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AamClimber
Mar 24, 2011, 12:38 PM
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I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth.
=)
Thanks.
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sungam
Mar 24, 2011, 1:08 PM
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Meh, I tried it for a while on steep ground to help train body tension. I definitely felt it in the "core" (that one guy shitz pants in rage!!!) a fair amount, but mostly it was just annoying so I took them off.
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csproul
Mar 24, 2011, 1:26 PM
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AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks.
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jupiter
Mar 24, 2011, 2:30 PM
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I've always thought that using a chain mail suit would evenly distribute the weight across the entire body, making every movement more difficult
I would call it TRAIN MAIL.
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gmggg
Mar 24, 2011, 2:38 PM
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csproul wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. Sounds like a terrible idea to me. If you really believe that adding weight is a good way to train, at least add it so that it does not alter your center of gravity.
I would imagine that altering your center of gravity would be the whole point of ankle weights. Juggy V2/3 roofs to help with core strength and body tension.
It surely wouldn't help beyond that specific benefit though.
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viciado
Mar 24, 2011, 2:52 PM
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I agree that while ankle weights might make you work harder, they are not likely to help you make significant improvement to your climbing. Most training programs specific to climbing teach you to focus on body movement and awareness of your center of gravity. By adding ankle weights, you will be training movement with a cog that is different from what it will be when you are climbing for performance. You will most likely get more out of doing 4x4s or "laps" (see SCC or other training manuals) on the wall than by adding weight(s) to your feet..
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flesh
Mar 24, 2011, 6:17 PM
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AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks.
I'm personally a big believer in weighted climbing. I've been doing it for a few months now. I would suggest a weight vest though. Just google it. You'll find ergonomic, comfortable weight vests for around 200.00.
Get one that can range from 5-20lbs and you can exchange the weight quickly.
Not many people use them. Where I think they come in handy is as a training tool that allows one to climb an easier grade while still getting stronger. As you climb higher grades the holds get smaller. The smaller the hold, the more likely you are to get injured from it. Instead of climbing on smaller holds as you improve, mix it up and just add weight. I do this with campusing and bouldering.
For example, if you boulder v6, and you've done most of the v5/v6 boulder problems at your gym, instead of hopping on the v7 or 8's, add ten lbs and try to repeat all the v5's and v6's. I'm not saying do this all the time but as a way to mix up your training. Generally speaking the v5 and 6 will have more finger friendly holds than the v7 and 8's. However by adding weight, the easier climbs may be just as diffcult while giving your fingers a break from the stresses of climbing on smaller holds.
When adding weight, I suggest climbing boulder problems that are finger friendly by nature, like slopers and pinches, not holds that are small and crimpy, focus on open handed holds.
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potreroed
Mar 24, 2011, 6:52 PM
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I found weighted training to be beneficial, but not around my ankles. I took my ankle weights, hooked them together and tied them around my waist.
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michael1245
Mar 24, 2011, 7:19 PM
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potreroed wrote: I found weighted training to be beneficial, but not around my ankles. I took my ankle weights, hooked them together and tied them around my waist.
yes. I like this.
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jt512
Mar 24, 2011, 8:25 PM
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AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks.
It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber.
Jay
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flesh
Mar 24, 2011, 10:37 PM
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jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay
I agree, it's just silly to do weight training if your below around 5.12 or v6..... Just climb and have fun, get mileage.
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enigma
Mar 25, 2011, 6:05 AM
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AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks.
I wouldn't recommend climbing with ankle weights.
However I've climbed outside several times with a backpack on during multi-pitches, so preparation could be helpful in those circumstances.
Getting used to the extra weight as well as certain moves in tight areas such as off-widths or chimneys.
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jammer
Apr 3, 2011, 8:23 PM
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AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks.
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jt512
Apr 3, 2011, 9:06 PM
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jammer wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. If you have the gear, climb sport with a full trad rack. This will help you when you climb trad as much as it will help you with technique . . .
True enough.
Jay
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onceahardman
Apr 4, 2011, 12:28 AM
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jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay
Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please?
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ceebo
Apr 4, 2011, 1:11 AM
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A unorthodox approach is to do easy none dynamic vert routes/traverse with 1 finger from each hand, apart from pinky. You can do a single route and alternate between the 3 fingers or do a single finger type per route, not on big walls thougjh. The ring finger feels really uncomfortable at first.. but relaxing the middle finger helps allot.
It probably has injury potential if you do it wrong perhaps even if you do it right. But that is your choice to make. On jugs, instead of putting a finger as far in as you can, just rest the first finger pad on the top lip of the jug. This makes it almost impossible for you to ''power'' up on a single finger and shock load it. If you fail to use good lower body weight shift and initiation your finger will simply slip off avoiding injury. Alternatively you can use 2 fingers per hand, but that to me comes with the risk of being able to power your way up.
I initially done it with the intention of making my endurance training more interesting. It turned out to be very helpful for cog awareness and balance, and It also gives ridicules open hand strength gains.
Oh, btw.. by using 1 finger and its pad.. it does force you to stick really close to the wall so that you can get under the hold. that gives more friction on the finger. Mostly with ought that, you will fall off.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Apr 4, 2011, 1:24 AM)
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flesh
Apr 4, 2011, 4:12 AM
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ceebo wrote: A unorthodox approach is to do easy none dynamic vert routes/traverse with 1 finger from each hand, apart from pinky. You can do a single route and alternate between the 3 fingers or do a single finger type per route, not on big walls thougjh. The ring finger feels really uncomfortable at first.. but relaxing the middle finger helps allot. It probably has injury potential if you do it wrong perhaps even if you do it right. But that is your choice to make. On jugs, instead of putting a finger as far in as you can, just rest the first finger pad on the top lip of the jug. This makes it almost impossible for you to ''power'' up on a single finger and shock load it. If you fail to use good lower body weight shift and initiation your finger will simply slip off avoiding injury. Alternatively you can use 2 fingers per hand, but that to me comes with the risk of being able to power your way up. I initially done it with the intention of making my endurance training more interesting. It turned out to be very helpful for cog awareness and balance, and It also gives ridicules open hand strength gains. Oh, btw.. by using 1 finger and its pad.. it does force you to stick really close to the wall so that you can get under the hold. that gives more friction on the finger. Mostly with ought that, you will fall off.
I must say that IMHO this is very dangerous. Many climbers have suffered long lasting injuries from monos... I would never suggest to anyone but the best of the best to climb a entire route of monos and even if they were the best of the best... it would only be to train for something like action directe, a diffifcult mono/two finger route.
I'm not saying that it couldn't get you stronger but it's horrible advice for a begginner for sure and I still wouldn't suggest it for anyone. Mono's along with micro crimps should be done in severe moderation. There are plenty of other proven, safer, ways to get strong. Nothing slow you down more than injuries. You've got to stay in the game and this is just scary advice bro!
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jbro_135
Apr 4, 2011, 10:59 AM
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nope don't do this
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ceebo
Apr 4, 2011, 12:39 PM
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flesh wrote: ceebo wrote: A unorthodox approach is to do easy none dynamic vert routes/traverse with 1 finger from each hand, apart from pinky. You can do a single route and alternate between the 3 fingers or do a single finger type per route, not on big walls thougjh. The ring finger feels really uncomfortable at first.. but relaxing the middle finger helps allot. It probably has injury potential if you do it wrong perhaps even if you do it right. But that is your choice to make. On jugs, instead of putting a finger as far in as you can, just rest the first finger pad on the top lip of the jug. This makes it almost impossible for you to ''power'' up on a single finger and shock load it. If you fail to use good lower body weight shift and initiation your finger will simply slip off avoiding injury. Alternatively you can use 2 fingers per hand, but that to me comes with the risk of being able to power your way up. I initially done it with the intention of making my endurance training more interesting. It turned out to be very helpful for cog awareness and balance, and It also gives ridicules open hand strength gains. Oh, btw.. by using 1 finger and its pad.. it does force you to stick really close to the wall so that you can get under the hold. that gives more friction on the finger. Mostly with ought that, you will fall off. I must say that IMHO this is very dangerous. Many climbers have suffered long lasting injuries from monos... I would never suggest to anyone but the best of the best to climb a entire route of monos and even if they were the best of the best... it would only be to train for something like action directe, a diffifcult mono/two finger route. I'm not saying that it couldn't get you stronger but it's horrible advice for a begginner for sure and I still wouldn't suggest it for anyone. Mono's along with micro crimps should be done in severe moderation. There are plenty of other proven, safer, ways to get strong. Nothing slow you down more than injuries. You've got to stay in the game and this is just scary advice bro!
In the context you suggest i quite agree, not what i meant though. However, i would think that ''new'' climbers adding 20 lb weight vests and powering their way through routes (with the occasional crimp) is going to be more dangerous. Purely for the fact that they are able to use all fingers and hold on until they reach peak pressures under bad footwork.
Yeah my suggestion takes a certain level of body feed back awareness, perhaps i wrongfully credit people with having that. But the point is, technique is the limiting factor in what i posted. With only having 1 single finger pad per hold, it is highly unlikely they will be able to put down any kind of injury force before slipping off under poor footwork. The only way to climb like this is to stick very close to the wall (provided you stick to what i suggested), and use very good lower body movement. The fingers will only play the role of keeping you close to the wall. It also adds a certain level of caution, and makes you really respect your body in every move.
If you can think of it as a movement drill, rather than a finger building drill.. it makes more sense. Although undoubtedly fingers do get stronger. I am not a world class climber, and i certainly do not see my self as injury immune.. yet my fingers have never ever got hurt in any of my ''dangerous'' activity's. I would actually argue those are the reason why they have not got injured, and have got so strong.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Apr 4, 2011, 12:46 PM)
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jbro_135
Apr 4, 2011, 1:18 PM
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What happens when your foot pops off and you suddenly add an extra hundred pounds or more to your single fingers?
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ceebo
Apr 4, 2011, 1:37 PM
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jbro_135 wrote: What happens when your foot pops off and you suddenly add an extra hundred pounds or more to your single fingers?
Sticking to what i specified, impossible. You would have to be so strong.. that you are campusing 1/4 inch rails 3 finger open handed doubles, just to get close to holding what you imagine. But then i doubt you will credit me with enough respect to work out why.
But well, i guess ill take a pop at it. If you done the same with 4 fingers, the smallest finger (say the index in this case, as the pinky may just sp off) will reach its maximum load before the other fingers.. so what happens their, is the other fingers force the index to remain at full stretch (or full load). Perhaps you can work out the rest yourself. Or even, the smaller fingers force the bigger fingers into a more dangerous angle.. it could go either way i guess.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Apr 4, 2011, 2:03 PM)
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shotwell
Apr 4, 2011, 1:45 PM
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ceebo wrote: jbro_135 wrote: What happens when your foot pops off and you suddenly add an extra hundred pounds or more to your single fingers? Sticking to what i specified, impossible. You would have to be so strong.. that you are campusing 1/4 inch rails 3 finger open handed doubles, just to get close to holding what you imagine. But then i doubt you will credit me with enough respect to work out why.
I've personally popped my feet on a single pad mono and managed to hang on. The additional load caused some serious pain and swelling with an eventual diagnosis of a partially ruptured pulley. I never campused, or trained on a hang board. Was I strong enough to do what you say? Doubtful.
Your 'training methods' are dangerous and irresponsible to discuss. Between 'free soloing' in a gym, your horrible dynamic belay advice, and now this, I'd suggest beginners ignore your advice outright. You can feel free to continue to court disaster in your own climbing, but suggesting that others try these methods is far more than irresponsible; it is morally reprehensible to do so.
To the OP; if you're looking for better ways to train core strength, consider the books How to Climb 5.12 by Horst or The Self Coached Climber by Hunter. Both are good training tools, though I prefer Hunter's book.
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ceebo
Apr 4, 2011, 1:59 PM
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shotwell wrote: ceebo wrote: jbro_135 wrote: What happens when your foot pops off and you suddenly add an extra hundred pounds or more to your single fingers? Sticking to what i specified, impossible. You would have to be so strong.. that you are campusing 1/4 inch rails 3 finger open handed doubles, just to get close to holding what you imagine. But then i doubt you will credit me with enough respect to work out why. I've personally popped my feet on a single pad mono and managed to hang on. The additional load caused some serious pain and swelling with an eventual diagnosis of a partially ruptured pulley. I never campused, or trained on a hang board. Was I strong enough to do what you say? Doubtful.
And how many fingers on your other hand?, do you think that had no play in it?. Further more, what performance level was it at?, what wall angle?. None of witch is close to what i am saying.
Even so, you fail to see how it was your own fault in the first place for trying to stick it. That is down to your own lack of respect for your body, don't pass that blame onto me.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Apr 4, 2011, 2:16 PM)
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jbro_135
Apr 4, 2011, 3:22 PM
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So I should train myself to fall off whenever something is hard to hold? More brilliant advice.
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shotwell
Apr 4, 2011, 3:44 PM
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ceebo wrote: shotwell wrote: ceebo wrote: jbro_135 wrote: What happens when your foot pops off and you suddenly add an extra hundred pounds or more to your single fingers? Sticking to what i specified, impossible. You would have to be so strong.. that you are campusing 1/4 inch rails 3 finger open handed doubles, just to get close to holding what you imagine. But then i doubt you will credit me with enough respect to work out why. I've personally popped my feet on a single pad mono and managed to hang on. The additional load caused some serious pain and swelling with an eventual diagnosis of a partially ruptured pulley. I never campused, or trained on a hang board. Was I strong enough to do what you say? Doubtful. And how many fingers on your other hand?, do you think that had no play in it?. Further more, what performance level was it at?, what wall angle?. None of witch is close to what i am saying. Even so, you fail to see how it was your own fault in the first place for trying to stick it. That is down to your own lack of respect for your body, don't pass that blame onto me.
Performance level is inconsequential. Your suggestion is to make things harder, then fall off when they feel hard. To paraphrase, I should make a 5.8 feel like 5.12, then let go when it does. How does this teach you to improve?
I had a two finger pocket with my other hand. I didn't make a choice to hold on or not, excepting the fact that I put my fingers in these pockets. They were both sharp on the outside, not holds you just fall out of.
So here's an opportunity for you. Spray me down with the improvements you've seen from your training regimen. Are you a super strong leader? Bouldering drastically better than before? Either put up, or shut up. For anyone looking to make measurable improvement through a proven system, check out The Self Coached Climber. Don't fall for this insanity.
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ceebo
Apr 4, 2011, 3:54 PM
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jbro_135 wrote: So I should train myself to fall off whenever something is hard to hold? More brilliant advice.
Keep sticking those foot slip shock loads.. i will stick to a method that prohibits it. Let's see who gets injured first.
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csproul
Apr 4, 2011, 4:04 PM
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Ceebo...I admire out-of-the-box thinking as much as anyone. However, out-of-the-box thinking requires you to first understand what a box is.
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jt512
Apr 4, 2011, 4:46 PM
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onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please?
I've seen studies of this effect for swimming and sprinting but, after two hours of searching, I can't find them again. However, I found several sources for batting in baseball. Here are two:
Warm-up with weighted bat alters subsequent swing pattern and reduces swing speed.[1]
Warm-up swings with weighted bat decrease subsequent swing velocity, even though batters reported that the subsequent swings were faster.[2]
Jay
1. Southard D, et al. Warm-up with baseball bats of varying moments of inertia: effect on bat velocity and swing pattern. Res Q Exerc Sport. 2003 Sep;74(3):270-6.
2. Otsuji T, et al. After-effects of using a weighted bat and subsequent swing velocitty and batters' perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Percept Mot Skills. 2002 Feb;94(1):119-26.
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ceebo
Apr 4, 2011, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: Performance level is inconsequential. Your suggestion is to make things harder, then fall off when they feel hard. To paraphrase, I should make a 5.8 feel like 5.12, then let go when it does. How does this teach you to improve?
My suggestion was not to make things harder.. it was to make things more interesting, and as a result i noticed the good movement effects it had, and pure open hand strength. Re read my posts. You do not LET GO when it gets too hard.. you let go only because your lower body movement sux, and forced it on you. It has the same principle as doing a slab climb with palms flat on the wall, get the balance and so wrong and your off (or is that dangerous and stupid as well?).
In reply to: I had a two finger pocket with my other hand. I didn't make a choice to hold on or not, excepting the fact that I put my fingers in these pockets. They were both sharp on the outside, not holds you just fall out of.
So you put your fingers in mono jams.. thats unfortunate for you (hardly ''sticking'' it though is it?). Luckily easy routes do not have those.. plenty of easy release jug lip edges though.
In reply to: So here's an opportunity for you. Spray me down with the improvements you've seen from your training regimen. Are you a super strong leader? Bouldering drastically better than before? Either put up, or shut up. For anyone looking to make measurable improvement through a proven system, check out The Self Coached Climber. Don't fall for this insanity.
My improvements? not owed to just this.. but it had a large effect. I was like you, never really done campusing, i was quite scared of the injury risk tbh. But, after flesh inspired me to take the risk and go for it.. i started my first real session a few weeks back. I thought i would suck at it, but i was on 3/4 inch rails doing doubles with 3 finger open hand single pads on first session. Not impressive in the grand scale of things, but for me.. it was a shock. Considering i spent 90% of my climbing time in sport/endurance, i did not expect to have that level of strength.
In climbing terms (since i assume you will mock the campus comparison), i am on the verge of sending my first v9. It is indoor though, so i guess that does not count as progression.
Also, campusing is starting to show gains now as well, especially in my larger upper body muscles, they are definitely a weakness for me.
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shotwell
Apr 4, 2011, 5:08 PM
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Ceebo, read again. I want you to talk about how well you were climbing before doing this and how this directly caused your increased ability. Sorry, but I won't count anything in the gym. As an ex-gym staffer, I know what good the ratings typically are. Almost sending is worth nothing to me as well. Perhaps you can pull everything but the V9 moves? I don't know.
Look, isolating fingers is a proven recipe for disaster. I also don't like the idea of training with weight for anything but HIT training or campus boarding.
Regardless, I'm not going to argue everything you didn't say. Answer the original question, or stop the nonsense. You'll need to figure out how to move with the flow of a conversation if you want anyone to care what you say.
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johnwesely
Apr 4, 2011, 6:04 PM
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ceebo wrote: My improvements? not owed to just this.. but it had a large effect. I was like you, never really done campusing, i was quite scared of the injury risk tbh. But, after flesh inspired me to take the risk and go for it.. i started my first real session a few weeks back. I thought i would suck at it, but i was on 3/4 inch rails doing doubles with 3 finger open hand single pads on first session. Not impressive in the grand scale of things, but for me.. it was a shock. Considering i spent 90% of my climbing time in sport/endurance, i did not expect to have that level of strength. In climbing terms (since i assume you will mock the campus comparison), i am on the verge of sending my first v9. It is indoor though, so i guess that does not count as progression. Also, campusing is starting to show gains now as well, especially in my larger upper body muscles, they are definitely a weakness for me.
That settles it. Flesh and Ceebo are either the same troll or in cahoots.
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flesh
Apr 4, 2011, 8:01 PM
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johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: My improvements? not owed to just this.. but it had a large effect. I was like you, never really done campusing, i was quite scared of the injury risk tbh. But, after flesh inspired me to take the risk and go for it.. i started my first real session a few weeks back. I thought i would suck at it, but i was on 3/4 inch rails doing doubles with 3 finger open hand single pads on first session. Not impressive in the grand scale of things, but for me.. it was a shock. Considering i spent 90% of my climbing time in sport/endurance, i did not expect to have that level of strength. In climbing terms (since i assume you will mock the campus comparison), i am on the verge of sending my first v9. It is indoor though, so i guess that does not count as progression. Also, campusing is starting to show gains now as well, especially in my larger upper body muscles, they are definitely a weakness for me. That settles it. Flesh and Ceebo are either the same troll or in cahoots.
 haha, how are my posts troll like exactly? maybe you missed the part where i opposed training monos in any way?
The training I've posted is based on years of training trial and error and is very safe with even with a moderate level of understanding and gets results, anyone who tries will agree.
what ceebo is doing makes sense in his mind.... if he's super careful he probably won't get hurt...
ceebo, there's an old PRO TIPS with Jared Roth.. you can search it on youtube... he recommends people train mostly on crimps by doing extremely difficult one arm closed crimp dead hands off campus rungs and such. He got extremely flamed for this. Jared, has bionic fingers, he doesn't get injured. He's an anomaly. That being said, i've spoken with or read about many top boulderers who almost all say when training and what they focus on is open handed strength, you will automatically be able to crimp harder by getting stronger open even though there a lil bit different muscles. Obviously, jared doensn't care. BTW, I took his advice 8 yrs ago shortly after it was filmed... it earned me a very quick strength increase when crimping almost immediately... 3 months into doing it every now and again, it earned me an injury that to this day 8 years later... is only 90% and it took me out of the game for 2-3 years entirely...
Don't do it bro! Mistakes happen and when you play with fire you get _______!
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johnwesely
Apr 4, 2011, 8:23 PM
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flesh wrote: haha, how are my posts troll like exactly? maybe you missed the part where i opposed training monos in any way? The training I've posted is based on years of training trial and error and is very safe with even with a moderate level of understanding and gets results, anyone who tries will agree.
For some reason, I thought you were trollish. However, I couldn't find any evidence, so if you want me to, I will say I'm sorry.
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flesh
Apr 4, 2011, 8:27 PM
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johnwesely wrote: flesh wrote: haha, how are my posts troll like exactly? maybe you missed the part where i opposed training monos in any way? The training I've posted is based on years of training trial and error and is very safe with even with a moderate level of understanding and gets results, anyone who tries will agree. For some reason, I thought you were trollish. However, I couldn't find any evidence, so if you want me to, I will say I'm sorry.[/quote  I accept. Cheers.
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jbro_135
Apr 4, 2011, 9:05 PM
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uh oh
cheesetitting quotes, classic troll behaviour
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ceebo
Apr 4, 2011, 10:03 PM
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shotwell wrote: Ceebo, read again. I want you to talk about how well you were climbing before doing this and how this directly caused your increased ability. Sorry, but I won't count anything in the gym. As an ex-gym staffer, I know what good the ratings typically are. Almost sending is worth nothing to me as well. Perhaps you can pull everything but the V9 moves? I don't know. Look, isolating fingers is a proven recipe for disaster. I also don't like the idea of training with weight for anything but HIT training or campus boarding. Regardless, I'm not going to argue everything you didn't say. Answer the original question, or stop the nonsense. You'll need to figure out how to move with the flow of a conversation if you want anyone to care what you say.
Hardest i climbed outdoor was always the same as what i was climbing indoor at that point in time. This summer i will be out sending 5.12's, and next 5.13.
And i will not say this method is responsible for X jump in performance. It is a combination of everything i have been building on to date. Or in short, keeping an open mind.
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jbro_135
Apr 4, 2011, 10:10 PM
Post #37 of 56
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ceebo wrote: shotwell wrote: Ceebo, read again. I want you to talk about how well you were climbing before doing this and how this directly caused your increased ability. Sorry, but I won't count anything in the gym. As an ex-gym staffer, I know what good the ratings typically are. Almost sending is worth nothing to me as well. Perhaps you can pull everything but the V9 moves? I don't know. Look, isolating fingers is a proven recipe for disaster. I also don't like the idea of training with weight for anything but HIT training or campus boarding. Regardless, I'm not going to argue everything you didn't say. Answer the original question, or stop the nonsense. You'll need to figure out how to move with the flow of a conversation if you want anyone to care what you say. Hardest i climbed outdoor was always the same as what i was climbing indoor at that point in time. This summer i will be out sending 5.12's, and next 5.13. And i will not say this method is responsible for X jump in performance. It is a combination of everything i have been building on to date. Or in short, keeping an open mind.
nope, you'll be injured
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ceebo
Apr 4, 2011, 10:12 PM
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flesh wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: My improvements? not owed to just this.. but it had a large effect. I was like you, never really done campusing, i was quite scared of the injury risk tbh. But, after flesh inspired me to take the risk and go for it.. i started my first real session a few weeks back. I thought i would suck at it, but i was on 3/4 inch rails doing doubles with 3 finger open hand single pads on first session. Not impressive in the grand scale of things, but for me.. it was a shock. Considering i spent 90% of my climbing time in sport/endurance, i did not expect to have that level of strength. In climbing terms (since i assume you will mock the campus comparison), i am on the verge of sending my first v9. It is indoor though, so i guess that does not count as progression. Also, campusing is starting to show gains now as well, especially in my larger upper body muscles, they are definitely a weakness for me. That settles it. Flesh and Ceebo are either the same troll or in cahoots. haha, how are my posts troll like exactly? maybe you missed the part where i opposed training monos in any way? The training I've posted is based on years of training trial and error and is very safe with even with a moderate level of understanding and gets results, anyone who tries will agree. what ceebo is doing makes sense in his mind.... if he's super careful he probably won't get hurt... ceebo, there's an old PRO TIPS with Jared Roth.. you can search it on youtube... he recommends people train mostly on crimps by doing extremely difficult one arm closed crimp dead hands off campus rungs and such. He got extremely flamed for this. Jared, has bionic fingers, he doesn't get injured. He's an anomaly. That being said, i've spoken with or read about many top boulderers who almost all say when training and what they focus on is open handed strength, you will automatically be able to crimp harder by getting stronger open even though there a lil bit different muscles. Obviously, jared doensn't care. BTW, I took his advice 8 yrs ago shortly after it was filmed... it earned me a very quick strength increase when crimping almost immediately... 3 months into doing it every now and again, it earned me an injury that to this day 8 years later... is only 90% and it took me out of the game for 2-3 years entirely... Don't do it bro! Mistakes happen and when you play with fire you get _______!
Eh, what?.. even i (being stupid as they say) would not train 1 arm dead hang crimps.. my body says no.. i listen to it. I do what i know i can do.
Speaking of this. You in your own words say that campusing open handed doubles is safe yes?. Brake down my method.. open hand single finger climbing (weight over feet) is this nothing more than a platform to build open handed finger strength to go on and reap the rewards you swear are gained from open handed campusing?.
Do you not think it had some effect on my ability to (so far) 3 finger open hand campus safely?.
And Jbro, if you going to be a nob head.. at least do it with a little more style like Jay.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Apr 4, 2011, 10:24 PM)
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onceahardman
Apr 4, 2011, 10:32 PM
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jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please? I've seen studies of this effect for swimming and sprinting but, after two hours of searching, I can't find them again. However, I found several sources for batting in baseball. Here are two: Warm-up with weighted bat alters subsequent swing pattern and reduces swing speed.[1] Warm-up swings with weighted bat decrease subsequent swing velocity, even though batters reported that the subsequent swings were faster.[2] Jay 1. Southard D, et al. Warm-up with baseball bats of varying moments of inertia: effect on bat velocity and swing pattern. Res Q Exerc Sport. 2003 Sep;74(3):270-6. 2. Otsuji T, et al. After-effects of using a weighted bat and subsequent swing velocitty and batters' perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Percept Mot Skills. 2002 Feb;94(1):119-26.
Thanks for your efforts. I googled around a bit too and found even less. What I did find, as it related to climbing, agreed with you in terms of only strength/weight training for climbing once you had achieved considerable expertise in movement.
I agree with that as well, as it applies to climbing with any kind of weight attached to you.
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flesh
Apr 4, 2011, 11:26 PM
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ceebo wrote: flesh wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: My improvements? not owed to just this.. but it had a large effect. I was like you, never really done campusing, i was quite scared of the injury risk tbh. But, after flesh inspired me to take the risk and go for it.. i started my first real session a few weeks back. I thought i would suck at it, but i was on 3/4 inch rails doing doubles with 3 finger open hand single pads on first session. Not impressive in the grand scale of things, but for me.. it was a shock. Considering i spent 90% of my climbing time in sport/endurance, i did not expect to have that level of strength. In climbing terms (since i assume you will mock the campus comparison), i am on the verge of sending my first v9. It is indoor though, so i guess that does not count as progression. Also, campusing is starting to show gains now as well, especially in my larger upper body muscles, they are definitely a weakness for me. That settles it. Flesh and Ceebo are either the same troll or in cahoots. haha, how are my posts troll like exactly? maybe you missed the part where i opposed training monos in any way? The training I've posted is based on years of training trial and error and is very safe with even with a moderate level of understanding and gets results, anyone who tries will agree. what ceebo is doing makes sense in his mind.... if he's super careful he probably won't get hurt... ceebo, there's an old PRO TIPS with Jared Roth.. you can search it on youtube... he recommends people train mostly on crimps by doing extremely difficult one arm closed crimp dead hands off campus rungs and such. He got extremely flamed for this. Jared, has bionic fingers, he doesn't get injured. He's an anomaly. That being said, i've spoken with or read about many top boulderers who almost all say when training and what they focus on is open handed strength, you will automatically be able to crimp harder by getting stronger open even though there a lil bit different muscles. Obviously, jared doensn't care. BTW, I took his advice 8 yrs ago shortly after it was filmed... it earned me a very quick strength increase when crimping almost immediately... 3 months into doing it every now and again, it earned me an injury that to this day 8 years later... is only 90% and it took me out of the game for 2-3 years entirely... Don't do it bro! Mistakes happen and when you play with fire you get _______! Eh, what?.. even i (being stupid as they say) would not train 1 arm dead hang crimps.. my body says no.. i listen to it. I do what i know i can do. Speaking of this. You in your own words say that campusing open handed doubles is safe yes?. Brake down my method.. open hand single finger climbing (weight over feet) is this nothing more than a platform to build open handed finger strength to go on and reap the rewards you swear are gained from open handed campusing?. Do you not think it had some effect on my ability to (so far) 3 finger open hand campus safely?. And Jbro, if you going to be a nob head.. at least do it with a little more style like Jay.
I'm sure it could make you stronger. The difference is that I have the weight being disbursed between 8 fingers, not focused on one.
Maybe you would say that its your one finger or two fingers and 10 toes which is more than 8 fingers... IMO it doesn't quite work that way. If it was true that this was better than existing power training, i would be very hard to measure progress to know that it's working.
If it works for you, just be careful sall I'm sayin.
Probably something you shouldn't discuss when around beginners and intermediate's on this forum, unless prefaced with a strong disclaimer.
It's cool bro, really, no biggie. Don't even know why I"m posting now.
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jbro_135
Apr 5, 2011, 2:24 AM
Post #41 of 56
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flesh wrote: ceebo wrote: flesh wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: My improvements? not owed to just this.. but it had a large effect. I was like you, never really done campusing, i was quite scared of the injury risk tbh. But, after flesh inspired me to take the risk and go for it.. i started my first real session a few weeks back. I thought i would suck at it, but i was on 3/4 inch rails doing doubles with 3 finger open hand single pads on first session. Not impressive in the grand scale of things, but for me.. it was a shock. Considering i spent 90% of my climbing time in sport/endurance, i did not expect to have that level of strength. In climbing terms (since i assume you will mock the campus comparison), i am on the verge of sending my first v9. It is indoor though, so i guess that does not count as progression. Also, campusing is starting to show gains now as well, especially in my larger upper body muscles, they are definitely a weakness for me. That settles it. Flesh and Ceebo are either the same troll or in cahoots. haha, how are my posts troll like exactly? maybe you missed the part where i opposed training monos in any way? The training I've posted is based on years of training trial and error and is very safe with even with a moderate level of understanding and gets results, anyone who tries will agree. what ceebo is doing makes sense in his mind.... if he's super careful he probably won't get hurt... ceebo, there's an old PRO TIPS with Jared Roth.. you can search it on youtube... he recommends people train mostly on crimps by doing extremely difficult one arm closed crimp dead hands off campus rungs and such. He got extremely flamed for this. Jared, has bionic fingers, he doesn't get injured. He's an anomaly. That being said, i've spoken with or read about many top boulderers who almost all say when training and what they focus on is open handed strength, you will automatically be able to crimp harder by getting stronger open even though there a lil bit different muscles. Obviously, jared doensn't care. BTW, I took his advice 8 yrs ago shortly after it was filmed... it earned me a very quick strength increase when crimping almost immediately... 3 months into doing it every now and again, it earned me an injury that to this day 8 years later... is only 90% and it took me out of the game for 2-3 years entirely... Don't do it bro! Mistakes happen and when you play with fire you get _______! Eh, what?.. even i (being stupid as they say) would not train 1 arm dead hang crimps.. my body says no.. i listen to it. I do what i know i can do. Speaking of this. You in your own words say that campusing open handed doubles is safe yes?. Brake down my method.. open hand single finger climbing (weight over feet) is this nothing more than a platform to build open handed finger strength to go on and reap the rewards you swear are gained from open handed campusing?. Do you not think it had some effect on my ability to (so far) 3 finger open hand campus safely?. And Jbro, if you going to be a nob head.. at least do it with a little more style like Jay. I'm sure it could make you stronger. The difference is that I have the weight being disbursed between 8 fingers, not focused on one. Maybe you would say that its your one finger or two fingers and 10 toes which is more than 8 fingers... IMO it doesn't quite work that way. If it was true that this was better than existing power training, i would be very hard to measure progress to know that it's working. If it works for you, just be careful sall I'm sayin. Probably something you shouldn't discuss when around beginners and intermediate's on this forum, unless prefaced with a strong disclaimer. It's cool bro, really, no biggie. Don't even know why I"m posting now.
I don't think you understand, ceebo is a beginner. The guy talks about free-soloing in the gym with a three foot piece of rope attached to him.
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Rufsen
Apr 5, 2011, 7:51 AM
Post #42 of 56
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onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please? I've seen studies of this effect for swimming and sprinting but, after two hours of searching, I can't find them again. However, I found several sources for batting in baseball. Here are two: Warm-up with weighted bat alters subsequent swing pattern and reduces swing speed.[1] Warm-up swings with weighted bat decrease subsequent swing velocity, even though batters reported that the subsequent swings were faster.[2] Jay 1. Southard D, et al. Warm-up with baseball bats of varying moments of inertia: effect on bat velocity and swing pattern. Res Q Exerc Sport. 2003 Sep;74(3):270-6. 2. Otsuji T, et al. After-effects of using a weighted bat and subsequent swing velocitty and batters' perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Percept Mot Skills. 2002 Feb;94(1):119-26. Thanks for your efforts. I googled around a bit too and found even less. What I did find, as it related to climbing, agreed with you in terms of only strength/weight training for climbing once you had achieved considerable expertise in movement. I agree with that as well, as it applies to climbing with any kind of weight attached to you.
There are a few studies suggesting an improvement in sprint performance using different types of resistance training. Squats and the use of a sprint parachute both seem to have positive effects.
But i also agree that in climbing the extra weight should be reserved for fingerboarding.
1) Chelly, et al.Effects of a Back Squat Training Program on Leg Power, Jump, and Sprint Performances in Junior Soccer Players.
2) Harrison, AJ, and Bourke, G. The Effect of Resisted Sprint Training on Speed and Strength Performance in Male Rugby Players.
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onceahardman
Apr 5, 2011, 11:11 AM
Post #43 of 56
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Rufsen wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please? I've seen studies of this effect for swimming and sprinting but, after two hours of searching, I can't find them again. However, I found several sources for batting in baseball. Here are two: Warm-up with weighted bat alters subsequent swing pattern and reduces swing speed.[1] Warm-up swings with weighted bat decrease subsequent swing velocity, even though batters reported that the subsequent swings were faster.[2] Jay 1. Southard D, et al. Warm-up with baseball bats of varying moments of inertia: effect on bat velocity and swing pattern. Res Q Exerc Sport. 2003 Sep;74(3):270-6. 2. Otsuji T, et al. After-effects of using a weighted bat and subsequent swing velocitty and batters' perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Percept Mot Skills. 2002 Feb;94(1):119-26. Thanks for your efforts. I googled around a bit too and found even less. What I did find, as it related to climbing, agreed with you in terms of only strength/weight training for climbing once you had achieved considerable expertise in movement. I agree with that as well, as it applies to climbing with any kind of weight attached to you. There are a few studies suggesting an improvement in sprint performance using different types of resistance training. Squats and the use of a sprint parachute both seem to have positive effects. But i also agree that in climbing the extra weight should be reserved for fingerboarding. 1) Chelly, et al.Effects of a Back Squat Training Program on Leg Power, Jump, and Sprint Performances in Junior Soccer Players. 2) Harrison, AJ, and Bourke, G. The Effect of Resisted Sprint Training on Speed and Strength Performance in Male Rugby Players.
This is really a completely different issue.
Strength training for improved sports performance is VERY well supported in scienific literature. There is good evidence that strength training reduces certain injuries, like ACL injuries in basketball players, hamstring injuries in sprinters, and shoulder injuries in throwing athletes.
It's not surprising that swinging a weighted bat is not effective training for hitting a baseball. The forces are in the wrong direction. Still, when I was playing ball, I'd swing a weighted bat just to warm up.
But strapping a weighted vest on yourself for rock climbing? It's certainly plausible that this could be less than helpful for learning how to move effectively. Once you move well, if strength is a limiting factor for a certain route or climber, there could be some usefulness to it.
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ceebo
Apr 5, 2011, 12:43 PM
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In reply to: I'm sure it could make you stronger. The difference is that I have the weight being disbursed between 8 fingers, not focused on one. Maybe you would say that its your one finger or two fingers and 10 toes which is more than 8 fingers... IMO it doesn't quite work that way. If it was true that this was better than existing power training, i would be very hard to measure progress to know that it's working. If it works for you, just be careful sall I'm sayin. Probably something you shouldn't discuss when around beginners and intermediate's on this forum, unless prefaced with a strong disclaimer. It's cool bro, really, no biggie. Don't even know why I"m posting now.
Don't get me wrong, i know campusing is more effective at building contact and strength. At least for me it feels that way.
I simply go off first hand experience, i have done 1 and 2 finger climbing (2 finger because i know not to power up) for over a year, hell close to 2 now i guess, and i do not think i was bouldering v6 back then. Have done quite allot of dead hang sessions while not able to get to the gym as well. I am now doing allot more campusing (done some in past, not allot).
Comparing the highest risk of injury from my own experience (how it feels on my body) it is campus > hang board > 1 finger climbing. Not sure what purpose it would serve me to lie about such a thing. Perhaps campusing on bigger rungs would change my opinion.. but that would make it less effective than open finger dead hangs or open 1 finger climbing for finger strength gains alone, at least thats what i think.
It also feels that the more risk the more gain (in those 3 at least). IMO it appears that 1 finger climbing, along with hang board training was good acclimatisation for campusing. As opposed to just getting to v6, having no such background and hitting doubles.
Well anyway, you made your point i made mine.. guess their is nothing more to be said.
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flesh
Apr 5, 2011, 9:04 PM
Post #45 of 56
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Rufsen wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please? I've seen studies of this effect for swimming and sprinting but, after two hours of searching, I can't find them again. However, I found several sources for batting in baseball. Here are two: Warm-up with weighted bat alters subsequent swing pattern and reduces swing speed.[1] Warm-up swings with weighted bat decrease subsequent swing velocity, even though batters reported that the subsequent swings were faster.[2] Jay 1. Southard D, et al. Warm-up with baseball bats of varying moments of inertia: effect on bat velocity and swing pattern. Res Q Exerc Sport. 2003 Sep;74(3):270-6. 2. Otsuji T, et al. After-effects of using a weighted bat and subsequent swing velocitty and batters' perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Percept Mot Skills. 2002 Feb;94(1):119-26. Thanks for your efforts. I googled around a bit too and found even less. What I did find, as it related to climbing, agreed with you in terms of only strength/weight training for climbing once you had achieved considerable expertise in movement. I agree with that as well, as it applies to climbing with any kind of weight attached to you. There are a few studies suggesting an improvement in sprint performance using different types of resistance training. Squats and the use of a sprint parachute both seem to have positive effects. But i also agree that in climbing the extra weight should be reserved for fingerboarding. 1) Chelly, et al.Effects of a Back Squat Training Program on Leg Power, Jump, and Sprint Performances in Junior Soccer Players. 2) Harrison, AJ, and Bourke, G. The Effect of Resisted Sprint Training on Speed and Strength Performance in Male Rugby Players.
I firmly disagree. Starting at around 5.13 or v7/8 I believe weighted climbing to be a huge advantage... from month's of experiece It doesn't have an effect on my technique.
Technique will only get you so far.
I have big $$$ that weighted bouldering will be common in the near future at the advanced levels.
One of the main benefits is injury prevention. Based on experience.... it's very clear to me that I would be better off bouldering friendly v8's with 20 lbs on me than it would be to boulder v10's that by nature will almost always be less friendly, however, the difficulty or strength gained is equivalent. In fact, I'm so exicited about this type of training.... it's truly amazing how quickly one can get stronger while feeling significantly less sore in the fingers.
Try it first, repetitively, yourself. Then report back.
The best way I've found is to get a bunch of hard boulder problems dialed at my gym that are friendly, then add weight and repeat them.
I'm sure it's possible that it could hurt your technique, but used as power training/to stave off injury when your body is telling you to slow down, it's money. MONEY!
Is technique really that complicated for those of us that have done the same moves thousands of times already anyway?
Very rarely at this point do I learn a new "technique" and even more rare are the times that the new technique I learn would not have been learned if I had some extra weight on me.
For beginners, bad, for advanced to semi pro to pro ... it's money... me and all my friends do it. They all boulder v11-v14.
Anyone who disagrees owes it to themselves to try it first.
I reccoment the Ironware UNI vest. The 10 lb vest is most comfortable, however I like the 20 lb vest for versatility is weight. 10 lbs you almost dont notice, which is neat becaue you have to be 5-10% stronger to do the same climb with it on. I like 20 lbs better, you'll find you really have to bear down and exagerate your movement. Then you take it off and float up the rock.
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jbro_135
Apr 5, 2011, 11:25 PM
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flesh wrote: Rufsen wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please? I've seen studies of this effect for swimming and sprinting but, after two hours of searching, I can't find them again. However, I found several sources for batting in baseball. Here are two: Warm-up with weighted bat alters subsequent swing pattern and reduces swing speed.[1] Warm-up swings with weighted bat decrease subsequent swing velocity, even though batters reported that the subsequent swings were faster.[2] Jay 1. Southard D, et al. Warm-up with baseball bats of varying moments of inertia: effect on bat velocity and swing pattern. Res Q Exerc Sport. 2003 Sep;74(3):270-6. 2. Otsuji T, et al. After-effects of using a weighted bat and subsequent swing velocitty and batters' perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Percept Mot Skills. 2002 Feb;94(1):119-26. Thanks for your efforts. I googled around a bit too and found even less. What I did find, as it related to climbing, agreed with you in terms of only strength/weight training for climbing once you had achieved considerable expertise in movement. I agree with that as well, as it applies to climbing with any kind of weight attached to you. There are a few studies suggesting an improvement in sprint performance using different types of resistance training. Squats and the use of a sprint parachute both seem to have positive effects. But i also agree that in climbing the extra weight should be reserved for fingerboarding. 1) Chelly, et al.Effects of a Back Squat Training Program on Leg Power, Jump, and Sprint Performances in Junior Soccer Players. 2) Harrison, AJ, and Bourke, G. The Effect of Resisted Sprint Training on Speed and Strength Performance in Male Rugby Players. I firmly disagree. Starting at around 5.13 or v7/8 I believe weighted climbing to be a huge advantage... from month's of experiece It doesn't have an effect on my technique. Technique will only get you so far. I have big $$$ that weighted bouldering will be common in the near future at the advanced levels. One of the main benefits is injury prevention. Based on experience.... it's very clear to me that I would be better off bouldering friendly v8's with 20 lbs on me than it would be to boulder v10's that by nature will almost always be less friendly, however, the difficulty or strength gained is equivalent. In fact, I'm so exicited about this type of training.... it's truly amazing how quickly one can get stronger while feeling significantly less sore in the fingers. Try it first, repetitively, yourself. Then report back. The best way I've found is to get a bunch of hard boulder problems dialed at my gym that are friendly, then add weight and repeat them. I'm sure it's possible that it could hurt your technique, but used as power training/to stave off injury when your body is telling you to slow down, it's money. MONEY! Is technique really that complicated for those of us that have done the same moves thousands of times already anyway? Very rarely at this point do I learn a new "technique" and even more rare are the times that the new technique I learn would not have been learned if I had some extra weight on me. For beginners, bad, for advanced to semi pro to pro ... it's money... me and all my friends do it. They all boulder v11-v14. Anyone who disagrees owes it to themselves to try it first. I reccoment the Ironware UNI vest. The 10 lb vest is most comfortable, however I like the 20 lb vest for versatility is weight. 10 lbs you almost dont notice, which is neat becaue you have to be 5-10% stronger to do the same climb with it on. I like 20 lbs better, you'll find you really have to bear down and exagerate your movement. Then you take it off and float up the rock.
The studies are talking about baseball swings. Compared to baseball swings, rock climbing is significantly more complex, so your logic doesn't make sense. You can't have climbing techniques more "dialed" than a professional baseball player has their swing perfected.
I'm sure lots of baseball players would agree with your last statement that after weighted training their movements feel significantly easier and they feel stronger and faster. However, the study shows that that is not actually the case. You've missed the point completely, and you're also a spraylord.
Ok now here's what I just said in language you can understand (anecdotes and spray, lack of any scientific or logical basis):
I know someone who climbs v12, is a woman, and doesn't do weighted training.
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aerili
Apr 6, 2011, 12:06 AM
Post #47 of 56
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onceahardman wrote: This is really a completely different issue. Strength training for improved sports performance is VERY well supported in scienific literature. There is good evidence that strength training reduces certain injuries, like ACL injuries in basketball players, hamstring injuries in sprinters, and shoulder injuries in throwing athletes. It's not surprising that swinging a weighted bat is not effective training for hitting a baseball. The forces are in the wrong direction. Still, when I was playing ball, I'd swing a weighted bat just to warm up. But strapping a weighted vest on yourself for rock climbing? It's certainly plausible that this could be less than helpful for learning how to move effectively. Once you move well, if strength is a limiting factor for a certain route or climber, there could be some usefulness to it.
His example of running with a sprint parachute is weighted training, so it does fall into the category of training being discussed.
Actually, research has found that both over-weighting and under-weighting sports equipment can produce gains in performance greater than that of standard training, but only (that I know of) when the weight added or subtracted is VERY SMALL. I think the research emerging for using weighted baseballs in this manner is aggregating.
Other research has found such added weight to reduce performance. So there is no completely clear consensus yet, especially for most sports outside baseball.
Therefore, this has virtually no bearing on rock climbing with added weight.
I do have a friend who is a 12/13 sport climber and he regularly trains with a weighted vest on a home wall (up to 20 lb I think). He believes it has allowed him to break into 13s. Who can say 'for sure'?
I still feel that any additional weight should be added only during non-skill training (hangboard, campusing, etc) and with great caution to how much intensity and frequency one would use such methods.
Certainly ankle weights are a TERRIBLE idea for climbers. It doesn't matter how long you have been climbing, adding artificial weight to your feet of all places is downright stupid.
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flesh
Apr 6, 2011, 12:09 AM
Post #48 of 56
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jbro_135 wrote: flesh wrote: Rufsen wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please? I've seen studies of this effect for swimming and sprinting but, after two hours of searching, I can't find them again. However, I found several sources for batting in baseball. Here are two: Warm-up with weighted bat alters subsequent swing pattern and reduces swing speed.[1] Warm-up swings with weighted bat decrease subsequent swing velocity, even though batters reported that the subsequent swings were faster.[2] Jay 1. Southard D, et al. Warm-up with baseball bats of varying moments of inertia: effect on bat velocity and swing pattern. Res Q Exerc Sport. 2003 Sep;74(3):270-6. 2. Otsuji T, et al. After-effects of using a weighted bat and subsequent swing velocitty and batters' perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Percept Mot Skills. 2002 Feb;94(1):119-26. Thanks for your efforts. I googled around a bit too and found even less. What I did find, as it related to climbing, agreed with you in terms of only strength/weight training for climbing once you had achieved considerable expertise in movement. I agree with that as well, as it applies to climbing with any kind of weight attached to you. There are a few studies suggesting an improvement in sprint performance using different types of resistance training. Squats and the use of a sprint parachute both seem to have positive effects. But i also agree that in climbing the extra weight should be reserved for fingerboarding. 1) Chelly, et al.Effects of a Back Squat Training Program on Leg Power, Jump, and Sprint Performances in Junior Soccer Players. 2) Harrison, AJ, and Bourke, G. The Effect of Resisted Sprint Training on Speed and Strength Performance in Male Rugby Players. I firmly disagree. Starting at around 5.13 or v7/8 I believe weighted climbing to be a huge advantage... from month's of experiece It doesn't have an effect on my technique. Technique will only get you so far. I have big $$$ that weighted bouldering will be common in the near future at the advanced levels. One of the main benefits is injury prevention. Based on experience.... it's very clear to me that I would be better off bouldering friendly v8's with 20 lbs on me than it would be to boulder v10's that by nature will almost always be less friendly, however, the difficulty or strength gained is equivalent. In fact, I'm so exicited about this type of training.... it's truly amazing how quickly one can get stronger while feeling significantly less sore in the fingers. Try it first, repetitively, yourself. Then report back. The best way I've found is to get a bunch of hard boulder problems dialed at my gym that are friendly, then add weight and repeat them. I'm sure it's possible that it could hurt your technique, but used as power training/to stave off injury when your body is telling you to slow down, it's money. MONEY! Is technique really that complicated for those of us that have done the same moves thousands of times already anyway? Very rarely at this point do I learn a new "technique" and even more rare are the times that the new technique I learn would not have been learned if I had some extra weight on me. For beginners, bad, for advanced to semi pro to pro ... it's money... me and all my friends do it. They all boulder v11-v14. Anyone who disagrees owes it to themselves to try it first. I reccoment the Ironware UNI vest. The 10 lb vest is most comfortable, however I like the 20 lb vest for versatility is weight. 10 lbs you almost dont notice, which is neat becaue you have to be 5-10% stronger to do the same climb with it on. I like 20 lbs better, you'll find you really have to bear down and exagerate your movement. Then you take it off and float up the rock. The studies are talking about baseball swings. Compared to baseball swings, rock climbing is significantly more complex, so your logic doesn't make sense. You can't have climbing techniques more "dialed" than a professional baseball player has their swing perfected. I'm sure lots of baseball players would agree with your last statement that after weighted training their movements feel significantly easier and they feel stronger and faster. However, the study shows that that is not actually the case. You've missed the point completely, and you're also a spraylord. Ok now here's what I just said in language you can understand (anecdotes and spray, lack of any scientific or logical basis): cool, it works, if you do it you'll agree, if your woman friend does it she'll agree. My significant deductive skills tell me that if it works so well that it's obvious, it's true! If I had you do it 2 a week for the next month and as a result, you could redpoint/onsight harder than you have before, would you think it works? Would you say to yourself, well, I better go look this up and find evidence as to whether it works or not? I don't need to look it up. I know three people who have done it and they all saw dramatic results not only in being able to climb higher grades and onsight higher grades but there fingers hurt less too. My brother played college baseball... I was a little league all star pitcher. Having a perfect swing is baseball is not comparable to how much difference it makes if you bicycle or toe hook that stalagtite, or if you back flag or back step the little toe scum.... or whether or not you grab the hold tomahawk or you wrap it. While it may make it slightly easier to do an individual move if you used a drop knee instead of a back step... in degree and significance when compared to a baseball swing... they are way off. If your swing is off by 5% its the difference between success or failure... if the amount of energy you expend with perfect technique versus decent technique doing a climbing move is off by 5% you could easily make up for the by being stronger or pushing yourself harder. Like I said, call me whatever you want...... if you do it..... you will agree. This isn't theory for me.... I"VE DONE IT and it works. But if you want to keep going back and forth about things I've tried that you'd like to discredit even though you aren't willing to test it yourself... we can do that too. I need breaks at work.
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jt512
Apr 6, 2011, 12:34 AM
Post #49 of 56
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flesh wrote: Like I said, call me whatever you want...... if you do it..... you will agree. This isn't theory for me.... I"VE DONE IT and it works. But if you want to keep going back and forth about things I've tried that you'd like to discredit even though you aren't willing to test it yourself... we can do that too. I need breaks at work.
Flesh, elsewhere you described what you did in more detail. You lost a significant amount of weight and began a training program that included weighted and unweighted campusing and bouldering. After a few months you broke through a plateau.
However, because your regimen was multi-faceted, you can't say for certain which elements of it were responsible for your progress: maybe it was just the weight loss, or the campusing. Maybe the weighted bouldering did nothing, or even impeded your progress. You cannot say that you did X, Y, and Z simultaneously, and then claim that each of X, Y, and Z, was itself responsible for your improvement, which is, among various posts, precisely what you've done.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 6, 2011, 12:36 AM)
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flesh
Apr 6, 2011, 12:58 AM
Post #50 of 56
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jt512 wrote: flesh wrote: Like I said, call me whatever you want...... if you do it..... you will agree. This isn't theory for me.... I"VE DONE IT and it works. But if you want to keep going back and forth about things I've tried that you'd like to discredit even though you aren't willing to test it yourself... we can do that too. I need breaks at work. Flesh, elsewhere you described what you did in more detail. You lost a significant amount of weight and began a training program that included weighted and unweighted campusing and bouldering. After a few months you broke through a plateau. However, because your regimen was multi-faceted, you can't say for certain which elements of it were responsible for your progress: maybe it was just the weight loss, or the campusing. Maybe the weighted bouldering did nothing, or even impeded your progress. You cannot say that you did X, Y, and Z simultaneously, and then claim that each of X, Y, and Z, was itself responsible for your improvement, which is, among various posts, precisely what you've done. Jay
What you say makes sense. Nothing i've tried is exact. In the last month specifically though, I've only lost 2-3 lbs.... the first about 14 came off in about 6 weeks prior. Cutting weight makes a big difference.
In the last month, I've continued to see significant improvements..... it could be from alot of things... I'm doing.
Since first trying this and see big improvements, I've had three friends doing it.... starting about 2 months ago. They too have seen significant improvements. Of course, they could also be doing a number of things, and its possible that the weighted climbing actually hurt their climbing performance, however, it's very unlikely, they improved rapidly. They we're not improving rapidly before doing it and they are now.
Any of us could make a dozen different arguments for or against.
I've made it a point to cut through the #### and get to what works and what doesn't.
Proof's in the pudding. If you do it, at least once a week for at least two months, you will be surprised by the results.
One of the main components of this that isn't being touched on is not just the benefits of weighted climbin in terms of strength but also when it comes to finger connective tissue, it's easier on it.
I am the only one here who has actually done this as part of regular training (i assume) and also had friends do it that I climb with regularly. They all have weight vests now.
Try it JT, you will be
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jbro_135
Apr 6, 2011, 1:45 AM
Post #51 of 56
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flesh wrote: jbro_135 wrote: flesh wrote: Rufsen wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. It's a terrible idea, as is any weighted climbing, unless possibly you are climbing at a very advanced level. There is body of sport science literature that shows how this sort of weight training wreaks havoc on your technique, which is what you ought to be concentrating on learning, not impeding. I'm assuming you are not a very advanced climber. Jay Very interesting. I'd really like to read about it. Could you share some, please? I've seen studies of this effect for swimming and sprinting but, after two hours of searching, I can't find them again. However, I found several sources for batting in baseball. Here are two: Warm-up with weighted bat alters subsequent swing pattern and reduces swing speed.[1] Warm-up swings with weighted bat decrease subsequent swing velocity, even though batters reported that the subsequent swings were faster.[2] Jay 1. Southard D, et al. Warm-up with baseball bats of varying moments of inertia: effect on bat velocity and swing pattern. Res Q Exerc Sport. 2003 Sep;74(3):270-6. 2. Otsuji T, et al. After-effects of using a weighted bat and subsequent swing velocitty and batters' perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Percept Mot Skills. 2002 Feb;94(1):119-26. Thanks for your efforts. I googled around a bit too and found even less. What I did find, as it related to climbing, agreed with you in terms of only strength/weight training for climbing once you had achieved considerable expertise in movement. I agree with that as well, as it applies to climbing with any kind of weight attached to you. There are a few studies suggesting an improvement in sprint performance using different types of resistance training. Squats and the use of a sprint parachute both seem to have positive effects. But i also agree that in climbing the extra weight should be reserved for fingerboarding. 1) Chelly, et al.Effects of a Back Squat Training Program on Leg Power, Jump, and Sprint Performances in Junior Soccer Players. 2) Harrison, AJ, and Bourke, G. The Effect of Resisted Sprint Training on Speed and Strength Performance in Male Rugby Players. I firmly disagree. Starting at around 5.13 or v7/8 I believe weighted climbing to be a huge advantage... from month's of experiece It doesn't have an effect on my technique. Technique will only get you so far. I have big $$$ that weighted bouldering will be common in the near future at the advanced levels. One of the main benefits is injury prevention. Based on experience.... it's very clear to me that I would be better off bouldering friendly v8's with 20 lbs on me than it would be to boulder v10's that by nature will almost always be less friendly, however, the difficulty or strength gained is equivalent. In fact, I'm so exicited about this type of training.... it's truly amazing how quickly one can get stronger while feeling significantly less sore in the fingers. Try it first, repetitively, yourself. Then report back. The best way I've found is to get a bunch of hard boulder problems dialed at my gym that are friendly, then add weight and repeat them. I'm sure it's possible that it could hurt your technique, but used as power training/to stave off injury when your body is telling you to slow down, it's money. MONEY! Is technique really that complicated for those of us that have done the same moves thousands of times already anyway? Very rarely at this point do I learn a new "technique" and even more rare are the times that the new technique I learn would not have been learned if I had some extra weight on me. For beginners, bad, for advanced to semi pro to pro ... it's money... me and all my friends do it. They all boulder v11-v14. Anyone who disagrees owes it to themselves to try it first. I reccoment the Ironware UNI vest. The 10 lb vest is most comfortable, however I like the 20 lb vest for versatility is weight. 10 lbs you almost dont notice, which is neat becaue you have to be 5-10% stronger to do the same climb with it on. I like 20 lbs better, you'll find you really have to bear down and exagerate your movement. Then you take it off and float up the rock. The studies are talking about baseball swings. Compared to baseball swings, rock climbing is significantly more complex, so your logic doesn't make sense. You can't have climbing techniques more "dialed" than a professional baseball player has their swing perfected. I'm sure lots of baseball players would agree with your last statement that after weighted training their movements feel significantly easier and they feel stronger and faster. However, the study shows that that is not actually the case. You've missed the point completely, and you're also a spraylord. Ok now here's what I just said in language you can understand (anecdotes and spray, lack of any scientific or logical basis): cool, it works, if you do it you'll agree, if your woman friend does it she'll agree. My significant deductive skills tell me that if it works so well that it's obvious, it's true! If I had you do it 2 a week for the next month and as a result, you could redpoint/onsight harder than you have before, would you think it works? Would you say to yourself, well, I better go look this up and find evidence as to whether it works or not? I don't need to look it up. I know three people who have done it and they all saw dramatic results not only in being able to climb higher grades and onsight higher grades but there fingers hurt less too. My brother played college baseball... I was a little league all star pitcher. Having a perfect swing is baseball is not comparable to how much difference it makes if you bicycle or toe hook that stalagtite, or if you back flag or back step the little toe scum.... or whether or not you grab the hold tomahawk or you wrap it. While it may make it slightly easier to do an individual move if you used a drop knee instead of a back step... in degree and significance when compared to a baseball swing... they are way off. If your swing is off by 5% its the difference between success or failure... if the amount of energy you expend with perfect technique versus decent technique doing a climbing move is off by 5% you could easily make up for the by being stronger or pushing yourself harder. Like I said, call me whatever you want...... if you do it..... you will agree. This isn't theory for me.... I"VE DONE IT and it works. But if you want to keep going back and forth about things I've tried that you'd like to discredit even though you aren't willing to test it yourself... we can do that too. I need breaks at work. perhaps if you cheesetitted some more quotes your point would be more clear
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onceahardman
Apr 6, 2011, 10:06 PM
Post #52 of 56
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aerili wrote: His example of running with a sprint parachute is weighted training, so it does fall into the category of training being discussed. Actually, research has found that both over-weighting and under-weighting sports equipment can produce gains in performance greater than that of standard training, but only (that I know of) when the weight added or subtracted is VERY SMALL. I think the research emerging for using weighted baseballs in this manner is aggregating. Other research has found such added weight to reduce performance. So there is no completely clear consensus yet, especially for most sports outside baseball. Therefore, this has virtually no bearing on rock climbing with added weight. I do have a friend who is a 12/13 sport climber and he regularly trains with a weighted vest on a home wall (up to 20 lb I think). He believes it has allowed him to break into 13s. Who can say 'for sure'? I still feel that any additional weight should be added only during non-skill training (hangboard, campusing, etc) and with great caution to how much intensity and frequency one would use such methods. Certainly ankle weights are a TERRIBLE idea for climbers. It doesn't matter how long you have been climbing, adding artificial weight to your feet of all places is downright stupid.
I've been thinking a bit more about this, from a purely theoretical perspective, presently unsupported by any research.
When someone is sprinting, the goal is to move the body forward, not upward. Therefore, running with a parachute will provide resistance in the desired direction. Running with a weighted vest will just provide the need to move that weight upward, overcoming the downward vector of gravity acting upon the weighted vest. The extra effort is wasted.
Now, it might make sense for a high jumper to train with added weight. Or a basketball player concerned with increasing his or her leaping power.
Also, it might make sense (subject to further research) for an advanced climber to use weight as an adjunct to normal movement training.
I say that with trepidation, though. So many beginning climbers think that strength is the limiting factor for them, when it is not.
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Gmburns2000
Apr 8, 2011, 1:34 AM
Post #53 of 56
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jammer wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. If you have the gear, climb sport with a full trad rack. This will help you when you climb trad as much as it will help you with technique, learning how to maneuver all that gear out of your way while going from one move to the next.
why not just go trad climbing then?
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jammer
Apr 8, 2011, 5:02 AM
Post #54 of 56
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jammer wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. If you have the gear, climb sport with a full trad rack. This will help you when you climb trad as much as it will help you with technique, learning how to maneuver all that gear out of your way while going from one move to the next. why not just go trad climbing then?
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Gmburns2000
Apr 8, 2011, 12:08 PM
Post #55 of 56
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jammer wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jammer wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. If you have the gear, climb sport with a full trad rack. This will help you when you climb trad as much as it will help you with technique, learning how to maneuver all that gear out of your way while going from one move to the next. why not just go trad climbing then? Because the OP is asking about the gym and weights. One would think if they own trad gear, the trad climb, unless they just like to play with shiny new toys.
sorry, I didn't get that he was asking specifically about climbing in the gym in other parts of the thread. In that case, sure, it isn't a bad idea per se, though even to train I'd never want to bring my rack to the gym (I'd find better things to do, but I suppose that's what this conversation is about really).
But since he didn't say anything about the gym in the OP, I'm going to say that actually trad climbing may be better than sport climbing with trad gear. Merely climbing with weight does little help with those moments when you need to hold on to find that piece that goes in that slot, etc. (let's face it, clipping a bolt is nothing compared to slotting a tricky nut).
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jammer
Apr 8, 2011, 4:41 PM
Post #56 of 56
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jammer wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jammer wrote: AamClimber wrote: I've been wondering for a while if wearing ankle weights while rock climbing is helpful in improving your climb or is it just more trouble than its worth. =) Thanks. If you have the gear, climb sport with a full trad rack. This will help you when you climb trad as much as it will help you with technique, learning how to maneuver all that gear out of your way while going from one move to the next. why not just go trad climbing then? Because the OP is asking about the gym and weights. One would think if they own trad gear, the trad climb, unless they just like to play with shiny new toys. sorry, I didn't get that he was asking specifically about climbing in the gym in other parts of the thread. In that case, sure, it isn't a bad idea per se, though even to train I'd never want to bring my rack to the gym (I'd find better things to do, but I suppose that's what this conversation is about really).
In reply to: But since he didn't say anything about the gym in the OP, I'm going to say that actually trad climbing may be better than sport climbing with trad gear. Merely climbing with weight does little help with those moments when you need to hold on to find that piece that goes in that slot, etc. (let's face it, clipping a bolt is nothing compared to slotting a tricky nut).
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