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kalcario
Jul 9, 2003, 9:25 PM
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5.15a? Light duty. This guy from Malaga is calling 15c for his 250 foot long one pitch route that overhangs the base by 90 feet. Took him 3 years and he supposedly put up a 15a before. The link:
http://desnivel.com/object.php?o=8157
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jono13
Jul 9, 2003, 9:29 PM
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kind of a useless link if you dont speak spanish eh?
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kalcario
Jul 9, 2003, 9:33 PM
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*kind of a useless link if you dont speak spanish eh?*
http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/pages/T1/G0/UP46167/P1/l/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html
not perfect but easier than exercising your brain I guess...
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styndall
Jul 9, 2003, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: Thus until the meeting (after the ceilings other 30 meters come from collapse), even between last surely and the chain, already in a plate section, where there is another complicated step. The falls, "either long, until of 15 meters", and vague of a meter or the more by all the route, to be able to throw of the cord when plating; the line crosses all the ceiling in diagonal, to leave later did above.
HAR
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sticky_fingers
Jul 9, 2003, 9:52 PM
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To quote from the translation:
"I have the made blue legs and the knees in alive meat".
Even after translating, I guess my brain still needs exercising... :P
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xanx
Jul 9, 2003, 10:04 PM
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*cough* *cough* Akira *cough* *cough*
seriously, i dunno about this one... i mean, Realization took Sharma a long, long time to do (and Dave couldn't even do it), and, while there are plenty of people as strong as sharma (fred nicole, rouhling, dave, bernd, klem, the late wolfgang, ect...) to say there is someone THAT much stronger than he, so much so that it is a full 2 grades harder... i dunno.... no one has even confirmed orujo yet, and it seems like no one seriously considers Akira a 9b anymore. And what about Las Ramblas Extension? i haven't heard anything more about that being a possible 9a+.
also, notice how the really strong climbers rarely offer fixed grades on stuff? Klem doesn't come out and say "My new project Emotional Landscapes is an 8c." everyone just assumes "Hmm, it took Klem so long, and he has put up a lot of 9a's and done a bunsh of v14's, so chances are this new thing is either 8b+or 8c..."
i'd like to see some other well-known people try it/repeat it. at least we have Dave's input to verify Realization.
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petsfed
Jul 9, 2003, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: Chilam Balam, an old Aztec town, pre-Columbian times... distant happened to baptize to the line most futurist, and completely natural, of rotpunkt national: 82 meters! for problemón of continuity, skipped with block passages, that the climber Bernabé Andalusian Fernandez chained Friday 4 of July in Villanueva of the Rosary the past (Malaga), after three seasons of tests:. The route is practicable of May to October, in winter it gets wet long ago "and cold".
I have no idea what that means.
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brianthew
Jul 9, 2003, 10:46 PM
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The interesting thing about 5.15 is the fact nobody has repeated it (although sometimes things come close). Grades are established and legitimized by consensus; the more people repeat the more "accurate" the grade is. Problem with 5.15 is that no consensus exists; the five (six?) people that claimed (or are believed to have sent) 5.15a/b/c haven't sent eachother's routes. Such a theoretical grade this 5.15 is, and assigning a/b/c grades seems to me kinda like saying "infinity plus one."
Anyways, I'm gonna go rest after sending the new 5.15d I just set in the gym. :)
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hippie_dreams
Jul 10, 2003, 12:04 AM
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I think it's important to note here that Chris Sharma never actually claimed Realization was a 5.15 - everyone else just kinda looked at it and said, "hmmm, two 14's together, that must be a 15."
Either way, I hope that guy from spain really did send a "5.15c". That would be sick. Wee need crazy people to keep pushing the grade higher and high, altough I'll never be one of those people.
Too bad I can't read spanish, huh.
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akd
Jul 10, 2003, 12:29 AM
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Well, I'll try to do my best in the translation...
The article says that Bernabé Fernández has recently repointed an 82 mts route (like Kalkario said, about 250 feet) and gave it the "proposed" grade of 9b+ (5.15c). It is a route of more than 300 movements, 22 bolts, with two big roofs (the first of 30 mts. and the second, more horizontal, of 20 mts) and it finishes with an "extraplom" (I don't know how you say it in english...).
The climber could finally redpoint it after three years of trying it, but not all year long cos' it's only "available" from may till' october (in winter is very cold and wet).
For proposing this astronomic grade, fernández did compare this route with his former hardest, Orujo (9a+), and he notices that there's a world of difference between the two.
Ufff...
And, in the matter of if it's really that grade or not, Fernández says that it's a proposition and that future climbers will have the last word...Ah, also, it's sayd that it's an ALL NATURAL route.
Wether it's 9b+ or not, we'll know it in the future, but we have to say that this guy (fernández) climbed 8a qheb he was 14, 8c when 17, the first 8c+ of spain is his (Mojave, 1996) (and it was confirmed by Ramonet, the guy that did La Rambla; nevertheless Ramonet sent it in 4 tries...). This info is also in the article.
I'm not spanish, neither have I climbed La Rambla, but people here have been criticizing a route, one that Alex Huber himself says that his "part" ('till the first anchor, rated 8c+) is probably harder than a bunch of "new" 9a's, and he pointed Underground, Kinematrix, etc. (in an interview in desnivel); so maybe, and just maybe, it's also 9a+, who knows, we'll just have to try it one day... :wink:
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akd
Jul 10, 2003, 12:42 AM
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The last part of what I just wrote was just my feelings for what Xanx put, or just from the whole "La rambla" thread that was a couple of months ago.
Because the video showed Ramonet doing it very slowly and kinda easy, people thaught it was much easier than it really is...
Anyway, I heard Steve McClure (a great british sport climber, with 3 9a's done: Mutation, Northern Lights and, I think, the extension of Raindogs) will be travelling soon to Suriana to try to redpoint "la Rambla".
For me, and I think mostly all of us, the best way to know the accuracy in the grading of the hardest routes (the tough guys trying them all)
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kalcario
Jul 10, 2003, 12:46 AM
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*travelling soon to Suriana to try to redpoint "la Rambla". *
Not too soon I hope, it's blazin' hot there till about November...actually he's in Greenland right now I believe
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xanx
Jul 10, 2003, 12:49 AM
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thanks akd
again, consensus is needed. orujo, akira, las ramblas - who knows what grade they are? they need to see some repeats (or even just more attempts) before grades can even be considered. From what i have heard, Graham worked Realization enough that it is pretty much considered to be "the next level" after 9a, or a 9a+. these others are all in the same catagory as a lot of the proposed 8c boulder problems - Emotional Landscapes, Black Eagle SD, Walk Away sit start, that slab in japan, viva la evolution... some of these (black eagle, emotional, viva la evolution) i can easily believe are 8c b/c the ppl who put them up have done other 8c's so they can compare them. New Base Line and Dreamtime have been repeated and confirmed.
but on another note, who really cares what grade they are? does it matter if they are 9a+ or 9a or 9b+?? basically, right now, no one is going to send any of these in a very short period of time - they all go into the same category of "Sick hard multi-month projects for mutants that normal people only gawk at". true, fred nicole flashed a v13, but i bet there are still v13's out that that take him days or weeks to get (look at the video Four from Font - Dave Graham did Big Dragon, v12, in about 3 hours, but Total Eclipse, v12, took him 8 days!). saying "this is a 9b, not a 9a+" is like saying "this warehouse is 12 million square feet, not 11,999,900 square feet".
in my (very uneducated, ignorant, n00b) opinion, as the grades get higher and higher, the differences between grades becomes more and more subjective - it is easier to get a consensus on v7 vs. v6 because the tiny differences between climbers (style, hight, ape index, ect...) don't make as big a difference, but in stuff where you are pushing hte limits, where moving your foot a millimeter over makes a big differences, these tiny differences in climbers can have a drastic effect. Thus, one person says it is really really hard, like 9b+, and another comes along and says it is really hard, but only 9a+. perhaps both climbers are equally strong, both have sent multiple 9a's and know waht a 9a feels like, but have different opinions. it is probably 9a+ for some, 9b for some, 9b+ for others.
now see why grades are pointless? (whose gonna bite?....)
ok enough rambling about grades... i'll go back in my hole now....
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melonhead
Jul 10, 2003, 1:09 AM
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Three years to get 250 ft. of climbing!?! How long did it take Dean Potter to do El Cap and Half Dome.........
Whatever.
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chitlinsconcarne
Jul 10, 2003, 1:58 AM
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A few years ago in Europe there was a guy proposing a similar big grade jump. It was another long roof problem and i can't remember what ever happened with that. I know that at one time people were saying that the FA couldn't repeat the route himself, so maybe the whole thing just faded away?
It took us a fairly good chunk of time to get from 9a to 9a+, but maybe another Wolfgang can come along and change things real quick. You never know.
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xanx
Jul 10, 2003, 2:06 AM
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In reply to: A few years ago in Europe there was a guy proposing a similar big grade jump. It was another long roof problem and i can't remember what ever happened with that. I know that at one time people were saying that the FA couldn't repeat the route himself, so maybe the whole thing just faded away?
that would be Akira, by Fred Roughling (sp?). proposed 9b way before Realization. there was more than one problem, however: i don't think anyone else really tried the route (Yuri might have taken a few rides on it, but i don't think he really worked it). also, i have heard it is artificial - some of the holds are chipped/drilled (or glued?) into the wall, and the whole thing is set for Fred's +7 (sick!) ape index.
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akd
Jul 10, 2003, 2:32 AM
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Dani Andrada has been going to Eaux Calires for some time and repeated some hard stuff (routes and boulders). According to a page about climbing in Charente he also had been working on Akira lately.
Here's a link to that page. Anyway, it says that soon there'll be a report about that (it's from last month). It also says that he managed to do all movements (in the news from may), if my French didn't trick me...
http://www.chez.com/charentescalade/
ps: click on Infos
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junkie
Jul 10, 2003, 3:35 PM
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In reply to: that would be Akira, by Fred Roughling (sp?). proposed 9b way before Realization. there was more than one problem, however: i don't think anyone else really tried the route (Yuri might have taken a few rides on it, but i don't think he really worked it). also, i have heard it is artificial - some of the holds are chipped/drilled (or glued?) into the wall, and the whole thing is set for Fred's +7 (sick!) ape index.
We will try this ONE MORE TIME:
1) Akira is NOT CHIPPED. It has had flakes reinforced with glue to prevent them ripping off.
2) Many have tried. JIBE TRIBOUT tried, and was stymied. He came back from Charentes and openly agreed with Fred Rouhling.
This is an old myth that n00bs insist on bringing back over and over. Check your facts.
Until SOMEONE REPEATS Chilam Balam, Akira, La Rambla Ext., Oruja, L'Autre Cote Du Ciel, or any of the other unrepeated hard climbs, the grade the FA gave the route STICKS.
Until there are valid opinions to counter the FAs claim with, everything else is slander.
I really hope that Chilam Balam IS 15c. That would be cool. I hope some other people (Sharma et.al.) go and try this. Maybe Fernandez is overgrading it. Maybe not. Either way, mad props go out to Fernandez for sending his project!
K out
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liciarothermel
Jul 10, 2003, 4:32 PM
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That's a pretty darn good translation! It's in highly technical-yet-flowery language (often used for long feature stories). The part about blue legs is a direct quotation from Bernabe Fernandez, where he says his legs are black & blue, and his knees skinned to the flesh, so he has been using neoprene kneepads.
My 2-cents' worth. :wink:
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bandycoot
Jul 10, 2003, 5:08 PM
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Climbing is all about pushing personal limits. All our limits are different. Maybe one person can send a 5.15a sloper problem, and another a 5.15a crimp problem but they will never be able to send the other's problem due to genetics. Maybe the 5.15 rating should be reserved for those climbs only climbed by one person, sort of a "B scale" for roped climbing. If it sees two ascents then it is down graded to the .14 status. At some point climbers will be climbing route that ARE unrepeatable due to genetics. Have we reached that point? Possibly. Is it likely? No. Should we always assume that someone is lying about the difficulty of their route? No because it just may be genetic and no one else can climb it. Also, if you train for one climb your body will change and specialize for that climb. Maybe someone else will never put the effort into Realization that Sharma did due to time/money constraints. Their body will never adapt and it may never see another ascent. I know this is unlikely, but just using this as an example. Did Wolfgang Gullich receive the doubt of the climbing community when he claimed 5.14d?
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igcuesta
Jul 11, 2003, 12:40 PM
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Alex Huber has put a little (more than little perhaps) controversy on Bernabe's achievement by sending this letter to desnivel.com:
http://www.desnivel.com/deportes/escalada_en_roca/images/alexander_chilambalam.pdf
(original Alex's english message)
http://www.desnivel.es/object.php?o=8174
(spanish translation)
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crux_clipper
Jul 13, 2003, 5:43 AM
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OUCH!
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alvchen
Jul 13, 2003, 6:01 AM
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The main problem with Alex Huber's logic is that he fails to realize, as stated above, the difficulty of many climbs is relative.
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xanx
Jul 13, 2003, 3:04 PM
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ok fill me in here real quick... what was L'Autre Cote Du Ciel? who put it up? i have heard of Realization, Las Ramblas ext., Orujo, Chilam Balam, Akira, but not that one as climbs over 9a...
kind of odd, though, that no boulderers are proposing "9A" or "8C+" boulder problems... especially considering the nasty hard stuff fred and bernd and the others have been up to.... of course, i think a lot of boulderers don't even mention a proposed grade anyway....
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biff
Jul 13, 2003, 4:11 PM
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Also being able to get a .15a in a few tries is rediculous... I think if it took you 3 years to dial the moves of a route .. it could take up to a month to work a route a few grades below that.
None the less, what Alex is saying is true .. What other routes has this guy climbed .. where is the proof of the ascent .. and where is the proof that this guy can climb as hard as he says.
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xanx
Jul 13, 2003, 4:52 PM
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i wouldn't doubt that he did the climb... it would be way low if he claimed to do it but didn't actually redpoint it.... i think the big question is the grade. others have mistakenly pointed to his ascent of Orujo as proof that he can climb so hard, but (lol) the problem is, he is in the same boat with Orujo as with this - no one has repeated Orujo or confirmed the grade, so you can't excalty say "well, he did Orujo, and he said this is harder, so he is obviously strong enough that it could be a .15c..."
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junkie
Jul 14, 2003, 4:48 AM
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L'Autre Cote De La Ciel is a 9a put up by Rouhling in '97 in Eaux Claires.
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dnruss
Jul 14, 2003, 4:52 AM
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5.15c is so ridiculously hard i dont want to think about it.....
ahh it hurts to think about 5.15.STOP SSTTOOPP!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOO...
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maohaihuang
Jul 14, 2003, 8:03 PM
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i think what Alex Huber wanted to say is just that -- sufficiently document
it or face the consequences that had happened in the past. His talk
about flashing 9 is about the things people could think of, hence
showing parallels between the last 9b claim and this one.
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melekzek
Jul 14, 2003, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: if it took you 3 years to dial the moves of a route
I guess it took three years to get to the level of the climb. It is not only dialing the moves, you see...
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akd
Jul 14, 2003, 9:40 PM
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First, I want to state clear that this following opinion is completely mine and totally hypothetical, since I didn't see nor (obviously) redpointed chilam -balam... (I wish, jeje).
Part of the anger of Alex Huber, in a very arrogant and kind of "daddy" position towards the other climber (Fernandez), is that it may have took Fernandez a lot to redpoint Chilam, but that's not good enough to proposed the grade 5.15c since he, for example, had to work a lot to do OM (lost 10 pounds, trained a lot specifically for it, etc..., when he returned for the photos he couldn't do it again) and that's "only" 9a, 5.14d.
The level of Fernandez climbing should be in no discussion (8a at 14, 8c at 17, firts, and confirmed 8c+ of Spain...), but, nevertheless, the proposed grade of 9b+ could sound out of bounds, since he didn't do any other 9a, 9a+, or 9b, than his own Orujo. As I said in another post, had he tried Realization or OM (both long routes, not like Action Directe), he may have had a harder time than in Orujo, thus giving to them a grade (or half grade) more than his previous hardest, Orujo (9a+), but that's is just plain speculations...
I admire Huber for his accomplishments in the sport area, but this letter is not something of what he should feel proud of it, since there are mistakes (redpointing a 9b+ after 3 years doesn't mean that you have to onsight a 9a...) and charge with an attitude that should never exist between fellow climbers.
Time and tries will tell if it's "only" 9a, 9a+ or, who knows, 9b+; but it's obviously pretty damn hard.
ps: how do I post a photo here?
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akd
Jul 14, 2003, 9:48 PM
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I want to post two photos of the route mentioned before (dé l'autre cote du ciel), so everyone can take a look at it
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xanx
Jul 14, 2003, 10:21 PM
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also when someone says "It took him 3 years to do..." as evidence of its difficulty... well, how often did he work it during those 3 years? every day? even every week? or was it like "I tried it a bunch of times over the course of 3 years"?? A friend of mine (who boulders v11) recently sent the Illustrious Buddah in the Gunks, a v8. He has flashed v8. he first tried Illustrious over a year ago. so, do you say it took him over a year to do Illustrious? of course not. he only actually got on it about 20 times. But technically, it did "take" him over a year.
Maybe Huber could have been a bit less harsh, but some of his points are very valid. First off, the guy should at least have a number of 9a's under his belt (and/or an attempt at Realization...) before proposing 9b+ (or 9a+....). also, huber makes a good point - if you can redpoint 9b+, you should at least be able to redpoint 9a in less than a day. Think about Sharma and Realization - 9a+ redpoint and he has onsighted stuff as hard as 8c+ (5.14a right?) or harder (Biotop is a 5.14a - he onsighted it). I would be very surprised if he could just tick off Action Directe, OM, Intermezzo, Vakuumgeist, The Fly, Kryptonite, Biographie, Livin Astro ect... all in under a day each (and hopefully flashing at least one).
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akd
Jul 15, 2003, 12:07 AM
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First of all, 5.14a is 8b+, not 8c+ (not criticizing). Second, according to Huber's logic, Graham, that sent Passion (8c+) in 4 tries, should definitely be able to redpoint Realization (he has already tried it like 25 times in the last couple of years, without success so far)...Or Ramonet, that took 5 tries to redpoint Kinematrix, won't have much trouble in other 9a's....
As stated in this thread before, some people fit just better to one kind of difficulty than other. The Fly is a crimpy short route. Vakuumgeist and Intermezzo (almost vertical the last one) are not very long also, while OM and Open Air are much longer ones, for instance. Orujo is very steep and long (it's in Archidona, in a cave, and it's 140 feet), so it's Chilam Balam (obviously longer), so both routes CAN be compared...
Another thing about Huber, I also would like to see a video and/or photos of Bernabé sending this mounstrous route, but not because he "owes" it to the "climbing community"..., just because it would be freak me out! (where's the video of OM??)
Lastly, not everyone is so in-loved of the photographs as Alex Huber is, so if Bernabé Fernández doesn't give a sh*** of taking photos of himself in the route for getting more money from sponsorships as Huber does, it's no reason to criticize him as if he owes it to "us" (the "climbing community"ż?).
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melekzek
Jul 15, 2003, 1:00 AM
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In reply to: I want to post two photos of the route mentioned before (dé l'autre cote du ciel), so everyone can take a look at it
you can either submit the photo in this site, or put somewhere on the web, then simply put this :
(img)http://freecrappywebserver.com/somecrazyusername/therouteeverybodyistalkingabout.jpg(/img)
using "[" instead of "(" and "]" for ")"
there you go
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akd
Jul 15, 2003, 2:26 AM
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Thanx
Since the phto I've got is from a french magazine (the pic is great), I think that maybe there'll be a problem to submit it to rc.com, and the I tried the freewebserver option but it was soooo long that i quit, so I'll post a link to a british site that has a photo of it (not too good though):
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=721
Credits to dan evans and ukclimbing
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vertical_reality
Jul 15, 2003, 1:02 PM
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For anyone interested the following is an article from 8a.nu.
"After three years of work, on July 4th, Bernabé Fernández finally managed to redpoint his mega project at Villanueva del Rosario near Málaga, Spain. The route is more than 80(!) meters long, has almost 400 moves and is, you guessed it, super steep. According to Fernandez Chilam Balam weighs in at the never before proposed grade of - 9b+ and is entirely natural. We haven't heard much about Barnabč has been up to for the last couple of years, I guess we now know why...
The Andalusian's hardest before this was his own, unrepeated, Orujo, 9a+, at Archidona.
Now for the million dollar question: Could this route really be 9b+? In order to make his claim credible it's now up to Fernadez to offer the climbing world some kind of proof, showing he's really miles ahead of everyone else. Normally a climber should be able to onsight routes around three grades easier than his redpoint level. Considering the amount of work he's put in on this route, in Fernandez case four grades is maybe more fair, but still, no one has been even remotely close to onsighting 8c+... Can he do it?" - 8a.nu
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rockprodigy
Jul 15, 2003, 2:47 PM
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I have to agree with Huber and the last post. "Most" sport climbers can on sight about 3-4 letter grades below their redpoint level...depending on indidvidual strengths, and how much you put into redpointing a route. Think about your own climbing...how many 12a redpointers have never on-sighted an 11a? The same principles should transfer to the higher grades. If it's really 15c, then 14c should be pretty easy for this guy...he should be able to on-sight at leaste one.
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kalcario
Jul 15, 2003, 3:17 PM
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I think Huber kind of shoots his mouth off a little bit with the blanket assertion that you should be able to onsight 3 letter grades below your redpoint level, just looking through the scorecards on 8a.nu you see many people who've done 14a yet have not onsighted 13a, there is a lot of muscle memory that goes into a hard redpoint that does not necessarily carry over to other routes. He should be patting this Fernandez guy on the back for sticking with his project so long and not altering it as he apparently has done in the past with other routes, and who cares, really, about the grade. Maybe Fernandez is playing head games, grading it to motivate others to repeat it and get an ego boost for debunking an inflated grade.
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maohaihuang
Jul 15, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Only because Huber wrote it in English doesn't mean you should
read it between the lines. Some of you guys apparently never know
how Germans talk (in any language).
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djmeat
Jul 15, 2003, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: To quote from the translation: "I have the made blue legs and the knees in alive meat".
alive meat???
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sticky_fingers
Jul 15, 2003, 9:53 PM
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I took that from the webpage Kalcario posted to translate the original story of the ascent from Spanish into English. I, along with most of the people who posted on page 1 of this thread, found the translation(s) funny.
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bigdan
Jul 16, 2003, 4:24 AM
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chris hasn't onsighted .14b yet. so much for that.
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xanx
Jul 16, 2003, 4:35 AM
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ok, so maybe sharma has only onsighted up to 5.14a, so say u sould be able to onsight say, 4 to 5 grades below your redpoint. in any case, someone who can redpoint 5.15c should have no trouble onsighting 5.14b and should be able to onsight 5.14c. So i think Fernandez should give Biographie or Livin Astro or some other 5.14c a try.... so how long it takes him... he can do Realization while he is at it...
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rockprodigy
Jul 16, 2003, 3:28 PM
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I think Huber gives the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't just say outright, that he must be able to on-sight at certain level...he also says that he should be able to do 14c in a couple tries, or 14d in a day, etc., etc.. Huber suggests several scenarios in which Fernandez could prove his ability establish the 9b+ rating besides just on-sighting.
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vertical_reality
Jul 16, 2003, 4:10 PM
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By the sound of the letter, Huber is just trying to help Fernandez protect his credibility.
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igcuesta
Jul 16, 2003, 5:09 PM
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In reply to: By the sound of the letter, Huber is just trying to help Fernandez protect his credibility.
By the sound of the letter, Huber seems arrogant and fatherly. He may be right, though.
March, 1996 (Desnivel mag #136). Alex Huber, talking about B. Moon attacks over the first 9a's proposals (including Huber's), stated on an interview:
"(...)First ascenders definitely never know their own creation grade. Thus, they should give a suggestion that MUST be respected until the route is repeated for the first time(...)"
Live to see...
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joshy8200
Jul 16, 2003, 5:33 PM
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You know I have a hard time understanding how Sharma, Graham, Loskot, Julien can begin to grade their routes. But to me it would seem that if it takes me two or three tries to redpoint 5.10d...then for it to take two years or even not be able to redpoint 5.11a there is something wrong with that.
This being the case with Dave Graham...the guy has sent two solid 5.14d (and from seeing and hearing about his routes in Rumney...those things are sick). For Realization to just be the "next step" at 5.15a?!?! Doesn't that seem a bit of an understatement.
In the words of Dave Graham..."look at the holds on this V13...they're buckets...it can get a lot harder." With a rational like that I don't question that routes can progress through the 5.15 grade.
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hasbeen
Jul 16, 2003, 5:42 PM
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Huber makes a fair number of good points, however the rules he cites to validate the grade are ludicrous. With specific training for one route only it's easily possible to skip many grades on subsequent ascents. His points may be valid for someone that travels and climbs full time, but someone that climbs only specific routes with one goal in mind has no reason to amass such a list of accomplishments first. On sight climbing is almost a whole other dicipline and the said climber may never even attempt to push their on sight limits. If, say, they found a route requiring a series of moves far harder than anything they've attempted or seen, specific training, and not climbing, may be the only way for them to succeed (like Gullich on Action Direct). Therefore, all other climbing requirements get thrown out the window when speaking of one hard ascent.
But, rating something so much harder than anything else certainly takes some huevos and a brazen attitude. He's got to know that the climbing world is going to cry foul and that only but subsequent attempts by other top climbers will this grade become validated. Until then, it will be universally doubted. Therefore, if he calls it 15c and it gets quickly repeated he's going to have a bit of egg on his face. Historically, there have been countless examples of this. Conversely, Chris took no risk with Realization by not grading it, or purposefully dismissing its difficulty. My guess is that Realization very hard indeed, maybe the hardest yet. My guess is that this route may not be quite as hard as advertised, though I hope it's not because I like the idea of someone on the fringe establishing a futuristic climb. But my guess is irrelevant and time will tell. I do find it interesting the Akira has held up over time as it was generally dismissed when first established.
However the grade settles out, the climb itself sounds very very cool and I'm sure will end up as some sort of classic, no matter what.
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tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 4:19 AM
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here's a quick list of the hardest sport routes around just to get the facts out:
Chilam Bilam 9b+
Akira 9b
La Rambla 9a+
Realization 9a+ (speculated grade, not stated by FA)
Flex Luthor 9a+ (speculated grade, not stated by FA)
Orujo 9a+
L'autre cote du ciel 9a/9a+ (Yuji says harder than Hugh 9a)
Action Direct 9a baseline grade
Fred Rouhling has a "le projet" in Charente he thinks may be 9b+ but then again everybody has a project.
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xanx
Jul 17, 2003, 4:27 AM
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In reply to: Fred Rouhling has a "le projet" in Charente he thinks may be 9b+ but then again everybody has a project.
right :roll: :roll: i think we know how this will end....
ok boys, same time next month with a thread on Fred's project??
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akd
Jul 17, 2003, 4:54 AM
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Actually, I have seen a photograph of "le project" (a terrible dyno/strech to a mono in a small roof, right to the 4th bolt of the "route") and it looked sick (however, the hole didn't seem very "natural", but... who knows?).
In the topo that I've got this project is separated in three parts: 8aFb, 8b/8a+Fb, and 8aFb (something like V11, V12/13, V11, I think).
Another thing, and this about Akira: (Junkie will get mad...)
One guy form the Desnivel magazine, José Manuel Velázquez, among different answers regarding Chilam balam (he wasn't defending Bernabé fernández), said that if you compared the photos from Akira taken in the magazine RocnWall nş 2 (sept/oct 1995) with the state of the route today, you could realize that some holds were "filled"....
http://www.desnivel.com/textos/foros/index.php?d=foro0005&f=5&id=6136&pag=2
(sorry, it's in spanish, but I can translate the part from Velázquez if anybody wants because it's very "juicy" in various things)
I've read the article of 8a.nu (which stands with Rouhling), and also know that Dani Andrada has been working on it. Maybe we should ask him...
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igcuesta
Jul 17, 2003, 7:41 AM
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In reply to: Actually, I have seen a photograph of "le project" (a terrible dyno/strech to a mono in a small roof, right to the 4th bolt of the "route") and it looked sick (however, the hole didn't seem very "natural", but... who knows?). In the topo that I've got this project is separated in three parts: 8aFb, 8b/8a+Fb, and 8aFb (something like V11, V12/13, V11, I think). Another thing, and this about Akira: (Junkie will get mad...) One guy form the Desnivel magazine, José Manuel Velázquez, among different answers regarding Chilam balam (he wasn't defending Bernabé fernández), said that if you compared the photos from Akira taken in the magazine RocnWall nş 2 (sept/oct 1995) with the state of the route today, you could realize that some holds were "filled".... http://www.desnivel.com/textos/foros/index.php?d=foro0005&f=5&id=6136&pag=2 (sorry, it's in spanish, but I can translate the part from Velázquez if anybody wants because it's very "juicy" in various things) I've read the article of 8a.nu (which stands with Rouhling), and also know that Dani Andrada has been working on it. Maybe we should ask him...
Actually, as far as I know, Dani is "about" to send: he did Akira with one fall. Although he hasn't sent yet he said that the grade is, almost for sure, less than 9b. Actually he said that the route might even be 9a.
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junkie
Jul 17, 2003, 2:57 PM
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In reply to: Another thing, and this about Akira: (Junkie will get mad...) One guy form the Desnivel magazine, JosĂŠ Manuel VelĂĄzquez, among different answers regarding Chilam balam (he wasn't defending BernabĂŠ fernĂĄndez), said that if you compared the photos from Akira taken in the magazine RocânâWall nÂş 2 (sept/oct 1995) with the state of the route today, you could realize that some holds were "filled"....
Nah, I'll never get mad with someone posting facts, or direct quotes. It's when people start spraying old myths and rumous pretending that they ARE facts....
Yeah, I saw that little blurb, but I was unsure of the translation (my spanish is pretty weak). This is the first I'd heard of it, but it's interesting!My word, if Akira has not become the longest running controversy in Sport climbing.
And I also heard that Dani was trying it and is "close"... whatever that means. But with regards to him saying it's one grade or another, I had not heard anything. Maybe some magazine should interview him, since he is the newest 9a-club member :)
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akd
Jul 17, 2003, 7:48 PM
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Thanx Ignacio, I didn't know that Dani had done Akira with "only" one fall. I knew that he had managed to solve all the different moves separately, but I didn't know how close he was.
I agree with junkie, since Akira, whether we like the route or Rouhling, or neither of both, has become a "classic" in this kind of discussions (mostly curiosity, nothing more); it would be nice to read an interview from such a fine climber like Dani Andrada about it.
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junkie
Jul 17, 2003, 8:00 PM
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Alright Spanish RC.com members: go get us a picture of this beast. I want to see what a 15c looks like.
I've stood at the base of Oruja, La Rambla, and Realization. All were astounding routes to look at (and to boulder the first move of...). And now I would like to see this rig.
The Archidona cave was stunning! too bad 'bout the goat-shit.... What a route!!!! But I could not see the bolt-on on Oruja hold anywhere. Where on the route is it? Anyone know?
GIMMIE PICTURES!!!
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akd
Jul 17, 2003, 10:47 PM
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From Chilam Ballam I believe there will be pictures soon since Bernabé Fernández already talked with Desnivel about that issue.
Well, I know you've already seen Orujo, but if you want, I can send you a picture of Bernabé sending it. (I would submit it here, but I don't want to get in trouble, since I didn't took it myself)
By the way, while I've been in Spain and enjoyed very much my stay there, I must tell you that I'm not Spaniard.
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hasbeen
Jul 17, 2003, 10:52 PM
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Post the photos. No one will squawk.
Besides, you're not getting paid. Just reference 'em and you're clear.
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akd
Jul 17, 2003, 11:20 PM
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Here's a link to it:
http://sagc.ifrance.com/sagc/orujo.htm
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alvchen
Jul 18, 2003, 12:06 AM
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:shock:
One thing's for sure. I'll never be able to climb that.
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astur
Jul 18, 2003, 11:16 PM
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Well, see? Alex Hubber wrotte a second letter to Desnivel. Here you are the second one:
In reply to: HelloĄ After my letter has been published in desnivel's homepage it seems that all the people are upset about my position, because they see my behavior as agressive against Bernabe. In fact, it is not. About ten years ago i said that everybody has the right to propose a certain grade for his first ascent and this proposal has to remain up to the moment when it gets confirmed or changed. Therefore i also accept Bernabe's proposal - i wouldn't rate it down. But on the other side, i cannot take this proposal seriously as I can't see any references for such a high grade. Therefore i would be lying if would say that I believe in the correctness of Bernabe's proposal of the grade 9b+! What is indeed necessary that also desnivel shows its position, because after the isolated appearance of my letter it looks like that I am the only person on earth who thinks that 'chilam balam' could be potentially overgraded. Desnivel has to make the public understand what proposing a 9b+ really means and that it is somewhat indecent if you have no references. I am not the jealous, unfair asshole like it seems now with my statement being left alone. In fact, i tried to avoid that the same happens to Bernabe what has happened to Roughling. I am sure that Roughling is not happy about the fact that he has questionable credibility nowadays - and i am sure that Bernabe wouldn't be happy either. In fact, i give Bernabe a fair and honest chance, because i let him know my opinion - informing him about my doubts gives him the opportunity to answer. It only would be unfair if people start talking and spreading rumours and doubts behind his back - this is what we usually call as 'Talk is cheap' and this is what so many people simply do! Alexander.
I promiss to go and see the route for you all, as i live just a few km from the hot spot, he he he he!!!! I'll try and get some good pictures.
A escalar que son dos dias.
Hugo
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xanx
Jul 19, 2003, 1:37 AM
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yo just out of curiosity, what is the hardest confirmed route Fernandez has sent? has he done any 9a's? i think he has done an 8c+...
if he has done at least one or two 9a's then his credibility for calling Orujo a 9a+ is a bit higher...
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igcuesta
Jul 21, 2003, 9:51 AM
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Orujo has been tried by hardcore climbers like Pablo Barbero and Iker Pou (both of them 9a climbers) and they say it is waaaaaaaay hard.
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akd
Jul 22, 2003, 12:59 AM
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All right Hugo!!
It would be great if you could take some pictures of the route!
I have just arrived from a weekend at the Sierras, so I'm hungrier than ever! jaja
By the way, Ignacio, I didn't know that Iker Pou tried Orujo. When was that?
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igcuesta
Jul 30, 2003, 8:30 AM
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Ooooops! I meant Andrada, not Pou. Sorry.
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warloc
Jul 30, 2003, 9:24 AM
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Chilam Balam's 9b+ has made all the spanish comunity nearly collapse the forums about it in Spain. I don't really know what to think. Bernabe made the first 8c+ in Spain, and after a lot of years it has been repeated and confirmed by "top-class" climbers. Also he made the first 9a+, and nobody has repeated it, so we'll have to wait until somebody sends it to know his opinion. But 9b+... ufff!!! probably too much, isn't it? Maybe he's wrong, or maybe climbers will call him as Wolfgang Güllich after a couple of years.
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sustainedclimber
Jul 31, 2003, 4:41 AM
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Note to all...Unless you are people that can climb at that ability, who cares what the climb is rated or what this guy wants to rate it. I'm not saying I can climb at that level, or will I ever be able to. Let him feel good about his work, I mean, it took him three years, let's just give him a round of applause and his 15 minutes of fame until someone else claims to have climbed a 15d or 16a. Climbing is a wonderful sport, and I'm noticing way too many politics in the sport that only slightly bother me, but nonetheless, they shouldn't exist at all. Good day to all
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akd
Jul 31, 2003, 5:24 AM
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In reply to: Ooooops! I meant Andrada, not Pou. Sorry.
Well, actually when Andrada first tried it, he said that it felt more like an 8c+ (I don't remember if he said that about the "first" Orujo, 9a, or the second, 9a+), but then he couldn't redpoint it, so...
And Hugo: what happened with the promised pictures? :?
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overlord
Aug 11, 2003, 12:26 PM
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In reply to: 5.15a? Light duty. This guy from Malaga is calling 15c for his 250 foot long one pitch route that overhangs the base by 90 feet. Took him 3 years and he supposedly put up a 15a before. The link: http://desnivel.com/object.php?o=8157
hehehe, i just put up a new 5.16d at a local crag. and it took me the whole two hours.
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igcuesta
Aug 13, 2003, 9:42 AM
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Dani Andrada has given his opinion about Chilam Balam:
http://www.desnivel.es/object.php?o=8441
For those who doesn't speak spanish: on this article, Andrada explains his thoughts about what he calls "climbing free". Daniel says that the important point is not the war about the gradings of the routes but the respect for the routes as they were created. Daniel criticizes the hold hadling in routes such as Akira or Orujo, where after the FA some holds were broken intentionally or filled with sika.
Andrada says that Chilam Balam implies a revolution but admits that he wouldn't never dare to give a route such a grade because he knows what might come over him in doing so. However Dani belives that, despite of possible lies or
exaggerations, nobody has to demonstrate his/her sendings.
Andrada also criticizes Huber's arguments about climbing grades and mathematics. Following this mathematics almost nobody has sent their propposals, says Andrada.
Regarding Chilam Balam itself, he says that in order to give an opinion the best thing to do is going to give try. He is going to try the route ASAP because (citing) "I was below some months ago, when it was just a project, and I can assure that it's the best line I've seen in my whole life. I don't know
wether it may be 9b+ or not, but as a climber and route opener, I'm dying of envy; I wish it was my own creation."
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igcuesta
Aug 13, 2003, 9:58 AM
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akd: on the next number of Desnivel and Escalar magazines, Bernabé will be interviewed and some photos of Chilam Balam will appear.
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akd
Aug 13, 2003, 11:11 AM
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Thank you Ignacio, and by the way, I read the article of Dani Andrada; quite significant in various aspects.
I knew that Bernabé filled some natural holes from Orujo, but I didn't know that he (intentionally?) broke a hold too. And in the matter of Akira, since Dani has been trying it, I wish he'd said more about his tries. Nevertheless, he says that the original line was like 8c+/9a.... Who knows... (it's not in my to-do list, anyway)
Salu2
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igcuesta
Oct 2, 2003, 9:14 AM
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Dani Andrada has tried "Chilam Balam". His opinions will be published in the next Desnivel mag (Oct). He has said that Chilam Balam is harder than all the routes he has ever tried (including La Rambla, Orujo, Realization and Akira) and that it seems difficult for the grade to be less than 9b. He also said that you need "unhuman stamina" to send the route. Anyway, he has undergraduated the section grades proppossed by Bernabé. Bernabé proppossed 8c+,8b+/c,8c (trying to remember, ain't completely sure). Meanwhile Dani Andrada's grades are 8c/8b/8b+.
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azrockclimber
Apr 27, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: Three years to get 250 ft. of climbing!?! How long did it take Dean Potter to do El Cap and Half Dome......... Whatever.
haha...Hell yeah! good point.. I would never spend that kind of time on any route no matter how hard.
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unrooted
Apr 27, 2005, 8:14 PM
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That rock looks sooooo good, I want to pinch tufas like that, but at a much lower angle.
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: melonhead wrote: Three years to get 250 ft. of climbing!?! How long did it take Dean Potter to do El Cap and Half Dome......... Whatever. haha...Hell yeah! good point.. I would never spend that kind of time on any route no matter how hard.
And that's why you'll never be any good at climbing. I'm not slagging you for it. You should climb for whatever makes you happy. I, too, find it hard to focus on projects and instead prefer to travel around and climb within my comfort zone. Of course, I will never be any good either.
If you choose to suck, then be happy with your decision. I know I am. However, I do appreciate those who strive for more.
As for Potter, well, I'd say it took him 10 or 15 years to do those two routes since he first started rehearsing those routes when he was first on them. His ascent of those two routes, in one day, was a culmination of all of his climbing experience throught the years. He didn't just walk up and on sight them both in a day. Someone will, some day, and it'll be rad. But we're not to that level yet.
3 years of work on a route is nothing to scoff about. It shows a shitload of dedication and determination. Do you have any idea what it's like to find something and get completely bouted and then work and work until you reach the level to be able to climb it? I am completely miffed that this type of focus and drive is being pissed on. These guys spend their lives dedicated to a sport that brings them very little fame and far less money. If they focused on almost any other pursuit with the same dedication they would have a much more "comfortable" lifestyle. I'm sure they don't care that some fat wanker sits in his office and disses them but I'm confused as to the logic.
To use the parlance of our times, what's up, dude?!
Let me ask you, do you watch sports on TV? Have you ever seen a Super Bowl, Olympics, or World Cup? Or do you prefer to watch guys playing b-ball down at the local Y?
The reason we like to watch Michael Jordan is because he takes a sport beyond that level it was previously at. Ditto for any sport, or even activity. The reason that some of us are interested in the high-level accomplishments of the sport is because we're interested in the sport. If you like something, it's natural to wonder about what is possible within that endeavor and to follow those whom are attemt to excel at it. This seems pretty natural in just about anything I can think of. Do you like to listen to bad music or good? Read bad writing, or something that inspires or educates you? Do you prefer to eat food by a good chef, or someone learning to cook? Do you like to watch your National Team or go to the park to see the "c" league? If you are truly this disinterested in the sport, what are you doing on this web site?
As for me, these folks out there pushing the envelope are all heroes. I may personally like some of them more than others, and ditto for their accomplishments, but I'll give them all credence for gettin' out there and doing it, instead of sitting in here squawking like a bunch of bitter housewives.
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janjaf
Apr 27, 2005, 8:50 PM
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hasbeen, that is THE most sensible and inspiring post on rc.com in the time i've been here. Well said. I'll be back next time i have som trophies to pass out .
--
Noone so far has, in all this yammering on about Rouhling, mentioned the article about him in CLimbing some issues back. Most myths about him, and Akira etc where busted, and he appeared as an inspiring serious and humble climber. No matter how right Huber and his grading calculator maybe , he doesn't come across as humble... imnsho.
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johnnym
Apr 27, 2005, 9:00 PM
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[quote="janjaf"]hasbeen, that is THE most sensible and inspiring post on rc.com in the time i've been here. Well said. quote]
Totally agree! :roll:
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ikefromla
Apr 27, 2005, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: hasbeen, that is THE most sensible and inspiring post on rc.com in the time i've been here. Well said. Totally agree! :roll:
That's cuz Edwards is the man.
Allez "Coach!"
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vegastradguy
Apr 27, 2005, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: And that's why you'll never be any good at climbing. I'm not slagging you for it. You should climb for whatever makes you happy. I, too, find it hard to focus on projects and instead prefer to travel around and climb within my comfort zone. Of course, I will never be any good either. If you choose to suck, then be happy with your decision. I know I am. However, I do appreciate those who strive for more.
somehow i don't think Dean Potter would ever watch me climb a 5.8 or something and then turn to Steph Davis and go "you know, that guy right there just sucks...he should project routes more."
to say someone sucks because they dont climb at a certain level is rather condescending and, more to the point, passes judgment on someones pursuit of their own passion- something i'd like to think should not be done.
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musicman
Apr 27, 2005, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: Noone so far has, in all this yammering on about Rouhling, mentioned the article about him in CLimbing some issues back. Most myths about him, and Akira etc where busted, and he appeared as an inspiring serious and humble climber.
do you realize how far climbing has been pushed already? they're having to just extend old routes to get possible 5.15's. It doesn't seem like there are a lot of them out there under 100 feet, i'm not sure about the acual statistics, but you always hear about the "rope-stretching 175 foot pitch extension to Crazy Hard Route With Really Long Name which is listed as a possible 5.15a/b!" it's just an interesting thought
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 9:34 PM
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In reply to: somehow i don't think Dean Potter would ever watch me climb a 5.8 or something and then turn to Steph Davis and go "you know, that guy right there just sucks...he should project routes more." to say someone sucks because they dont climb at a certain level is rather condescending and, more to the point, passes judgment on someones pursuit of their own passion- something i'd like to think should not be done.
yes, he would. In the right context. You have missed the point.
For example, the other night Charles Barkley said the Dallas Mavericks could not play defense. I believe he used the word "suck". Of course, this is relative. I'm a decent basketball player but if I tried to score on Dirk Nowitski I'm sure he'd shut me right down without much trying. If someone used that example to prove the Dallas had good defenders I can guarantee you Sir Charles would come back with some comment along the lines of "that doesn't prove anything. Edwards sucks." Of course, he would be right.
So while Dean probably would not judge you climbing a 5.8, if someone asked his opinion about who was the better climber, the 5.8 guy or the guy who spent 3 years training to do a 5.16, someone is going to come out on the Barkley "Dallas sucks" scale. It's not condescending. It's objective.
Furthermore, if Potter was directly asked if he thought the 5.8 guy might improve if he projected more routes I'm certain his answer would be yes.
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jpdreamer
Apr 27, 2005, 10:37 PM
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Hasbeen, somehow applying that logic to climbing just doesn't seem right. I don't think in climbing sucking is related to relative ability. Perhaps it's because in climbing you don't compete against others, but rather attempt the challenge of the rock it's self. If someone was climbing a 5.7 beautifully, fireing on all cylinders, even if that was the hardest they could climb the word suck doesn't seem apropriate no matter what. I might use the word in relation to the ability demanded by a particular route, but notin relation to the ability of others.
But anyway, if you have the dedication to spend 3 years working something, that's impressive, no matter what the grade is.
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vegastradguy
Apr 27, 2005, 11:34 PM
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what point did i miss? the one where you're comparing me to Dean Potter and saying I suck in conclusion?
that comparison is so incredibly off base that it need never be made.
i dont compare myself to anyone else when it comes to climbing, and i'd be willing to be money that Potter, Caldwell, and the rest of the elite climbers dont sit around comparing their abilities to their peers....why would they?
climbing is about you and the rock, not comparing your ability to others- which is why that old adage 'The best climber is the one having the most fun' is so very true....
i think, hasbeen, that you have missed everyone elses point...
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 11:34 PM
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In reply to: Hasbeen, you seem to place a lot more emphasis on ability that I do.
I relation to what? I am not being personal at all. I don't care how or why individuals climb. The point I was making was towards armchair climbers dissing the accomplishments of others and even attacking the people who found these accomplishments inspiring.
What I admire is the process it takes to reach the highest levels. That is why those who make sacrifices deserve to be lauded.
This also doesn't have much to say about ability either. Lots of people have world class ability and don't use it. I, for one, have the ability to be a world class mountaineer as my freeclimbing skill is fairly high as is my cardiovascular prowess. What sets me apart from, say, Mark Twight or Hans Florine is pure gumption and love for the sport. Their single-minded focus, sacrifice, and dedication is what has allowed them to make world-class ascents. I want to have an extra beer at night. I want to eat dessert. I want to sleep in. I don't want to be cold. I don't love climbing enough and want to do other sports. When it's grim out I retreat. So why mock their accomplishments just because I choose to be lazy?
It's not just superior ability and trust funds--as many here seem to believe--that allow these climbers to make visionary ascents. Instead of choosing the safe path of a steady job and more security, full-time climbers make the choice to eek out a meagher living in full fledged pursuit of a sport they love. It's not ability that sets the best climber's apart. It's sacrifice, dedication, and a fearless attitude. And they deserve a little respect for making these choices.
Questioning the grade or the legitamacy of Chilam Balam is fine. But attacking the climber, as those reporting on the ascent, is absurd.
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jpdreamer
Apr 27, 2005, 11:37 PM
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I edited my post after further reflection in order to say what I meant to say better, sorry I didn't get it done before you'd replied.
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 11:40 PM
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In reply to: the rest of the elite climbers dont sit around comparing their abilities to their peers....why would they?
Have you read this thread? That is exactly what they are doing.
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 11:51 PM
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In reply to: climbing is about you and the rock, not comparing your ability to others- which is why that old adage 'The best climber is the one having the most fun' is so very true....
Is this not a thread about the best climbers bickering over the hardest sport route in the world? How is that comment relevant?
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hasbeen
Apr 28, 2005, 12:20 AM
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Let's get this thread back on track. Hubble just saw its 4th or so ascent. 4 ascents in 15 years! Amazing. It will be interesting how this guy stacks up Action Direct to it, since he's heading there next.
http://www.planetfear.com/...detail.asp?n_id=5306
With that, how do these short bouldery routes stack up with things like Chilam? Both AD and Hubble have only had a few ascents. Realization is starting to chalk up ticks already. What of Gaskins' new 18' powerfest in England? Maybe it's the hardest route. Maybe short and powerful routes will always be harder to repeat at the given grade.
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janjaf
Apr 28, 2005, 8:21 AM
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As for Hubble and New violent Breed (by Gaskins) vs Bain de sang, Action Direkt, The Fly, and the other often-repeated routes in the upper strata of the grades, you may have a point. But i thinks it's more likely that climbers at that level simply can't climb the same kind of routes.
It'll be hard to sensibly compare 270' of roofs and tufas with 18' of thin sharp crimps. But say, for the sake of the experiment, that some short hard route and Chilam Balam were the same grade. It's unlikely that we'd ever know, since so few climb these grades, and those who do rarely climb the same kind of routes, more often putting up new routes in their own preferred style. Andrada has done more hard climbs than most, but almost all are first ascents:
http://www.8a.nu/...cgi?view=8009&page=1
I can't help wondering if this is a consequence of sponsorships and the pressure to do more hard routes.
Most climbers at this level are agreeing about Aktion Direkt as 9a, but almost all other repeated 9a's are in dispute - recently Dave Graham said Bain de Sang might be 8c+. We'll most like have to wait for years, before 9a and above becomes well-defined grades.
After writing this, I came across McClure great article here:
http://www.planetfear.com/..._detail.asp?a_id=110
Which says some of the same...
Btw. her's some lists of the 9as and above... propably out of date, but still...
http://www.8a.nu/...articles/Etikb.shtml
http://www.saclimb.co.za/hardest.html
-------
I just have to add, that this quote from hasbeen:
In reply to: I want to have an extra beer at night. I want to eat dessert. I want to sleep in. I don't want to be cold. I don't love climbing enough and want to do other sports. When it's grim out I retreat.
:D
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hasbeen
Apr 29, 2005, 5:41 PM
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Thanks for that link. McClure's piece was good. He's written a few things on the subject regarding cutting edge grades that are quite logical and not egotistical, which is rare. Most of this banter shows people to be a bit protective over their routes and styles.
I was just using the exact same point, comparing climbing to running, at a training conference recently when climbing came up. It really shows how climbing is still in its infancy when it comes to training and potential because, currently, the best climbers still seem--to some degree--to be able to repeat hard routes of varying styles. We have specialists now. I don't think Gaskins and Fernandez will be repeating each others routes any time soon. But guys like Sharma, Graham, Malcomb Smith, etc, have repeats of hard routes of vastly different styles. Certainly, as training techniques become more evolved, the chances of varying style repeats will become as likely as a 100 meter runner setting a world standard in the 800, and vice versa. And, while it's definitely begun, it's just a matter of time before there is no comparison between power climbers and endurance climbers.
What I find interesting here is to try and envision just what climbers will do in the future. Looking at some of Sharma's boulder problems, it's hard for me to even tell which holds he uses. They are vastly different looking to, say, Action Direct (which I've been on and had no trouble telling what to use--of course actually doing it is a whole different proposition). But knowing that, for certain, climbers are going to get much stronger it's amazing to think what will get climbed.
Ditto with endurance. I was on a route in Les Goudes(sp) years back that, to me, was completely gobsmacking in its continuous nature. It seemed impossible, even if every hold was a handle bar, since it went straight out a roof for a rope length. But a few days later Big Frank and Yuji both nearly on sighted it and downgraded it to 14a. And now that route is short compared to Chilam. Amazing.
Then we have guys like the Hubers, who've basically turned El Cap into a crag. Instead of this monsterous wall, it's like Tahquitz was in the 60s. Caldwell's ascent on the Dihedral Wall is completely visionary by today's standards, yet the tip of the iceberg of what's going to happen. His work days are so inspiring. "Practicing" the first 1800' of the route before noon. Then having lunch and bouldering til dark. Imagine Salathe witnessing this. He found Barber's 3 hour ascent of the Sentinel unfathomable.
I think Steph Davis' training is a glimpse into the future. With a goal of a long free climb, she had to shun going cragging in favor of bouldering for specific power and running ultra marathons for endurance. The old climbing is the best training for climbing theory really only applies for beginners.
While a bit of a tanget to the original topic, I find all banter on the subject of human performance interesting, especially when it comes to climbing since it's so poorly understood.
Also, if anyone has a current list of hard routes and repeats I'd like to see it. The above is pretty out of date.
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pbjosh
Apr 29, 2005, 6:11 PM
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A couple notes / points of interest:
Bain de Sang has had the most repeats of any 9a (maybe 9?) and has been suggested to be 8c+ twice (Graham and Pou) AFAIK. FWIW, This route is very very thin, not terribly steep, and Dave Graham and Iker Pou are both sticks, much unlike someone like Nicole, Sharma or Julian who is much much more muscular / larger framed.
Om, Alex Huber's 1993 9a, and the second claimed 9a in the world, is still unrepeated.
Action Direct is the 2nd most repeated 9a and the only suggested downrating I've ever heard is in McClure's article, but that was someone who did not repeat it so doesn't have a valid opinion.
Kinematix (newer 9a) was very very rapidly repeated by Ramon Julian and Patxi Usobiaga but neither suggested downrating. I remember reading that one of them did it 3rd try.
For further amazement, Iker Pou, who suggested Bain de Sang was 8c+ not 9a, also suggested upgrading The Nose on El Cap after failing to send it, suggesting 8b+ for the Great Roof pitch and 8c+ for the Changing Corners pitch!
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hasbeen
Apr 29, 2005, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: Iker Pou, who suggested Bain de Sang was 8c+ not 9a, also suggested upgrading The Nose on El Cap after failing to send it, suggesting 8b+ for the Great Roof pitch and 8c+ for the Changing Corners pitch!
was this via hill or burke's way on CC? burke also thought the nose was 14a. hill said no way but burke's not exaclty a punter on thin granite. since both up and downgrading, based on consensus, always occurs i would think it's time for the nose to get some sort of official upgrade. a lot of big-name folks have given it a look. i would say upgrade it 14a (or c?) and then let it get downgraded. why not? lynn has no reason to be modest about this at all. i think she would accept a general consensus.
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lvclimbingbum
Jun 1, 2005, 2:19 PM
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I just read that Dani Andrada just climbed this 5.15a/b somewhere in Spain. The pic of him climbing it makes it look true.
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eliliang
Jun 1, 2005, 2:36 PM
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In reply to: I just read that Dani Andrada just climbed this 5.15a/b somewhere in Spain. The pic of him climbing it makes it look true.
...and?
Does he think it is 5.15c? or not harder than 5.15a?
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bigjonnyc
Jun 1, 2005, 3:54 PM
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I haven't read all 7 pages of this due to laziness, but has anyone ever made claim to have sent a 5.15b? If not, it seems pretty stupid to claim a 5.15c.
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tradman
Jun 1, 2005, 4:43 PM
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Yes, Sharma tried to claim V16 (about 5.15b) for Mandala. Of course that was before somebody flashed it and took the grade down to V11.
:roll:
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pbjosh
Jun 1, 2005, 5:02 PM
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In reply to: Yes, Sharma tried to claim V16 (about 5.15b) for Mandala. Of course that was before somebody flashed it and took the grade down to V11. :roll:
Though this was a joke, were it not, claiming that grade would not be claiming 5.15b. This grade has been claimed at least one other time, by Fred Roughling for his route Akira. More recently Dani Andrada has suggested 5.15a/b for a new route of his in Spain.
FWIW Dai Koyamada suggested that, for his The Wheel of Life, a route grade might be more appropriate than a V grade, so instead of calling it V16 perhaps 5.15a would be more appropriate.
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pbjosh
Jun 1, 2005, 5:07 PM
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double post
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crshbrn84
Jun 1, 2005, 5:46 PM
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Now that I have read all 7 pages of this, I think im going to go aid climbing. Have fun debating egos, bye.
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eliliang
Jun 1, 2005, 6:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I just read that Dani Andrada just climbed this 5.15a/b somewhere in Spain. The pic of him climbing it makes it look true. ...and? Does he think it is 5.15c? or not harder than 5.15a?
Obviously I misunderstood. When you said "...this", I thought you meant "Chilam Bilam" which is the alleged 5.15c which Bernabe Fernandez allegedly FA'ed and which is the route the OP of this thread was referring to. Obviously you just mean Dani Andrada FA'ed "a" route, in the case, la novena enmienda.
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rufusandcompany
Jul 14, 2005, 6:32 PM
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pbjosh
Jul 14, 2005, 6:37 PM
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Good thing then, that you revived this thread to add your own opinion.
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rufusandcompany
Jul 14, 2005, 7:32 PM
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pbjosh
Jul 14, 2005, 7:53 PM
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My comments were not about the validity of any of these grades, if you read my contributions to this thread they're only facts that I've posted, trying to keep the facts straight in this thread.
People love to discuss world record performances in any sport, climbing is no different. I think world class routes are inspiring and I enjoy hearing news of them being climbed. So shoot me?
What was the point of your post - you're cooler than everyone in this thread so you're not going to discuss this issue, except to demonstrate your cool detatchment?
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d.ben
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Jul 14, 2005, 8:22 PM
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When Climbing visited Akira with Fred I read they discussed the obviously chipped holds. Fred said that he did not chip them. Then climbed the section without using the chipped holds for the guy from Climbing.
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janjaf
Jul 14, 2005, 8:41 PM
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I can't rate posts today, so I'l just say that pbjosh, right on the mark! Rufus, if noone cared about world class performances in climbing, most of the really great climbers wouldn't have sponsors. Or careers.
Do you yell at kids discussing who'll win the superbowl, and tell them that footballs not about who's best? of course not, they're just enjoying their sport. And so are we, and if you're not, why don't you look at some of this places many other offerings, instead og whining?
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crimpandgo
Jul 14, 2005, 8:50 PM
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GGGEEEEEEEEEZZZZ, most of don't have all day to climb you know.. What do we do with the rest of our day? Talk about other climbers :) Personally, I don't think many of us joe 5.average climbers care what the big guns think about us anyway. I think the big guns do care what we think. They wouldn't be out making so many videos for us so they can make $29 a pop :) Professional status comes at a price. That price is the gossip column and the lack of any privacy. Average folks live vicariously through others. Its the human way :)
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rufusandcompany
Jul 15, 2005, 1:21 AM
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