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beerandblood
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Jul 18, 2001, 5:14 AM
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kagunkie
Jul 18, 2001, 5:27 AM
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Sometimes you might want to climb and theres nobody around to belay,what should you do? JUST GO AND CLIMB!!!!! You know your limits, stay within them and youll be OK. Practice your ropework, hauling techniqus, jugging, rappelling, stealing pins, oops scratch that last one, he he he. MOST OF ALL go where you want, thats what climbing is all about anyway, going where you want no matter how dificult it is.
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kagunkie
Jul 18, 2001, 5:54 AM
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Ok..... I got off on a tangent. I love to solo and feel climbing by myself is one of my greatest treasures. Its pure nobody there to interupt the experience. But I have a great respect for GRAVITY and am usually very cautious about where and when Ill do it.
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kriso9tails
Jul 18, 2001, 6:04 AM
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You know, external factors cause prople to fall as well. I respect that people should be able to do what they want with their own lives, but in the land of liablility, if there are too many climbing related deaths then schools can't go on climbing trips, crags get shut down, bad stuff happens for the support.
Like I've said before, you may know your limits, but you don't control the bees, and rain, and lightning, and some one will shoot me if I list eveything that can (and has all too often) go wrong.
It's your life and do as you see fit, just consider the weight of your actions and repercutions of your mentality.
[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-17 23:06 ]
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kriso9tails
Jul 18, 2001, 6:33 AM
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It's not a death wish or or mastery. It's like a lottery, sure you probably won't die, but hey, today might be your lucky day and you beat the odds. So it's that way with all things, but free soloing ups your chances drastcally.
Like I said, It's your life, just don't make it my problem (Not that I want to read about anyone's death, that would be horrible, but if you died doing what you loved and believed in, more power to you.)
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kriso9tails
Jul 18, 2001, 7:08 AM
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Think about standing firmly on the ground. Your responses to your environment are limitless.
Now think about yourself on the rock, your hands are tied.
You will react to a stimulus before your brain recieves the message. Some of those reaction will cause you to let go. If you're on the ground you pick yourself and respond. If you're 50 feet off the deck, respond how you want, but gravity's got you now.
Also, free soloing relies on human judgement. People make mistakes.
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kriso9tails
Jul 18, 2001, 8:15 AM
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Huh? Belay? That would be neither free nor solo. am I missing something?
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kriso9tails
Jul 18, 2001, 5:58 PM
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Human judgement on the behalf of the climber. If you're onsighting 11d then obviuosly a 12d free solo would be a little ridiculus.
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kriso9tails
Jul 18, 2001, 6:12 PM
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No, that would be (in my opinion which counts for exactly squat) stupid. If you can't do the moves, then what's the point of working them free solo? This means you only get one chance to do it right (which you probably won't) and then you die. Why not work the moves roped in first. That's how you get better. Fear causes panic, not motivation. Fight or flight response is not good at eighty feet up.
Why not rope in all the time. The majority of climbing accidents that I hear about have nothing to do with skill. It's usually bad luck as well as malpractice. S*** happens, be prepared for when it does.
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coach
Jul 18, 2001, 6:24 PM
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Only free soloed once and didn't really mean to; was looking for a route to set up a top rope and just started up an area that looked easy. About 40 feet up it started to get harder and before we knew it, my partner and I were 60 feet up with 20 to go so pushed on. Once on top we realized how stupid it was and I have never made that mistake again. If I can't scramble up easily I tie in. Life is too precious to lose it on a climb.
Climb On
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kagunkie
Jul 19, 2001, 4:44 AM
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Deathwishes or mastery, neither of these are involved when Im climbing alone. Sometimes its just a way to get to the top for example to set up a toprope or rappell and clean a route. Other times (less often) just to climb when nobody is around to climb with, its always well below my leading limit. If you know your limits and stay within them it can be very rewarding to exercise the level of controll needed when your ass is on the line and incomparibly exillerating while your up there.
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wandt
Jul 19, 2001, 6:47 AM
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I think that free soloeing is also inconsiderate to others. If you're going to do it, alert your next of kin and the authorities of when you should be home safe, so if you're not they can go and scrape your remains up. I know MY climbing day would be thoroughly ruined by wandering up to the base of a climb and finding the two dimensional remnants of a would-be free soloist. Bleah!
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kagunkie
Jul 19, 2001, 3:21 PM
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Wandt, you said...
"I think that free soloing is also inconsiderate "
If you find my body I hope youll do the right thing, First check the pockets for spare change, Second find my pack and take whatever you want, then walk out and call the authorities for removal. I am not telling anyone to solo Im just answering...
"Alot of committed climbers do it at some point. Alot of people say there is a death wish involved. General concensus?"
Besides just think of the stories you can tell....he was still breathing and his last words were..or the smell was so bad that...his legs were wraped around his neck...or just say what a traumatic and shocking experience it was.
"I know MY climbing day would be thoroughly ruined by wandering up to the base of a climb and finding the two dimensional remnants of a would-be free soloist. Bleah!"
Sorry if it ruined your day but its just one day. I think its inconsiderate of would-be climbers like you not to be willing to give up one day to see to it that a fellow climber is taken care of after a fatal accident!
Dont forget, someday far far far away in your climbing carreer. YOU may find that YOU are soloing something for whatever reason.
"Nah"
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-19 09:00 ]
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jsm280
Jul 19, 2001, 5:29 PM
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If you would have asked me to free solo last year I would have laughed and said no way.
I free soloed a 5-6 about a 45 ft pitch a few weeks ago and did not feel any danger. I now know where it starts. The stronger your are the higher the solo you feel solid on.
I admit I would not solo anything I have never climed several times before or is anywhere near my limit. I also have to be in a certain frame of mind...
Be safe... Know and understand your limits and ALL posible outcomes.
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 1:08 AM
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A word to the wise...... The price of a slip is death or worse, tread very carefully my friend.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-19 18:10 ]
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 5:29 AM
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Its not the death part that bothers me its the worse than death senario thats truely frightening to me. To lay at the bottom of some rock somewhere with a broken neck and not be able to stop the vultures from pecking out your eyes, youch thats gotta hurt!
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kriso9tails
Jul 20, 2001, 5:39 AM
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At least at eighty feet you're probably gonna die if you bail. If it were me and I fell, I would try to go down head first so that there was no chance of becomming a quadraplegic (seriously).
Again, I've fallen before on easy climbs because of breaking holds, rain, a wasp flying up my shorts. What if I were free soloing? Why risk it?
If you fall free solo, what do you yell, rock, rope, or comming down get the hell out of my...( I'm assuming you would hit the ground before finishing).
"If you ever fall off the CN Tower, just go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will try to catch you because, hey, free dummy. "
"If you go parachuting, and your parachute doesn't open, and you friends are all watching you fall, I think a funny gag would be to pretend you were swimming."
Quotes: Jack Handy, SNL
[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-19 22:46 ]
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 5:42 AM
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Dont forget to scream on the way down!!!!!!!
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 5:45 AM
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Im not concidering it anytime soon, for sure but if your gonna climb without ropes you better think about what it would be like!
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 6:05 AM
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If you just have somekind of cartoon picture in your head that youll just land on your feet or jump to a tree or even that the death would be quick your not in reality. Just think about it, in two hundred feet your probably traveling over seventy or eighty miles per hour. Imagine hitting a solid surface at that speed, not a pretty picture. You wouldnt survive most likely but you may live for a time afterwards, maby a long time. Its not a thought that is very comfortable but it is reality.
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 6:07 AM
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This is a very sticky subject but we may as well carry it out to its conclusion.
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kriso9tails
Jul 20, 2001, 6:13 AM
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People have lived with out serious injury from such hights, but the odds against are too high for my computer to calculate.
People have also lived and spent the rest of their miserable lives in a hospital, never ever mving freely again. That tends to make it hard to send that 514d project.
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 6:28 AM
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We each decide for ourselves and have to live with the consiquences of our decisions. Its a personal choice for each person is alittle different and nobody has the right to make it for us. Im tired of being "protected" and told that something is dangerous and that Im not allowed. For gods sake Im over twentyone years old and can make my own damn decision. Thats all.
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kriso9tails
Jul 20, 2001, 6:44 AM
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That's not all. Crags can be shut down because of negligent climbers. If a private landowner allows climbing on his property, how is that person going to feel after a death. Do you think conservation authorities look well on climbers after a needless death?
If you're over 21 that gives you the right to drink, but does it give you the right to drive drunk? You are not just hurting yourself if something happens (in fact if you're dead you won't hurt at all) you're hurting the sport and it's reputation.
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 7:38 AM
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Here we go with the death thing again.
Quote:Do you think conservation authorities look well on climbers after a needless death?
I have yet to see a climbers death that was needed, your starting to sound like Oprah. IV had enough.
AND NOW THAT YOU HAVE A FULL UNDERSTANDING OF THE DANGERS INVOLVED MABY YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION IN THE MATTER. Wich is what I demand for myself!
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-20 10:18 ]
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kriso9tails
Jul 20, 2001, 5:12 PM
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needless death -- Some accidents are tragic but unavoidable. Others were completely avoidable, and thus they die needlessly.
No to flog a dead hoarse here. If this were Europe Kagunkie, I would completely agree, but it's not Europe that I'm talking about. They could arrest you for free soloing if they wanted to. And again, if everybody did it, or even just a large number of people, there would definitely be a dramatic in crease in
climbing related deaths and injuries. Crags would be either shut down or over regulated. Make decisions for yourself, fine, but make decisions for everyone else, not nice.
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kagunkie
Jul 20, 2001, 5:25 PM
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Quote:Make decisions for yourself, fine, but make decisions for everyone else, not nice.
I havnt been making any decisions for anyone other than myself and I like it that way. What I dont like is some kid half my age and with not even one tenth my climbing experience pushing his Oprahized attitudes on me. Get off my back.
Quote:Some accidents are tragic but unavoidable
Oh yea there is a way to avoid all climbing accidents. STAY OFF THE ROCK! They are ALL avoidable. If you want to be safe from everything get into a padded cell and stay there.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-20 10:38 ]
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kriso9tails
Jul 20, 2001, 5:54 PM
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This is going nowhere, so I'll agree to disagree.
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jsm280
Jul 24, 2001, 10:26 PM
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I don't wear my seatbelt because of the law, but the safety it provides for me.
I climb with ropes not to keep climbs open for others, but to keep myself alive.
With everything I do in this life I assume some risk, I DO NOT free solo for anyone other than myself and I know every risk and believe me when I say "I do not want to die" If I die I want to die with love.....
If I get stung on a climb I will keep my cool and down climb... or finish it if I am closer to that. If I grab a loose flake or a hold breaks I hope to have a good hold with my other hand/foot or both and catch myself. Once again I understand all risk and that is part of bieng mature.
If I do die and my family sues I will haunt them to their death. It is my decision and I should be held accountable.
I never brag about a free solo because I don't want the young biner carriers to think it's the next new X Game catogory..... Then those guys will be free soloing just because it means they are crazy/ over the edge/ pushing the limits.... Those are the guys who get things shut down.
Never climb where you may risk injury to someone else. Don't help the stupid be stupid.
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climber1
Jul 25, 2001, 5:18 AM
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it's not the fall, it's the landing
[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-25 11:12 ]
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brenna
Jul 26, 2001, 11:29 PM
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I never want to climb anything that would make it so I could never climb again. I associate free soloing with death for me- (same thing with A4+ - A5's) probably because I suck. But for me, just leading can be scary enough - I don't need the chance of death to be higher than it already is. I'd rather just redpoint.
ps. Key words in this post: For me
[ This Message was edited by: brenna on 2001-07-26 16:40 ]
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talons05
Aug 28, 2001, 11:38 PM
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Soloing is not cool. Soloing will not make you a better climber. Soloing is not intelligent. Soloing will not make you live longer.
This is your brain:
This is your brain on FS:
Any Questions?
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jds100
Aug 28, 2001, 11:57 PM
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Make sure you tell that to Peter Croft when you see him. He's actually a very classy guy, and I don't think he would prsume that his ethics were absolute.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-08-28 23:07 ]
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jds100
Aug 29, 2001, 12:06 AM
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KrisO: I've never heard of a lawsuit against a climber who died, or who free soloed on public or private land. There are plenty of laws a climber MIGHT be breaking by climbing on a particular public or private land, but that would have nothing to do with free soloing.
And a climber who gets hurt, or a family of a dead climber, cannot sue a public or private landowner, either. The legal risks are assumed by the climber, the same as the legal risks are assumed by hunters on public and private lands.
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talons05
Aug 29, 2001, 12:14 AM
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Are you a friend of Mr. Croft's? I'm sorry. Is it arrogance to realize the fallacy of believing that one has reached perfection and cannot make a mistake (which, in this case, equals death)?
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jds100
Aug 29, 2001, 12:38 AM
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It most certainly is arrogance to believe that; I agree. I don't think Peter Croft believes that (I refer to him from reading quite a bit of what he has written, a lot of which is on free-soloing because of his participation in it.) Maybe some of the dead free soloers did have that arrogance.
I just don't like the idea that there is an absolute ethic to which everyone must unquestioningly adhere.
Sort of contradictory to my own objection, though, is that I think it was selfish of Dan Osman to do what he did (I know he wasn't, at the time of his death, free-soloing, but what he was doing is just an extension of the same spectrum of activity). I think if a climber is free of obligations (family being the big one), then he or she can exercise more self-defined (selfish?) beliefs of "freedom". But it pretty much pisses me off that he was careless -relative to the normal standard of climbing safety checks- with the livelihood that helped support his daughter, and wife (or girlfriend?).
So, for me, it comes down to a question of responsible choice. I know I am responsible for and/or to other people, so I'm not going to be so careless about risking death or permanent disability. I'm not going to automatically say that all free-soloers are wrong for free-soloing, but if I know 'em, and they're being irresponsible with respect to their families, then they will hear it from me. (Actually, now that I think about it, I did jump some guy's s--- about it once.)
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talons05
Aug 29, 2001, 12:47 AM
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Good point.
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jds100
Aug 29, 2001, 9:19 PM
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Scout: technically, if you're climbing -up or down- a route that is rated 5.something, you are free soloing. However, there is a wide variation from area to area in how routes are rated, especially the easy rattings. In my area of Missouri and Illinois, for example, there is an area with climbs rated, say 5.6, that MIGHT be 5.2 elsewhere in Missouri and Illinois. This particular area is almost below the radar for "serious" climbers, so there has been no real effort to coordinate ratings with other destinations. So, technically you are free soloing, but others might say you're scrambling over a grade 4 hillside.
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jds100
Aug 31, 2001, 4:47 AM
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Yup.
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beta
Oct 23, 2001, 3:08 AM
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Most people who free solo are climbing at a level that they are comfortable with during roped climbing. If they are free soloing at a level higher than that then they are not being realistic. The variables involved are random and natural and may result in injury or death. Do I have a right to deny you the experience of trying????? I don't think so. However, If your attempt and/or failure results in me being denied the opportunity to climb, any particular area,(roped or not), I'm probably gonna be upset.
Whats the saying?, there are old climbers and bold climbers but no old, bold climbers.
Use good judgement, I want to be able to talk to you over the next 20 years, (on this forum, or at a more personal level don't take that away from me. Climbing isn't about ego, I'm better than so and so because I,........
Jut my .02 worth.
Jeff
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pollux
Oct 23, 2001, 3:42 AM
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I was driving past a gorge and it looked like a good place to climb, i had my gear with me so I climbed, I guess the biggest thing is only climb as high as you want to fall, and don't make moves that make you feel uncomfortable. If your 40 ft up and there is a questionable hold and you don't feel comfortable, don't continue on. Go back down. Feeling uncomfortable with a grip and having no protection just adds to the problem. You end up mentally killing yourself.
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camhead
Oct 23, 2001, 5:18 AM
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I can understand the mental and spiritual rush that one gets free soloing- the one 5.8 crack that I freed was one of the highlights of stupid climbing things that I've done. However, I still believe that free soloing is foolish, and it baffles me as to why so many do it.
I do quite a bit of whitewater rafting as well, and I know of NOBODY that runs class Vs without a life jacket for a "bigger rush". Comprende?
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crackwhore
Nov 19, 2001, 3:54 AM
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i'm gonna quote don reid on this one cuz i couldn't say it better myself
these numbers are from yosar and are only inclusive of the valley proper from 1970 through 1990 but i'm sure the ratios would be consistent anywhere.
"at least one true free soloer has been killed and one, critically hurt..."
"fifty one climbers died from traumatic injuries in that period. a dozen more, critically hurt..."
sounds to me like the probability theory doesen't hold much water...
peter puts in more miles than anyone and doesen't fall off.
the reason you dont understand and, more importantly, the reason you dont do is because the rock is a series of moves or a number to be conquered .
when you reach symbiosis then all talk will stop.
namaste
(miss you derek)
[ This Message was edited by: crackwhore on 2001-11-18 19:58 ]
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eclarke98
Nov 19, 2001, 5:46 AM
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Everyone has a point up to which they are willing to risk their own saftey, for some it's much lower that others and of course the people who are willing to risk just about anything, well, they probably won't be around for very long. I don't think free soloing is a good idea because it's nearly impossible to do safely.
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wachy
Nov 19, 2001, 5:57 AM
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Crackwhore, I'm not sure what you're trying to say with those numbers... Are you trying to prove that free soloing is safe? Those numbers don't say anything. If there are less free solo deaths/injuries in a given period than regular climbing, that's because there are also a WHOLE LOT LESS free soloers.
I bet the percentage of people that get hurt is a lot higher in the freesolo community than the TR/lead community.
When you freesolo, you're going to climb easier climbs. You're also going to fall less. But the falls are going to be a lot more serious.
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crackwhore
Nov 19, 2001, 7:44 AM
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forgive me for dropping numbers.
it seems my true point has eluded you.
safety is an illusion gearheads use to justify their addiction to material security
can you say quantum leap?
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wachy
Nov 19, 2001, 8:20 AM
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"forgive me for dropping numbers.
it seems my true point has eluded you.
safety is an illusion gearheads use to justify their addiction to material security
can you say quantum leap? "
ok, you're not helping me understand your true point by being pretty vague and referencing a TV show...
Safety isn't an illusion, I really don't know what you're talking about. There's a big difference in safety between top roping and freesoloing.
Am I addicted to material security? Well, I guess so, whatever that means. I like rope catching me when I fall, it feels really good. I guess that makes me a gearhead-- again, not quite sure what that means though.
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crackwhore
Nov 19, 2001, 9:10 AM
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im not sure what TV show you are referring to.
please understand
im not trying to be antagonistic.
let me spell it out for you...
i was dropping science to illustrate the transition ones mind makes when crossing the barrier of fear, whether it be fear of injury, separation, or death.
i believe most (but not all) soloists go through this expansion.
it becomes much easier to focus and climb freely when all encumberances are removed.
a spiritual connection with stone
a gravitational sharing of electrons
a quantum leap
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wachy
Nov 19, 2001, 9:57 AM
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have you really never heard of the show "Quantum Leap?" It starred Scott Bacula, and was pretty interesting.
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ratstar
Nov 19, 2001, 4:06 PM
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I have only done it once. On U-Bend wall. Which at the top is probly 40 feet. But I didnt have to downclimb cause the other side is hikable.
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tristero
Nov 19, 2001, 6:58 PM
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I value my life more than anything. I get to experience rushes and other feelings because I'm alive. Free Soloing is never a gamble I'm willing to take.
Here's an analogy to show how ludicrous soling is:
A 12a climber try to scend a 12a tied in with a piece of yarn.
Rockcliming is dangerous enough.
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mountainrat
Nov 27, 2001, 12:55 PM
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Maybe free soloing helps us to subconsciously thwart our own mortality... when I think of how I feel before I satrt a free solo, I feel like I'm about to steal something (I am not a thief or a klepto, but that is the truth). I find the temptation almost irresistable then; and when I've finished, I feel like I've gotten away with something. But DURING the free... I am so dialed in, so wired to the rock, that I think I get out of myself for those minutes... which is always a relief. There, that's it; free soloing is a TRANSCENDENTAL experience. I am not crazy...
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mnutz
Nov 28, 2001, 7:57 AM
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Some climbs I just prefer to free solo. Easy ones of course. I would never do it anywhere near my limit. There is this beautiful 60 ft 5.4 hand jam crack, I always solo it. It's usually the warm-up climb for my harder roped stuff. Just a beautiful crack.
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saltspringer
Nov 28, 2001, 8:22 AM
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to me, free soloing is all about personal choice & comfort level...i don't think less of anyone who doesn't free solo or more of anyone who does: to each their own.
personally, i don't solo because i can't justify the risk of one mistake, big pancake!
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climb512
Nov 29, 2001, 6:27 PM
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i was in total awe, a few weeks ago we were in the gunks waiting at the first belay, on madam g's wulst. there was a bunch of climbers from germany. on i believe, it was teton not sure though. one of them with a wild afro goes and solos madam g. climbs up and past us. to the 2, 70 year old men who were at the hanging belay. they are screaming at this kid, like old men do, about how he was going to tangle his rope in theirs. the kid looked over at them and said not to worry i have no rope and went up and past them. it was pretty humerous. from what we heard he had soloed several routes including modern times.
[ This Message was edited by: climb512 on 2001-11-29 11:31 ]
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graniteboy
Dec 11, 2001, 12:13 AM
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Soloing is Holy.
If you don't do it, you have no understanding of it. So pipe down and learn how to climb.
If you think you should do it; make sure that you've been climbing at least ten years. Anything less than that, and you don't know enough about yourself to be soloing.
Soloing can kill you. But if you know yourself and your environment, it won't happen. If you think you know yourself and your environment, but don't yet, you're gonna get nailed. And no; it isn't a "death wish" game, at least for me. It's a "life wish" game.
[ This Message was edited by: graniteboy on 2001-12-10 18:05 ]
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naturalhigh
Dec 11, 2001, 7:38 AM
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I really like what mountainrat said earlier...
When I look at a route I'm about to free solo, I get really amped and everything starts to rush. Once I start climbing, though, all I think about is the rock and my connection to it. Everything is focused and crystal clear; there are no distractions, and nothing can distract me. It isn't a death wish, but rather a wish for life that I carry with me when I climb. Like other freesoloists, I never free solo routes AT my lead/redpoint level, usually at least two or three grades down from that.
There is a certain satisfaction to freesoloing... you feel more enlightened about life and have a better understanding of yourself and your place in the universe.
I'll continue to freesolo routes when I'm a ripe old man because I WILL NOT FALL. Why? Because that is not an option.
To break out of the sappy talk for a minute, yes I understand the dangers of climbing... wasps fly up your shorts (though I would say that even that wouldn't distract me while freesoloing), you slip, a hold that used to be there on that 5.5 route is now gone, making it a 5.11 crux, or holds break, etc... two months ago I got careless while bouldering and had a rock nearly as big as myself break off in my hands, clipping my leg as I fell. Luckily, I got away with only a dozen or so stitches in my leg, but it certainly has made me a more cautious climber, even when "just" bouldering. There are risks in everything, but I would maintain that I have a greater risk dying in a car accident on my way to the crags than I do free-soloing that 5.7 lieback.
Just my two cents.
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fireclimber
Dec 15, 2001, 2:01 AM
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I only solo climbed once and it was AWESOME I will do it again but I will keep the grade low and look for a walk off next time.
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tacoman
Dec 30, 2001, 3:22 AM
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everyone needs to do it at least once as for me i have no problem with it and solo often.
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blimpdriver
Dec 30, 2001, 3:26 AM
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I like to Solo. Its very peaceful and relaxing. You are by yourself and can basically do what you want. The whole GRAVITY thing is what you need to be careful of. Respect it.
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conkdg
Jan 8, 2002, 5:18 AM
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Right on dlman,
If you solo, you definately know why you, and others who solo do it.
If you are not a soloist, and think you should criticize those who do, soloing is most likely not something you should try.
For me, doing solo should be about being completely within yourself. Not in a conceted, arrogant way, but in a focused, calm, precise way. Maybe some people solo to be macho, maybe those are the people who get hurt.
My point is... if there is any point here....
is that rock climbing is about whatever an individual wants it to be about, you don;t have to lead trad, you don't have to sport climb, you don't have to boulder, you odn't have to solo....
But we do, and all of us love it... I hope
Cheers
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paintinhaler
Jan 8, 2002, 5:24 AM
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what the heck?
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graniteboy
Jan 11, 2002, 7:13 AM
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Regarding paranoid delusions of climbing areas getting closed due to soloists;
Actually, as someone stated above, soloists are probably safer than most climbers using gear, because soloists are, by and large, much better climbers, and much more experienced.
I can't begin to tell you abt how many bumbly pegs I've seen (and rescued) who were all racked up with enough gear to climb bigwalls in Baffin, but they were still lacking judgement, and they had bad accidents.
In 30 years in this game, I know only one soloist who died, or even had an accident. See you on the other side, Derrick, but don't wait up for me. It's gonna be a long while yet, youf...
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indiesummit
Jan 28, 2002, 8:26 PM
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I doubt I've ever exerience anything as real as soloing -- I tend to do it more on slabs and cracks because I feel more compfortable, which highlights what a lot of people have said: You Must Be Within Your Limits. Just yesterday I was out on a solo-TR setup, and pulling my rope, jammed it in a crack halfway up the crag. Now, had the rock I had to cover been more difficult, I would've packed my gear and left the bastard. But, as it was, I grabbed my shoes and helmet (ah, sweet delusions) and soloed some easy stuff to get my rope back. No prob.
I've also scared myself silly on some stuff Ishouldn't have been on...stupid...but also the razor's edge of reality threatening to split you down the middle. And despite the breaking the credo, I still regard it as a special moment in my life. If you're soloing, it should be for a personal reason -- something no one else can even touch or maybe define. It can be anything -- ego, fear, love -- it just better be your own.
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elcapbuzz
Jan 29, 2002, 8:06 AM
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Nice thread beerandblood.
Yes, I free solo. A lot. I'm not going into why or if I have a death wish or not, but I will say I have the same views about it as pinscar.
Just last week at Joshua Tree, I started up the classic Double Cross. Unroped. Two jar heads were at the base of the route, racking up. I politely asked if I could jump ahead. One of them rudely said, "Yeah, as long as you don't fall on me". I ignored him. I shut everything out in the world except my direct action and reation of the moment. I was fluently climbing and just at the crux I hear, "What a dumb ass". OK, I can't get mad. I again shut out this negativity of someone who is obviously "NEW". I get to the top and started to down climb Double Start. When I got to the base I completely ignored them, I wasn't going to let them affect my pure joy of what I love. Sometime later I came around to the same face to solo Dogleg. The two jar heads were bailing from the crux. The leader put in a number 7, bd nut and lowered off. He cleaned every piece beneath him. He didn't know it but he was in a much more dangeous situtation than I put myself in. He was depending his life on one piece of pro, and sizing those two up, I would hate to see what that nut looked like. Now who's the dumb ass!!!
Oh, and ads200. Why does Dano's death piss you off. Did you have to clean up his body. Did you know him. Well, I did. I'm not saying I agree with how far he was pushing the limit. I just think you should be the last one to be mad about his death.
Dano lives.
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mauta
Jan 29, 2002, 12:38 PM
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FREE SOLOING IS A SOPHISTICATED WAY OF COMMITING SUICIDE !!!!!!!!
Safe climbing is the ONLY acceptable way of climbing.
JUAN
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dirtclod
Jan 29, 2002, 9:24 PM
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In Free Soloing it is not just the risk that you are personally willing to take that must be considered. The impact that your death, or serious injury would have on those around you must also be factored in. How many of us have so little going on in our lives that no one would care if we inadvertently checked out. In my case, my wife might be able to use the opportunity of my death to upgrade her marital status, but I don’t think that anyone could replace my role to my 11 year old son.
We all leave a wake of relationships as we move through life. If we are responsible with our lives we will consider what the consequences of our actions will have on others.
I’m not advocating one way or the other, but it seems logical to me to that to remember that we don’t live our lives in a vacuum.
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crux_clipper
Jan 30, 2002, 3:37 AM
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I've free soloed the stairs out the back before. THAT was freaky!!
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crux_clipper
Jan 30, 2002, 3:40 AM
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But seriously, if you want to climb without the hassel of ropes, go bouldering. If you want to climb high, lead it. But if you must free solo, just one word of advice.... Don't tell your parents, They'll probably have your balls on a platter. I know mine would.
Which is why i won't ever free solo.
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elcapbuzz
Jan 30, 2002, 5:28 AM
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion about free soloing.
I can assure you one thing-
It is NOT a glorified way to commit suicide.
Give me a break. If you really did want to kill yourself, do you think you would actually start free soloing and then when it got hard, simply let go. I don't think so. You would hold on like hell to survive.
In the many years I have been free soloing I have never felt like I was going to fall, or was in a dangerous situation.
I don't want to die. I would NEVER want my family to lose me. I DO NOT have an ego. I've down climbed many routes because I didn't feel 100%.
Most of the times I downclimbed, it was because some "nay sayer" (negative person) came to the base and started throwing their bad energy around. I've heard many, many comments while up on the vertical that I would have been happy, NOT to have heard.
Yes, you should always consider what the effect of your actions will be. To those around you, to your family and loved ones and those who admire you.
I think this should also apply to the yahoo who comes walking up to the base and starts spewing crap at you because he/she doesn't think you should be up there with out a rope.
Everyone is an individual. Just becuase it's safe for one person...doesn't mean it's safe for everyone.
Like I said, I do it...but don't recommend it.
Climb Safe, consider your actions. Ammon.
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kaptk
Jan 30, 2002, 9:10 AM
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I have free soloed before and I have enjoyed it greatly. I don't think it is a deathwish. The times I have done it were areas where roping up was not an option. The most exciting time was when I climbed up a 25-30 foot face/crack inside of a cave and squeezed through a hole at the top. I was by myself. Falling was not an option. I looked at the rock and was sure that I could make it up safely. I was surprised when I went through the first hole at the top. I was in a small area that I could only get out of by climbing up through a smaller hole. The feeling that I had when I emerged from the top of the cave can't be put into words.
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crackaddict
Feb 9, 2002, 5:25 AM
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ehhhh! Check it out Bevis. Thier like soloing or something. Soloing's cool!
Ya ya soloers kick ass!
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graniteboy
Feb 9, 2002, 5:38 AM
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Here's a good story about one of those "suicidal" freesoloists. Yabo kept pretending that he was gonna die soloing, to get attention. and when he finally killed himself, guess what? he used a gun. Not the holy act of climbing. Please get off the "soloists are suicidal" crap. You obviously don't know the first thing about the art form known as soloing. And let this forum topic sink into well deserved obscurity.
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elcapbuzz
Feb 9, 2002, 5:50 AM
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Thank you, Graniteboy!!!
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mountainhardon
Feb 14, 2002, 5:55 AM
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Dude, I do TONS of free soloing. Only, like, I only do it when I am less than 15 feet from the ground, and there is a bouldering pad underneath me. I know a lot o people that do this, what's the big deal.
But that dude with the meanass skullet, he's CRAZY.
[ This Message was edited by: mountainhardon on 2002-02-13 22:19 ]
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tylerphillips
Mar 3, 2002, 11:43 PM
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Free soloing is the best style in which to truly FREE CLIMB. To the people who say it's a death wish they just haven't experienced that feelin of being in complete control and feeling great! So next time someone climbs past you without a rope know he/she is way more badass than you.
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apollodorus
Mar 3, 2002, 11:54 PM
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Free soloing is gnarly, very tough mentally. I can lead fairly hard stuff, even if it's run out, but F.S. creeps me out. The hardest I've ever done is about 5.6 or 5.7, and true to form, you get up there and it's some sort of weird, greasy, thin stemming schnitt in a flared corner and not a nice hand crack.
But, hey. Free soloing the regular route on Cathedral Peak in the Sierras was cool. Free soloing the Bishop's Balcony first pitch in the rain to solo aid the roof was not.
I don't do it anymore, but sometimes on "4th" class approaches you STILL wind up with that "4.12d" section, which is about the same as 5.7.
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addiroids
Mar 4, 2002, 12:24 AM
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Climbing vertical faces of rock by the very definition is not safe. That's why we wedge these little pieces of metal into the cracks. Soloists just make it easier because they don't have to place gear. Thanks for your gumby point of view troll, senor.
TRADitionally yours,
Addiroids
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noal
Mar 4, 2002, 3:22 AM
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You know whats funny....lol We had this post a few days ago...and it was talking about all these names we make up for these newbie kids who aren't very knowledgable climbers...lol And Oh were some of you ragging on these stupid, no brained, danger to the sport kids...Yeah, they get out their not knowing how to use their gear..and end up dying...which puts a bad light on climbing! lol...yeah these kids sure do need ragged on for their stupidity....
Oh, but then I thought of something funnier...you ready...here it is...the fact that I'm sure at one time or another we've all gone free soloing on some pretty easy routes, because after a while you lose the fear that adds intensity because you start trusting the rope or putting it out of your mind...wait thats not the funny part...Oh yeah...the funny thing was that just down the door from the gumby smash, we're raving about how awesome free soloing is, pretending that we could ever actually be in control of the world, the masters of the universe, and taunt death in the face...rageing about how it's the most free way of experiencing climbing, and that if your not doing it, just realize that your not a bad A%# climber.
I formally apologise for the name calling criticism...but request that we direct it to where it's deserved...from now on a the word
"Stupid guy you shouldn't hang around" should be used to describe the people raving about free-soloing or even endorsing it.
I'm not getting on people who free-solo, I don't have any right too...but I have ever right in the universe to call those who would encourage others to be stupid and do things they're not prepaired for, by raving about how cool, a totally (and if you say it isn't your too stupid to climb and need to stop)unsafe thing is to do...If you've ever used the words bumbly, gumby, or unsafe climber...then you don't need to be talking about your free-soloing experiences, unless it's to discourage the whole act!
[ This Message was edited by: noal on 2002-03-03 19:24 ]
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noal
Mar 4, 2002, 3:40 AM
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Please note (to avoid rambling comments on this thread) the above comment basicly means...free soloing is an ethical action for an experienced climber to decide on commiting too! But for them to talk about it like it's floating in the clouds being truly free, and being the essence of pure climbing, is a totally un-ethical thing too do...especially on a web site were siked up teens go to, possing to be awesome experienced climbers just for acceptince by people who are athletes of a sport they're amazed by. I think anyone who does should stop and realize some responsibility for the words they say/type out of some pumped up ego climbing attitude.
If you choose to free climb...keep it too yourself...wanna talk about safety, safety is not incouraging an accident waiting to happen
[ This Message was edited by: noal on 2002-03-04 00:31 ]
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crap
Mar 4, 2002, 4:14 AM
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Free soloing has always been a spiritual experience for me that I do not and could not plan for. I hope more climbers can mature enough spiritualy to understand it.
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ipon
Mar 4, 2002, 10:44 AM
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Spirit...
I'm in a incredibly nice sea cliffs spot million miles away from my climber friends. It's the end of my trip (3 hard weeks at work) and I've check the web for climbing assistance. Nothing. I hope to find someone here but not a single rope around... Chinese fishermen are fishing, that's it.
After climbing traverses the whole morning, I look at all those nice "easy" routes (=lot lower than my max level)...
Hell what can I do? Sorry, I can't resist...
(hint: check for a trail down!)
[ This Message was edited by: ipon on 2002-03-04 02:47 ]
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climb512
Mar 4, 2002, 11:34 PM
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I think it is neither a death wish nor mastery. It is more for the adreniline junkie. Like putting NOS on my Ninja for the street.
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greatgarbanzo
Mar 5, 2002, 5:11 AM
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I think both mastery wish of death controled by youself knowledge...
does that sentence makes any sence?
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kahuna3602
Mar 5, 2002, 5:34 AM
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it's a matter of do the benefits of the risk outweigh the consequences of failure. If you are truely "free" and have no resposibilities to anyone or anything then the adrenaline fix may be worth it. But if it's a response to being bored with your current level of risk what will the outcome be? As you push your level higher and higher the can only be one, inevitable outcome.
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graniteboy
Mar 5, 2002, 7:44 PM
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Yes, yes, yes.
It's TRUE that you should listen to all the NAYSAYERSon this site who have no extensive practical experience in soloing. They are absolutely correct.
Soloing is a terribly dangerous, irresponsible, immature thing to do, and none of you should do it, Ever.
In FACT, Nobodyshould solo at ALL. Except, of course, ME.. There, I've SAID it. Now head on back to your Barca-Loungers, where it's safe. Cause this thread is dreadfully boring, and I'm gonna head out and do a littleSOLOING.
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iclimbtoo
Mar 5, 2002, 8:41 PM
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#1, I wish I had the balls to freesolo. #2, I wish I had the balls to tell people who freesolo how insanely stupid and ridiculously perilous it is. #3, refer back to #1.
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crap
Mar 5, 2002, 9:11 PM
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Okay, I don’t think I have the words to explain the spiritual side of soloing but here’s my attempt anyway.
If you can think back to any management or psychology classes you’ve ever had you’ll probably remember something about Maslow’s theory of motivation (or something like that). Basically it has a list of things a person needs in order of importance. At the top of the list are things like food, water, and shelter. At the bottom are things like self-identity and personal relationships. As it becomes easier to acquire the things at the top of the list you become more interested in seeking things at the bottom of the list. Like how Tom Hanks created the Wilson character in Castaway after daily survival became less of a challenge.
When I solo I take that list of important things and turn it upside down. My need to keep gravity from squishing me becomes less important than my need to find my place in the universe and with the deity and/or system of believes I subscribe to. Its basically the same reason why anyone fasts, plays with snakes, walks on coals, or the countless other things people do in religions. It takes a mature person to realize their need to seek such things, and even if a person doesn’t believe in a deity or system of believes they will still seek such things to prove their mastery over their own destiny. Its spiritual even if you don't believe in spirits.
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klymer
Mar 5, 2002, 9:28 PM
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Free soloing is not a good way to make friends...
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rastalizard
Mar 6, 2002, 8:10 AM
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I can't, so I don't.
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loafdog
Mar 6, 2002, 3:46 PM
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Free-soloing is a mastery. it is the hardest and most dangerous style. and any one who does it with out dying earns my respect.
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rocknrone
Mar 6, 2002, 5:38 PM
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John Long climbed 5.12s belayed with a rope around his neck. I haven't seen anyone repeat that one. That takes more balls than soloing.
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achilles
Mar 7, 2002, 9:00 AM
Post #93 of 108
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Free-soloing?
Sometimes you have to, whether you like it or not. If you stay within your limits, you should be fine. Mastery and death wish (I think the educated word is "tanatos" opposite of life wish "libido") combine to propel you on. There is however no room for mistakes and if your mind set is OK then why not?
Rock-a-bye!
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orangeoverhang
Mar 7, 2002, 10:09 PM
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I have done plenty of easy grade soloing over the years and enjoyed it more than many other climbign experiances. The thing I found was I needed to work myslef into it. Starting the day with very easy routes and slowly building confidence. The other thing I find it that I rarely make a plan ahead for a day of soling. I do one short probem in the morning, and if it felt good and I was confident it uselly leads to bigger and harder things. Soloing is something that I would only do at a cliff which consists of quality rock. Places like Arapiles in Australia let you climb amazing walls and cracks with realative safety. Do it for yourself, not others and you will rarely get in trouble.
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ipon
Mar 8, 2002, 11:37 AM
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crap, you've got the right words!
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atg200
Mar 8, 2002, 6:56 PM
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I can't believe the amount of garbage in this thread.
Sometimes soloing is safer! On alpine routes in T-storm country, soloing up the easy parts can save you tons of time, and speed=safety in the mountains. The 12th pitch of a route with 1000 feet of exposure is not the time to learn. Soloing is something you have to practice like anything else.
If you don't like to solo, good for you-don't. Not all types of climbing are for everyone, which is one of the great things about climbing.
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graniteboy
Mar 14, 2002, 4:36 AM
Post #97 of 108
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ATG is right. Lots of garbage. This thread is completely silly.
Again, though; recall the first rule:NOBODY SHOULD SOLO. EVER.
EXCEPT ME. I GET TO SOLO WHENEVER I WANT.
And I get to have FUN doing so...it makes me a HIT with the s.
xoxo
Granite.
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maculated
Mar 14, 2002, 8:13 AM
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Geez. I did a presentation on class today and my teacher asked me about free soloing. (This is all in Spanish, mind you.) I got to thinking about it, and I can see where if you're truly committed, it is both exhilarating and 'pure.' But it seems to me, the some of the art to climbing is in the manipulation of protection.
I keep trying to explain to people why I want to get into trad, and I guess that's the key. I like sport climbing because it's a no brainer and I can really push myself technically, but I feel like I'm missing out on the key part of climbing if I don't master the art of protection. I want to get to that point where, on the thread about trusting pro, I'll trust my pro placements before a bolt in a rock. That's art.
I guess it depends on your take.
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achilles
Mar 14, 2002, 12:01 PM
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Going solo means just what it says.
Its you, alone, solo.
As beerandblood suggested at the beginning of this thread one wonders if this is some kind of death wish. I would say for non-climbers it would certainly seem so. The only response such people often come up with is, IMPOSSIBLE!
Most of us in the climbing community know however that "impossible" is exactly the thing that drives climbing pioneers and adventurers.
So to answer beerandblood, the answer is NO. Its not a death wish, its a calculated, conscious and artful skill that very few of us possess, and that all of us should respect. Someone once said: "if you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!"
Rock-a-bye!
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lostangel
Mar 26, 2002, 1:31 AM
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My feet dont leave the ground unless I am in a harness or just bouldering. Am I chicken.. idunno if you wanna call it that, I think I am just really... careful perhaps is the word
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crackhabit
Apr 1, 2002, 7:07 AM
Post #101 of 108
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for me, the closest i want to get to soloing is boldering. to answer the poll, it is mastery. mastery of mind and body. knowing your limits and staying within them. leading spooks me so soloing is out of the question.
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apollodorus
Apr 1, 2002, 9:36 AM
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Royal Robbins noted, on the topic of free solo climbing, that in a popular climbing area, achievement leads to praise, praise to envy, and envy to people doing things they normally wouldn't.
I've free soloed twice, the first time was Cathedral Peak, to experience soloing (used a rope to protect a short section). The second time was to do a "nothing" 5.5 to get to the Bishop's Balcony to aid solo it on rope. IN THE RAIN. Spooky, scary and a good place to call it quits. I mean, you try free soloing with a pack up a thin/nothing crack when it's wet.
Oh, and one time I free soloed a 5.7/5.8 route in Tuolumne while on "approach". The two guys I was with were hardcore (and still are), and thought nothing of doing it in their tennis shoes. I put my shoes on, and was still pretty wigged out.
Free solo is for harder men than me. I'll leave it to them. If they've got the control and the ability, great. I just don't want to be anywhere near the occasional lapse that ends in disaster.
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graniteboy
Apr 18, 2002, 1:58 AM
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I agree with Appolodorus, Royal Robbins, Maestria, and whoever else.
SOLOING IS SILLY......and you could end up looking like THAT guy. OR Like this one:
Y'all should leave all the soloing, and in fact, all the CLIMBING, to trained professionals. Especially to ME. There's just too much room for ego and error.
I, On THE OTHER HAND, have no ego, now that My LOBOTOMIZED 3rd Personality has taken Over, and soloing for him (my 3rd personality) is COOL, without being praiseworthy, etc, as ROYAL STATED.
ON the other hand, have you SEEN the tacky CLOTHES that guy designs? (RoyalRobbins...)
THEY SUCK. SO I make the motion that any Pointers From old R.R. be stricken from the RECORD.............
[ This Message was edited by: graniteboy on 2002-04-17 19:00 ]
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phil_nev
Apr 18, 2002, 2:17 AM
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An aussie guy named James Scarborough (??SPELLING??) soloed a 5.13d. I duno about you giys, but no matter how solid i felt, on a climb like that, anything can happen... it's not worth the risk, just tie into the bloddy rope.....
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crap
Apr 18, 2002, 2:44 AM
Post #105 of 108
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Registered: Jan 25, 2002
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My partner took a 15 foot fall and hit the deck on aid gear when his weak nut placement failed over two hooks placements. I was belaying him and almost wet myself when he did it. He got up and started again, no problem. Later that day I free soloed a 5.6 and he nearly wet himself. What gives?
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bigwalling
Apr 18, 2002, 3:12 AM
Post #106 of 108
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Registered: Dec 29, 2001
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I've hit the ground twice from 30 feet. One was out of a tree and the other climbing. The tree was crazy though. It was 4" in diamater and was cracking while i climbed it. Then I jump 6' into another tree and that tree snapped and boy did hitting the ground hurt.
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joeforte
Oct 25, 2006, 6:49 AM
Post #107 of 108
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Registered: May 9, 2005
Posts: 1093
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:wink: Mmmm Solo Onsites :wink:
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heiko
Oct 25, 2006, 8:42 AM
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Posts: 1505
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congrats, you've just revived a thread that has been dead for over 4 years with a pretty uninformative statement. :roll:
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