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mikebarter387
Nov 21, 2009, 4:54 AM
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CrazyPetie
Nov 21, 2009, 5:01 AM
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When it first started i thought, "how can a video on how to tie a bowline take 8 minutes long?"... Now i know.
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jeepnphreak
Nov 21, 2009, 5:22 AM
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wow you through me for a loop with this one. I was expecting a new recipe...
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sungam
Nov 21, 2009, 12:13 PM
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Awesome as always, Mike.
But, er... Where'd you get them chaps?
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Bats
Nov 21, 2009, 12:25 PM
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Can I punch people when I see them tying into their harness with a bowline?
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five
Nov 21, 2009, 12:42 PM
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sure; knock yourself out
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scottek67
Nov 21, 2009, 3:02 PM
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What is the point of that video? you show how to tie a bowline but then say don't ever use it! WTF?!
p.s. REAL cowboys don't use cellphones.
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acorneau
Nov 21, 2009, 3:14 PM
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Bowline on a bight FTW!!!!1!!1!one!!!
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sittingduck
Nov 21, 2009, 3:32 PM
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Nice that you at least show a picture of a correctly tied bowline in the video. Why do you tie it differently when you demonstrate it by the fireplace?
Then to a carabiner abseil brake in another video posted here, why did you not rig it correctly?
I doubt beginners will catch up on your errors so please edit the videos.
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mikebarter387
Nov 21, 2009, 3:41 PM
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sittingduck
Nov 21, 2009, 4:01 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: sittingduck wrote: Nice that you at least show a picture of a correctly tied bowline in the video. Why do you tie it differently when you demonstrate it by the fireplace? Then to a carabiner abseil brake in another video posted here, why did you not rig it correctly? I doubt beginners will catch up on your errors so please edit the videos. This time yesterday I would have said that the green hand was the dumbest person on the planet, today I stand corrected!
You need to correct the videos to Einstein.
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joshy8200
Nov 21, 2009, 4:28 PM
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Is the scenery in this Banff/Lake Louise area?
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mikebarter387
Nov 21, 2009, 4:47 PM
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Half the scenery is Lake O'hare teh rest is mix of Banff Lake Louise. Horse stuff is on the North Boundry Jasper National Park/Robson Park
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joshy8200
Nov 21, 2009, 5:11 PM
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Gotcha...knew it had to be somewhere in that general vicinity.
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mikebarter387
Nov 22, 2009, 1:56 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: acorneau wrote: Bowline on a bight FTW!!!!1!!1!one!!! That was a Bowline WITH a bight...bowline ON a bight is different knot. Not to mention the regular run of the mill everyday bowline was tied in two variations during the video, and not explained. Having the tail on the outside of the finished knot is actually a "cowboy bowline", how fitting for the clip. Next time add in the better way of finishing it, which includes the Yosemite retrace... Knots are my kool-aid, and always peek my interest, but this time I'd like to have that 8 minutes back. 
And they wonder why I drink!
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 22, 2009, 2:02 AM
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Maybe I would have gotten some humor out of the video if I had been drinking...please include that suggestion on future submittions.
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acorneau
Nov 22, 2009, 2:22 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: acorneau wrote: Bowline on a bight FTW!!!!1!!1!one!!! That was a Bowline WITH a bight...bowline ON a bight is different knot.
No, really, I meant a bowline on a bight.
I wasn't talking about anything in the video, I was showing my preference for a tie-in knot.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 22, 2009, 2:36 AM
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acorneau wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: acorneau wrote: Bowline on a bight FTW!!!!1!!1!one!!! That was a Bowline WITH a bight...bowline ON a bight is different knot. No, really, I meant a bowline on a bight. I wasn't talking about anything in the video, I was showing my preference for a tie-in knot.
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colatownkid
Nov 22, 2009, 2:52 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: acorneau wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: acorneau wrote: Bowline on a bight FTW!!!!1!!1!one!!! That was a Bowline WITH a bight...bowline ON a bight is different knot. No, really, I meant a bowline on a bight. I wasn't talking about anything in the video, I was showing my preference for a tie-in knot. Interesting come-back...I've never seen anyone tie in with a bowline ON a bight, which makes me think you might be lying...besides the fact that you can't tie in to the "hard points" without doing it as a retrace/follow-through, which makes it a serious PITA.
I have, when tying in on a cow's tail or the middle of the rope. However, that's a pretty infrequent occurrence. And most opt for an eight on a bight and a couple biners to the belay loop instead.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 22, 2009, 3:14 AM
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colatownkid wrote: I have, when tying in on a cow's tail or the middle of the rope. However, that's a pretty infrequent occurrence. And most opt for an eight on a bight and a couple biners to the belay loop instead.
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colatownkid
Nov 22, 2009, 3:38 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: colatownkid wrote: I have, when tying in on a cow's tail or the middle of the rope. However, that's a pretty infrequent occurrence. And most opt for an eight on a bight and a couple biners to the belay loop instead. Tying in with the middle of the rope, using a bowline ON a bight? You'd have to pass the bight around your entire body to finish it....are you sure it wasn't a WITH a bight? Lots of folks don't know the difference, or that there are even those two variations; they are way different. More variations of the bowline than any other knot.
I thought I meant what I said, but now I'm not sure. I did some research and I'm pretty sure I have no idea any more.
What I mean to describe is tying into the middle of a rope by making a bight in the rope to use as the working end. You then pass this working end/bight though your tie-in points. You then make a loop in both strands of the standing end. You pass the bight through the loop, around the standing end, and back through the loop to make a bowline. You then tie an overhand as a back-up knot. Alternately, you can then clip the bight to your belay loop with a locking carabiner to prevent the knot from untying. I have seen this used on more than one occasion.
It is described as a double bowline (this is what I thought was a bowline on a bight) on page 144 of Freedom of the Hills here:
http://books.google.com/...e&q=&f=false
Grog seems to think that a bowline on a bight is this:
http://www.animatedknots.com/...ww.animatedknots.com
I admit I have never seen this before.
Wikipedia agrees with what I thought a double bowline was until I looked it up in Freedom of the Hills:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bowline
So, I don't know what to call a double bowline and what to call a bowline on a bight anymore. Anyway, what I was talking about in my last post is what is represented in the link to FOTH.
As an aside, it is fairly common for the middle man on a three-man rope team traveling across glaciers to tie in with an alpine butterfly on the belay loop by passing the bight around the entire body.
So, since you claim knots are your thing, what the hell do I call those three knots above?
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 22, 2009, 4:29 AM
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Bowline on a bight is what you linked to animated knots. It's tied using a bight of rope, then the bight is passed around the whole thing leaving no tail.
Bowline with a bight is a regular bowline tied with the rope doubled over, or tied with a bight, leaving a doubled tail that must be backed up with a safety knot or carabiner.
Double bowline is a single bowline, but with a double round turn as the "hole in front of the tree".
There are so many variations of the bowline it's tough to keep them all straight. Good links on the variations, hopefully my post helps with some clarification. Climb safe!
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colatownkid
Nov 22, 2009, 4:35 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Bowline on a bight is what you linked to animated knots. It's tied using a bight of rope, then the bight is passed around the whole thing leaving no tail. Bowline with a bight is a regular bowline tied with the rope doubled over, or tied with a bight, leaving a doubled tail that must be backed up with a safety knot or carabiner. Double bowline is a single bowline, but with a double round turn as the "hole in front of the tree". There are so many variations of the bowline it's tough to keep them all straight. Good links on the variations, hopefully my post helps with some clarification. Climb safe!
Gotcha. Bowline with a bight it is.
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altelis
Nov 22, 2009, 4:39 AM
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I've heard of people using the bowline on a bight as a way to equalize two pieces when creating an anchor with the rope....any body know about this?
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 22, 2009, 4:50 AM
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Bowline on a bight can work to equalize at the anchor. Also been taught as an improvised emergency harness when rescuing a "gecko", one leg in each loop.
Here's a picture of the three that have been discussed thus far:
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angry
Nov 22, 2009, 12:09 PM
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The best part of this thread is that no matter how long it goes, noone is learning anything.
It's knotsurbation.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 22, 2009, 1:30 PM
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angry wrote: The best part of this thread is that no matter how long it goes, noone is learning anything. It's knotsurbation.
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acorneau
Nov 22, 2009, 2:15 PM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Interesting come-back...I've never seen anyone tie in with a bowline ON a bight, which makes me think you might be lying...besides the fact that you can't tie in to the "hard points" without doing it as a retrace/follow-through, which makes it a serious PITA.
Retraced or not, it's still a bowline on a bight. If you want to give it another name then just let me know.
But no, it's not a PITA at all, takes just as long as a Fig-8 follow-through.
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mikebarter387
Nov 22, 2009, 4:49 PM
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That could have been me except I was kicked out of boy scouts. Got caught eating a Brownie.
Having said that, I wouldn't want to meet this guy in a dark alley!!
I am sure that the local law enforcement would like to have a look at his hard drive.
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moose_droppings
Nov 22, 2009, 5:31 PM
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acorneau wrote: altelis wrote: I've heard of people using the bowline on a bight as a way to equalize two pieces when creating an anchor with the rope....any body know about this? Absolutely. In John Long's books they call it the "atomic clip" when used on two bolts. I used it as a trad anchor last September in the Wichita's. (Sorry, no picture.) Edit: found someone's RC.com pic: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...lay_setup_38320.html [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/162391-largest_38320.jpg[/image]
I've used bunny ears (double figure 8 loop) to equalize 2 points.
Bunny Ears.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 22, 2009, 5:34 PM)
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sbaclimber
Nov 22, 2009, 7:41 PM
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As always, an entertaining video! 
That being said, and all other points already mentioned aside, I ask you....why do you make this statement, more than once....!!??
"I do not wanna see you using any ..... modified ... sort of bowline to tie into your harness"
I use a figure-8, for all the obvious reasons, but a lot of people I climb with (in Germany) use a double bowline to tie in.
Why, in your opinion, is this knot not valid as a tie-in??
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Nov 22, 2009, 7:43 PM)
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 22, 2009, 9:49 PM
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acorneau wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: Interesting come-back...I've never seen anyone tie in with a bowline ON a bight, which makes me think you might be lying...besides the fact that you can't tie in to the "hard points" without doing it as a retrace/follow-through, which makes it a serious PITA. Retraced or not, it's still a bowline on a bight. If you want to give it another name then just let me know. But no, it's not a PITA at all, takes just as long as a Fig-8 follow-through.
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ski.ninja
Nov 22, 2009, 10:09 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: As always, an entertaining video! That being said, and all other points already mentioned aside, I ask you....why do you make this statement, more than once....!!?? "I do not wanna see you using any ..... modified ... sort of bowline to tie into your harness" I use a figure-8, for all the obvious reasons, but a lot of people I climb with (in Germany) use a double bowline to tie in. Why, in your opinion, is this knot not valid as a tie-in??
If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me.
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johnwesely
Nov 22, 2009, 10:35 PM
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ski.ninja wrote: sbaclimber wrote: As always, an entertaining video! That being said, and all other points already mentioned aside, I ask you....why do you make this statement, more than once....!!?? "I do not wanna see you using any ..... modified ... sort of bowline to tie into your harness" I use a figure-8, for all the obvious reasons, but a lot of people I climb with (in Germany) use a double bowline to tie in. Why, in your opinion, is this knot not valid as a tie-in?? If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me.
If you tie it right, it looks like the Rolling Stones tongue. Problem solved.
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sungam
Nov 22, 2009, 10:40 PM
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johnwesely wrote: ski.ninja wrote: sbaclimber wrote: As always, an entertaining video! That being said, and all other points already mentioned aside, I ask you....why do you make this statement, more than once....!!?? "I do not wanna see you using any ..... modified ... sort of bowline to tie into your harness" I use a figure-8, for all the obvious reasons, but a lot of people I climb with (in Germany) use a double bowline to tie in. Why, in your opinion, is this knot not valid as a tie-in?? If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. If you tie it right, it looks like the Rolling Stones tongue. Problem solved.  I love you, man.
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johnwesely
Nov 22, 2009, 10:50 PM
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sungam wrote: johnwesely wrote: ski.ninja wrote: sbaclimber wrote: As always, an entertaining video! That being said, and all other points already mentioned aside, I ask you....why do you make this statement, more than once....!!?? "I do not wanna see you using any ..... modified ... sort of bowline to tie into your harness" I use a figure-8, for all the obvious reasons, but a lot of people I climb with (in Germany) use a double bowline to tie in. Why, in your opinion, is this knot not valid as a tie-in?? If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. If you tie it right, it looks like the Rolling Stones tongue. Problem solved. I love you, man.
I never was very good with math, so it is easier for me to check the bowline than the eight.
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jaablink
Nov 22, 2009, 11:30 PM
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Second that.
The 8 is, easy to tie , easy to check, and stronger.
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altelis
Nov 23, 2009, 2:02 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: acorneau wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: Interesting come-back...I've never seen anyone tie in with a bowline ON a bight, which makes me think you might be lying...besides the fact that you can't tie in to the "hard points" without doing it as a retrace/follow-through, which makes it a serious PITA. Retraced or not, it's still a bowline on a bight. If you want to give it another name then just let me know. But no, it's not a PITA at all, takes just as long as a Fig-8 follow-through. Never said it wasn't still the same knot. I'd like to see someone tie it just as quickly as a fig-8 follow through... I'd be willing to bet the majority of climbers don't know how to tie it normal, let alone as a retrace/follow through. I'm sure anyone could do it, given enough practice...I doubt anyone reading this thread can do it right now, including you.
seriously? you are willing to bet that its SLOWER to tie one knot rather than two?
(This post was edited by altelis on Nov 23, 2009, 2:03 AM)
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 23, 2009, 3:06 AM
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acorneau wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: I'd like to see someone tie it just as quickly as a fig-8 follow through...I doubt anyone reading this thread can do it right now, including you. Sorry, but for me climbing is not about "who can tie in the fastest". I tie the bowline on a bight because it's easy to tie (for me, at least) it's safe, and easy to untie after a whipper.
altelis wrote: seriously? you are willing to bet that its SLOWER to tie one knot rather than two?
Next...?
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jt512
Nov 23, 2009, 3:09 AM
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altelis wrote: I've heard of people using the bowline on a bight as a way to equalize two pieces when creating an anchor with the rope....any body know about this?
Lot's of people know about it.
Jay
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CrazyPetie
Nov 23, 2009, 4:03 AM
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hahaha that is for some reason very funny to me... And he uses his other hand, wtf?
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sungam
Nov 23, 2009, 4:10 AM
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CrazyPetie wrote: hahaha that is for some reason very funny to me... And he uses his other hand, wtf?
Someone throws you a rope. You grab it with you left hand and use it to support your weight/stop you being washed downstream. You then use your other hand to tie a bowline so you can rest in it and be hauled in.
A handy trick if you're into doing dumbass shit, as the boyscouts tend to be.
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sungam
Nov 23, 2009, 4:15 AM
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Huh, upon watching it to the end I see his left arm becomes magically unweighted at the end and joins in the fun.
Amazingly our dear friends over at "expertvillage" have an even worse tutorial.
http://www.youtube.com/...R=1&feature=fvwp
These guys should just be banzed from the internetz already.
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sungam
Nov 23, 2009, 9:05 AM
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But can anyone tie a ptftw on bight with one hand?
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 2:42 PM
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ski.ninja wrote: sbaclimber wrote: As always, an entertaining video! That being said, and all other points already mentioned aside, I ask you....why do you make this statement, more than once....!!?? "I do not wanna see you using any ..... modified ... sort of bowline to tie into your harness" I use a figure-8, for all the obvious reasons, but a lot of people I climb with (in Germany) use a double bowline to tie in. Why, in your opinion, is this knot not valid as a tie-in?? If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me.
I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance.
I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone.
I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath.
There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool.
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sbaclimber
Nov 23, 2009, 2:47 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance.
Fair enough.....
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nthusiastj
Nov 23, 2009, 3:12 PM
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angry wrote: The best part of this thread is that no matter how long it goes, noone is learning anything. It's knotsurbation.
I have to agree. I was just remembering why I don;t read these threads.
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nthusiastj
Nov 23, 2009, 3:14 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. Fair enough.....
No harder than checking any other knot that you know.
It's like saying that no one can understand you if you speak spanish. You just need to learn spanish too.
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sbaclimber
Nov 23, 2009, 3:15 PM
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nthusiastj wrote: sbaclimber wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. Fair enough..... No harder than checking any other knot that you know. 
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johnwesely
Nov 23, 2009, 3:40 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool.
I once had a figure eight that took over an hour to untie, even with a nut tool.
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angry
Nov 23, 2009, 3:46 PM
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Maybe you're just stupid?
I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot.
I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied.
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johnwesely
Nov 23, 2009, 3:56 PM
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angry wrote: Maybe you're just stupid? I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot. I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied.
Maybe I am stupid, but then, so were the other ten or so people who tried to untie the knot and were unsuccessful.
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 4:11 PM
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johnwesely wrote: angry wrote: Maybe you're just stupid? I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot. I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied. Maybe I am stupid, but then, so were the other ten or so people who tried to untie the knot and were unsuccessful.
What are the odds of that many stupid people being in one place?
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johnwesely
Nov 23, 2009, 4:18 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: johnwesely wrote: angry wrote: Maybe you're just stupid? I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot. I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied. Maybe I am stupid, but then, so were the other ten or so people who tried to untie the knot and were unsuccessful. What are the odds of that many stupid people being in one place?
Pretty low. I am not saying it wasn't an anomaly .
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knudenoggin
Nov 23, 2009, 5:04 PM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: You'd still have to tie two knots in my mind since the discussion is about doing the bowline on a bight as a retrace. Just like you must tie a safety knot on a fig-8 follow through, but not a fig-8 tied with a bight. It's about having a back up, if there's a chance a step could have been left out or skipped. When both knots are tied with a bight of rope a step can't be skipped and still resemble a properly tied knot, unlike when done as a retrace. Next...?
Well! That's the first time I've heard that distinction between tying
with/without a "back-up"/"safety" knot. Which boils down to whether
one can insist that knots be tied correctly, or must one retreat to the
lower knowledge threshold of "maybe U can't tie knots, so tie lots"?!
In other knots discussions, I've read numerous people report how their
supposed back-up knots --an Overhand or Dble.Oh. ("Strangle" knot:
= "Fisherman's"/"Half-a-Dbl-Fish."/ ...)-- loosened or came fully untied;
some good that does, other than ensure that one left "a long tail."
The re-threaded Bowline-on-a-Bight gives that 2nd pass of rope through
the tie-in points (which if the end ever loosened out of the knot would
give a conspicuous flapping tail, first pass still holding), leaves the knot
very easy to untie, and --I just discovered-- allows for some rather
neat & sure ways to tie off the end by tucking it out through the "rabbit
hole" -- finishes that not only can increase security but I surmise do
some little bit to bump strength (largely academic in relevance).
*kN*
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gmggg
Nov 23, 2009, 5:17 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: johnwesely wrote: angry wrote: Maybe you're just stupid? I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot. I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied. Maybe I am stupid, but then, so were the other ten or so people who tried to untie the knot and were unsuccessful. What are the odds of that many stupid people being in one place?
Pretty damn negligible. You use a tripod, right?
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dolphja
Nov 23, 2009, 7:19 PM
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you have a lot more patience than i do!!! i would have pulled out my six shooter and tought that green hand a lesson! my hat is off to you mike!
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healyje
Nov 23, 2009, 7:24 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: ski.ninja wrote: If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool.
Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit.
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 9:31 PM
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healyje wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: ski.ninja wrote: If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. Sorry wrong answer, guess again. I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool. Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit.
You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you!
(This post was edited by mikebarter387 on Nov 23, 2009, 9:36 PM)
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hafilax
Nov 23, 2009, 9:48 PM
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I'll tell you how to check a bowline: Pull on it; if it falls apart it wasn't tied properly. Same way you check if a lock assist device is fed properly or if a biner is locked by squeezing the gate.
I've used bowlines for the last 30 years sailing and have never seen one come apart.
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 10:01 PM
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hafilax wrote: I'll tell you how to check a bowline: Pull on it; if it falls apart it wasn't tied properly. Same way you check if a lock assist device is fed properly or if a biner is locked by squeezing the gate. I've used bowlines for the last 30 years sailing and have never seen one come apart.
You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you!
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hafilax
Nov 23, 2009, 10:04 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: hafilax wrote: I'll tell you how to check a bowline: Pull on it; if it falls apart it wasn't tied properly. Same way you check if a lock assist device is fed properly or if a biner is locked by squeezing the gate. I've used bowlines for the last 30 years sailing and have never seen one come apart. You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you!
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moose_droppings
Nov 23, 2009, 10:13 PM
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I think his emphysema is making him delirious.
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 10:27 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: I think his emphysema is making him delirious.
I agree with you! These guys in all seriousness should seek out medical attention.
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healyje
Nov 23, 2009, 10:36 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: healyje wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: ski.ninja wrote: If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. Sorry wrong answer, guess again. I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool. Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit. You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you!
Actually it doesn't, particularly given I not only don't have "the wrong answer", but I didn't have to read any posts at all or "come up" with the correct one - that you're either hopelessly clueless about bowlines, or you just delight in spewing garbage. It always amazes me when folks deem themselves 'experts' and take to the air proseltizing with flat-out inaccurate statements and conclusions.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 23, 2009, 10:43 PM
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knudenoggin wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: You'd still have to tie two knots in my mind since the discussion is about doing the bowline on a bight as a retrace. Just like you must tie a safety knot on a fig-8 follow through, but not a fig-8 tied with a bight. It's about having a back up, if there's a chance a step could have been left out or skipped. When both knots are tied with a bight of rope a step can't be skipped and still resemble a properly tied knot, unlike when done as a retrace. Next...? Well! That's the first time I've heard that distinction between tying with/without a "back-up"/"safety" knot. Which boils down to whether one can insist that knots be tied correctly, or must one retreat to the lower knowledge threshold of "maybe U can't tie knots, so tie lots"?! 
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johnwesely
Nov 23, 2009, 11:17 PM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Commenting, "not being able to tie knots, so tie lots" is funny though...just like the joke about soldering, "bigger the glob, better the job". (Both are wrong, BTW, for those that don't get it).
Maybe in Soldering, but I am a firm believer in big globs.
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moose_droppings
Nov 23, 2009, 11:19 PM
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Yeah, like the glob that ate Pittsburg, one of the nicer globs
edit: Or the glob that ate PTFTW
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 23, 2009, 11:20 PM)
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mikebarter387
Nov 24, 2009, 12:05 AM
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healyje wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: healyje wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: ski.ninja wrote: If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. Sorry wrong answer, guess again. I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool. Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit. You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you! Actually it doesn't, particularly given I not only don't have "the wrong answer", but I didn't have to read any posts at all or "come up" with the correct one - that you're either hopelessly clueless about bowlines, or you just delight in spewing garbage. It always amazes me when folks deem themselves 'experts' and take to the air proseltizing with flat-out inaccurate statements and conclusions.
I hear you! That urban cowboy guy bugs me also.
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healyje
Nov 24, 2009, 12:18 AM
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Oh, I get it now; you're a guide and you're marketing. Cool, but maybe stick with real facts instead of bad opinion, and ease up on the pablum.
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phillygoat
Nov 24, 2009, 12:55 AM
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Careful, Joe- he lifts weights!
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snoboy
Nov 24, 2009, 12:57 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Having a back-up on any knot tied as a retrace is a standard when rescue is taught.
First I've heard of it. I guess 'standards' aren't so standard really...
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mikebarter387
Nov 24, 2009, 1:34 AM
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healyje wrote: Oh, I get it now; you're a guide and you're marketing. Cool, but maybe stick with real facts instead of bad opinion, and ease up on the pablum.
If I did that I wouldn't be a guide anymore I'd be a ..a...Urban Cowboy!
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subantz
Nov 24, 2009, 1:56 AM
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Chicky you need some lovin. I life without lovin is a bitter place.
Mikey makes videos. I like Mikeys Videos. Mikey make more videos.
Healye simple suggestion. Craigslist Casual encounters.
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healyje
Nov 24, 2009, 2:02 AM
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Dude, I think you're mistaking art for reality when it comes to 'chicky'. I have no doubt you'd like Mikey vids regardless of how well anchored they are.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 24, 2009, 2:10 AM
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Y'all crack me up.
As far as the "standard" not being a "standard", I must have read all the books wrong, and gotten bad instruction from the industry leading experts.
I'll go throw away all of my referance material now...damn and I thought following printed material was an acceptable method of learning.
So...apparently, these are wrong: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/books.html
I don't care if y'all use safeties, hell I don't care if you even tie in properly, just don't fall on your belayer...
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hafilax
Nov 24, 2009, 2:16 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Y'all crack me up. As far as the "standard" not being a "standard", I must have read all the books wrong, and gotten bad instruction from the industry leading experts. I'll go throw away all of my referance material now...damn and I thought following printed material was an acceptable method of learning. So...apparently, these are wrong: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/books.html I don't care if y'all use safeties, hell I don't care if you even tie in properly, just don't fall on your belayer...
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milesenoell
Nov 24, 2009, 2:18 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: acorneau wrote: altelis wrote: I've heard of people using the bowline on a bight as a way to equalize two pieces when creating an anchor with the rope....any body know about this? Absolutely. In John Long's books they call it the "atomic clip" when used on two bolts. I used it as a trad anchor last September in the Wichita's. (Sorry, no picture.) Edit: found someone's RC.com pic: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...lay_setup_38320.html [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/162391-largest_38320.jpg[/image] I've used bunny ears (double figure 8 loop) to equalize 2 points. Bunny Ears.
+1 for bunny ears. I love that knot.
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johnwesely
Nov 24, 2009, 2:22 AM
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hafilax wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: Y'all crack me up. As far as the "standard" not being a "standard", I must have read all the books wrong, and gotten bad instruction from the industry leading experts. I'll go throw away all of my referance material now...damn and I thought following printed material was an acceptable method of learning. So...apparently, these are wrong: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/books.html I don't care if y'all use safeties, hell I don't care if you even tie in properly, just don't fall on your belayer... Rote learning will only get you so far.
Yeah, for climbers, it is more helpful to use rope learning.
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altelis
Nov 24, 2009, 3:12 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Yeah, like the glob that ate Pittsburg, one of the nicer globs edit: Or the glob that ate PTFTW
edited PTFTW for the FAIL!
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subantz
Nov 24, 2009, 3:39 AM
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You confuse me woman.
Mikes videos are entertaining.
You and me have different opinions. Thats cool we can be a item you are to smart for me. Wait a minute you could be my Suga mama couger chicky...
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moose_droppings
Nov 24, 2009, 3:57 AM
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altelis wrote: moose_droppings wrote: Yeah, like the glob that ate Pittsburg, one of the nicer globs edit: Or the glob that ate PTFTW edited PTFTW for the FAIL!
DaMN, busted.
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healyje
Nov 24, 2009, 5:33 AM
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Clearly been sucking at that stone tit too long, but then the other infant in the picture looks like he got all the brains in the family.
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airscape
Nov 24, 2009, 6:08 AM
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Mikebarter has lesbians living next door and he shaves with a katana... nuff said.
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knudenoggin
Nov 24, 2009, 6:41 AM
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: More experienced climbers than {I} have decked because they got distracted and didn't finish a retrace, and it either wasn't checked by the partner or it looked o.k....
Really? Where are the (unfortunate) reports of this?
(There was some echoed myth about Lynn Hill doing this;
her book directly contradicts that, though -- but rumors circulated
with Net-speed & breadth can be hard to chase down and squash.
"Dyneema skinny slings cut through themselves..." anyone?)-:
Also, in some instances, one might get away without completing
a Fig.8, if one has made even just one tuck, maybe, and certainly
if two are made.
In reply to: Having a back-up on any knot tied as a retrace is a standard when rescue is taught.
But that bespeaks of the mindset of SAR types. Against which, one
of their number, sorta (caver also), Bruce Smith, has just this back-up
stipulation as one of his "Myths" (www.OnRope1.com ... MythBusters).
There is prudence in uniform behavior; but there is also a stifling of
innovation and a frustration in dealing across parochial boundaries.
As for "all of those ... " books, et cetera, the points above apply,
and beyond this one can find appalling nonsense that appears in books
and is echoed by new authors w/o critical examination, and then they
are quoted, and ... Trvth By Consensus emerges!
(Man, Lipke's little 4x6 2nd is going for $30??! Heck, I'm pretty sure
it was more like half that for the Rev'd ed. I got.)
- - - - - - - -
To the "checking that a bowline is properly tied is hard" opinions,
eh, a lot must have to do with unfamiliarity, for it's a pretty brief
knot. Another thing though is the face (side) of that knot that
is typically presented -- it should be the other side: one should be
viewing the knot such that the mainline is entering it by crossing UNDER
the "round the tree" collar; all the interesting stuff that one might
do in simple extensions to secure it are best seen from this perspective.
But usually it's shown from the opposite side, alas.
*kN*
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jt512
Nov 24, 2009, 6:46 AM
Post #95 of 177
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subantz wrote: You confuse me woman. Mikes videos are entertaining. You and me have different opinions. Thats cool we can be a item you are to smart for me. Wait a minute you could be my Suga mama couger chicky...
*plonk*
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yanqui
Nov 24, 2009, 11:45 AM
Post #96 of 177
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healyje wrote: Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit.
I'm getting so old here I may be repeating myself (I think I might have told this story before). It's not supposed to be an indictment against the bowline, just a true story.
Anyways about 15 to 20 years ago I did five or six grade IV routes in the Windrivers with a good friend, Mike from Ogden, who preferred the bowline. When we climbed the West Face of Mt. Sacajawea, we ended up doing a new line somewhat to the left of the orginal route. I lead up a nice 5.8 dihedral on pitch five (or was it pitch four?) that finished on a foot wide ledge, where I set up a good belay. The next pitch was harder and belonged to Mike. He started out the ledge, which narrowed, went right and then suddenly petered out. Above this loomed a bulgy, slightly overhanging face, maybe 5.10, with some bomber pro about 15 feet up in a solid detached flake and more steep face climbing above. Anyways, as Mike was getting ready to launch up the face from the end of the ledge he casually looked down at his harness and ... (I should mention the rope was brand new and there had been some groveling lower down on the route) well ... his knot had come untied. I was one of those THANK GOD moments. Mike retied (another bowline, I suppose) and finished the pitch like a pro.
My other experience with the bowline comes from my idiotic youth. I used to like to use ... I suppose ... "the bowline on a bight" to toprope (though I'm not even sure I could tie it now). Instead of using a harness, me and some of my crazy buddies would rap a few coils of rope around our waists and finish it of with this bowline. I guess I thought it was pretty "minimalist" and "hardcore". It hurt like hell when we fell and made it virtually impossible to hangdog to work moves. What can I say? We were young and completely insane.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 24, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Wow...a knot that is easier to untie after a whipper, may actually work it's way loose and untie...weird....
There have been some really good posts in this thread, unfortunately it's the interwebz and some folks are more powerful and smarter when giving advice from behind a keyboard.
The web, and this forum, are places to start when looking for information....just don't trust your life to only that. Some folks may even post up with sarcasm...also weird.
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 1:25 PM
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yanqui wrote: Instead of using a harness, me and some of my crazy buddies would rap a few coils of rope around our waists and finish it of with this bowline. I guess I thought it was pretty "minimalist" and "hardcore". It hurt like hell when we fell and made it virtually impossible to hangdog to work moves. What can I say? We were young and completely insane.
That's hilarious.
DMT
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 1:30 PM
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I use bowline and fig 8 both, need depending. I don't care for all these stargazer reweaves though.... its the cordelette principle and I don't buy it. Ever increasing complexity to feed the gear whore urge for folks who are afraid of simplicity.
I have gone back to using mostly cloves hitches on my anchors too. .
DMT
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dingus
Nov 24, 2009, 3:21 PM
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acorneau wrote: yanqui wrote: Instead of using a harness, me and some of my crazy buddies would rap a few coils of rope around our waists and finish it of with this bowline. FYI: Also known as a bowline on a coil.
Um... ah... er....
oh never mind!
Cheers
DMT
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jt512
Nov 24, 2009, 4:28 PM
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It seems unlikely that after a fall a properly tied double bowline would "hold momentarily" and then "unravel." More likely, the knot wasn't tied properly in the first place.
And that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying.
Jay
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knudenoggin
Nov 24, 2009, 6:26 PM
Post #105 of 177
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jt512 wrote: It seems unlikely that after a fall a properly tied double bowline would "hold momentarily" and then "unravel."
That was my thinking, too.
Especially in that she was TOP-roping: the tail should be gravity-assisted
in hanging downwards, staying tied (assuming that her belayer is not
asleep).
Or were the knot to have a loose collar, and to have capsized,
that would cast a Pile Hitch in the end which should hold (though with
the movement of rope-on-harness as the now-noose slid closed).
I'm having trouble (re-)producing such behavior.
Can anyone come up with a plausible "dbl. bowline" mistying that could
cause such behavior -- and at least pass muster at the start?!
*kN*
(This post was edited by knudenoggin on Nov 25, 2009, 4:29 AM)
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healyje
Nov 24, 2009, 8:20 PM
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In thirty five years of climbing I've never had a bowline tie-in of any variety come 'untied'.
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subantz
Nov 24, 2009, 8:56 PM
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healyje wrote: Clearly been sucking at that stone tit too long, but then the other infant in the picture looks like he got all the brains in the family.
This relationship will never work. We just have nothing in common. I am sorry but its not me its you. I hope you understand but I need to be free, I cant be tied down to only climbing trad. I just need to boulder and sport some times.
Let me fly woman let me fly.
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koepkeca
Nov 24, 2009, 9:02 PM
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airscape wrote: Mikebarter has lesbians living next door and he shaves with a katana... nuff said.
+1
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snoboy
Nov 24, 2009, 11:16 PM
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Of the 4 books I own from that linked page, and the 3 courses I have taken, and my 2 SAR-RR manuals that I also checked, I can not find a single reference to backing up retraced knots versus non-retraced. I can however find glaring errors in at least one of those textbooks.
All I was saying is that "standards" aren't always so standard. Just objecting to a broad generalization.
I can see the logic behind the idea you mention, but I tend to push my team more towards learning how to tie the knot properly in the first place instead of relying on a backup.
BTW - do you back up your water knots as well?
Urban_Cowboy wrote: Y'all crack me up. As far as the "standard" not being a "standard", I must have read all the books wrong, and gotten bad instruction from the industry leading experts. I'll go throw away all of my referance material now...damn and I thought following printed material was an acceptable method of learning. So...apparently, these are wrong: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/books.html |
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yanqui
Nov 25, 2009, 12:50 AM
Post #110 of 177
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jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay
No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these.
Top roping on a sport route at Rifle:
http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents
On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks;
http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy
I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together.
(This post was edited by yanqui on Nov 25, 2009, 1:01 AM)
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 1:11 AM
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yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together.
So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing."
Jay
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jaablink
Nov 25, 2009, 1:53 AM
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Jay seems to be in a mood and just wants to argue with someone. We all get like this sometimes so dont judge him too hard.
He knows in his hart that a beginner reading this post, In the beginners forum should use a figure eight knot to tie in with because, its safe , very simple, easily learned , and easy to visually check - and yes all knots should be double checked too.
The true message Jay seems to be trying to convey is ,Think slow on the ground, and you will be less prone to make mistakes tying in.
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yanqui
Nov 25, 2009, 2:07 AM
Post #113 of 177
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jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay
A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.
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kriso9tails
Nov 25, 2009, 2:21 AM
Post #114 of 177
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yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.
The same number of times that he and his climbing partner would have to improperly double check his knot?
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MS1
Nov 25, 2009, 2:28 AM
Post #115 of 177
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yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.
Works just as well this way:
In reply to: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a figure-eight follow-through before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. |
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 25, 2009, 2:53 AM
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snoboy wrote: Of the 4 books I own from that linked page, and the 3 courses I have taken, and my 2 SAR-RR manuals that I also checked, I can not find a single reference to backing up retraced knots versus non-retraced. I can however find glaring errors in at least one of those textbooks.
In reply to: All I was saying is that "standards" aren't always so standard. Just objecting to a broad generalization.
In reply to: I can see the logic behind the idea you mention, but I tend to push my team more towards learning how to tie the knot properly in the first place instead of relying on a backup.
In reply to: BTW - do you back up your water knots as well?
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yanqui
Nov 25, 2009, 2:55 AM
Post #117 of 177
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kriso9tails wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. The same number of times that he and his climbing partner would have to improperly double check his knot?
Well that's very cute and all. and God knows how I wound up in some ridiculous thread about knots ... but I guess this is a beginner's thread, so I suppose you can fill us in on all the stories about accidents due to "improperly" tied figure eights? Accidents with bowlines are not just about idiot noobs who make stupid mistakes you never would, for example Lynn Hill wasn't an idiot noob when she almost died (although maybe she did make a mistake).
Fuck, I could care less what knot people use, but it seems like the evidence is showing that the bowline is more dangerous than the figure eight. It seems like beginners should be aware of that. Or maybe you just rather wank off on this thread?
(This post was edited by yanqui on Nov 25, 2009, 3:05 AM)
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yanqui
Nov 25, 2009, 2:56 AM
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MS1 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. Works just as well this way: In reply to: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a figure-eight follow-through before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.
Please fill us in on all the accidents due to this.
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 3:00 AM
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yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.
A better logic question: Why are supposed bowline failures never reproducible with properly tied bowlines?
Jay
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yanqui
Nov 25, 2009, 3:02 AM
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jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. A better logic question: Why are supposed bowline failures never reproducible with properly tied bowlines? Jay
Says who? That's a real question.
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johnwesely
Nov 25, 2009, 3:02 AM
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jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. A better logic question: Why are supposed bowline failures never reproducible with properly tied bowlines? Jay
Because they bowlines are tricky little bastards.
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 3:03 AM
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yanqui wrote: MS1 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. Works just as well this way: In reply to: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a figure-eight follow-through before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. Please fill us in on all the accidents due to this.
Well, there's the famous Lynn Hill accident [Edit: I was mistaken. It was a partially tied bowline.]. And I know of people who have started up a route, only to find that they never finished tying their figure eight.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 25, 2009, 3:29 AM)
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yanqui
Nov 25, 2009, 3:08 AM
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jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: MS1 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. Works just as well this way: In reply to: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a figure-eight follow-through before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. Please fill us in on all the accidents due to this. Well, there's the famous Lynn Hill accident. And I know of people who have started up a route, only to find that they never finished tying their figure eight. Jay
(This post was edited by yanqui on Nov 25, 2009, 3:09 AM)
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 3:11 AM
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yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. A better logic question: Why are supposed bowline failures never reproducible with properly tied bowlines? Jay Says who? That's a real question.
Find me one instance where someone has been able to reproduce a bowline failure after an accident. Every accident report either says the failure is unexplained, or that the knot "must have come untied somehow (or words to that effect). How about that case that you, I think, posted, where they blamed the climber rocking back and forth at the belay for causing a double bowline to untie. Was there any indication in the report than anybody tried to reproduce this? No. Thus we can only conclude that they are guessing about the cause. Please, do an experiment: tie in with a properly tied, properly backed up double bowline, rig a phony belay, and start rocking back and forth. Report back when the bowline unties.
Jay
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 3:12 AM
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yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: MS1 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. Works just as well this way: In reply to: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a figure-eight follow-through before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. Please fill us in on all the accidents due to this. Well, there's the famous Lynn Hill accident. And I know of people who have started up a route, only to find that they never finished tying their figure eight. Jay I was under the impression she had used a bowline, but I may be wrong. I met her once in the Frey, but I didn't ask her personally about this.
I was under the impression that it was a fig 8, but I could be mistaken.
[Edit: I was mistaken. It was a partially tied bowline.]
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 25, 2009, 3:30 AM)
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 3:14 AM
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johnwesely wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. A better logic question: Why are supposed bowline failures never reproducible with properly tied bowlines? Jay Because they bowlines are tricky little bastards.
They must be like my cats. They only misbehave when they are not being observed.
Jay
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johnwesely
Nov 25, 2009, 3:38 AM
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jt512 wrote: They must be like my cats. They only misbehave when they are not being observed. Jay
I tie in with the bowline retrace. If the retrace comes undone by itself, I am going to have 3 feet of rope hanging down by my feet. I am going to call bs on those reports.
(This post was edited by johnwesely on Nov 25, 2009, 3:59 AM)
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kriso9tails
Nov 25, 2009, 3:52 AM
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yanqui wrote: kriso9tails wrote: yanqui wrote: A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. The same number of times that he and his climbing partner would have to improperly double check his knot? Well that's very cute and all. and God knows how I wound up in some ridiculous thread about knots ... but I guess this is a beginner's thread, so I suppose you can fill us in on all the stories about accidents due to "improperly" tied figure eights?
I can't, but neither can I fill you in on any stories of improperly tied bowlines; I don't have any stories of people and their improperly tied knots. The articles linked earlier in the thread all seem to imply that accidents have occurred due to improperly tied figure eights. Really though, it's completely irrelevant to my point.
In reply to: Accidents with bowlines are not just about idiot noobs who make stupid mistakes you never would, for example Lynn Hill wasn't an idiot noob when she almost died (although maybe she did make a mistake). Fuck, I could care less what knot people use, but it seems like the evidence is showing that the bowline is more dangerous than the figure eight. It seems like beginners should be aware of that. Or maybe you just rather wank off on this thread?
A properly tied bowline will work. A properly tied figure-eight will work. Belaboring the point, regardless of which knot, tied improperly, leads to injury at a higher rate, the climbers involved in such incidents still failed at the same basic level: failing to double check. This basic measure could have prevented countless accidents, even those falling beyond the scope of improperly tied knots. The error wasn't in choosing the bowline, nor even in tying it improperly; the error was failing to notice the problem before climbing (and more importantly, before falling).
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Nov 25, 2009, 3:55 AM)
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johnwesely
Nov 25, 2009, 4:00 AM
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Lynn hill also did not finish her knot. What is your point? I got the impression that she never got as far as tying the first bowline, let alone the retrace.
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moose_droppings
Nov 25, 2009, 4:19 AM
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jt512 wrote: Please, do an experiment: tie in with a properly tied, properly backed up double bowline, rig a phony belay, and start rocking back and forth. Report back when the bowline unties. Jay
Since I'm 57 now, I'm guessing I'll never get to read that report.
Hell, even if I were 20.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 25, 2009, 4:21 AM)
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yanqui
Nov 25, 2009, 4:23 AM
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kriso9tails wrote: A properly tied bowline will work. A properly tied figure-eight will work. Belaboring the point, regardless of which knot, tied improperly, leads to injury at a higher rate, the climbers involved in such incidents still failed at the same basic level: failing to double check. This basic measure could have prevented countless accidents, even those falling beyond the scope of improperly tied knots. The error wasn't in choosing the bowline, nor even in tying it improperly; the error was failing to notice the problem before climbing (and more importantly, before falling).
Double checking is great, and I'm not saying that using the bowline is an error. My point is that beginners should be aware if the evidence shows some added danger. For example, if the evidence shows that more problems REALLY DO occur with the bowline (even if those problems are based on error, or whatever else) then it's best to be informed about that FACT (I'm not even sure it is a fact, but it seems to be), After you admit the facts, then look for causes or explanations and use whatever damn knot you want to. To give an analogy, motorcycles are more dangerous than cars (that's a fact) but go ahead and ride one, if you want too. Just don't hide from the facts.
(This post was edited by yanqui on Nov 25, 2009, 4:27 AM)
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yanqui
Nov 25, 2009, 4:35 AM
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johnwesely wrote: Lynn hill also did not finish her knot. What is your point? I got the impression that she never got as far as tying the first bowline, let alone the retrace.
The point was we were looking for one real world example where a problem had occurred with an "improperly tied" figure eight. Real life examples of problems with bowlines can easily be produced, but no one has given one single example involving a figure eight.
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johnwesely
Nov 25, 2009, 4:38 AM
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yanqui wrote: johnwesely wrote: Lynn hill also did not finish her knot. What is your point? I got the impression that she never got as far as tying the first bowline, let alone the retrace. The point was we were looking for one real world example where a problem had occurred with an "improperly tied" figure eight. Real life examples of problems with bowlines can easily be produced, but no one has given one single example involving a figure eight.
The same thing could have happened with a figure eight. In fact, I have heard firsthand of it happening.
(This post was edited by johnwesely on Nov 25, 2009, 2:07 PM)
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 5:07 AM
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yanqui wrote: johnwesely wrote: Lynn hill also did not finish her knot. What is your point? I got the impression that she never got as far as tying the first bowline, let alone the retrace. The point was we were looking for one real world example where a problem had occurred with an "improperly tied" figure eight. Real life examples of problems with bowlines can easily be produced, but no one has given one single example involving a figure eight.
I know of two people who started up routes with partially tied figure 8s, but they both caught their mistakes and were able to downclimb and retie.
I'm actually surprised that there appear to be fewer partial tying errors with figure 8s than with bowlines. It seems to me that partial tying errors occur when the climber becomes distracted while he is tying his knot. You can let go of a partially tied figure 8, and whatever part of it you've tied will still be intact when (or if) you resume tying it; whereas, you can't easily stop tying a bowline part way. If you let go of the knot while tying it, it tends to fall apart. Thus, I would think that bowline tiers would be forced to develop the habit of finishing the knot once they start it.
Personally, if someone asks me a question while I'm tying in, I tell them to wait until I'm done tying in.
Jay
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 5:25 AM
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I suspect that if there is a downside to the bowline, it is that it is much more difficult for one's partner to inspect, and hence less likely to be inspected. First of all, it is less obvious than the figure 8 when it is improperly tied. Second, many climbers do not know how to tie a bowline, and so they cannot inspect one. Third, there are many variants of the bowline in use, and they all look different, to some extent. I've used a bowline for a decade, and, frankly, I can't tell whether the bowlines that many of my partners use have been tied correctly; the best I can do is ask, "Is your knot good?" Likewise, most of my partners can only ask me about mine. In contrast, any climber can tell at a glance whether their partner's figure 8 has been properly tied.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 25, 2009, 5:27 AM)
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knudenoggin
Nov 25, 2009, 5:28 AM
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Re Lynn Hill and the knot, or not that knot but another:
Lynn says that she did not tie a(ny) knot -- period.
(And that she had intended --was her wont-- to use a bowline.)
She was distracted by an onlooker's question, and had her rope
hidden by her jacket.
Her (misunderstood) case has been cited by some who think that
a Fig.8 has the danger of leading one to not finish tying, because
one has to tie half of it before threading it into the harness, and
so some knot is already tied, but unfinished; whereas a bowline
is either tied or nothing -- and nothing is assumed to be easy to check
(provided one makes the check).
yanqui wrote: The point was we were looking for one real world example where a problem had occurred with an "improperly tied" figure eight. Real life examples of problems with bowlines can easily be produced, but no one has given one single example involving a figure eight.
One can wonder if a problem is latent in the case of using the tie-in's
eye qua belay loop -- especially for some of the so-called "Yosemite
Finish" Fig.8s (tail tucked back down towards eye), the knot becomes
all the more vulnerable to flyping if ring-loaded.
One can point out that a Fig.8 eyeknot is essentially a sometimes used
eyeknot with an additional tuck of the tail for security (consider e.g.
the Directional (Inline) Fig.8).
And in this light, what should be promoted to the rockclimbing users
is a "SECURED Bowline", not "Bowline" -- marketing: it drives home the
point about something more than "a bowline" . Too many climbers
testify to having "used a bowline" for eons omitting the important
qualification that they secured it. Changes in particular cordage might
lead to behavior not seen in the past, too. Adding some precaution
to mere "tying it right", "cinching it down" is a prudent step. This
can be a re-tucking (there are many ways ...), or a "back-up" knot.
That above-cited "Dlb.Bowline w/Bowline Back-Up" by Mr. Pegg could
stop at Step 4 and it would be fine. -- for example. I posted a URLink
to a similar re-tucked ("Cowboy") bowline. (Oh, that "cowboy", "wrong"
bowline resists ring-loading much better than the common bowline.)
Continually a false dichotomy is presented: either use a Fig.8 eye knot,
or a (basic) Bowline. It shouldn't be put this way: one can have the
benefits of the Bowline without its failings; it's not a big hurtle.
*kN*
ps: The logic of one of those Rock&Ice article's quoted climbers
leaves much to be desired -- to wit: "I don't want to be that
one-in-a-thousand guy whose bowline fails. Both of us will opt
to be the one in 10,000,000 whose figure-8 comes untied."
Sure, you're less dead if the odds are better, huh?
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 5:40 AM
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knudenoggin wrote: That above-cited "Dlb.Bowline w/Bowline Back-Up" by Mr. Pegg could stop at Step 4 and it would be fine.
That happens to be the way I tie in. I'm the only person I know who uses that exact backup, and I know of no one who can, or even tries to, check my knot.
Jay
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sungam
Nov 25, 2009, 9:56 AM
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jt512 wrote: I know of people who have started up a route, only to find that they never finished tying their figure eight. Jay
He was incredibly lucky, to say the least. I'm not getting off the fence here, but I feel no such luck would have been had with a partially tied bowline, though that's probably harder to do.
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healyje
Nov 25, 2009, 11:20 AM
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Bowline vs. Figure-8 discussions are by definition a lowest common denominator exercise. Competent and aware rope handling is just that. Failing that basic requirement, any use of a rope - any knot - is a hazard. Again, in thirty five years I've never had a bowline of any kind come untied or anything even close to it. The main argument against bowline use boils down to the claim that people are idiots and so we need idiot-proof knots and gear. Sorry, no such thing exists.
The #1 risk associated with tying in regardless of the knot you use? It's the exact same risk that causes 95% of belaying accidents these days - STFU and pay attention to what you're doing! And in the context of today's social / group climbing scene, the risks of tying in wrong utterly pale compared to the risk of being dropped by a belayer who isn't paying attention to the business at hand. Lynn's accident simply serves to highlight the very real danger of a pre-occupied or distracted mind. The best guard against that is to approach climbing tasks as discrete uninterruptable units of work - once you start one, you remain present, involved and focused on that task alone until it is completed. That should be the rule when tying in, and it's even more of an imperative when belaying.
The number one reason the figure-8 is dominant is it's the easiest knot to comprehend and for instructors to visual verify. That's a lot of goodness and, in fact, it's the knot I teach beginners. But the idea that for a competent climber there is something overly complicated or unverifiable about a bowline is completely ridiculous. If you mainly climb steep lines and roofs you'd have to be insane to spend years struggling to untie an endless stream of cinched down figure-8's.
I suppose if you take the "we're all permanently idiots" approach to climbing and assume no one ever achieves an aware competence then, hey - all bets are off and it probably seems like everyone should tie in with a figure-8. Personally though, I do put the effort into knowing what I'm doing, paying attention, and not climbing with idiots or the incompetent (beginners and intermediate climbers being exempt unless or until they prove otherwise).
747's are inherently more complex than Cessnas, but we do not forsake their use in response - we instead raise the competence of pilots. Pilots in training, and those otherwise not capable, should know their limitations and stick to Cessnas - ditto for bowline vs. figure-8 use.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 25, 2009, 12:42 PM)
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airscape
Nov 25, 2009, 12:00 PM
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I am thinking that if someone neglected to retrace a fig 8 it is as much the fault of the belayer if that climber hits the deck.
Should one not always check each others knots?
I have seen in this discussion that people say a bowline is harder to check, but if no one is checking the knots in any case what's the point?
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USnavy
Nov 25, 2009, 12:29 PM
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healyje wrote: The #1 risk associated with tying in regardless of the knot you use? It's the exact same risk that causes 95% of belaying accidents these days - STFU and pay attention to what you're doing! And in the context of today's social / group climbing scene, the risks of tying in wrong utterly pale compared to the risk of being dropped by a belayer who isn't paying attention to the business at hand. Lynn's accident simply serves to highlight the very real danger of a pre-occupied or distracted mind. The best guard against that is to approach climbing tasks as discrete uninterruptable units of work - once you start one, you remain present, involved and focused on that task alone until it is completed. That should be the rule when tying in, and it's even more of an imperative when belaying.
Excellent post. I should print it out and hang it up at the local crag. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am seven feet past the last bolt about to fall and my belayer is looking around and spraying about his favorite GriGri color.
I think a lot of beginner and intermediate climbers, at least at my local crag, have the mentality that when they are climbing with someone more experienced that person won’t fall. "Oh, he climbs 5.12, he won’t fall". Then some advanced climbers think their experience is an appropriate substitution for attentiveness. “Oh, I have caught 500 lead falls and climb 5.12; I don’t need to pay attention to catch a fall” or “I have been climbing 15 years and I have never dropped a partner". Such is a bullshit approach to belaying.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 25, 2009, 12:36 PM)
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healyje
Nov 25, 2009, 12:37 PM
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Well, while I'm committing heresy, I would say that checking each other's knots is a relatively new practice and one I don't have any particular problem with but, on the otherhand, I don't rely on it either - I ALWAYS double-check my own knot after I've tied it and before I start to climb.
I started doing so back in the 70's after a near fatal mistake. I once took my [homemade] harness off to go to the bathroom three pitches up and didn't secure it correctly afterwards. I leaned back and took one step off an overhanging rappel when I looked down and realized the harness wasn't tied and, given the way this particular harness interacted with the rap locker, I was going to die the very next move. I managed to yard myself back in and learned from the mistake.
I was free roped-soloing at the time, which I do about 50% of my climbing. Roped-soloing informs much of my climbing and approaches to it. And so, in the case of partners checking my knots, it's simply knott an option for me 50% of the time I'm climbing. Bottomline? Someone else checking your knot is an o.k. protocol, but it is no substitute of any kind for you double checking your own knot after you tie it regardless.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 25, 2009, 12:39 PM)
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airscape
Nov 25, 2009, 12:41 PM
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Non attentive belaying is very prolific at the gym.
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airscape
Nov 25, 2009, 12:58 PM
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I suppose you are right, but if I where to belay someone and they decked as a result of a bad knot, I would feel rather bad.
Double checking your own knot is the most important.
I actually don't understand the bowline vs fig 8 vs safety discussion. Too many people have used either one for millions of years without really dieing.
So that makes me think this whole discussion must be purely about easy to tie vs untie discussion...
Personal preference is the answer.
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johnwesely
Nov 25, 2009, 2:16 PM
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USnavy wrote: Excellent post. I should print it out and hang it up at the local crag. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am seven feet past the last bolt about to fall and my belayer is looking around and spraying about his favorite GriGri color.
There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am 7 and a half feet above the bolt and my partner has not decided what his favorite GriGri color is.
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dingus
Nov 25, 2009, 2:38 PM
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johnwesely wrote: USnavy wrote: Excellent post. I should print it out and hang it up at the local crag. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am seven feet past the last bolt about to fall and my belayer is looking around and spraying about his favorite GriGri color. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am 7 and a half feet above the bolt and my partner has not decided what his favorite GriGri color is.
I prefer scratched up blue. I drug my in the sand behind my jeep so I could be experienced.
Was that wrong?
DMT
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csproul
Nov 25, 2009, 3:01 PM
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jt512 wrote: knudenoggin wrote: That above-cited "Dlb.Bowline w/Bowline Back-Up" by Mr. Pegg could stop at Step 4 and it would be fine. That happens to be the way I tie in. I'm the only person I know who uses that exact backup, and I know of no one who can, or even tries to, check my knot. Jay
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johnwesely
Nov 25, 2009, 3:58 PM
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dingus wrote: johnwesely wrote: USnavy wrote: Excellent post. I should print it out and hang it up at the local crag. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am seven feet past the last bolt about to fall and my belayer is looking around and spraying about his favorite GriGri color. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am 7 and a half feet above the bolt and my partner has not decided what his favorite GriGri color is. I prefer scratched up blue. I drug my in the sand behind my jeep so I could be experienced. Was that wrong? DMT
Well, your only other alternative was to steal a well worn GriGri from a more experienced climber such as myself. I would say that what you did was acceptable considering your circumstances.
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dingus
Nov 25, 2009, 4:37 PM
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johnwesely wrote: dingus wrote: johnwesely wrote: USnavy wrote: Excellent post. I should print it out and hang it up at the local crag. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am seven feet past the last bolt about to fall and my belayer is looking around and spraying about his favorite GriGri color. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am 7 and a half feet above the bolt and my partner has not decided what his favorite GriGri color is. I prefer scratched up blue. I drug my in the sand behind my jeep so I could be experienced. Was that wrong? DMT Well, your only other alternative was to steal a well worn GriGri from a more experienced climber such as myself. I would say that what you did was acceptable considering your circumstances.
Yes but have you filed the fucking tab off?
DMT
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 4:41 PM
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airscape wrote: Non attentive belaying is very prolific at the gym.
Really? Who knew?!
Jay
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knudenoggin
Nov 25, 2009, 4:47 PM
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healyje wrote: Competent and aware rope handling is just that. Failing that basic requirement, any use of a rope - any knot - is a hazard. Again, in thirty five years I've never had a bowline of any kind come untied or anything even close to it. The main argument against bowline use boils down to the claim that people are idiots and so we need idiot-proof knots and gear.
No, the main argument against the bowline is that it can loosen
in many of the ropes typically used in rockclimbing/caving/SAR,
& canyoneering.
Are you saying that you've never had/seen a bowline loosen
(i.e., the common bowline, WITH NO TIE-OFF of any kind)?!
A similar thread is just past current on UKclimbing, and I posted
just this question for meaning there, and got one user's "no, of
course we all tie a stopper knot" -- that is not just "a bowline."
(As I urged above, the wording people need to hear, in order to
clarify this point, is "a SECURED bowline".)
In a firm, stiffish rope, it doesn't begin to draw up securely.
The collar --rabbit path around the tree-- simply doesn't bind
that one diameter securely. And, absent that, the tail can come
out -- YMMV.
- - - -
In reply to: Do you have a link or diagram that shows the exact knot and backup you use to tie in?
On p.5 at the top, a poster gave a URLink to the David Pegg article
for the "DBBWBB", and I point to the state of that knot in Step 4
as adequate, having a simple, effective further tucking; it seemed
that jt512 was referring to this (but maybe to the full knot).
And I posted a URL to a similarly re-tucked variation which seems
quite decent. One could even tie a Fig.8 path with the tail, here,
beginning by taking the basic tail-outside bowline's tail over/across
to the left, and wrapping around under both eye legs, and tucking
it out through the central nipping loop to make the "8".
[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=4339;[/image]
*kN*
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johnwesely
Nov 25, 2009, 4:48 PM
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dingus wrote: johnwesely wrote: dingus wrote: johnwesely wrote: USnavy wrote: Excellent post. I should print it out and hang it up at the local crag. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am seven feet past the last bolt about to fall and my belayer is looking around and spraying about his favorite GriGri color. There is nothing that pisses me off more than when I am 7 and a half feet above the bolt and my partner has not decided what his favorite GriGri color is. I prefer scratched up blue. I drug my in the sand behind my jeep so I could be experienced. Was that wrong? DMT Well, your only other alternative was to steal a well worn GriGri from a more experienced climber such as myself. I would say that what you did was acceptable considering your circumstances. Yes but have you filed the fucking tab off? DMT
I bit it off with my teeth.
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jt512
Nov 25, 2009, 5:04 PM
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csproul wrote: jt512 wrote: knudenoggin wrote: That above-cited "Dlb.Bowline w/Bowline Back-Up" by Mr. Pegg could stop at Step 4 and it would be fine. That happens to be the way I tie in. I'm the only person I know who uses that exact backup, and I know of no one who can, or even tries to, check my knot. Jay Do you have a link or diagram that shows the exact knot and backup you use to tie in?
From page 5 of the thread: Double bowline with bowline backup (DB³)
I like this backup for the bowline because it keeps the tail pointing down, out of the way; however, it has one limitation: the collar of the main knot must be carefully tightened, as shown in step 5 (I'm not sure whether kN agrees with this); otherwise, the tail could potentially work its way all the way out, resulting in an unbacked-up double bowline (and a loose one, at that). In very stiff ropes, such as those you may find in some gyms, the knot cannot be sufficiently tightened. When I encounter such ropes, I tie in with a figure 8, instead.
Jay
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healyje
Nov 25, 2009, 5:20 PM
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knudenoggin wrote: No, the main argument against the bowline is that it can loosen in many of the ropes typically used in rockclimbing/caving/SAR & canyoneering. Are you saying that you've never had/seen a bowline loosen (i.e., the common bowline, WITH NO TIE-OFF of any kind)?!
Now you're talking about a different form of competence - choosing the appropriate knot for the rope and application. I've used every variation on a bowline over the decades and rejected some out of hand and used alternate variants depending on the rope handling characteristics. The requirements of safe bowline use differ in an early 70's 120m goldline rope and a modern, brand new 9.2mm. Never had an unsecured, single bowline come untied in the former, but would never tie-in to the latter with one.
I use a rethreaded double bowline w/ a 'Czech' finish and personally don't care at all for any of bowline finishes that don't rethread the harness. I particularly don't care for the obfusticating visuals resulting from the DBBB and Yosemite finishes. The visual [bowline] pattern presented in the third photo of this sequence is a fundamental and unambiguous one to verify.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 25, 2009, 5:28 PM)
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dingus
Nov 25, 2009, 5:24 PM
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healyje wrote: knudenoggin wrote: No, the main argument against the bowline is that it can loosen in many of the ropes typically used in rockclimbing/caving/SAR & canyoneering. Are you saying that you've never had/seen a bowline loosen (i.e., the common bowline, WITH NO TIE-OFF of any kind)?! Now you're talking about a different form of competence - choosing the appropriate knot for the rope and application. I've used every variation on a bowline over the decades and rejected some out of hand and used alternate variants depending on the rope handling characteristics. The requirements of safe bowline use differ in an early 70's 120m goldline rope and a modern, brand new 9.2mm. Never had an unsecured, single bowline come untied in the former, but would never tie-in the to latter with one. I use a rethreaded double bowline w/ a 'Czech' finish and personally don't care at all for any of bowline finishes that don't rethread the harness. I particularly don't care for the obfusticating visuals resulting from the DBBB and Yosemite finishes. The visual [bowline] pattern presented in the third photo of this sequence is a fundamental and unambiguous one to verify. [image]http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/6299Figure_Eight_1.JPG[/image] [image]http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/6299Figure_Eight_2.JPG[/image] [image]http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/6299Figure_Eight_3.JPG[/image] [image]http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/6299Figure_Eight_4.JPG[/image]
Cool knot. I like it.
DMT
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viciado
Nov 25, 2009, 5:38 PM
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The knot healy shows is common in europe. It has the advantage of untying easily without coming untied by itself. You do have to check it if you are working a route and falling repeatedly. Having said that, I have used it to work steep single pitch routes with no problems. The double fisherman's holds well and is easy to inspect.
I prefer not to use it on multi pitch. It is a little bulkier (two passes through tie in) and I don't want to feel like I have to look at it every few minutes (maybe just paranoid?).
(edited for spelling since I can't see a darn thing in the tiny text box.)
(This post was edited by viciado on Nov 25, 2009, 5:41 PM)
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healyje
Nov 25, 2009, 5:54 PM
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viciado wrote: You do have to check it if you are working a route and falling repeatedly. Having said that, I have used it to work steep single pitch routes with no problems. I prefer not to use it on multi pitch. It is a little bulkier (two passes through tie in) and I don't want to feel like I have to look at it every few minutes (maybe just paranoid?).
Not sure if you are really talking about the same knot or whether you are serious. The knot shown in the photo sequence above has ZERO chance of loosening or coming untied. I climb multipitch almost exclusively and that's why I use this knot - once I tie and finish it, I essentially never have to look at it again - it 'behaves' completely the opposite of your characterization of it.
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viciado
Nov 25, 2009, 6:19 PM
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healyje wrote: Not sure if you are really talking about the same knot or whether you are serious. The knot shown in the photo sequence above has ZERO chance of loosening or coming untied.
Same knot. I recognize it, use it and teach it. No offense or criticism intended. It is a good knot and I expressed a personal preference regarding multi pitch that is mostly based on the double loop taking up more space on my tie in loops. As for loosening. My experience in cyclic stressing of the knot, it showed a slight loosening of the bowline itself, which is its main advantage under cyclic loading. The Fisherman's finish held it in place in every case as you have clearly stated. Use and abuse it!
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healyje
Nov 25, 2009, 6:29 PM
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viciado wrote: Same knot. I recognize it, use it and teach it. No offense or criticism intended. It is a good knot and I expressed a personal preference regarding multi pitch that is mostly based on the double loop taking up more space on my tie in loops. As for loosening. My experience in cyclic stressing of the knot, it showed a slight loosening of the bowline itself, which is its main advantage under cyclic loading. The Fisherman's finish held it in place in every case as you have clearly stated. Use and abuse it!
No offense taken, it's just that you are all but describing a different knot altogether. All I can say to that is that you must not be hand-tightening the rope path enough as you tie it as the way I do it there is essentially no loosening of the knot proper at all in use. The fisherman finish would prevent stop any loosening at the point it engages, but if it is loosening at all - cyclic loading or not - I'd say you need to be a bit more attentive to the details of tie it. I do a lot of steep and roof climbing where I fall repeatedly and have never experienced what you describe in all the years I've been using it.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 25, 2009, 6:31 PM)
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crazy_fingers84
Nov 25, 2009, 6:54 PM
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subantz wrote: healyje wrote: Clearly been sucking at that stone tit too long, but then the other infant in the picture looks like he got all the brains in the family. This relationship will never work. We just have nothing in common. ... Let me fly woman let me fly.
i think you two have much more in common than you realize.
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knudenoggin
Nov 25, 2009, 11:33 PM
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healyje wrote: knudenoggin wrote: No, the main argument against the bowline is that it can loosen in many of the ropes typically used in rockclimbing/caving/SAR & canyoneering. Are you saying that you've never had/seen a bowline loosen (i.e., the common bowline, WITH NO TIE-OFF of any kind)?! Now you're talking about a different form of competence - choosing the appropriate knot for the rope and application. ... Never had an unsecured, single bowline come untied in the former, but would never tie-in to the latter [i.e., new kernmantle ropes] with one.
Well, alright; I hope that you can see that the words uttered all over
come simply as "a bowline" and so unless someone brings with them
the wit to interpret this as you intend, it is easy to find users tying
what you "would never" tie! And this is what the cited articles have
been putting up as their strawman to knock down.
That is why we should be advocating, defending, "a secured bowline"
for common use, to be easily untied.
(You see how united & effective the Right Wing is with "government
take-over of ..." burping out at every chance?)
In reply to: I use a rethreaded double bowline w/ a 'Czech' finish and personally don't care at all for any of bowline finishes that don't rethread the harness.
Thanks for the images. (Btw, I thought I'd copied what Aric has used
to embed my pics in some other thread so as to spare the extra step
that someone kindly took for me above; seems I have a gratuitous ';'
at the end of the URL, though IIRC that was how Aric's URL for me
looked. Well, again, thanks for the help there.)
In reply to: I particularly don't care for the obfusticating visuals resulting from the DBBB and Yosemite finishes. The visual [bowline] pattern presented in the third photo of this sequence is a fundamental and unambiguous one to verify.
Here I disagree, in part: all of the interesting knotty stuff -- the various
crossings and re-tucks -- are much better seen from the opposite side
of the bowline to what your images present. See mine, e.g.: the
mainline comes in UNDER the collar, and you see its turn & crossing
of itself; the from-hole-around-tree-back-to-hole path of the tail is
straightforward and readily comprehended; the curves & turns of the
other parts are not; they should be visible, top-side.
I REALLY think that just this simple change will go a long way to clearing
up confusion about the bowline.
Now, my complaint above applies pretty much to most presentations
of every bowline -- including that DBwBB (what a moniker).
They are all showing the wrong side of the knot. (lots of copycatting)
In the image you find so easily checkable, I'm unable to discern where
the mainline goes, what's going on behind the knot; I see the twin turns
and the pass of the tail, fine, but only that.
Turn it over, please!
*kN*
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macblaze
Nov 26, 2009, 1:06 AM
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Not really intended as a troll, but come on... 7 pages of discussion on a topic that's been beaten to death on a hundred other posts... that's pretty damn good!
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jmvc
Nov 26, 2009, 10:21 AM
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yanqui wrote: kriso9tails wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: yanqui wrote: jt512 wrote: that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying. Jay No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these. Top roping on a sport route at Rifle: http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks; http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together. So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing." Jay A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once. The same number of times that he and his climbing partner would have to improperly double check his knot? Well that's very cute and all. and God knows how I wound up in some ridiculous thread about knots ... but I guess this is a beginner's thread, so I suppose you can fill us in on all the stories about accidents due to "improperly" tied figure eights? Accidents with bowlines are not just about idiot noobs who make stupid mistakes you never would, for example Lynn Hill wasn't an idiot noob when she almost died (although maybe she did make a mistake). Fuck, I could care less what knot people use, but it seems like the evidence is showing that the bowline is more dangerous than the figure eight. It seems like beginners should be aware of that. Or maybe you just rather wank off on this thread?
I once forgot to retrace my fig 8 due to being distracted while tying it. I noticed at the second bolt, downclimbed and retied.
A good friend of mine did the same, climbed a few moves, asked to be taken on a 20ft high roof, and broke both his wrists against the deck.
I don't have any bowline stories. Admitedly I see a lot more retied fig 8s than bowlines.
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healyje
Nov 26, 2009, 11:37 AM
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knudenoggin wrote: In the image you find so easily checkable, I'm unable to discern where the mainline goes, what's going on behind the knot; I see the twin turns and the pass of the tail, fine, but only that. Turn it over, please!
Ah, now this is an interesting point relative to the requirements of validation (to recognize or establish worthiness ) versus verification (to establish accuracy [in detail]). To my mind you're talking about the latter - you want to see the other side to verify in detail that the knot was tied correctly. But when I tie a knot all I want is some visual pattern or 'knot state' which signals I have in fact achieved the desired end result. That pattern doesn't need to expose all the details of the knot, but simply serve as a consistently reproducable signal indicating the knot has been tied correctly. The visual pattern in the third sequence photo above serves that purpose very well, even if it doesn't expost the details.
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dingus
Nov 26, 2009, 1:47 PM
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I was thinking the same thing healyje... that I check the 'shape' of the knot, was how I thought about it.
If the shape is right I know the knot is good. If the shape is not right, I look closer. It could still be good, but just sloppy.
Doesn't matter to me what knot or variation either - I use fig 8s and bowlines as needed, with various rethread strategies (or none at all depending upon mood)...
yet I always look at the shape of the knot. Same too, on partner's harness.
Thanks for a really excellent thread yall!
DMT
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rgold
Nov 26, 2009, 5:03 PM
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Perspective can be a funny thing. I used bowline tie-ins (ok---"secured bowline" tie-ins to adopt KN's terminology) for quite a few years before the figure-eight came on the scene. I didn't get it: why trade a knot that seemed to be excellent in all regards for one that was bulkier and much harder to untie (load a figure eight up to, say, 1,000 pounds and you'll have to cut it open)?
I'm now into my fifty-second year of climbing and I can't say I've seen or heard anything to change my mind; I'm still tying in with secured bowlines. From crag climbing to long free routes to back-country rockclimbing to alpine mountaineering to big wall climbing, with a few technical rescues thrown in, with laid ropes and the several generations of kernmantle ropes, I've never had a bowline loosen in use or in any way appear to be compromised.
Sure, I check the knot, make sure it is properly dressed, and tighten everything up really snug, pulling on each strand of the knot individually. Doesn't everyone do this for every knot?
Full disclosure: For lead climbing I use a standard double bowline, so-called Yosemite finish, and double-overhand back-up. For top-roping the same except just a single bowline.
I use the double bowline when leader falls are possible not because of any perceived extra security and certainly not because of additional strength, which is a non-issue, but because recent testing has suggested that knot tightening can absorb some fall energy, and I suspect (without any actual testing results) that the double bowline affords more tightening opportunity.
In this regard one might note that the energy-absorbing properties of the tie-in knot are lost after a fall unless the knot is loosened and retied, an option that is far easier to carry out with a bowline.
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hafilax
Nov 26, 2009, 5:11 PM
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Another advantage of the bowline (mostly for sport climbing) is that you don't have to remember to untie the knot in the end when you go to pull the rope after lowering.
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bigo
Nov 26, 2009, 6:48 PM
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hafilax wrote: Another advantage of the bowline (mostly for sport climbing) is that you don't have to remember to untie the knot in the end when you go to pull the rope after lowering.
So true, however I have gotten almost too used to this luxury and have a couple of times almost pulled the rope after someone else lowered and left the figure eight knot ...
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Johnny510
Oct 31, 2011, 7:00 AM
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I was watching this video and I was curious. Is the way they demonstrated the safety knot on this bowline the proper method for climbing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0tW9lxdGJY
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shockabuku
Oct 31, 2011, 9:17 AM
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It is not typical and I would not use it.
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Johnny510
Oct 31, 2011, 9:34 AM
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Is there a certain reason why you would not use it? Or do you just personally not like the knot?
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shockabuku
Oct 31, 2011, 12:17 PM
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I like the bowline though I don't generally use it as my tie in knot mostly because it's simpler for me to stick with the eight.
In this case I don't like the way the finish was put on this knot. I can't say that I know for sure that's there is anything wrong with it but it kind of boogers up the tidyness of the knot which, perhaps subjectively, in my mind is associated with bad knots.
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sp115
Oct 31, 2011, 2:07 PM
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Johnny510 wrote: Is there a certain reason why you would not use it? Or do you just personally not like the knot?
I'll tell you why I don't use that finish - tie the knot up tp 32 seconds in the video. Notice the tail is under the loop that runs through your harness? Now instead of going under take the tail and bring it above that loop, finish the knot and see what happens...
I prefer the redundancy of a re-threaded bowline with a double over-hand finish. And at the risk of getting my head cut off, I'll say that re-threaded bowlines are easy to check because they don't look like a jumbled mess of twists.
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Rmsyll2
Nov 3, 2011, 5:16 AM
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What I think it shows is an odd tuck up through the locking bight before making a normal sort of tail tie.
As result of this thread, as result of seeing a person of huge experience use a Double Bowline to tie in, I've studied it a lot. The single Bowline is a good enough knot, imo, provided the tail is secured. The rethread or retraced or Yosemite finish is neat and imo is sufficient. All I see as being needed for safety is doing something with the tail. Where or what, doesn't seem to me to matter. I prefer the tail to be down, and doing a Grapevine on the main loop does that best imo; but it is not a handy place to tie it.
A single Bowline uses the least rope, makes the smallest knot, and is easiest to untie. Any other safety measures would be wise. Attached are photos showing variations for comparison (not how to tie). Bowlines have two common forms, from the direction of making the locking bight or turn or U. Inside finish is used in US; outside is called Dutch, Cowboy, or Left-hand Bowline. Coloring shows what is Single, or Double for a Bowline. For the Double, two common types of tail finish are shown, Yosemite or Retrace, and a Grapevine shown tied down. Two other tucks are shown as options, not recommendations (though I used the second one today). For comparison with contrary comments, a Retraced Eight is shown, colored to show what is buddy-checked, and the difference of having a doubling under and over. A tucked tail is shown from what I was shown as Yosemite, though that is not what has been discussed at this forum as recommended by 'jt512' etc. I have used it with no problems including untying by pulling out the tuck first, leaving a bit of slack that helps with a problem of Eights binding too tight after shock loading.
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(This post was edited by Rmsyll2 on Nov 4, 2011, 5:27 AM)
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jt512
Nov 3, 2011, 4:44 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: What I think it shows is an odd tuck up through the locking bight before making a normal sort of tail tie. As result of this thread, as result of seeing a person of huge experience use a Double Bowline to tie in, I've studied it a lot. The single Bowline is a good enough knot, imo, provided the tail is secured. The rethread or Yosemite finish is neat and imo is sufficient. All I see as being needed for safety is doing something with the tail. Where or what, doesn't seem to me to matter. I prefer the tail to be down, and doing a Grapevine on the main loop does that best imo; but it is not a handy place to tie it. A single Bowline uses the least rope, makes the smallest knot, and is easiest to untie. Any other safety measures would be wise. Next chance I have to tie in, it will be a Double Bowline with a simple tuck passing over the two turns, and enough more tail to hang down. .
I don't know what that means, but, as rgold has said, a solid backup is integral to the bowline tie-in. You shouldn't be inventing your own, unless you are an expert, which, most assuredly, you are not. Use an established backup.
Jay
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