wrote: Women everywhere do all kinds of amazing things. They are plastic surgeons, mathematicians, hockey players, musicians, construction workers, teachers, architects, lawyers, etc. They have babies, and if you've ever spent time on a labour & delivery ward, you would be in awe of how strong and determined women are. (Men also do amazing things. I think it is unfair to say that some men climb hard because they are "dumber and more willing to do stupid things").
but, oddly, not very many physicists.
to say that there are not gender differences is to be politically correct to the point of idiocy. that's like saying that there isn't a difference in the average SAT score of white students and black students. in both cases the fact is, there are differences. but, since these things are "population" statistics, they can both represent meaningful differences between groups, and be totally useless for comparing individuals. which they are.
as far as gender differences, whatever the selective origins: hormonal exposure affects brain function, testosterone in particular. and there are gender differences in both personal perception of risk (eg. R-rated routes, 13 year old skate boarders) and societal acceptance of perceived inferiority (women who don't lead, women who hang out at the crag to belay only).
i don't really think people are "blaming" things. but there are reasons why more men lead than women. and it's not individual whimsy occurring a million times.
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lena_chita
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Apr 28, 2009, 7:15 PM
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clee03m wrote: This is why I was at first disinclined to answer this thread. I just wonder what we are gaining by blaming gender inequalities for our fear of leading. I re-read the previous thread that lhwang mentioned, and I think these quotes are helpful as opposed to most of what I have read in this tread so far. ."
Is anyone "blaming" gender inequalities here? I didn't think so.
If the OP posted something like 'I find leading very daunting, and I think it is because I'm a female that it is so scary to me', I would be the first one to jump in and say:"Oh, please, don't hide behind your gender identity as a faint-prone dainty little female, if you want to lead, you can overcome your fears and boost your confidence to become a solid leader."
But this isn't what the OP said. OP noticed the same thing YOU did-- that females in general are more likely to hang back, let the guys take the lead, and then toprope/follow, and asked why this might be so.
And the answer to that is yes, there ARE gender differences, due to upbringing, social pressures, and yes, nature, too.
It isn't to say that women CAN'T lead every bit as boldly as males do. Of course they can, and many do.
But as a group we are different than guys in our behavior, for various reasons.
clee03m wrote: "Determination and mental toughness definitely played a stronger role [in leading] than physical aptitude or gender."
Agree completely.
clee03m wrote: "I found it very surprising and thought-provoking to read posts from women saying that they think women in general have more confidence issues, or that we are more prone to fear. I really believe that those thoughts are self-fulfilling prophecies. Especially with climbing, which has got to be at leas 75% mental. Women everywhere do all kinds of amazing things. They are plastic surgeons, mathematicians, hockey players, musicians, construction workers, teachers, architects, lawyers, etc. They have babies, and if you've ever spent time on a labour & delivery ward, you would be in awe of how strong and determined women are. (Men also do amazing things. I think it is unfair to say that some men climb hard because they are "dumber and more willing to do stupid things"). "
I do not find the two things mutually exclusive.
Saying that women CAN do everything just as confidently as males can, and saying that the CURRENT POPULATION OF WOMEN, as is, given their various backgrounds and upbringing, etc. IS more likely than their maile peers to have confidence issues , hang back, let others take the lead, etc. are two different things alltogether.
As a parent, I am trying to raise a daughter who would be strong, confident, etc-- just like her brother. If every other parent does the same, maybe eventually women AS A POPULATION would not have any confidence issues. but right now they do.
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fresh
Apr 28, 2009, 7:27 PM
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I don't know if there's science to back it up, but I think most men and women have distinctly different feedback circuits in their brains. after my gf finishes a climb that scared the shit out of her, her brain tells her "all right, good job and everything, but don't ever fucking do that again. you almost died." after me or one of my climbing buddies does a climb that scares the shit out of us, our brains tell us "WOOOOO let's do that shit again."
it's a generalization, and there's plenty of exceptions. but I think most guys and girls just have different motivations for trying hard/scary routes.
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d0nk3yk0n9
Apr 28, 2009, 8:47 PM
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I'd like to chime in again here. I'd like to say that, while I enjoy leading to some extent, I find that I sometimes enjoy belaying more. This is probably because I teach at a summer camp and work with children a lot, so I enjoy being supportive and coaching a climber through a difficult section of a route while I belay him or her. It's the same reason that I enjoy spotting people while bouldering, a task that most people find tedious.
What I find interesting (and sometimes annoying and unfair) is that, as a guy who feels this way, I get labeled as a "wimp" and called things like "belay-bitch" (not my term--I hate the turn of phrase), while similar behavior is sometimes expected of women I've climbed with and seen climbing and those women who do get on the sharp edge of things and lead tough routes are seen as the exception rather than the rule. It really isn't fair (to either sex) that pressure is put on men to lead while women are often expected not to.
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kiwiprincess
Apr 28, 2009, 8:59 PM
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lena_chita wrote: And the answer to that is yes, there ARE gender differences, due to upbringing, social pressures, and yes, nature, too. As a parent, I am trying to raise a daughter who would be strong, confident, etc-- just like her brother. If every other parent does the same, maybe eventually women AS A POPULATION would not have any confidence issues. but right now they do.
I have been raised in exactly the same way as my brothers, as my mother was determined to give me opportunities she had not been allowed.(had to leave school as education was a waste of money as she was only going to get married. had to do all the cooking)
In real life I realise this is very unusual, I am constantly suprised by other peoples expectations and my differences to them. (smaller meals for girls was the big shock!)
I am very competitive for a woman, i always want to go hard and try full on. I have a heights thing so leading is hard, but in other sports i push my limits. Not all women do. I sometimes feel that it is related to caution and sometimes to self conciousness....not wanting to embarrass them selves in public by being the worst at first. But how else do you learn?
People often ask me how the guys feel about me being so good.
I think this is the older generation(50+) or a women's issue not coming from the guys. if it rarely happens, the idiot's not going to be a good friend, so I just let him flow through my life, and spend time with all the guys who just accept me as I am and want to spend the day having fun with me snowboarding, riding, climbing whatever.
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acacongua
Apr 29, 2009, 11:43 PM
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This is a thread with a lot of potential, but instead you all are putting me to sleep with this speculation on evolution or societal damage.
Instead, why don't women with lead head issues or moments of lead head issues list personal reasons.
Could it be that you don't see rock that often? Could it be that you're really not interested in climbing but doing it for the bf or looking for a bf (seriously, there's not shame in it)? Could it be that you don't have peers encouraging you? Could it be that you're simply a nut case to begin with?
Climbing well takes experience - and not just years of climbing a handful of days each year.
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wonderwoman
Apr 30, 2009, 3:43 PM
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I agree with you, and I think we all have to take responsibility for our own climbing.
These are the things that I know about myself:
1. If it's less than 50 degrees and shady and / or wet, I will not climb. I have no tolerance for cold rock and I'm okay with this. These are the days that you will find me belaying or doing jumping jacks at the cliff base.
2. If there is a tricky start move that I think that I may hit the ground or ledge, I will not lead the pitch. I badly hurt my ankle and back bouldering and won't take that risk again.
3. I get seriously pissed with myself if I back off a climb and hand the sharp end to somebody else. I do not often cheat myself out of the opportunity to lead. When I do back off (which is not very often), it is usually because of reasons 1 or 2 and I'm okay with that!
I think the trick is to figure out and name what holds you back from leading. Once you do that, you can either be okay with those limitations or figure out how to overcome them.
(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Apr 30, 2009, 3:43 PM)
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camhead
Apr 30, 2009, 5:39 PM
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acacongua wrote: This is a thread with a lot of potential, but instead you all are putting me to sleep with this speculation on evolution or societal damage. Instead, why don't women with lead head issues or moments of lead head issues list personal reasons. Could it be that you don't see rock that often? Could it be that you're really not interested in climbing but doing it for the bf or looking for a bf (seriously, there's not shame in it)? Could it be that you don't have peers encouraging you? Could it be that you're simply a nut case to begin with? Could it be that your clueless belayer keeps locking off and slamming you into the rock on Fuzzy Undercling? Climbing well takes experience - and not just years of climbing a handful of days each year.
Fixed that for you
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clausti
Apr 30, 2009, 6:03 PM
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camhead wrote: acacongua wrote: This is a thread with a lot of potential, but instead you all are putting me to sleep with this speculation on evolution or societal damage. Instead, why don't women with lead head issues or moments of lead head issues list personal reasons. Could it be that you don't see rock that often? Could it be that you're really not interested in climbing but doing it for the bf or looking for a bf (seriously, there's not shame in it)? Could it be that you don't have peers encouraging you? Could it be that you're simply a nut case to begin with? Could it be that your clueless belayer keeps locking off and slamming you into the rock on Fuzzy Undercling? Climbing well takes experience - and not just years of climbing a handful of days each year. Fixed that for you
i'm not gonna lie- the number of times i was slammed into the rock when i was a beginning leader was nontrivial. 110lb climber plus 150-180 lb belayer minus any kind of soft catch equals ouch. on my very first trip to the red, Terry saw my belayer doing this to me and sat him down and explained what a soft catch was. it definitely helped that crew. (then he took pity on us and rescued our draws that i kept falling trying to obtain.) i sprained my wrist and bashed up my whole right side once hitting the edge of the roof on mo'betta holds. my belayer thought i'd clear it since he had given me the same amount of slack he gives everyone at that spot. but he failed to understand that i'd fail to induce enough stretch in the rope.
later, i took a 15-18 foot slab fall and inverted. luckily, i landed in a ball with my head well away from the rock, but it was still pretty scary.
later, i fell bouldering and injured my back pretty seriously. no climbing (or so much as walking on a treadmill) for 3 months, two of which i walked at all only with the help of a cane.
and i'm probably a more paranoid than usual person to begin with. i've definitely yet to train myself out of the instinctive response that falling=pain, which is why i'm getting better at onsiting/flashing harder stuff, but my redpoint peak is pretty much static for the last few years.
*edited to add: it should be noted that i've been climbing outside right at 6 years now, so it's not like i had a string of accidents all together.
(This post was edited by clausti on Apr 30, 2009, 6:08 PM)
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ladyscarlett
Apr 30, 2009, 7:44 PM
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acacongua wrote: This is a thread with a lot of potential, but instead you all are putting me to sleep with this speculation on evolution or societal damage. Instead, why don't women with lead head issues or moments of lead head issues list personal reasons. Could it be that you don't see rock that often? Could it be that you're really not interested in climbing but doing it for the bf or looking for a bf (seriously, there's not shame in it)? Could it be that you don't have peers encouraging you? Could it be that you're simply a nut case to begin with? Climbing well takes experience - and not just years of climbing a handful of days each year.
Fair Play, climbing does demand personal responsibility and one can't shy away from personal inadequacies when they prevent success. However, I think we are just musing on some of the forms that mental issues manifest. I will be optimistic and say that no one here is using science or social development as an excuse, just an interesting possible factor.
I know that my issues come from being a beginner plain and simple and incredibly insecure about my abilities on the rock, which results in over thinking, so that instead of applying 100% of my mental powers to the rock in front and ahead, my mind is wrapped up with "what ifs." The brain is slowly being trained to focus and not think too hard.
Being incredibly new to leading, I look forward to the mental development that comes with it, because really, I know that the base of all my problems is that I'M WEAK.
Luckily, it's something I can work on!! Heh
To continuing adventures on the sharp end!
cheers
ls
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lhwang
Apr 30, 2009, 11:01 PM
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Yes to the whole soft catch thing.
That's how my injury happened (it was on my second outdoor lead ever, too). Heavier belayer, locked off with a grigri when I was falling. Not fun.
Don't we all have lead issues? If there's a woman out there with no lead issues whatsoever, please speak up.
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lena_chita
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May 1, 2009, 2:50 PM
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lhwang wrote: Yes to the whole soft catch thing. That's how my injury happened (it was on my second outdoor lead ever, too). Heavier belayer, locked off with a grigri when I was falling. Not fun. Don't we all have lead issues? If there's a woman out there with no lead issues whatsoever, please speak up.
Everyone, men and women, have good days and bad days when it comes to leading...
I certainly can be affected by many things when I climb, but I don't feel that I have regular lead-head issues or that gender is the main reason for bad days that I might have once in a while.
And yeah, the soft catch thing... The worst catch I ever had was actually from a female belayer who outweighted me by maybe 20-25 pounds, at most. But she was so used to being the lighter person in the pair that she never really processed the fact that she was belaying someone lighter than she was for a change. It was only the second time she belayed me, we weren't regular partners... So, overhanging wall, end-of-the-day, 30-ish ft fall, stiff lock-off on a gri-gri with no extra slack, and a hip bruise bigger than my palm... ouch!
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granite_grrl
May 1, 2009, 5:45 PM
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lena_chita wrote: lhwang wrote: Yes to the whole soft catch thing. That's how my injury happened (it was on my second outdoor lead ever, too). Heavier belayer, locked off with a grigri when I was falling. Not fun. Don't we all have lead issues? If there's a woman out there with no lead issues whatsoever, please speak up. Everyone, men and women, have good days and bad days when it comes to leading... I certainly can be affected by many things when I climb, but I don't feel that I have regular lead-head issues or that gender is the main reason for bad days that I might have once in a while. And yeah, the soft catch thing... The worst catch I ever had was actually from a female belayer who outweighted me by maybe 20-25 pounds, at most. But she was so used to being the lighter person in the pair that she never really processed the fact that she was belaying someone lighter than she was for a change. It was only the second time she belayed me, we weren't regular partners... So, overhanging wall, end-of-the-day, 30-ish ft fall, stiff lock-off on a gri-gri with no extra slack, and a hip bruise bigger than my palm... ouch!
For myself I don't usually have to deal with guys that really outweigh me (my husband is only 15-20lbs heavier than me), so it's not as bad when I get a hard catch. But my harness leg-loop sits right where I broke my femur, so a hard catch can take me out of commission for a couple of climbs. Fortunally, Nathan has gotten really good at giving me fantastic, soft catches. Last year he got to practice it a fair bit too.
When I started leading it was on gear. I definitely had some head issues, confidence in my self in my climbing and my abilities. It mostly took practice and time to get over this. Then I ledged out. You better believe that fucked that up. I'm not in a totally different head space. I started sport climbing more, actually take more falls now than when I used to concentrate on trad climbing. But I like staying on nice overhanging sport climbs. If I look down and see stuff I can hit on a harder climb, you better believe that'll mess me up. Even if it's not very likely I'll hit it as I get higher, my mojo is ruined for that climb, and sometimes even for the day.
I still trad climb, but I tend to stay away from limestone gear climbing. It took a bit to get my confidence back in my climbing abilities, but they came back. I'm out of practice right now, but I'd like to get more trad climbing in this summer and bring my lead level up to where it's never been before.
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clee03m
May 4, 2009, 3:06 PM
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Whatever issues I've had in the past, I am happy with my lead head for now. That being said, there are things I don't like when I lead, but I am OK with that. I don't like hard starts that could potentially hurt my ankle. I don't like 'alpine' style climbing with loose holds/blocks as I found out on a recent trip. I don't like run out climbs. And I hate falling and will hang or climb down unless I have my heart set on an onsight or a red point. The reason I am OK with above is that despite what I don't like I do push my limits with leads. I will lead at my limit with sport climbing and pretty close to my limit with trad (which I am hoping will change to just 'my limit' after this season).
About soft catches, two of my regular partners who are mostly trad climbers suck at giving me a soft catch. They are not as used to catching people especially light people. But I am not innocent. I recently misjudged with 2 different girls at the gym. One apparantly weighed more than she looked, and I think the little jump in my part may have been unnecessary. She didn't deck or anything, but I think we was a bit surprised by how far she fell. Another girl was so light that despite my attempt at giving her slack and a little jump, I didn't give a soft catch. She didn't get hurt, but she didn't want to try leading the climb again. She had just given me a perfect catch at the same spot the time before, too. And she has been climbing for only 4 months. I felt terrible, and made a resolution to really think when I belay girls and small people. I think sometimes I get lazy because I usually belay big dudes.
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lena_chita
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May 6, 2009, 5:29 PM
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acacongua wrote: camhead wrote: Could it be that your clueless belayer keeps locking off and slamming you into the rock on Fuzzy Undercling? But you got it down when we moved onto Tissue Tiger - and after you onsited it. Note to everyone: if you have ego issues, don't put Camhead on your projects.
... unless you climb so much weaker than he does that you simply don't have any ego issues when he onsights your project. :)
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acacongua
May 6, 2009, 5:33 PM
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lhwang wrote: That's how my injury happened (it was on my second outdoor lead ever, too). Heavier belayer, locked off with a grigri when I was falling. Not fun.
That's how my broken ankle occurred (on the 5th route that I ever lead). Over time and lots of climbing, I got smarter about belayers and really took to steep climbing and now I'm really pushing the grades (not on slab though)
BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend.
(This post was edited by acacongua on May 6, 2009, 5:36 PM)
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wonderwoman
May 6, 2009, 6:18 PM
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acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend.
It just doesn't work so well for trad.
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camhead
May 6, 2009, 6:30 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend. It just doesn't work so well for trad.
Yeah, trad requires other techniques.
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wonderwoman
May 6, 2009, 6:41 PM
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camhead wrote: wonderwoman wrote: acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend. It just doesn't work so well for trad.
You've inspired me! Next time instead of backing off, I'm just going to jump on my partner's shoulders!
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happiegrrrl
May 6, 2009, 9:02 PM
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The start of a route is the thing that is it for me. If I can get 2 pieces in before it looks too committing, I don't think twice. But if I have to climb something I can't guarantee, it is harder to psyche myself into getting started.
Climbing that is at my limit with a few good pieces under me is just so much more pleasurable that climbing at my limit off the belay(or ground with an ugly landing).
I also have had some problems getting regular partners. I'm just not so good at maintaining relationships - there, I said it! That manifests itself in that I am often climbing cold with someone I don't know, and that makes me nervous on lead.
Still, I love the feelings I get from leading. It's just so different than following or toproping. I wish I could bring up the good feelings before heading out though, instead of the worriesome ones!
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ladyscarlett
May 6, 2009, 10:15 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: camhead wrote: wonderwoman wrote: acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend. It just doesn't work so well for trad. You've inspired me! Next time instead of backing off, I'm just going to jump on my partner's shoulders!
I'm going to remember that technique - that will give me at least another 6 ft!!
heh
ls
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clee03m
May 7, 2009, 12:22 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: That manifests itself in that I am often climbing cold with someone I don't know, and that makes me nervous on lead.
I agree that climbing with new partners is scary. I won't put myself in situations where I can fall if I don't know my partner well.
At the risk of being nosey, how come you can't keep your partners? Is that because you climb with SO's and you break up or you just can't keep climbing partners? Just curious...
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happiegrrrl
May 7, 2009, 2:07 AM
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clee03m wrote: At the risk of being nosey, how come you can't keep your partners? Is that because you climb with SO's and you break up or you just can't keep climbing partners? Just curious...
Regular Partner A - Realized they had to focus on grad school if they wanted that PhD.
Regular Partner B - Got pregnant, quit climbing for the duration, single mom.
Regular Partner C - Opposite sex that, after climbing together all season, finally made a move. An unwanted one, unfortunately, which has made it a little uncomfortable since.
Those are regulars for the last 3 seasons or so. Along with those, I would post for people online, and get a gamut of students, visitors, and others who had regular partners that were unavailable that day for whatever reason. That's been the majority of people I climb with since day one. I actually have more "regular" climbing partners when I go to Joshua Tree than I do here at home.
With the "day climbers," we always have good days. Never had an epic that was actually an epic. Never heard any rumblings of discontent. But it seems when people do the musical chairs dance for partners, I am the one still standing when the music stops.
It's not necessarily a climbing partner thing; I'm just not good at *friending,* it seems. Have always been very comfortable with solitude and actually require large amounts of it. I get agitated when I have to spend large amounts of time with people and cannot get away, and when I see that "friend" ball being lobbed my way, it's like I see it but don't get the concept. The ball goes over my shoulder. Repeatedly. And eventually people think either I am trying to put them off or they get sick of making the effort.
It's not that I can't keep partners, it's more like I just don't develop relationships with them to ever become regular partners. It would appear I am slightly socially defective, in some way. Moreso that your average climber(and that's saying something!) :(
By the way - I need a partner for Saturday..... oy veh.
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wonderwoman
May 7, 2009, 2:50 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: wonderwoman wrote: camhead wrote: wonderwoman wrote: acacongua wrote: BTW, why don't the ones afraid of sketchy starts just invest in a stick clip?? Foreign concept out west, I know, but so were crash pads at one time. Start the trend. It just doesn't work so well for trad. You've inspired me! Next time instead of backing off, I'm just going to jump on my partner's shoulders! I'm going to remember that technique - that will give me at least another 6 ft!! heh ls
Alley Oop
5.7
Gunks
Hans Kraus avoided the thin bouldery start by stepping on Stan Gross's shoulders.
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clausti
May 7, 2009, 10:50 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Still, I love the feelings I get from leading. It's just so different than following or toproping. ... Seconding or toproping too much is like going through the motions of sex without getting to the ' O'. *** 
you know, not everyone can climax from penetration alone. 
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happiegrrrl
May 7, 2009, 11:58 AM
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hahahaha - so funny, WW's analogy, but when you really think about the thing(routefinding, placement considerations followed through with loving care - and the quick reversal to try something that "feels better" when our choice was off, the contentment of a nut in....just the right spot, the final problem overcome before the run for top out.....) I can see the correlation.
But - is this a trad phenomenon? Or is clipping bolts similar?
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lena_chita
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May 7, 2009, 2:20 PM
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clausti wrote: wonderwoman wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Still, I love the feelings I get from leading. It's just so different than following or toproping. ... Seconding or toproping too much is like going through the motions of sex without getting to the ' O'. *** you know, not everyone can climax from penetration alone.
Thanks for starting my day with a laugh, ladies!
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iamthewallress
May 7, 2009, 4:39 PM
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I can't relate to sport climbing boldness as much, having not really done it.
I know lots of guys who regularly climb 5.10 or harder on iffy rock/choss with minimal gear and major consequences if they make mistakes (fall). They don't make mistakes in these situations, so they don't seem crazy to me, just confident.
I don't know any women that can routine accomplish the same, although I know a couple (including me) who aspire to it and have heard stories of a few women from BITD and an occasional story about rad mountaineer chick that I've never otherwise heard of. I wish I knew more women looking for this. It's not that choss itself is so appealing, but it's part of the deal to do most long routes off the beaten path and to do new routes.
When there's nearly always a TR available for these types of pitches (Yes, b/c I'm a girl...specifically a girlfriend, b/c if I wasn't a more able partner would probably be tied into my end of the rope. That's just honest.), I have to make an extra effort to not shirk my leads on the ones that I can safely pull off myself.
My confidence on this type of terrain has really increased in recent years, but getting confident is a process. I don't think it's something that most folks, male or female get as fast as cranking strength, since you need to have a lot different experiences before you can feel reasonably sure that you'll be able to deal with what comes your way when you run it out into the unknown. You start out with a big margin of safety and plenty of things that make you uncomfortable, and bit by bit as you learn to deal with different hazzards, your sense of what is 'not too bad' expands.
I don't think taking lead falls is that smart on a lot of what I climb. The people whose boldenss I admire most are the ones that really know the edge of where they will not fall and can climb right up to it without shrinking away or letting fear reduce their experience.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on May 7, 2009, 4:43 PM)
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acacongua
May 8, 2009, 3:09 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: But - is this a trad phenomenon? Or is clipping bolts similar?
TRing on a sweet, bolted line is like opting for a vibrator over the real thing. Gets the job done, but completely void of total satisfaction.
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wonderwoman
May 8, 2009, 3:35 AM
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acacongua wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: But - is this a trad phenomenon? Or is clipping bolts similar? TRing on a sweet, bolted line is like opting for a vibrator over the real thing. Gets the job done, but completely void of total satisfaction.
I guess sport and trad gals are equally dirty! 
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olive
May 9, 2009, 11:11 PM
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acacongua wrote: TRing on a sweet, bolted line is like opting for a vibrator over the real thing. Gets the job done, but completely void of total satisfaction.
he he, but maybe, just like masturbation, you can see what works and what does not work for you when TRing?
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olive
May 9, 2009, 11:22 PM
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I was going to say - I generally don't have lead-head issues. But then, I had an awful day of leading few days ago... and remembered that obviously those days still come and go for me. Some of the stuff that have been mentioned are important for my lead head as well - I tend to forget about who is belaying me when I am leading something that is hard for me, but if the belayer is way heavier than I am, I do more takes instead of pushing myself and falling - I do get seriously afraid for my ankles. I also am more wimpy right before my period.
But two days ago, i realized my biggest enemy for my lead-head: Feeling tired. I dont know how it works for all of you - but if I get into the route feeling tired, it kills my confidence, cant push myself, thus cant concentrate as well, and end up concentrating more on how tired I feel... Feeling physically good and feeling confident seem to relate strongly to each other in my case, and affect my leading. Early on in the day, I onsight stuff, I jump on projects whatever, but as time passes by and I feel like I am getting tired, I shy away from leading, or lead stuff way easier. Some of it is losing confidence as I said above, but I feel it is also an issue of being afraid of failing, flailing, and struggling in my case.
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clee03m
May 11, 2009, 4:18 PM
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acacongua wrote: TRing on a sweet, bolted line is like opting for a vibrator over the real thing. Gets the job done, but completely void of total satisfaction.
hahaha! I thought the O example was a bit severe. I believe this one is PERFECT. And I say it's true for both trad and sport.
For male persepective, one of my climbing partners said, for dudes, it's the difference between having sex with or without condoms.
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lhwang
May 14, 2009, 3:37 PM
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clee03m wrote: For male persepective, one of my climbing partners said, for dudes, it's the difference between having sex with or without condoms.
And of course there's the whole increased risk thing too (STDs, unwanted pregnancy...)
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lwilson
May 21, 2009, 1:55 PM
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Of course everyone has a different story to tell, but I would guess that motivation has something to do with the 'hesistant' nature of women when leading. If you are motivated to TR, then you will TR. If you are motivated to lead, you will lead. Now, this isn't to say that women have less motivation, its just maybe women don't have the same type of motivation as men do when it comes to climbing. I have found that as I progress through climbing, my motivations change, just as my confidence level changes. And when I say 'progress' this doesn't just mean to climb harder, but more like how you view climbing.
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ACJ
May 21, 2009, 2:46 PM
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I don't think that most women are hesitant to lead or start leading unless they have been groomed for it. I do a lot of climbing instruction and I often times see people, guys especially, teaching others with a fear based style.
In other words, instead of explaining how to do something and why, it comes across as "don't back clip, you will die" or "watch your leg around the rope, you will smash your head." Now yes there are dangers involved in climbing but I don't think that teaching people to be scared is the best way to go.
When my girlfriend and I go out to climb together she usually doesn't want to lead the things I do. She is capable, but not motivated. Then she heads out with her girl friends and leads a few number grades higher than usual. For just this reason I like to climb with guys as well. Since my guy friends prefer to swap leads it's easier for me to climb harder since I know that I don't have to keep it up all day long, as well as, one of my friends can save my gear if I can't make it up.
Final note, occasionally she does rescue me on leads she thinks are above her or sketchy. I'm allergic to bees and if there is a nest on the route I back off. Since neither one of us want to leave trad gear she usually climbs up right through that craziness, bees and all and then we move on. There she had motivation and didn't hesitate.
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jt512
May 31, 2009, 3:42 AM
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clausti wrote: tigerlilly wrote: I think a big part of it is evolutionary. The guy cavemen were out taking the risks to feed the tribe and the girl cavewomen were busy trying to make sure the species survived. there is a growing body of evidence that the majority of the calories in hunter gatherer societies was on the gathering, rather than on the hunting side.
Gathering is gay.
Jay
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clausti
May 31, 2009, 3:58 AM
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jt512 wrote: clausti wrote: tigerlilly wrote: I think a big part of it is evolutionary. The guy cavemen were out taking the risks to feed the tribe and the girl cavewomen were busy trying to make sure the species survived. there is a growing body of evidence that the majority of the calories in hunter gatherer societies was on the gathering, rather than on the hunting side. Gathering is gay. Jay
post stalker.
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jt512
May 31, 2009, 4:01 AM
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clausti wrote: jt512 wrote: clausti wrote: tigerlilly wrote: I think a big part of it is evolutionary. The guy cavemen were out taking the risks to feed the tribe and the girl cavewomen were busy trying to make sure the species survived. there is a growing body of evidence that the majority of the calories in hunter gatherer societies was on the gathering, rather than on the hunting side. Gathering is gay. Jay post stalker.
Not!
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clee03m
Jun 1, 2009, 2:39 PM
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jt512 wrote: Gathering is gay. Jay
Homophobe
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jemco
Jun 10, 2009, 6:51 PM
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I wanted to mention that MANY males (myself included) are also daunted by leading. I don't pay much heed to the gender-as-evolution argument as there are plenty of very bold/strong women climbers that are also evolutionary beings. What I believe is more likely is in part a numbers game (there are WAY more men climbers, thus more bold leaders) and in part a cultural phenomenon. I still find the majority of women climbers are getting into the sport via boyfriends or friends that are boys. As the numbers of women introducing women to climbing increases, we should see an increase in the number of women that lead (in part because of necessity, in part because of desire) and don't defer that task to a male.
Just a thought.
jemco
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blkela
Jun 14, 2009, 8:49 AM
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im a guy, i sorry for butting in, heres my two cents.
look at #2 on this reply
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2155560;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;page=unread#unread
i know plenty of women that can and do lead. take this into consideration too, the dude wants to show off by doing a dyno, maybe he just wants to make her giggle by shakin' his a$$.
why do you think i let her lead?
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tallgirl
Jun 14, 2009, 1:24 PM
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Great thread and I wanted to add a few comments.
Leading opened up a whole new world for me and greatly expanded my experience of climbing. My partner/SO is a stronger climber/leader than I am but he has always been supportive and encouraging-and considers us a partnership no matter how hard I climb/lead.
I had this experience recently:
I was leading a .7 at the gunks and had attempted the crux section a few times (in the process of figuring it out) when a guy on the next climb over started to tell me how to do it. I think had I been a male that wouldn't of happened. I didn't have the foresight to say -hey I'd like to figure this out for myself-. Instead I listened and attempted to "do what he said" and finally was lowered because I was really unnerved and confused.
I realized later that I'd bought in to the gender thing...that I NEEDED his help because he was giving it and he probably knew better than I did.
It really informed me on my own susceptibility to gender stereotypes and I hope the next time I'll be able to speak up for myself and concentrate on my own experience rather than accommodate someone elses.
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kimmyt
Jun 16, 2009, 9:54 PM
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i wouldn't be so sure it was because you were a girl- most people at the gunks go around spewing beta if they're given half a chance.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 17, 2009, 1:01 AM
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Well, I know that I got no problem shutting down a beta-blabber! I can't stand beta. Someone tries to suggest a move, hold, sequence or whatever to me and they pretty much get told "NO BETA!" before they've finished drawing their beta breath.
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tallgirl
Jun 17, 2009, 11:47 AM
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I spend so much time at the far end of the 'nears not seeing anyone - I can only imagine what the Trapps must be like with the conga line on Frogshead and beta flying every which way.
Thanks for the insight!
and Terrie I'll remember NO BETA
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lena_chita
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Jun 17, 2009, 2:53 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: tallgirl wrote: I was leading a .7 at the gunks and had attempted the crux section a few times (in the process of figuring it out) when a guy on the next climb over started to tell me how to do it. I think had I been a male that wouldn't of happened. I didn't have the foresight to say -hey I'd like to figure this out for myself-. Instead I listened and attempted to "do what he said" and finally was lowered because I was really unnerved and confused. I was at the gunks a few weeks ago climbing next to a guy who was stuck at the crux of a climb. I offered my take on how I did it last time I led it, and he finally made the move! He thanked me when he got to the top! It was nice!
Different people get motivated by different things.
There was this climb I was working on, once... While I was resting between tries, some guys came along, wanting to climb the same line, and I offered them a chance to step in while I was resting. As one was tying in, I asked him if he wanted to hear any beta, and he said no, I'll figure it out--quite curtly. Sure! I kept quiet, of course, and the guys ignored me quite thoroughly.
The climber proceeded to make a big mess out of the climb, and lowered off the crux, without making it. I got back on the climb and sent it.
You'd think there was a halo that suddenly appeared over my head, and I became an alluring curvy blond vision in bikini, b/c the guys suddenly noticed me. All of a sudden they wanted my beta. And were offering to belay me. And everything I said was very important, funny, and immensely valuable. And when I packed to go elsewhere they followed, for some reason, and tagged along all weekend. It was quite comical, really.
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tallgirl
Jun 17, 2009, 4:13 PM
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I agree...I think it's all very different and some people will appreciate beta and others won't.
I guess my real revelation was my own culpability in gender stereo types.
Also-I would like to think that we're all climbers whether male or female...just out there loving it because we do.
But-I don't see as many women as men leading and I don't actually understand why that is?
So-I know all you here post/climb/lead and are adventurers. Right ON!
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wonderwoman
Jun 17, 2009, 5:24 PM
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I do think that sometimes guys offer more beta to women. I, like many others, have no problem asking people to pleas stop offering it to me. I'm a 'no-beta-please' type. But if someone asks, I will offer.
I also see people make assumptions on who (me or my husband) led what climb. Too many times he has gotten credit for my sends! Dammit! 
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granite_grrl
Jun 19, 2009, 12:17 AM
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tallgirl wrote: I agree...I think it's all very different and some people will appreciate beta and others won't. I guess my real revelation was my own culpability in gender stereo types. Also-I would like to think that we're all climbers whether male or female...just out there loving it because we do. But-I don't see as many women as men leading and I don't actually understand why that is? So-I know all you here post/climb/lead and are adventurers. Right ON!
My beta story from last week. I was halfway up a route, totally stalled out looking at this itsy little crack, when the guy rappelling reminded me that I could also climb the face. No way am I going to get upset at that, I had total tunnel vision and needed a quick kick out of it. I really doubt that he helped me out just 'cause I was a girl. We have to be careful not to make something out to be what it's not.
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tallgirl
Jun 19, 2009, 11:03 AM
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I agree totally and I think if you read my reply I was commenting more on my own susceptibility to gender stereotypes and buying into the whole men are stronger/better climbers than women.
I suspect that this belief system, no matter how misguided, is a factor in why women feel less able to lead. Not that it's true for everyone (obviously) and that there aren't other reasons.
What climbing means to me and has given me goes way beyond gender issues. I feel incredibly empowered, spiritually fulfilled and down right ecstatic.
Did you have fun at the 'gunks? Did the rain impact your trip?
What did you get on that you enjoyed?
Best,
Dana
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