What does this have to do with anything, other than some needless chest puffing? Josh grades are about average. The vast majority of accident reports that I have seen at Josh have been associated with climbers that lived in the general SoCo area.

"As a public service announcement I will say to those of you who are either new to climbing, or new to Josh, don't underestimate the ratings out here, or anywhere for that matter. You may be a 5.11 climber at your home crag, but don't bet on it here."

What does this have to do with anything, other than some needless chest puffing? Josh grades are about average. The vast majority of accident reports that I have seen at Josh have been associated with climbers that lived in the general SoCo area.

I also find this kind of funny, He says that there was a rappelling accident then goes on to talk about not getting in over your head with ratings. I guess they may have been trying to rap from somewhere midway up the route they were bailing off of or something, but since he hasn't provided any info on the accident it is all just speculation.

Personally (and I've climbed all over the western US) I find the grades at J-tree to be on par with most other traditional climbing areas, but it is true that the descents can be a bit tricky sometimes.

Josh grades are about average.

The vast majority of accident reports that I have seen at Josh have been associated with climbers that lived in the general SoCo area.

....Josh descents can be very challenging and in some case dangerous if your down climbing skills are not solid or non-existent....

I will say one other thing, you sound like competent trad climber. What you fail to realize is this is being flooded with new trad leaders or pure sport climbers breaking into trad. They come into Nomad in droves.

I'm off to work, hopefully I'll more info this afternoon.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I agree that there are tons of new trad leaders or pure sport climbers breaking into trad at J-tree. Of course these people will feel that the grades are sandbagged, especially if they get on a pure crack route (double cross) or a slab route. I think that it is very important that people don't get in over their heads, I just didn't (still don't) understand how that was related to this particular accident.

I'm sorry to hear about this accident and feel terrible for all who were involved or knew the climber. I look forward to getting more details so that I can hopefully learn something from this accident.

I'd tend to agree here, but I did learn to climb at JTree, so I'm used to the style of climbing. I'm sure routes at the Gunks or Seneca are similarly graded (old school trad) but take a 5.10 Gunks or Seneca climber, throw them on a 5.10 JTree slab, and watch the ensuing disaster.

that is a difference in style not in grades. I'd much rather walk up to a 5.__ roof than a similar slab multiple grades below that because that is what i'm used to. Can watch the opposite happen at RRG or the Gunks.. super confident slab climbers who don't have the power or endurance for steep stuff.

Precisely my point, I just failed to state it clearly.

I spoke to this guy. He was sweet. However, when I asked what he was able to lead, he was unsure, when I asked when he lasted lead he didn't know. When I asked where he usually climbing he didn't answer. When I asked about what gear he had, he didn't have any with him either, trad or sport or a rope. Unless maybe he did use someone else's.
I told him I wasn't available during the week, he said he was going to go to j.tree or red rocks and wasn't sure. That he would call me. I didn't feel confident that he had skills for outside climbing based on my conversation with him. I opted out.
He said he was going to "wing it" and look for a partner. I told him just to get a boulder pad and enjoy that.
However he said he wanted to climb routes. He was very sweet on the phone. He was anxious to climb, anywhere, right away.
I wasn't sure how this could be managed . He said he would get a group together. However wasn't sure how?
I just felt unsure of any of his skills, belaying, and how long it was since he climbed. I told him there were some top ropes at jtree.
He was confident he would find someone wherever he went.
I'm am truly sorry about his accident. I did not know him. Though he sounded nice on the phone. Truthfully he could have used a guide. or an experienced mentor.
Sympathy to his family and friends. I am very sorry for this accident. He sounded like a nice guy.

Based on my own personal record keeping ,in 2009 some 16 climbers with numerous climbing experiences died from rappelling alone and if I have to back track 10 year records, rappelling fatalities were always the number one on the list next to avalanche related incident.Based on what I have seen, almost 90% of the accident was preventable as simple as adding a safety knot or double checking the rap anchor before rappelling.

Here is a reliable source that goes back to 1951...

http://www.americanalpineclub.org/...f/anam/anam_2007.pdf

Here is a reliable source that goes back to 1951...

http://www.americanalpineclub.org/documents/pdf/anam/anam_2007.pdf

Are you claiming you talked to David Pinegar, the man who died in Joshua Tree? From the supertopo link it seems he was an experienced climber, so your understanding of his needs seem to be completely wrong. The news article said he was on a motorcycle trip, so maybe he just didn't bring his own gear.

Even the AAC record is not up to date and accurate cause not all reports make to their system. That I know for sure .

Given that that may be true, are you suggesting that rappelling accidents alone are misrepresented?

Edit to add: http://hidesertstar.com/...1c9b1e9710550270.txt

...However, when I asked what he was able to lead, he was unsure, when I asked when he lasted lead he didn't know. When I asked where he usually climbing he didn't answer. When I asked about what gear he had, he didn't have any with him either, trad or sport or a rope. Unless maybe he did use someone else's.

...I didn't feel confident that he had skills for outside climbing based on my conversation with him. I opted out.

...I just felt unsure of any of his skills, belaying, and how long it was since he climbed. I told him there were some top ropes at jtree.

Even the AAC record is not up to date and accurate cause not all reports make to their system. That I know for sure .

Sorry if I come off grouchy, I am just really, really tired and had a very long day.

This is the truth. In order to have incidents in ANAM published you have submit your reports. Many, many incidents do not get sent to ANAM for a large number of reasons. This parks has not been actively submitting reports for quite a while. I'll check to see if that has changed any, but my point is you cannot use ANAM submissions as an accurate metric for incident analysis statistics in this park.

As far as to why I brought up things like ratings, this is due to the fact that there a lot of people who never post, but read the site regularly and have little clue about what they are getting themselves into. Excuse me if I offended and confused a handful of experts who climb here a month at best a season.

I've lived and climbed here for a long time. I've watched the climbing demographic radically change in the last ten years.

Sorry if I come off grouchy, I am just really, really tired and had a very long day.

This is the truth. In order to have incidents in ANAM published you have submit your reports. Many, many incidents do not get sent to ANAM for a large number of reasons. This parks has not been actively submitting reports for quite a while. I'll check to see if that has changed any, but my point is you cannot use ANAM submissions as an accurate metric for incident analysis statistics in this park.

As far as to why I brought up things like ratings, this is due to the fact that there a lot of people who never post, but read the site regularly and have little clue about what they are getting themselves into. Excuse me if I offended and confused a handful of experts who climb here a month at best a season.

I've lived and climbed here for a long time. I've watched the climbing demographic radically change in the last ten years.

JOSHUA TREE NATIONAL PARK, Calif. — Authorities say a rock climber was killed at Joshua Tree National Park when his rope snapped and he fell 150 feet.

http://www.dailyjournal.net/...3/CA--Climber-Death/

I think we should all wait to read an accurate report on this before trying to derive lessons from it. When the only report indicates he was rock climbing, while hiking, on rappel, when his rope snapped shows we still have no idea what happened. For now, the only comments I would hope to see is RIP and the such, not a pissing match over the percent of rapping accidents or the change in demographics at J-Tree.

Condolences to those that knew him, sounds like he was good dude with a lot of promise. RIP...

I think we should all wait to read an accurate report on this before trying to derive lessons from it. When the only report indicates he was rock climbing, while hiking, on rappel, when his rope snapped shows we still have no idea what happened. For now, the only comments I would hope to see is RIP and the such, not a pissing match over the percent of rapping accidents or the change in demographics at J-Tree.

Condolences to those that knew him, sounds like he was good dude with a lot of promise. RIP...

Joe Zarki is a nice man, but his reports regarding climbing accidents in this park are generally not real accurate.

Let's just wait to see what comes from the proper channels.

I think what Robert is trying to say is that if you are not used to climbing in Josh, you need to be ready and start below what you normally climb. I have been extremely humbled everytime I have climbed there. If you are a 5.10+ gym or sport climber don't expect to climb those ratings at Josh, especailly if you don't have any experience with cracks. I have found that getting off a route in Josh is much scarier than the climb. I do not think he was saying or inferred this was a cause of this particular accident. I think he is just trying to let people know that Joshua Tree is not a place to be taken lightly. Flamming him was not appropriate, especially when this thread is about a fatal accident.

To David's friends and family. I am sorry for your loss. He sounds like he was a wonderful man. I hope your life is filled with wonderful memories!

Eric

I agree with you... Were you responding to me? Did I somehow indicate that I thought otherwise?

And all that has been said a million times and could be said a million times more about virtually every trad crag in the US. How is that relevant to what has been described as a rappelling accident? It really just came off as another chest thumping exercise.

Don't confuse roberts warnings as "chest thumping." I think many are attempting to interpret what he is saying through what they perceive as a personality like their own. Robert is a very, very good person, extremely humble and not out to spray (too old/ugly to spray at least).

Having spent just a small amount of time in Joshua Tree I echo his sentiment - it is a very traditional area with many adventurous, fun routes. Yes, many accidents reported are from rapelling errors, but I have witnessed dozens of small accidents, broken bones, and nearly fatal accidents (including my own!) from people who are new leaders or are not familiar with the flaring, difficult-to-protect or runout routes here. This is not to say that this particular incident was because of said issue, but it is one to consider if you are reading RC.com and would like to head out to JT.

If you treat the climbing with proper respect it can afford you a lifetime of fun, but make sure to grant it that much.

I am sorry for the loss of David, and from what I saw from the pictures on Supertopo he was a well respected, experienced climber who was extremely fired up about having positive experiences in our hills. As a member of the tribe, he will be missed, but not forgotton.

Greg Davis

Here's what I know so far. The climber was found on the ground with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight in the middle of the rope. They had one ATC style device between them. They were using a single 70 meter rope.

I have spoken with the head of the SAR team and this is all they know.

Dave had lowered his partner to the next anchor with his belay device. The partner clipped in to the anchor and yelled off rappel. The next thing the partner new was that Dave was flying by him. Again, Dave was found at the bottom with the rope attached to his harness with a figure 8 on a bight tied at the mid point of the rope.

Unfortunately I don't think we are ever going to know exactly what happened with this accident.

I am trying to find out what kind of belay device he was using, if it was a grigri, cinch, or ATC style. Based on that answer, it could provide some clues to better understand what happened.

There are a couple of points here that should be clear, 1) he obviously wasn't clipped into the anchor, and 2) Walk On The Wild Side is usually a double rope rappel with either 50 or 60 meter ropes.

A single 70 meter is pretty short for this task. I've been asking around to see if any of us locals know how far apart the anchors are. I have not been on that route in 10 years or so. We all seem to concur that the 70 meter single rope rap is pushing it.

I'll post up more when I have more.

Edit:

My previous post regarding the ATC may be inaccurate. The details on this are sketchy and I am trying to sort it out.

My apologies.

Do you know where on his harness it was attached? And with what sort of biner (locker or non)?

Speculating here: it may be that he had simply tied the rope off to himself to avoid dropping it while threading the anchor. If that were the case, he wouldn't necessarily have attached it to his belay loop or used a locker, which is more what I would expect if he had been planning to load the knot.

Of course, the knot being connected to the belay loop with a locker wouldn't preclude the explanation above; but a nonlocker or a connection elsewhere on the harness would suggest that he hadn't been planning to weight the knot.

How you get from there to falling is another question, which requires more speculation still. I'll hold off for now.

I was speculating something similar to this and that maybe, not relevant to the rope, per se, he thought he was still connected to the anchor and wasn't. In other words, it is possible the rope is a bit of a red herring?

I know, speculation is bad. My apologies if it way off base.

Sincerest apologies to his family and friends.

I wasn't sure if I should make that post. But, I figured it was better to include the speculation, which helps to explain why I asked what I asked, than to just ask a couple of random questions.

And I'm very sorry to David's family, friends, and partner about his death.

Sorry if I come off grouchy, I am just really, really tired and had a very long day.

This is the truth. In order to have incidents in ANAM published you have submit your reports. Many, many incidents do not get sent to ANAM for a large number of reasons. This parks has not been actively submitting reports for quite a while. I'll check to see if that has changed any, but my point is you cannot use ANAM submissions as an accurate metric for incident analysis statistics in this park.

As far as to why I brought up things like ratings, this is due to the fact that there a lot of people who never post, but read the site regularly and have little clue about what they are getting themselves into. Excuse me if I offended and confused a handful of experts who climb here a month at best a season.

I've lived and climbed here for a long time. I've watched the climbing demographic radically change in the last ten years.

A single 70 meter is pretty short for this task. I've been asking around to see if any of us locals know how far apart the anchors are. I have not been on that route in 10 years or so. We all seem to concur that the 70 meter single rope rap is pushing it.

This is a bit of a recap.

I spoke with the Park Service. David was using an ATC style device. He did indeed lower his partner to the next set of rap anchors. The partner connected himself to the station and yelled off rappel. The next thing he knew, David was flying by him.

So this is what we know:

1) They only had one belay device between them

2) David obviously was not clipped into the anchor

3) It seems likely that David found the middle of the rope, tied the eight, and clipped it to his harness so he didn't loose the rope while he set up the rap

I can only hazard a guess that he just slipped.

That's about all I can tell you.

So if David didn't have an atc device since his partner just rappeled to the ground.
Why didn't his partner know that?

I mean how was David planning on getting down.

Was his partner going to lower him , or send him the atc device, or did he have a grigri?

Can you find out if two strand of rope was hanging along the wall before he fell and if the ATC was on his belay loop ?

Please see the above bolded text.

Why don't you post a copy of the actual report that was done by SAR. It seems like there would be more pertinent information to the incident. Where is the official report of the fatality? Please post that. Thanks