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Rmsyll2
Mar 5, 2011, 6:35 AM
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Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed.
Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions?
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milesenoell
Mar 5, 2011, 6:40 AM
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If you said you flashed it on TR, I think people would get the idea.
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phang_nga
Mar 5, 2011, 12:46 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions?
Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions.
I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well.
Where do you normally climb?
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jbro_135
Mar 5, 2011, 2:43 PM
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milesenoell wrote: If you said you flashed it on TR, I think people would get the idea.
Yeah that or "top roped it first try" or whatever
Just saying that you flashed it without mentioning the top rope part will imply you lead it. Not that it's not a job well done to top rope a climb, you just don't want to mislead people about your accomplishments.
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Colinhoglund
Mar 5, 2011, 4:37 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? .
I'd say I did it no fall first try on TR. Nothing else really needs be said. I don't need to spray about my accomplishments, I'm just out there having fun; and climbing something hard is just a bonus. I guess you could call it a 'green point' but it seems like nobody cares about Red, Pink, green, brown or whatever anymore. To me, I either lead it clean, or I didn't. And it's more about my own personal fulfillment than spraying that I flashed a 5-whatever.
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notapplicable
Mar 5, 2011, 5:14 PM
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I know someone who calls it a Tronsight. Not really an "official" term but it sums it up pretty nicely.
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Kartessa
Mar 6, 2011, 4:47 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? .
Yeah, I say "I toproped it" because if I didn't do it clean, it's not worth talkin about.
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Kstenson
Mar 6, 2011, 6:16 AM
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phang_nga wrote: Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions. I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well. Where do you normally climb?
Actually my friend, you are wrong; very wrong.
Have you ever even climbed lead?
Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests.
I've just made the transition from Top roping to lead and it is a whole new level of pumped forearms and strained fingers.
(This post was edited by Kstenson on Mar 6, 2011, 6:17 AM)
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Greggle
Mar 6, 2011, 10:24 AM
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Kstenson wrote: phang_nga wrote: Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions. I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well. Where do you normally climb? Actually my friend, you are wrong; very wrong. Have you ever even climbed lead? Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests. I've just made the transition from Top roping to lead and it is a whole new level of pumped forearms and strained fingers.
Have you ever even top-roped? 'Cause I'm pretty sure that's what folks is talkin' 'bout.
Nevertheless, props on your gnar-tacular transition to leading. You, sir/madam, are a beacon of inspiration.
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Kstenson
Mar 6, 2011, 10:39 AM
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What are you even talking about?
Someone claimed that there is little difference in difficulty between top roping and lead which without being elitist at all is a ridiculous statement, so I explained why there is.
I wasn't looking for credits, take your sarcasm and shove it. I mentioned the transition from tope rope to leading to add credibility to my argument by showing I have actually experienced what I was talking about.
(This post was edited by Kstenson on Mar 6, 2011, 10:43 AM)
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Greggle
Mar 6, 2011, 11:08 AM
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Kstenson wrote: What are you even talking about? Someone claimed that there is little difference in difficulty between top roping and lead which without being elitist at all is a ridiculous statement, so I explained why there is.
Really? Who was it? The person you quoted originally?
Kstenson wrote: I wasn't looking for credits, take your sarcasm and shove it. I mentioned the transition from tope rope to leading to add credibility to my argument by showing I have actually experienced what I was talking about.
Circulus in demonstrando???
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phang_nga
Mar 6, 2011, 11:31 AM
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Kstenson wrote: phang_nga wrote: Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions. I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well. Where do you normally climb? Actually my friend, you are wrong; very wrong. Have you ever even climbed lead? Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests. I've just made the transition from Top roping to lead and it is a whole new level of pumped forearms and strained fingers.
Yes sir, I lead all of the time. In fact, I lead trad quite often, which is much more stressful than leading sport as you tend to spend even more time in a 'strenuous' position. I've been leading trad since the early '80s in fact.
Still, the fact remains that on-sighting (proper term?) on top rope is still commendable. I also added, in case you noticed, that leading it would be more impressive.
Peace...
(This post was edited by phang_nga on Mar 6, 2011, 11:37 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 6, 2011, 3:37 PM
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Kstenson wrote: What are you even talking about? Someone claimed that there is little difference in difficulty between top roping and lead which without being elitist at all is a ridiculous statement, so I explained why there is. I wasn't looking for credits, take your sarcasm and shove it. I mentioned the transition from tope rope to leading to add credibility to my argument by showing I have actually experienced what I was talking about.
In sport climbing, there is a marginal difference between leading and toproping. Yes, to record an onsite, flash, redpoint, whatever...you need to lead it. But seriously, once you are experienced leading you should not have much of a difference between the two. I probably lead the same as I top rope, maybe a letter apart.
Josh
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camhead
Mar 6, 2011, 4:28 PM
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abe_ascends wrote: notapplicable wrote: I know someone who calls it a Tronsight. Not really an "official" term but it sums it up pretty nicely. So if he/she had beta for the first successful attempt, would that be a "Trash?" 
Yup. Tronsite Trash, and if you get it on TR with rehearsal, then you just got the brownpoint.*
All of those fall under the definition of sending on TR, which climbers in the know simply call "GONGRADULATIONS!"
*"Brownpoint" may also refer to any climb in which a climber shits him/herself.
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robx
Mar 7, 2011, 1:43 AM
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Kstenson wrote: phang_nga wrote: Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions. I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well. Where do you normally climb? Actually my friend, you are wrong; very wrong. Have you ever even climbed lead? Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests. I've just made the transition from Top roping to lead and it is a whole new level of pumped forearms and strained fingers.
so does that mean that free soloing is easier than leading?
also, as someone else said, once you are good at leading, the difference is really marginal. especially if someone else is putting draws in front of you.
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jbro_135
Mar 7, 2011, 2:05 AM
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robx wrote: Kstenson wrote: phang_nga wrote: Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions. I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well. Where do you normally climb? Actually my friend, you are wrong; very wrong. Have you ever even climbed lead? Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests. I've just made the transition from Top roping to lead and it is a whole new level of pumped forearms and strained fingers. so does that mean that free soloing is easier than leading? also, as someone else said, once you are good at leading, the difference is really marginal. especially if someone else is putting draws in front of you.
It might mean to free soloing is physically easier than leading. But then again it may be harder because you're climbing more deliberately and carefully. Either way, the dude is right, having to make a hard clip could be the difference in sending or not, even if it's only a tiny difference.
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Colinhoglund
Mar 7, 2011, 5:35 AM
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camhead wrote: *"Brownpoint" may also refer to any climb in which a climber shits him/herself.
^^^^^^^ That was good. I can see it now. "Dude that route was so hard, I crapoed my pants man . . . on toprope."
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curt
Mar 7, 2011, 6:04 AM
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Kstenson wrote: What are you even talking about? Someone claimed that there is little difference in difficulty between top roping and lead which without being elitist at all is a ridiculous statement, so I explained why there is.
Actually, nobody said that at all.
Kstenson wrote: I wasn't looking for credits, take your sarcasm and shove it.
...and your ignorance surpasses his sarcasm by a country fucking mile.
Kstenson wrote: I mentioned the transition from tope rope to leading to add credibility to my argument by showing I have actually experienced what I was talking about.
Yet all you have demonstrated is that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Curt
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jt512
Mar 7, 2011, 7:10 AM
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Kstenson wrote: phang_nga wrote: Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions. I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well. Where do you normally climb? Actually my friend, you are wrong; very wrong. Have you ever even climbed lead? Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests.
One way to make the clip less strenuous would be not to unclip the draw from your harness while locked off. It's not like locking off helps you get the draw off your harness, is it?
In reply to: I've just made the transition from Top roping to lead . . .
Has it occurred to you that as a beginning lead climber that you might not be as knowledgeable about the difference in difficulty between top roping and lead climbing as someone who has been lead climbing for many years?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 7, 2011, 7:13 AM)
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enigma
Mar 7, 2011, 7:27 AM
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jt512 wrote: Kstenson wrote: phang_nga wrote: Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions. I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well. Where do you normally climb? Actually my friend, you are wrong; very wrong. Have you ever even climbed lead? Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests. One way to make the clip less strenuous would be not to unclip the draw from your harness while locked off. It's not like locking off helps you get the draw off your harness, is it? In reply to: I've just made the transition from Top roping to lead . . . Has it occurred to you that as a beginning lead climber that you might not be as knowledgeable about the difference in difficulty between top roping and lead climbing as someone who has been lead climbing for many years? Jay
You must have had a very good weekend, you seem nice.
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jt512
Mar 7, 2011, 7:38 AM
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enigma wrote: jt512 wrote: Kstenson wrote: phang_nga wrote: Rmsyll2 wrote: Yes, I am ignorant, as we all are until more informed. Is there an accepted term for doing a route top-rope clean first time that includes doing it clean first time, rather than simply dismissing top-rope as being unworthy of such distinctions? Sorry you feel like you'd get flamed for asking this question. There are a lot of pricks on this forum who seem to find pleasure in treating folks like they're idiots for asking questions. I'd say 'job well-done'. A top-rope doesn't physically help you up a route. It does give mental comfort, but the actual climb, if not aided by the rope at all, is still a clean climb in my opinion. To lead it would be a bit more impressive as it would add the mental challenge as well. Where do you normally climb? Actually my friend, you are wrong; very wrong. Have you ever even climbed lead? Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests. One way to make the clip less strenuous would be not to unclip the draw from your harness while locked off. It's not like locking off helps you get the draw off your harness, is it? In reply to: I've just made the transition from Top roping to lead . . . Has it occurred to you that as a beginning lead climber that you might not be as knowledgeable about the difference in difficulty between top roping and lead climbing as someone who has been lead climbing for many years? Jay You must have had a very good weekend, you seem nice.
Heh. I think you must have had a good weekend, if you perceived my post to be nice. Actually, I don't think it was un-nice at all, but that won't stop the haters from 1-starring it into oblivion.
As for my weekend, it wasn't exactly ideal. I had a "function" to attend Saturday evening, which ruled out climbing that day. For Sunday, I'd planned to go to New Jack, but my g/f "forgot" to set the alarm, so we overslept and ended up just going to the gym. Oh, well, the gym is better than nothing.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 7, 2011, 7:41 AM)
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Kstenson
Mar 7, 2011, 9:45 AM
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You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental.
No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point.
And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder?
I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
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rtwilli4
Mar 7, 2011, 12:34 PM
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milesenoell wrote: If you said you flashed it on TR, I think people would get the idea.
That's called a TRash.
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Kartessa
Mar 7, 2011, 12:46 PM
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camhead wrote: Kstenson wrote: I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. It is more strenuous to toprope sport climb roofs than to lead them.
Especially if your belaer is trying to "help" you
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csproul
Mar 7, 2011, 2:47 PM
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Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
Your perception that TRing is always easier than leading is just flat wrong. It depends on the climb, and this is an attitude generally brought on by inefficient lead climbing or fear. This is not a dig at you. I often feel the same way as you, until I actually try climbing a route both ways or really critically think about a particular climb.
(This post was edited by csproul on Mar 7, 2011, 4:09 PM)
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jt512
Mar 7, 2011, 4:05 PM
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Kstenson wrote: I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point.
Your fundamental point is fundamentally wrong. Some routes are harder to TR than to lead (and more dangerous as well).
In reply to: And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder?
First of all, you've changed your argument. This is what you originally said, and all that you originally said: "Having to lock off on one arm and hold that position while you unclip a quickdraw from your harness, clip it into the bolt and then clip your rope into the draw makes climbing lead far more strenuous and tiring than top roping where you simply climb continuously except for rests."
It is false that lead climbing is "far more strenuous and tiring" than top roping. If you're finding it far more strenuous and tiring, then you're doing something wrong, and you should investigate what that is. Your own words suggest that you're not clipping efficiently, and if you're new to lead climbing and finding it far more strenuous and tiring, then you're probably over gripping or moving inefficiently due to the added stress of leading, as well.
Interestingly, you started out by arguing against a point that was never made. Phang_nga never said that lead climbing a route isn't at least a little harder than TRing it; he only said that "a top rope doesn't physically help you up the route," and therefore that a clean top rope ascent is still a worthy ascent.
In reply to: I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
That is usually, but not always, the case. Because you have to clip the draws, you have to hang on longer at the bolts. If the clipping positions are strenuous, then leading will be more difficult. But often the clipping positions aren't strenuous, and so the added difficulty will be minor, especially if the draws are already up (as they often will be, especially on harder climbs)—most experienced sport climbers don't think there's much glory in hanging draws. And, as others have mentioned, if you have to unclip directionals, then top roping a route can be more strenuous than leading it.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 7, 2011, 4:35 PM)
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dynosore
Mar 7, 2011, 4:32 PM
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Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
As others have correctly pointed out, it only seems like a big difference to you because you're new to leading and inefficient. Rarely will having to clip a draw make the difference between sending and not once it's second nature to you.
Stop capitalizing Lead too. We all get it, you're a new sport climber and think you're all bad now. But you're not. When you Lead a trad 12 come back and spray, until then you're just leading with a little l.
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ENARE
Mar 9, 2011, 11:06 PM
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Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder.
Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration.
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Kartessa
Mar 10, 2011, 5:22 AM
Post #33 of 37
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Registered: Nov 18, 2008
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ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration.
Instead of a cheating assist, you get rope drag!
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curt
Mar 10, 2011, 6:04 AM
Post #34 of 37
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
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ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level...
And sometimes leading has a fundamental advantage to following on a physical level--if the gear was tricky to place or some piece of it got stuck.
1) That was not the original point.
2) That is still irrelevant to the difficulty rating of the climb.
Curt
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csproul
Mar 10, 2011, 1:19 PM
Post #35 of 37
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Registered: Jun 4, 2004
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ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration.
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 10, 2011, 2:24 PM
Post #36 of 37
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Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
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ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration.
That is called aid, my friend. And if this happens, you haven't even successfully top roped it.
Josh
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ENARE
Mar 10, 2011, 4:54 PM
Post #37 of 37
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Registered: Feb 8, 2011
Posts: 275
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blueeyedclimber wrote: ENARE wrote: Kstenson wrote: You are correct, he did not explicitly state it but there was a clear implication in his post that the difference between top roping and lead climbing is mental. No, I'm not ignorant. Despite all your years of experience and wisdom held superior to mine, I sincerely doubt that you and Jay can argue that to Top Rope a climb is harder and more tiring than to Lead a climb. That was my fundamental point. And Jay, I understand that yes those with more experience in Lead climbing will have developed techniques too adjust and be a better judge, but does the fact that Lead climbing requires the benefit of experience far more than Top Roping not aid my point that it is fundamentally harder? I'm not taking an elitist approach, do not twist my words. I'm simply stating that if you were to Climb the exact same climb via Top Rope and then by Lead, the Lead ascent would be harder. Top roping has a fundamental advantage to leading on a physical level. Think of the times when you were on top rope and you needed a little extra pull from your belayer to get through the crux. The added pull of the Top Rope is non existent when you are leading. While this difference is somewhat minimal, it is still something to take into consideration. That is called aid, my friend. And if this happens, you haven't even successfully top roped it. Josh
I agree. But the line between aid and top roping with slack can get blurred depending on how the climber is approaching an tronsight.
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