I've had several disagreements with co-workers on this topic and I wanted to see what kind of response I get here.

For work, we top rope kids all weighting under about 150 pounds. Since this is going on all day, and on a very short time schedule, we generally tie a figure 8 on a bite, and clip a carabiner to it. I know tying in is safer and has one less piece of equipment that can fail, but the convienience and using strong biners definately makes up for this.

Here is where we disagree. I was trained to clip the biner into both hardpoints. It only makes sense to me because if one were to fail, there would be another. Simple redundancy I feel very important to climbing.

Some of my co-workers, have been taught to clip the biner into the belay loop only. They say with a biner you clip to the belay loop, when tying in, you do so to the hardpoints. This seems dumb to me since if the belay loop snaps... your falling.

Is there any sense to this? or why do they decide this? I do take precaution when clipping into the hardpoints to put the gate outwards, so that it won't rub against the hardpoints on the harness and cause any undue wear. Wear and tear on the harness is the only possible reason I can see why this would make sense.

In an arguement, someone brought up triaxial loading or something to that affect in this situation, if this is a concern, could someone please explain why and what exactly it is?

Common sense doesn't seem so common. If you have an argument about a product, consult it's user manual. I have never seen a harness manufacturer say anything other than do NOT clip into the tie in points. Maybe you should use the product as it was designed and tested.

In an arguement, someone brought up triaxial loading or something to that affect in this situation, if this is a concern, could someone please explain why and what exactly it is?

Let's not forget Todd Skinner ...

I do not believe triaxial loading can happen from clipping into the tie-in points. In a fall, the bottom point will take most, if not all of the force anyways.

The MAIN reason NOT to do this is the danger of the ONE carabiner becoming unlocked and unclipped while the climber is climbing. I remember an accident in NH not too long ago due to this.

If you feel you must clip in, then use 2 carabiners (at least one of them a locker), opposite and opposed. THis may defeat the purpose of quickness, in which case, why don't you just tie them in.

Josh

Now I will make sure I will. I feel in some ways that our work is not as safe as it could be. I need a little advice on how to bring this up to the boss.

Here is my exhibit B: http://www.bebo.com/...lashBoxId=8160254774

Observe at 6:30 in the time line.

I think you meant "triaxial trolling". It's when you troll 3 forums at once. I would think you'd be familiar with this?

Here is my exhibit B: http://www.bebo.com/...lashBoxId=8160254774

Observe at 6:30 in the time line.

Skinner's unfortunate death has no place here.

Here's what happens when you clip directly into the harness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRCvGpUnBbY

Observe at 3:57 in the time line.

I feel in some ways that our work is not as safe as it could be. I need a little advice on how to bring this up to the boss. For one, our ropes do not last very long because my coworkers to not enforce rules like not steping on the rope. When we're outside with mainly gravel! Anyways, the ropes get nasty looking... I guess just fuzzy which I've just been told today is wear but not damage. As far as harnesses go. When do these need to be replaced? They also looked fuzzy from being worn, not exactly sure how bad that actually is.

However, if skinner would have clipped his rappel device to the hard points...

Anyway, I know a lot of old timers that back-up their belay loop with some medium sized accessory cord. This adds redundancy and would eliminate the argument about cross loading, but some argue that it clutters your harness.

Here is my exhibit B: http://www.bebo.com/...lashBoxId=8160254774

Observe at 6:30 in the time line.

Here's what happens when you clip directly into the harness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRCvGpUnBbY

Observe at 3:57 in the time line.

Observe Murdoch rappelling in with a jumbo hunting knife ... a belay loop wouldn't stand a chance against that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzYqmljrDb4

Now I will make sure I will. I feel in some ways that our work is not as safe as it could be. I need a little advice on how to bring this up to the boss. For one, our ropes do not last very long because my coworkers to not enforce rules like not steping on the rope. When we're outside with mainly gravel! Anyways, the ropes get nasty looking... I guess just fuzzy which I've just been told today is wear but not damage. As far as harnesses go. When do these need to be replaced? They also looked fuzzy from being worn, not exactly sure how bad that actually is.

do you even know what happened to todd skinner? it had nothing to do with his rappel device being clipped to his belay loop.

This is the National Park Services' morning report from October 30, 2006.

"On the afternoon of October 23rd, dispatch received a telephone call reporting a fatal climbing fall. Jim Hewitt reported that he and his partner, well-known climber Todd Skinner, had been working on a first free ascent of the "Jesus Built My Hotrod" route on the overhanging west face of the Leaning Tower. Skinner's fall occurred when he was rappelling. Hewitt told investigators that he had been above Skinner when he fell. As he was rappelling on the low-stretch ropes that they had fixed on the route, Hewitt came to Skinner's Grigri descent device on the rope at the point where he'd fallen. The Grigri had a still-locked carabiner attached which had been connected to Skinner's harness. When Skinner's body was recovered, the belay loop on his harness was missing. The next day, rangers recovered a broken harness belay loop in vegetation at the base of the wall. It was very worn at the spot where the break had occurred. Hewitt later told investigators that Skinner was aware that the belay loop on his harness was in a weakened condition prior to the climb, and that they had talked about its poor condition three days earlier..."

I don't mean to sound rude, but I think it's pretty clear what happened.

Your thoughts?

Extremely strong entries from both of you. I believe that you have effectively put this argument to rest.

This is the stuff that makes RC.com worth coming back to over and over again.

RC.com at it's finest. Impressive work guys.

Extremely strong entries from both of you. I believe that you have effectively put this argument to rest.

This is the stuff that makes RC.com worth coming back to over and over again.

i have been under the impression that skinner's belay loop failure was due to a daisychain being girth hitched to the belay loop. the rappel device was attached to the daisy when the belay loop failed.

This seems dumb to me since if the belay loop snaps... your falling.

Let's not forget Todd Skinner ...

The OP is not asking about clipping into a belay loop that has been overused and is likely cut 9/10 of the way through already. i think he is asking about clipping into a belay loop that is fully functional so this does not apply.

My opinion; don't use a carabiner. Tie in the kids so that they learn the "proper" way to do things. Otherwise they need to unlearn this thing you taught them and learn something different when it's their turn to climb El Cap.

Dave

Extremely strong entries from both of you. I believe that you have effectively put this argument to rest.

This is the stuff that makes RC.com worth coming back to over and over again.

I've had several disagreements with co-workers on this topic and I wanted to see what kind of response I get here.

For work, we top rope kids all weighting under about 150 pounds. Since this is going on all day, and on a very short time schedule, we generally tie a figure 8 on a bite, and clip a carabiner to it. I know tying in is safer and has one less piece of equipment that can fail, but the convienience and using strong biners definately makes up for this.

Here is where we disagree. I was trained to clip the biner into both hardpoints. It only makes sense to me because if one were to fail, there would be another. Simple redundancy I feel very important to climbing.

Some of my co-workers, have been taught to clip the biner into the belay loop only. They say with a biner you clip to the belay loop, when tying in, you do so to the hardpoints. This seems dumb to me since if the belay loop snaps... your falling.

Is there any sense to this? or why do they decide this? I do take precaution when clipping into the hardpoints to put the gate outwards, so that it won't rub against the hardpoints on the harness and cause any undue wear. Wear and tear on the harness is the only possible reason I can see why this would make sense.

In an arguement, someone brought up triaxial loading or something to that affect in this situation, if this is a concern, could someone please explain why and what exactly it is?

Now I will make sure I will. I feel in some ways that our work is not as safe as it could be. I need a little advice on how to bring this up to the boss. For one, our ropes do not last very long because my coworkers to not enforce rules like not steping on the rope. When we're outside with mainly gravel! Anyways, the ropes get nasty looking... I guess just fuzzy which I've just been told today is wear but not damage. As far as harnesses go. When do these need to be replaced? They also looked fuzzy from being worn, not exactly sure how bad that actually is.

This place you work at sounds strange. The gym I climb just mandated a double fisherman as a backup to the tie in for a figure 8. If you are so worried about speed in tying people in then...
I go for safe over speed any day.

I agree, but one cannot exactly argue with them. I kinda think it is something they instituted to weed out more idiots. They told me someone tied the 8 incorrectly and fell which is why they came up with the new rule. So much for the intelligent ones out there.

Yeah, possibly could be a weeding out thing. On the other hand, they are a business and they need customers.

Either way, they should be addressing the problem (making sure people know how to tie fig-8's) instead of complicating it further by adding another step to the process (the additional knot).

Actually, I like using a double fishermans with the tail after the 8. I got the idea and started doing it years ago and showed everyone I climbed with. Why? Only since it stays tied a lot better than the simple overhand that was the practice of the day.
Don

Actually, I like using a double fishermans with the tail after the 8. I got the idea and started doing it years ago and showed everyone I climbed with. Why? Only since it stays tied a lot better than the simple overhand that was the practice of the day.
Don

I use a double fisherman as a backup as well -- I was just talking about the efficacy of requiring a backup knot (when a fig-8 is properly tied, with enough tail) instead of addressing the problem the proper way.

I'd agree, but we're in a situation where there is 40 minutes to get 12 kids up the wall, time is a huge issue because there are groups back to back all day long and they have other places to be right afterwards

I was going to chime in that the OP isn't asking about normal adult
climbing, either, but of TR-ing (lightweight) kids: there should be
no way that one could make a locker-clipped-to-belay-loop system
fail. UNLESS ... , somebody forgets to secure the lock well, and some
contrivance of circumstances makes mischief with the eye clipped in
-- a VERY unlikely situation, IMO; potentially very costly if it happens.
Still, I that that or even use of two non-locking opposite-&-opposed
'biners should do. -- potential mis-use of that, though, too.

How close to the TR anchor will the climbers get?
Because if you have, say, 6' of clearance, what you could pre-tie a
lonnng eye and tie-in to the kids' belay loops by making a Girth Hitch
around them (they step into the inserted eye and move it around them).
The beauty of this is that you're either in or not, and the process is
hard to mess up. The ugly of this is the rope crunching on the webbing,
but those belay loops are super strong, and you're not holding lead
falls. You can also incorporate your own material (5-6mm cord,
doubled, backing up the belay loop).

Well, you can do a similar thing with a long-enough eye by bypassing
the belay loop and reeving the eye through the usual tie-in points.

*kN*