Mar 5, 2013, 9:14 PM
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Is Rock Climbing Vandalism?
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Rocks for example, can be covered in a multitude of life, including moss, trees, and animals...do you consider the acquisitioning of rock for the new use being defined as "rockclimbing" a form of vandalism?
There are very few climbers who would intentionally deface the rocks, but you don't have to be blasting a feature off to create a route at Smith Rock to leave a trace. Our very presence has unavoidable impacts like the invasive species seeds we all track in, and the erosion from the foot traffic.
The best known places will continue to be overused so do your part for the climbing world and find some new spots, put up some FFAs and spread the traffic out while demonstrating good ethics.
This is Arrow in the Gunks. Note the aggressively cleaned (with wire brush) stripe of the climb; kept clean of lichen by generations of climbers ever since. The two protection bolts were put in on rappel by the FA party in the 60's.
Rocks for example, can be covered in a multitude of life, including moss, trees, and animals...do you consider the acquisitioning of rock for the new use being defined as "rockclimbing" a form of vandalism?
No. I wish I could say the same for what you've done to the English language.
Rocks for example, can be covered in a multitude of life, including moss, trees, and animals...do you consider the acquisitioning of rock for the new use being defined as "rockclimbing" a form of vandalism?
No. I wish I could say the same for what you've done to the English language.
Jay
I think this is the sixth post in a row in which you have referenced grammar. You should start an English sticky. You could explain compound infinitive splits, doctoral APA formatting, enjambment, non-sequitur statements and parallelism; you know, all the basic stuff.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 6, 2013, 9:18 AM)
well...technically... aren't they? do you think we have reached a population where our individual efforts need to be increased? or is there still space?
well...technically... aren't they? do you think we have reached a population where our individual efforts need to be increased? or is there still space?
Do your part for humanity and end yourself so we don't get posts like this again
well...technically... aren't they? do you think we have reached a population where our individual efforts need to be increased? or is there still space?
Your individual effort to convert O2 into CO2 is vandalism. Please stop.
Footprints ... vandalism on the ground ? How about the bulldozing to make roads to get to crags or the bulldozing to make cities to live in ? Alternatively, you could check the definition "malicious destruction or damage of property" ... no property is damaged in climbing.
well...technically... aren't they? do you think we have reached a population where our individual efforts need to be increased? or is there still space?
Your individual effort to convert O2 into CO2 is vandalism. Please stop.
Not to mention the waste of electrons and bandwidth.
As with everything, the issue is not simply black or white. In many places, even on the most aggressively cleaned route will moss and lichen grow back in just a few years. Cleaning choss and dropping loose blocks is also just speeding up what nature would do anyway. I would go so far as saying well done chipping is no worse than creating pin scars (note that I mean this simply from this topic's point of view, I strongly agree chipping is cheating).
However, there are also lots of walls that are clean by nature, and/or get very little rainfall. If they also are beatiful in themselves and visible from afar, climbing routes can stand out like non-healed wounds in the rock. This is especially true on bolted limestone slabs. You can from a mile away see how the rope and especially the draws have shaved away the patina of the rock, and ugly white patches snake their way up the wall. Also on overhanging walls, permadraws together with lots of chalk is not the most estetic sight.
Not put it in perspective, there are maybe 2 or 3 crags out of maybe 100 I've been to where I thought that it actually might have been better to leave the rock alone.
As with everything, the issue is not simply black or white. In many places, even on the most aggressively cleaned route will moss and lichen grow back in just a few years. Cleaning choss and dropping loose blocks is also just speeding up what nature would do anyway. I would go so far as saying well done chipping is no worse than creating pin scars (note that I mean this simply from this topic's point of view, I strongly agree chipping is cheating).
However, there are also lots of walls that are clean by nature, and/or get very little rainfall. If they also are beatiful in themselves and visible from afar, climbing routes can stand out like non-healed wounds in the rock. This is especially true on bolted limestone slabs. You can from a mile away see how the rope and especially the draws have shaved away the patina of the rock, and ugly white patches snake their way up the wall. Also on overhanging walls, permadraws together with lots of chalk is not the most estetic sight.
Not put it in perspective, there are maybe 2 or 3 crags out of maybe 100 I've been to where I thought that it actually might have been better to leave the rock alone.
Agreed. I think the answer is that it may be vandalism in some cases more than others, but in the majority of cases it is not harmful vandalism. Also line btn vandalism and impact from normal use is oh so fine and/or in the eye of the beholder.
I voted no because I don't think "Vandalism" is the right word.
Does it have an adverse effect on the environment and the aesthetics of a climbing area? Well, the environment; definitely. The aesthetics of an area; I guess that's debatable, but I would tend to say yes.
There are a handful of organisms that are bound to rock/cliffs for their existence. Nesting Peregrine Falcons and Golden Eagles come to mind, as well as some species of plants. Those birds will only nest on cliffs 95% of the time.
Many people that enjoy nature would also attest to the eyesore of chalk covering a rock at a popular crag or a cliff that is grid bolted.
Not to mention people crapping and pissing all over the place and the host of problems that creates (both with the environment and the aesthetics).
That being said, I'm obviously a climber and contribute to these negative impacts at the crags. And I don't intend to stop anytime soon. I think the important thing is to mitigate these impacts as much as possible. Respect raptor closures, bury your shit and pick up your trash, and probably refrain from grid bolting, or maybe even climbing altogether, on every little choss pile.
This planet is the most amazing place in the universe (as far as we know) and i think its our responsibility to keep it that way.
well...technically... aren't they? do you think we have reached a population where our individual efforts need to be increased? or is there still space?
Your individual effort to convert O2 into CO2 is vandalism. Please stop.
Not to mention the waste of electrons and bandwidth.
Rocks for example, can be covered in a multitude of life, including moss, trees, and animals...do you consider the acquisitioning of rock for the new use being defined as "rockclimbing" a form of vandalism?
No. I wish I could say the same for what you've done to the English language.
Jay
I think this is the sixth post in a row in which you have referenced grammar. You should start an English sticky. You could explain compound infinitive splits, doctoral APA formatting, enjambment, non-sequitur statements and parallelism; you know, all the basic stuff.
I have often climbed at Sandrock (AL), weekend home to what seems to be millions of drunken rednecks. Climbers, including myself, have put in many hours picking up beer bottles and condoms, removing spray paint (where possible), etc.
Most of the routes are for gear, and the top anchors are mostly not visible. If there were no climbers there, it would be a public sewer.
I'm proud to be part of a community that cares about leaving no trace, even if we cannot always do so.
... Sandrock (AL)....... If there were no climbers there, it would be a public sewer.
Not true.
I remember climbing at Sandrock before it was a climbing "destination", before there was a single bolt. It looked quite a bit different then than it does now. There is absolutely no doubt that it looked better then than it does now.
Probably most people nowadays think the eroded trails between the rocks has always looked like that. That's not so. Many of those areas had good soil and plants growing where now there are none (and the soil has completely washed away from some). That change was clearly due to climbers.
It is true that the place had some graffiti and trash before it became popular with climbers, and it is true that climbers have taken some steps to improve some aspects of the place, but on the whole there is no escaping the harsh reality that the place would have been better off without climbers. But I would not define those climber impacts as vandalism.
In reply to:
...the top anchors are mostly not visible.
??? There are bolts everywhere. There are chains. There are rust stains running down the rock from said chains. Again, not vandalism, but a visual impact for sure.
In reply to:
..I'm proud to be part of a community that cares about leaving no trace, even if we cannot always do so.
I think on the whole we can do better in that regard, and hopefully we will.
as our population grows, many steps have been taken, and still more need to be taken, to create a hyper efficient realm where the ecosystems can continue to thrive whilst man still exists. and some of these steps are irrigation and electrical grids.
as our population grows, many steps have been taken, and still more need to be taken, to create a hyper efficient realm where the ecosystems can continue to thrive whilst man still exists. and some of these steps are irrigation and electrical grids.
I think any reasonable future "hyper efficient realm" would necessarily exclude rock climbing. It's not the most efficient way to get to the top of the hill. In fact, it is often the most difficult; that's what makes it fun.
Rocks for example, can be covered in a multitude of life, including moss, trees, and animals...do you consider the acquisitioning of rock for the new use being defined as "rockclimbing" a form of vandalism?
So, when a house gets built, rocks, moss, trees and animals are disturbed...acquisition of land for a new use. Yet my response is somehow, "off topic"?
Likewise, when I shit, or drive a car, or purchase potable water from my local water authority, moss and trees are disturbed. Is this vandalism? I think the question is very much on topic.
this post was nothing but a troll, to out all the assholes in the climbing community, and to point out how extreme and immature this group of "lostboys" really is. there are alot of good rockclimbers. but there are more lost boys.
this post was nothing but a troll, to out all the assholes in the climbing community, and to point out how extreme and immature this group of "lostboys" really is. there are alot of good rockclimbers. but there are more lost boys.
Well played.
You resort to namecalling, a common fallback for those who have no real argument.
You consider me as having "hostility", yet you show up on a rockclimbing forum asking if rockclimbing is vandalism. Psychologists might consider that "projection".
Try contributing something useful, rather than wasting time. You might actually find some fulfillment.
this post was nothing but a troll, to out all the assholes in the climbing community, and to point out how extreme and immature this group of "lostboys" really is. there are alot of good rockclimbers. but there are more lost boys.
If I was a mod, this "poll" would go to the campground.
....have put in many hours picking up....condoms....
ewwwwwwwww!
Whenever we would do campground or park clean ups as kids, I never knew what my dad meant when he said 'Watch out! A raincoat!' and swoop in and pick up the unseen.
I know what that means now, icky. My dad was a champ.
this post was nothing but a troll, to out all the assholes in the climbing community, and to point out how extreme and immature this group of "lostboys" really is. there are alot of good rockclimbers. but there are more lost boys.
Well you certainly succeeded in outing 1 immature asshole.
Wait, I take that back. You used a Peter Pan reference. You don't make the asshole rank, you're just a dingleberry.
I must believe that anyone critical if climbers at sandrock never saw it before climbers organized the cleanup weekends. Once I saw a pickup arrive and a local family of five got out with a picnic basket. As they started into the woods their little boy yelled "Wait Daddy. You forgot the spray paint!"
Yesterday at Haycock Mtn (PA), some lady hiking asked to use some of our chalk. we asked why. she responded "to cover up some graffiti". We said, "yeah, those swastikas all over the boulders on the trail are pretty offensive, but this chalk will wash away". She says, " i didn't mean those, i meant the anti-god graffiti", referring to "I (heart) Satan".
That reminds me, next time i'm up there, i need to bring a can of spray paint to cover up the swastikas, and to put exclaimation marks at the end of "I (heart) satan.
Apparently the lady is cool wtih genocide and her local neo-nazi faction. POS hick. and yes, i am one of the chosen people, so F her even more.
You did say, "Lady"? Don't these people realize that the Nazis also killed Christians...and performed abortions in their "research"? It is easier to fix ugly than ignorant.
....That reminds me, next time i'm up there, i need to bring a can of spray paint to cover up the swastikas, and to put exclaimation marks at the end of "I (heart) satan....
Rocks for example, can be covered in a multitude of life, including moss, trees, and animals...do you consider the acquisitioning of rock for the new use being defined as "rockclimbing" a form of vandalism?
The impression I get is that you should consider the actions of any living species to be an act of vandalism. What's the point?
This is Arrow in the Gunks. Note the aggressively cleaned (with wire brush) stripe of the climb; kept clean of lichen by generations of climbers ever since. The two protection bolts were put in on rappel by the FA party in the 60's.
I don't believe so! No more than as others say about walking on the sidewalk, walking on a hiking trail, etc. As long as someone isn't chipping away of the rock, holds, etc. I don't see it as vandalism.
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