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vertical_planar
Jan 28, 2003, 8:55 AM
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I am not long on RC.com but I 've seen this attitude from several people...
The thing is that climbing, mountaineering, canoeying, hiking and all these outdoors "-ings" are becoming increasingly popular and anavoidably idiots will be in them too. Now, these are activities with inherent danger. Some people, might fail to realise that because they are "idiots".
Even then though, I am not the guy how would ever say. "Why care? He deserved that, he was an idiot" or "he was a madman, I dont feel sorry about him"
I wonder how many of you share this opinion...
It migt seem a bit retorical, but I ve seen it, around...
Actually it would make an interesting poll...
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funktimonious
Jan 28, 2003, 9:02 AM
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You wrote a lot for not saying anything.
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josephine
Jan 28, 2003, 9:19 AM
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Can you please explain what you mean with what you wrote above?You said many things but i didn't get your point!
Penny
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vertical_planar
Jan 28, 2003, 9:52 AM
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my point is that you cant say for someone "that he deserved to die because he did stupid things while climbing"
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redpoint73
Jan 28, 2003, 11:36 AM
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I still don't think anyone has any idea what you are talking about.
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vertical_planar
Jan 28, 2003, 12:24 PM
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ok i quit
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mattiem
Jan 28, 2003, 12:33 PM
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I got what he meant, he was saying that in a lot of posts when someone new says something dumb, or when an accident report is posted about someone dying, there are a lot of posters who say stuff like,"He deserved to die he was dumb" and "I don't feel bad he was dumb and didnt know what he was doing" He was saying he doesn not share this sentiment bu that it is the attitude of many on RC.com. I think he was interested in why people felt this was and how many people felt this way.
hope that helps
matt
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duracellbunny
Jan 28, 2003, 12:40 PM
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Nobody deserves to die......
What you have said it is really sad
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danl
Jan 28, 2003, 12:42 PM
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I think your statment falls under two catagories and both are worth examining.
The first is of the proud amateur. In many cases people undertake a sport like rock climbing without proper instruction and get themselves into trouble. Often times this is regarded as stupidity, often it is simply one being naieve or ignorant. In the past people forging new directions unprepared were called pioneers.
The other class is at the opposite end of the spectrum the well honed extremist. For example, the person that goes out and solos the eiger. I think that many people say "x deserved it" because they do not understand the motivations of said person. Those who condem these actions don't seem to understand the ROI involved because they hold certain values too close.
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mustclimb69
Jan 28, 2003, 1:07 PM
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I think I get it!!
Nobody deserves to die. What frusterates me and many other climbers is when lack of attention to detail and being careless leads to injury or a close call. we all make mistakes. Where calling people idiots comes in is when the "idiots" laugh or brag about their close call.
Am i close?.?
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nadroj
Jan 28, 2003, 1:20 PM
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I agree that know body deserves to die.
I think the reason that there are so many posts saying thing like “he was stupid he deserved it” is that it distances us from the death. Every time we go “on rope” we are taking risks, it is much easier to say “he was being stupid and made a mistake” than to say “what if that was me? I almost made a mistake like that last time I climbed”.
Watching some die is not a pleasant experience but it is easier to deal with if you distance yourself in such a way.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Any shrinks out there want to give there opinion?
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koko
Jan 28, 2003, 2:21 PM
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well, I'm not a shrink, but... Climbing, or any sport for that matter, can be done very safely while still pushing the extremes (i.e. 5.14). one can still be motivated in whatever way to do crazy things. BUT IT CAN BE SAFE. therefore, i am one of those people who say, "what a dumbass", because there is tons of good gear out there to protect yourself with and there is no need to go courting with death. i could go on but i think i've said enough...
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hoppinbig
Jan 28, 2003, 2:22 PM
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How do people die canoeing? When did this become an 'extreme' sport?
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flynnypek
Jan 28, 2003, 2:39 PM
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Nobody deserves to die because he did a mistake... that's sad
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sportster
Jan 28, 2003, 2:41 PM
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Ok I consider myself an amateur, however I am a freak about safety. I check and double check everyone in my group when we go climbing, I even check the people that taught me how to climb. However, even though I see other people do some pretty dumb and unsafe things, I dont walk by an say how dumb they are, rather I will get their attention and let them know what they are doing wrong, even if they get pissed at me. Most people realize their mistake and are thankful. Nobody deserves to die, and if any of you ever see me doing something unsafe, I want you to scream at me and let me know the right way to do things. After all Im still an amateur and we all make mistakes.
Anyways, that was my two cents.
Eric
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texasclimbers
Jan 28, 2003, 2:44 PM
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Quote:How do people die canoeing? When did this become an 'extreme' sport?
did you ever see Deliverance?
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mustclimb69
Jan 28, 2003, 2:48 PM
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Canoeing, you could die of an infected splinter in the hand. I had one that hurt a lot once...but i sucked itup and pulled that bi**h out.
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lemurboy
Jan 28, 2003, 2:51 PM
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One thing that I like to say to those ppl that you run into at the crag that are doing things totally wrong, is
do you know that your anchor is gonna blow if you take any sort of fall on it, you know that tiny tree root isnt really enough.
And then I get the reply well who the hell are you to say this?
and I say well im just the guy who will have to clean up the mess you make when your body crushes against those shape pointy rocks below you.
And by that time they usually get the picture.
or i take off running pretending never to have meet the guy.
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mhr2000
Jan 28, 2003, 3:13 PM
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"Hey y'all watch this"
"Bet you I can"
If death follows either of these statements, they probably had it coming. I don't believe death is ever deserved, but a good bruising may knock some sense in to them.
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hoppinbig
Jan 28, 2003, 3:20 PM
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This one time, at band camp we were all canoeing and this boat came by and almost knocked us all in the water and we almost drowned and stuff....
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gypsy
Jan 28, 2003, 3:54 PM
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I just think it is actually good when an idiot gets hurt doing something stupid...this may prevent him/her from doing it again in the future, or injuring someone else due to stupidity...
Ignorance (thinking they are doing it right, but being new to the sport and haven't quite got it yet),on the other hand, is a forigivable mistake and hopefully accidents due to this are learned from as well...
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danl
Jan 28, 2003, 4:29 PM
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Yes there is lots of good gear out there.. but you must understand there is a great reward from climbing light and fast or soloing and that is something that is very personal and not many people understand and because they don;t understand it they put it down.
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w6jxm
Jan 28, 2003, 4:48 PM
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While that may be true, how many people to you hear that die or get hurt from free soloing. Now compare that to the people who think they know what they are doing and boulder too high, set up a TR wrong, clip in wrong (ie. non locking crab between the rope and harness)fall on the approach, and all the other stupid things. Now experience can lead to complacency where you might no double check something as throughly as you would have when starting, but that is not the same as doing something stupid out of ignorance. It sometimes seems that abundance of gear can lead to lazyness in beginners because they figure if they get enough stuff then they will be safer (learning trad with cams instead of good placement of nuts). While no one deserves to die because in ignorance, it does not mean that it is not inevitable. Although this is something that we just have to accept, we do have an obligation to do our best to educate those who are the most prone to mistakes. Which is all of us.
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gakin
Jan 28, 2003, 5:06 PM
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Although I do not believe that anybody dies from making a mistake, there is a flip side to that coin. This is by nature a dangerous sport, and can kill you, but if the proper safty precautions are taken, it is pretty safe. IMO, the best thing is education. If you are at the crag, or the gym as far as that goes, and you notice that somebody is doing something that can cause an anchor failure, or not tied in correctly, ect, polietly let them know, and go on your way.
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antimatter
Jan 28, 2003, 5:06 PM
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I've become pretty jaded towards the idiots. You hear things like, "Oh yeah, it's not doubled back because I don't do that at the gym" or "Dude, it's your first time climbing and you just free-soloed to set the anchor. Good job." That last one I head from a climber with years of experience who had setup two TR climbs at Feudal wall. BOTH TR's consisted of a 2 foot piece of webbing tied with a water knot to ONE bolt mid-route. The bolts weren't nice Rawl 5 piece either, they were nail-ins probably placed 10-15 years ago. There was no carabiner, just the rope running over the (not even climbspec) webbing. One of his "new" climbing partners was very overweight. It's a miracle they didn't melt through the webbing while lowering. To top that off, he just left the webbing in place when they were done. Nice.
Now, I was mid-route while all this was transpiring, but I did admonish him for tying off the bolt. His response, "Oh, well that's the first time I have ever done that. I never do it." So, he knows it's wrong! This guy has seen the warnings, been advised to seek proper instruction every time he's bought a piece of climbing gear. I mean, what should I do, beat him over the head? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish harm on anyone. HOWEVER, to answer the question, Yes, this idiot does deserve to die. He's been warned time and time again. He's ignored the warnings, tell me why, please God, tell me why he does not deserve to die.
[ This Message was edited by: antimatter on 2003-01-28 09:09 ]
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dingus
Jan 28, 2003, 5:09 PM
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When I was a teenager, me and Darrel Edmisson (the infamous Dr. Schitt) would auto race on country roads on moon lit nights... with our lights off, 80, 90 a hundred miles an hour. Pure teenaged idiocy. Did we "deserve" to die for this?
People do stupid things every day, even crusty old "safe" climbers... illegal lane changes, running a yellow/red light, drinking and driving, mixing prescription drugs with alcohol, the list goes on and on and on. Do we deserve to die for these things?
My oldest daughter has begun climbing. Now while she perhaps will not suffer the same level idiocy as a young man, doubtlessly she will do a stupid thing or two as she progresses into the sport, should she continue.
You may see her one day, at a crag near you, doing something stupid. Now being a teenager, she is not receptive to criticism in any form. But she will tune out smart-assed, snide, know-it-all commands as fast as she can press her internal squelch button. A polite, "the thing you are doing might be a little unsafe. Think about it, what happens if...", that sort of thing, may penetrate her defenses and get her to think and react.
I'm not asking you to by my kid's surrogate parent. I AM asking you to ask of yourself... hehe, "What if...?" As in, what if that were MY kid? Would I want some snide SOB to stand aside ready to hand out his Darwin Award when she craters? Or would I ask that as a responsible climber and a member of the human race, to at least try to avert diaster should he inadvertantly see the potential for it?
How would you feel if you saw some teenagers horsing around at a cliff, doing something incredibly stupid, you said nothing, and read in the paper the next day they were all dead? Seriously... how would you feel about that?
You are not an island. Just because someone does something stupid, doesn't mean they are unworthy of life. And who are you to judge anyway?
That could be YOUR KID!
Think about it...
DMT
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antimatter
Jan 28, 2003, 5:14 PM
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Of course it's common courtesy to let someone know they are about to leave the gene pool. C'mon, really now.
However, the question doesn't ask, "They should have known better, I'm not gonna tell 'em, they can just die because they deserve it." As I read it, it's more along the lines of, "If I shoot 8x the lethal dose of smack, do I deserve to die?" Well, your damned right I do. The same goes for climbing, if you've been told time and time again, see written warnings and STILL chosen to ignore all that, then YES, YOU DESERVE TO DIE. That someone saves your ass a few times is nice but BUDDY, YOU'VE GOT IT COMING.
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ktwo
Jan 28, 2003, 5:22 PM
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hey you.. shut the hell up.
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gakin
Jan 28, 2003, 5:24 PM
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Alright, reading the last couple of post, I would have to say that I agree. Somebody that blatently does something stupid has it coming. They know they are doing something wrong, and just trying to take a short cut, hey, it's called "Darwin's Law" Natural Selection.
I guess that the way I see it is in a division of somebody who has been taught the correct way, versus somebody who hasn't. But ignorance is no excuse.
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sportster
Jan 28, 2003, 5:29 PM
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I think dingus is right on with what he said, everyone should take the time to read that.
Climb on
Eric
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sportster
Jan 28, 2003, 5:32 PM
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I think dingus is right on with what he said, everyone should take the time to read that.
Climb on
Eric
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watersprite
Jan 28, 2003, 6:09 PM
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re "how do people die canoeing. Is this an extreme sport?"
white water rafting/kayaking is very dangerous and there are so many ways to get hurt. Your shoulders are vulnerable to injury from high blocks, low blocks, and you can "boof" which is like belly flopping, and compressess ALL the vertebrae on your spine.
Have you ever heard of people being caught in a canyon in a flashflood? that's the power of water - you end up naked, cut from head to toe.
rapids are dangerous -
there are submerged trees, undertoes, wicked whirlpools under overhangs that can trap you and suck you down.
so - yeah canoeing/kayaking is as alpha a sport as climbing.
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reborne
Jan 28, 2003, 6:17 PM
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its all greek to me
just thought i would mention that what he siad initialy made perfect sense if you forgave english as a second language you intolerint non bilingual american stuges
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vertical_planar
Jan 28, 2003, 10:28 PM
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thanks reborne...I have a hard time thinking greek and writing english...
I ll give it another try, in relation to what said so far.
The question is why people are rushing to exclaim their indiference or even pleasure for another climbers death.
And why people deny the existance of dangers inherent to climbing.
The possibility of death exists even in a easy bolted route and even if you don't make a mistake.
Like in every life situation the more stochastic parameters you introduce in a phenomenon the more unpredictable the results become. For that reason Climbing is dangerous related to other sports or leisure activites
As far for canoeing...I just used the greek term for kayaking...
Anyway irony is a greek word...
[ This Message was edited by: vertical_planar on 2003-01-28 14:29 ]
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marcsv
Jan 29, 2003, 7:43 AM
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i'm sure you got a good point, you might want to paraphrase your msg because isimply don't get it.
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dlintz
Jan 29, 2003, 8:00 AM
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I think what the original poster meant was that he won't be nominating anyone for the Darwin awards.
So, should I consider the consequences before my friends and I start up our next game of EXTREME dodgeball?
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blazesod
Jan 29, 2003, 10:49 AM
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I read this thread and a few thoughts came to mind? Read them if you have nothing better to do... which is obviously you.
1) "Ignorance is no excuse"
Learning from mistakes has given us our current safety techniques. Maybe the "uneducated barbarians" will learn a better way and prove us all wrong. If they do or not we should not say our preferred method of climbing is the "right way" less we expose our own ingnorance.
2) "No one deserves to die"
Humans constantly talk themselves into believing we know who or what should live and die. We do not.
3) "How do people die cannoing? When did this become an extreme sport?"
People die every day walking to the grocery store. Just because you may die doing something doesn't mean it is extreme. Hundreds(thouseands?) of people die driving the Interstates each year. Would you consider driving to school or work an "extreme sport?"
4) Natural selection occurs for a reason. For humans it helps keep our population explosion from consuming the rest of the planet.
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redpoint73
Jan 29, 2003, 12:44 PM
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Sometimes, people DO die because they are idiots. I remember a story in Accidents in North American Mountaineering where a person was injured rapelling because he decided to sew his own harness from webbing and fishing line.
But more often, it is a culmination of events that gets an experienced climber killed. You get a late start, you get off route, the next thing you know you are epic-ing in complete darkness. Or it can be an act of god, such as rockfall or a sudden storm. Certainly, some things can be planned for: bringing a headlamp, not climbing below other parties, retreating when your judgement tells you.
But any of us that have been climbing for a long time have been there at one time or other. And have survived but by the grace of God, or luck, or probability, whichever you believe in. We like to brush off accident reports by saying "they were idiots" becuase it comforts us. It implies that "I will not die like that because I am not an idiot". But in reality, we should learn valuable lessons from every accident report we hear/read. Well, maybe not the fihsing line-harness one! . . .
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talons05
Jan 29, 2003, 1:49 PM
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"How can you die canoing?" Well, maybe to the rest of you, negotiating a class III/IV river at floodstage is no biggie, but to some of us, things like "strainers" or "snags" and sharp rocks can become a problem when 6 foot waves are pounding you into them... Kayaking isn't the only way to get downstream...
A.W.
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flynnypek
Jan 29, 2003, 2:23 PM
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Yo no quiero morir!
Regardless if it is caoneing, sailing, hopping or rockclimbing.
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lemurboy
Jan 29, 2003, 2:46 PM
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If death comes from one of these Idiots, do you think its just an accident, or is it natural selection???
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blazesod
Jan 29, 2003, 2:58 PM
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^^^^^
They are the same thing.
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bakedjake
Jan 29, 2003, 3:24 PM
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Stoopidity!!!!!!!! My brother and I were doing a fly fishing trip on the delaware this last fall and man did we see some stoopidity, not once, not twice but maybe enough to keep us busy for 25% of our trip. Soft water with nary a sign of rapids, correction "NO Rapids" and canoes were still tipping at a astronomical rate. We spent at least and hour giving paddling instructions to a number of canoeists who could not get past the smallest of hurdles. It was hilarious but it was sad because the young children who were in the boat with them were in mortal danger of drowning or potentially experiencing hypothermia in the cool autumn weather.
The Moral of my story: Stoopidity or just simple ignorance jeapordizes beyond the self and can inflict injury on others. And for those who say "oh! I was alone!!" , what about the risk to the rescue workers who often have to place themselve in dangerous situations to save your dumb a#@!
Learn the rules of the road or risk having nosey people such as myself uninvitingly pontificate their advice. I'm new to climbing and if I had someone notice my mistake I'd say "hey thanks!.
"The distinguishing mark of true adventures, is that it is often no fun at all while they are actually happening." - Kim Stanley Robinson
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ebrmusic
Jan 29, 2003, 3:49 PM
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No one deserves to die, but a lot of people deserve to get smart. Last time I was down at Sams Throne, AR two guys come walking down the trail at 8am with gear to climb, and a beer in each hand. Not the safest start to a good day of climbing.
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apolobamba
Jan 29, 2003, 4:05 PM
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I agree no one deserves to die, including me. I have no problem telling people a bit of safety. I am mostly polite. If they ignore, I get away from the scene so I do not have to clean it up. Put me in danger and you will hear it.
Some Jackholes in a red Xterra almost killed my girlfriend, another couple and me because they thought it would be fun to 3rd class the boulder field to the left of the trail in Middle Owens Gorge. They let loose a boulder the size of Miata. Lucky it bounced and broke on the walls above our heads. These people got my full wrath. And still do, A$$#oles.
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wildtrail
Jan 29, 2003, 4:54 PM
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Nothing we can do. It's a "fashion statement" now. To dress like a mountaineer and to wander into the wilderness like Lewis & Clark. It's "the thing to do," now. Yeah, I hate it too, but there isn't anything we can do. People with money buy expensive things just to have expensive things and say they do these "ings" you speak of. Let's face it, our gear is attractive to these losers. It's expensive, colorful, and shiney. Three qualities that attract let Lexus lugging loser into REI to spend a grand. You can always tell the fakies. Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes SUV (let's face it, they AREN'T SUVs). Wardrobe by L.L. Bean and all the hi-tech gadgets (SAT phone, and top-o-da-line GPS--the one for 1,000). You know the type. They prepare for mowing their 4 acre lot like it's a jungle excursion.
You can't do anything about these people. They wouldn't dare spend a night on a wall, they don't take the alpine approach (always the hike up), and they sure as hell wouldn't wipe their rear-ends with leaves, rocks, and sticks to save weight in their packs.
Now you know the reason they actually sell small espresso makers at REI.
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punk
Jan 29, 2003, 5:53 PM
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Even world-class climbers make gumby mistakes and NO ONE IS IMMUNE,
Having say that it is doesn’t mean that they didn’t took upon them self to know thoroughly the medium they are on and how to negotiate it
For newbie’s to the sport…I cant starch it enough and say get the proper training and experience before you hit the big one …and when you there treat it with ample respect after all we dealing with various law of physics which we cannot deify so we have to learn how to coop with them
“Idiots must NOT die” “Idiots must learn how to NOT die” and this is our (the more experienced climbers) obligation to the sport
BTW the title Idiot is too harsh…but then again it could mean me
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climbhigher
Jan 29, 2003, 6:46 PM
Post #48 of 53
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Registered: Dec 6, 2002
Posts: 224
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I think i kind of get it to??? I believe that everyone should be able to do what the hell they want. That's what so great about climbing. If you don't wanna climb safe and learn, fine just don't climb with me. But, also i think everyone should take full responsibility for there own actions and never endanger another persons life. But besides that it's all free game. Go do what the hell you want. Oh another thing is always have full respect for the environment. If you wanna be a bumbly, be a bumbly, who cares. But when you get hurt ,don't blame anybody but yourself!!! Oh, then people say what about all that money that tax payers have to pay to recover the body or rescue somebody. I say leave the body and %@#$ the rescue. It's great when other climbers can help out another climber out, but otherwise, ,rescue yourself. Ok i am rambling on here. Bye, Chris.
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climbhigher
Jan 29, 2003, 6:58 PM
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Registered: Dec 6, 2002
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Opps, I started reading the prevoius posts and maybe i am hitting on another subject all together. Anyways climbing is dangerous and we all make stupid mistakes even while doing simple day to day tasks. Would you call Lynn Hill an idiot for not tying fully into her harness before starting up a climb and then decking 50 + feet. Obvisously she's not an idiot, she just made a stupid mistake. We are all HUMAN at least i think we are??? sometimes i wonder??? Is there a difference between- being an expert and making a amature mistake and being an amature and making a expert mistake??????Which one are you consider being an idiot???
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flying_dutchman
Jan 29, 2003, 7:26 PM
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Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 708
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theres too many peolpe climbing these days, a few darwin award candidates cant be too bad now
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koko
Jan 29, 2003, 7:35 PM
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Registered: Jan 15, 2003
Posts: 139
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hahahaaha
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brendodb
Jan 29, 2003, 7:41 PM
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Registered: Nov 1, 2002
Posts: 82
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idiots dont deserve to die... and they probably aren't idiots most of the time, but then they FU and become idiots.
everyone can be an idiot from time to time, the goal is to not be an idiot at the crag... better to do it at work/school worst that can happen then is you get fired and can climb more...
oh, and wildtrail... the espresso machines aren't just for those posers, they are for all the poor seattlites like myself who can't live w/out pure caffiene, just look at where REI is based...
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antimatter
Jan 30, 2003, 5:41 PM
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Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 140
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A few of you really don't understand the word DESERVE.
It doesn't mean that an action should follow someone's behavior because of your feelings about that behaviour, person and/or morality. It doesn't have anything to do with your sense of humanity or thoughts about appropriate punishment.
To "deserve" something is objective.
de·serve
v. de·served, de·serv·ing, de·serves
v. tr.
To be worthy of; merit. See Synonyms at earn
v. intr.
To be worthy or deserving.
earn
tr.v. earned, earn·ing, earns
To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work: earned money by mowing lawns.
To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action: She earned a reputation as a hard worker.
To yield as return or profit: a savings account that earns interest on deposited funds.
If you do a) then you deserve the result b). Simple.
Examples: If you jump off a cliff, you deserve to fall to your death. If you climb without proper instruction or technique, and screw up, you deserve to die. Incidentally, you also deserve to die if you are properly trained and suffer a freak rockfall. It's part of the deal!
Now, on the other hand, someone who is WRONGLY convicted doesn't deserve punishment. They have not "earned" it. Get it?
Everyone here, I hope, looks out for their fellow man. If you don't, then please start giving a damn. To me, it seems like the only thing to do, maybe not to you? Perhaps that's what the conversation should be about?
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