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blueeyedclimber
Nov 7, 2003, 2:12 PM
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First, this is not an elitist thread. I can say that because I am NOT in that category. I think it's close (I hope), I can taste it. I want to know for those of you who climb at that level, what made the difference in getting there and more specifically do you train for it aside from just climbing. I got to be honest, I just want to climb, I don't want to train. Is that enough to get to that level? I try to really improve my climbing by reading, watching other people climb, but mostly just trying a variety of different climbs at all different levels, but spending most of my time at my limit or slightly above.
Please don't tell me what level you do climb at. I am assuming that if you respond that you are at that level.
thanks, Josh
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rmiller
Nov 7, 2003, 2:36 PM
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Training helps, but is NOT a necessity! IMHO, the biggest factor is your desire and attitude. A go for it attitude without a fear of falling will take you a long way (I don't mean an unsafe go for it attitude). Although that helps in some circumstances. :D If you have a gym, go climb two times a week in doors. It is training, but really it is just climbing on plastic. Have fun with indoor climbing. Too many people rag on gyms, but if you make it a fun, social place, the climbing is great! Bouldering really helped me break into the upper range. It helped my body learn how to power through difficult cruxes to rest spots, which is a big plus on 12's.
Good luck. Oh, for the first few 12's, pick a route that caters to your strengths. Good luck.
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junnos
Nov 7, 2003, 2:40 PM
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A very important thing is consistancy. Be consistant in every grade on every type of rock. For instance, say your local crag is ummm, the "New" and you can climb 5.11 there. Then you take a trip to let's say Smith Rock and are haveing trouble with the 10's, big time. Are you a 5.11 climber? No. See what I'm getting at here?
Another thing is fear and (not sure of the right word to use here). Basically don't be intimidated (That's it!) by a number or the way a route looks. I was scared to death of 12's once. I never got on one, just real intimidated, you know? Then my bud threw me on one and I got it the next day, having a blast in the process. They now go down easily and I bumped my trad up to them as well. If the grade is a LOT harder then you think you are capable of, get on the route and check it out (with an open mind). By that I mean, get on it, hang at each bolt if you have too. Do the moves, feel the holds, try new teqnique. Basically, just get on it to feel what that grade is like, you may surprise yourself.
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rockprodigy
Nov 7, 2003, 2:48 PM
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I had to train to initially break into the 12's but after a few years at that level, I can do 'em pretty much off the couch. The training helped me break through the initial mental barrier, helped me "believe" I could do it.
I don't think you need to train, but you need to climb in a gym. Your muscles don't get a very good workout on rock. There is too much standing around, too much resting, too many other factors that keep you from really pushing your muscles. You need to boulder in the gym by yourself. It wouldn't hurt to read a book about training so you would know what to work on in the gym, but if you do that, you might get too good, and then you'll be asking us how to break into 13's.
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 7, 2003, 3:03 PM
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In reply to: I had to train to initially break into the 12's but after a few years at that level, I can do 'em pretty much off the couch. The training helped me break through the initial mental barrier, helped me "believe" I could do it. I don't think you need to train, but you need to climb in a gym. Your muscles don't get a very good workout on rock. There is too much standing around, too much resting, too many other factors that keep you from really pushing your muscles. You need to boulder in the gym by yourself. It wouldn't hurt to read a book about training so you would know what to work on in the gym, but if you do that, you might get too good, and then you'll be asking us how to break into 13's.
During the cold months here in New England I climb a lot in the gym and try to mix it up between tr, bouldering, and their sport routes. I don't really do anything aside from climb (ie. plyometrics, yoga, etc.) but maybe I should. I tend to set a lot of goals and so far I have hit every one before I said I would, so maybe in a few months i will be asking about the 13's. Wouldn't that be sweet.
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fracture
Nov 7, 2003, 3:22 PM
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Watch stronger climbers. Especially watch where they put their feet. Even on easier routes, you'll probably notice them doing some moves differently. Think about why (does it put their body in a better position? take more weight somehow? etc). Ask questions about technique. You probably don't need to train strength to reach 12 if you focus on good technique.
For working your first 12, get maximal beta for the route from someone near your height, and pick a route which suits your strengths (e.g. maybe you need to work on endurance, so pick a one-move wonder or a route with plenty of good rests; or maybe power is your problem, so stick with something overhung with easier moves but probably no good rests and more sustained).
The mental aspect is big too. Don't be worrying about how hard it will be or such. Think about how it is possible, then just get on the rock and do it. Get something out of the effort even if you don't send.
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neomagi
Nov 7, 2003, 3:42 PM
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i am in agreement with everyone else, training helps, but isn t necessary. it will help cut down the time it takes, but ultimately, the best training for climbing is still climbing.
i would suggest that you round out your climbing. increase your technique, that always helps, footwork is key. but also increase your flexability, that is where yoga might help you. if not, yoga, at least 10 minutes of stretching before climbing, and another 15 - 20 after. the obvious strenght, hard boldering & hangboards can be great training. if you want to get on the fast track, do tons of core strength. if you have a super strong core, you will break into 12's and 13's much more easily.
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climbingbum
Nov 7, 2003, 3:56 PM
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I'm with "fracture" on this one. Watching a strong climber is one of the most efficient exercises that I have ever done. It's motivating to the point where you can visualize the movements and your anxious to get the opportunity to work the moves. For example, we were getting worked on a route at the ORG, one of our partners sent it right away. I always believed strength got you up hard routes. The kicker here is that she couldn't do one chinup but here she is sending 12's. On a highly technical route, I feel footwork and technique can push you into the 12's long before training will.
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fredrogers
Nov 7, 2003, 5:15 PM
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I'm not a big fan of Eric Horst's training books but I think they are very good for moving into the 5.12 range. I especially like the idea of building up a pyramid of routes. Get a good base of 11a/b's (try to onsight some) and a few 11c/d's
My main improvements were caused by
-committing to climbing 3-4 days per week with good rests between sessions. Be willing to change that schedule depending on how tired you feel. My normal schedule is Sat, Sun, Tues, Thurs (best for bouldering) OR Sat, Sun, Tues, Wed (best for routes). Take at least 1-2 weeks off for every 10 weeks of climbing.
-climb outside as much as possible possibly cheating out on work in order to do so in the middle of the week. Learn how to climb in the cold and find partners that will join you on those grey days where everyone else goes inside. But also don't be ashamed to climb inside when your schedule insists. It's easy to burn out on the gym but you won't get better by sitting on the couch.
-Try projects that are hard but still well within your ability. Like make a goal to do something within 10 tries or less. This helps you from doing a project that's way over your head.
-DO NOT only try the soft/easy graded 12's. Do you wanna send a 12a that most people think is 11d? Send all the easy 12a's and then you'll get spanked and frustrated when you try a "real" 12a. DO try a quality route that you find fun and will keep you wanting to come back and keep trying cuz it's so damn fun. So, don't look for an "easy" 12a. Look for a 3 star 12a.
-EXPECT for your ability level to fluctuate. You may send a 12a and then not do another one for 4 months. It's not because you "suck" or you're "weak". Your performance level will go up and down like the stock market , but in the long run you'll get consistently better if you stick with it.
-I only climb. I don't lift weights and I rarely go running or biking. Sometimes I run because it's fun but not because it's an integrated portion of my climbing program. But I'm skinny so aerobics may be more important for you if you are overweight (by the way, I've seen some slightly pudgy guys send 13d, not every sport climber has to be an anorexic stick). I also only boulder and only sport climb. I used to do it all but found I was Jack of all trades and master of none. I went mountaineering and ice climbing and, for me, it didn't translate well to climbing harder sport routes. Some people are great at doing trad, sport, and bouldering. But that didn't work for me. Your results and desires may differ.
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gravitytheory
Nov 7, 2003, 5:21 PM
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Training is not neccessary if you smoke lots of pot--then you can just float up to the top.
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jcinco
Nov 7, 2003, 5:44 PM
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Agreed with fredrodgers. All that "how to climb 5.12", "training your weakness" is a load of hooey (I can't believe I just said hooey). DO NOT "train"! "Training" is the best path to burnout and injury. Just get out and climb. Devote your free time to climbing. PUSH YOURSELF. Get on routes that you think might be too hard for you. Make a commitment to climbing outside. Climbing on plastic gets you super strong but you forget how to use your feet.. a lot of those sickly strong people you see in the gym are specialists that struggle on 11a outside. Practice redpointing routes, even if those routes are 11c right now. Not sure what other advice to give... but if you make the time commitment you'll eventually get there.
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fredrogers
Nov 7, 2003, 5:53 PM
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Training your "weakness" is very important but doesn't have to be boring. If finger strength seems to be a weakness that doesn't mean you have to do a million boring hangboard workouts. Just do routes or boulder problems that are crimpy. Suck at overhang routes? Forget doing situps, just get on some easy overhang/body tension routes.
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therealdeal
Nov 7, 2003, 5:57 PM
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I think climbing year round is the key - whether it be in the gym or outside. I think best case scenario is using both.
I do think training is an easy way to get to the next level. Not just training climbing. Doing situps, pushups, pullups, low resistance weights. The most important thing about this is it keeps strength and tone up and WEIGHT DOWN. The single most important thing in sport climbing is the strength to weight ratio--I don't care what anybody else says--its also one of the esiest problems to solve. You are never going to climb to your full potential hauling around extra weight!
Campus boarding, finger boards, four by fours and time on a woodie are great too! Never over do it, and don't always try stuff at your limit--but do have like one day a week on the woodie where you are trying projects--things with tiny holds (of course it is all relative) that you can't or can just barely hang. Sonn you'll find yourself hanging some of them, although I find some problems always stay out of reach. Just move on.
Also, days out side projecting a route--don't get discourged and don't project everyday, but you've got to get on 'em to climb 'em.
Anyway I talk to much and need to get back to work.
Good Luck!
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madflash
Nov 7, 2003, 6:02 PM
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Yeah I just recently broke into that level a couple of months ago, and I did very little training on plastic, campus, etc to get there. I think as you start moving into the 13s or 14s training is more of a necessity, but for 5.12 most people (who are in pretty good shape with a strong base of upper body strength) can do it without any real training regiment.
I would suggest lots of bouldering however. That was a major key for me. A good winter of bouldering two or three times a week and you will crank through the cruxes on 12s like nothing. Don't just go out looking for the hardest problem you can hang on. Try to focus on really "mastering" each problem you do. By that I mean learn to relax on the holds and really feel the movement. Learn to be fluid and not move through sequences out of desperation, instead out of control. Too many boulderers I know have to fight their way through hard moves. Sure you are going to have feet cut occasionally and have to chuck a dyno every once in a while. But if every move is like that it will be damn near impossible to make it up a 80 foot long 5.12, just watch em try.
The other key I found to being able to do 12s was to spend a lot of my roped climbing days focusing on different aspects of the game. Have a day every few weeks where your goal is to do as many 5.10s and 5.11s as you can with only minimal rest in between. These endurance days really paid off a lot. I found one of my problems on 12s was that after a good warm up, I would only get like four or five solid burns before I was to cashed to pull at my maximum any more. That really was holding me back. By focusing on upping the number of burns I could get in a day by spending lots of time onsighting and lapping 11s, I got to where I can have more burns per day. That will greatly increase your success rate on 12s.
One last thing. Find some like minded individuals who are either pulling as hard as you and want to pull harder or are already pulling harder than you. Climb with them. Motivation is so key. Feeding off of each others energy will push you harder than ever before. And good luck
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socalbolter
Nov 7, 2003, 6:05 PM
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many great comments presented here already, but let me add a few.
often times harder climbs come down to dealing with hard moves in uncomfortable circumstances, with limited time to commit. this can be caused by a number of things, but usually it's either fear of falling, dealing with insecure body positions or dealing with a single bad hold or set of holds. being able to make a quick decisive move is often the key to success. most climbs have a distinct crux with the intensity of the moves lessening to some degree immediately following it. being able to make a quick assessment of the needed action and then committing to it immediately is a very important skill.
as for your question of whether you need to "train" or not - as ronnie said above simply increasing your time climbing is in itself training, but not in the scientific, often boring way that you are probably referring. i find it extremely boring to run through a series of exercises that in and of themselves are not enjoyable. due to this i tend to just spend a lot of time climbing at or around the grade i'm shooting for. whether you succeed or fail is irrelevant. simply exposing yourself to that level will get you used to the type of moves and body positions that you'll need to be comfortable with in order to commit when it's required.
desire is a big part of it too, so if you want it - REALLY want it!
good luck!
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1269topper
Nov 7, 2003, 6:55 PM
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Wow there is some really increadble great sound advice in this tread.
I just broke this level this summer and it was due to lots of determination and acceptance of pain. I know i don't have the best techinque which always supersedes streight and determination. However probably the best training i did to help me rapidly develop to this level was bouldering and then immedalty down bouldering the route I just sent. After a awhile your footwork really gets solid. Plus bouldering with sick boulders will push you there. Then some day when you got a ton of crap on your mind and you just need a fix of some cutical ripping ass kicking climbing throw up a Top rope on a 12 thats something you enjoy to climb. IE slab, roof, crack etc.
reason I said that to do this on a day were your consumed with though I seen to onsite much better then cause i don't think about grade or two moves later I jsut pissed and go for it reguardless of the outcome. Once your past the "OH my god 5.12 barrier " you can work at climbing the route more flawless or lead it.
Best of luck, I believe climbing a attitude so invision sucess not failure.
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miuralover
Nov 7, 2003, 7:13 PM
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Honestly if you leave the gym physically tired every night, not just after your skin starts feeling uncomfortable, you will hit 5.12. Of course climbing 2-4 days/week and climbing with/watching people better than you will help.
I know this sounds bad but body weight/type is important as well. While there are many different types of climbers out there, some have to work much harder than others to reach "5.12".
In my opinion there are several grades that everyone should strive to be consistent on. I'm travelled alot and I've found that there are amazing 11b, 12c, and 13b routes everywhere you go. I don't know why but aim to climb 12c and you'll get on amazing routes, then aim for 13b. I'm not saying that all the other grades are lame but think about where you've been and the routes you've done. What grades do you think are generally the best? Yay 5.12!!
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superfox
Nov 7, 2003, 9:59 PM
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Since you live in Massachusetts, I will assume that you mostly sport climb at Rumney. Since I was working towards the same goal as you are this summer, I got on a lot of 12a's and 12a/b's, so if you want specific information on some climbs, I can give you some that I think are really nice and/or easy.
Social Outcast (12a/b) - Really fun and interesting route. Goes up a 55 degree arete, with a ledge-rest in the middle. The best part, (**WARNING, possible unwanted beta**) there is a "hidden" jug most people miss in the middle of the crux, right near the top.
Orangahang (12a/b) - 30 foot roof on big holds, that's really pumpy, but once you've got the moves down, it just takes endurance to pull off.
Silver Surfer (12a) - Really nice route, with an easy crack start, some moves over a roof, then up a pair of dihedrals.
Curl Up and Fly (12a) - A section of 5.9-5.10 leads to a dyno to a positive crimp, followed by more 5.10, all on vertical rock.
Of each of these, I have climbed them with one fall, and have only completed Curl Up and Fly (on my third try), but I think with one or two more trips to each, I can tick all of them (except maybe Orangahang). I hope this gives you some ideas, and helps you decide on a 5.12 project. I know that it is best to get on a sustained, three star climb for your first 5.12, but if you're looking for one to send, just to say you did a 5.12, try Curl Up and Fly (that is, if you're good at dynos). Good luck.
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kansasclimber
Nov 7, 2003, 10:21 PM
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You will get there. You must trust that you will. Just keep working at it, and you will hit the grade before you know it. As far as what to do. Try to just push yourself. I did not do anything except have a different mind set about climbing. Once all you want is to get better and stronger and your lifestyle shows it, such as what you eat and workouts, then you will stick 12's. The grade is hard to get to but do not get intimidated as soo many have said. Good luck.
Stephen
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skecthballer
Nov 7, 2003, 10:52 PM
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One thing that nobody has said yet is to go climbing with people that really push you and make you get on harder routes. This is how I sent some of my first 12s.
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pancaketom
Nov 7, 2003, 11:02 PM
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I've never been able to climb 5.12 when I had a job, although if I got one tomorrow I bet I could still send. I'd say climb as much as possible w/o getting injured, climb with better/ highly motivated people, and keep trying things that might be over your limit.
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climb4life
Nov 7, 2003, 11:49 PM
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i learn for me is consistency. just keep on climbing and don't take more than a few months off or i will loose some strenght. also, being able to control my breathing while in a sketchy situations also seems to help me. i don't indoor climb much. i just go where it's warm and dry like moab right now. getting in to 5.12 grade is rewarding but remember,it's only a grade. i have climb some 5.9 or 5.10 that are way better than the classic 5.12 climbs. but that's me. but the question you ought to ask yourself is, how much are you willing to sacrafice to climb that hard? i meant as in your time, energy, money, girlfriend/boyfriend....ect. hell, i'm blabbing right now. i'm gonna browse the site before i make a fool of myself. good luck and
climb on
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climb_plastic
Nov 8, 2003, 12:18 AM
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It's not necessary to train indoors but it sure helps. I think you should have a combination of both. Climbing indoors will give you the strength required and some of the techniques needed but climbing outdoors has subleties you won't find indoors like finding holds and using them properly. You may climb 5.12 indoors but that doesn't mean you can do 5.12s outdoors if you never tried it but you should be physically strong enough.
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curt
Nov 8, 2003, 12:54 AM
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For me (age 47) training has become a double edged sword. I find that I can boulder as hard as ever by just bouldering on weekends and doing very minimal training mid-week. By minimal, I mean a few sets of pullups, pushups, etc. - a couple of days a week, plus some aerobic conditioning. If I go to the gym mid-week, I run the risk of having tendon problems with my elbows.
So, whatever you do, don't overtrain and get some sort of injury that can actually hurt your climbing--rather than help it.
Curt
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rocknalaska
Nov 8, 2003, 1:07 AM
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Learn the simple physics of climbing. i.e. direction of pull, how to push, etc. To me this is the most lacking thing I see in climbers. I've seen climbers who can crank multiple one arm pull-ups, have great smearing technique, good footwork, but have no comprehension of body mechanics. Hence they have an extreme weakness. This applies to all types of climbing.
Also, set your sights at 13 and 12 will come quickly.
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ikefromla
Nov 8, 2003, 1:15 AM
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train like a dog
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curt
Nov 8, 2003, 2:11 AM
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In reply to: train like a dog
Pissing on fire hydrants will not make you climb any harder.
Curt
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arkansasclimber
Nov 8, 2003, 3:17 AM
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I also like watching/climbing with people better than you. This is what i did when i first started climbing. i still climb primarily with guys who are better than me and it helps push you to do better. i would also recomend climbing the most technical routes/problems you can find. I also campus alot for 2or3 weeks and will then take a month long break from it. I do think it is possible to get to be a 5.12 climber with only climbing. you just need to try and climb 3 times a week. i usually climb in the gym tues thurs and outside on the weekend. :lol:
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riceplate
Nov 8, 2003, 4:14 AM
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I always thought of 5.13 as kinda the marathon of the climbing world. Pretty much acheivable by anyone that is reasonably fit and wants it.
just keep running (literally and figuratively).
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gregman
Nov 8, 2003, 5:26 AM
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For me, all I did was climb almost every day. Now I know you probably can't do that, but over the summer I worked at my rock gym, and I just got strong. I can't really explain why, but I guess just climb as much as you can. There is no substitute for actual climbing.
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cliffhunger
Nov 8, 2003, 5:47 AM
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My mistake was simply not trying.
If you say that you are close, then you probably are already there, but do not realise it.
Pick a route, outside, a classic.
Try it.
The gym is a bad way to measure your ability with grades, as most people do not grade accurately, or like to sandbag a lot (usually happens within the high 5.11 and 5.12 ranges in most gyms).
Some people can send 5.12 the day they first touch the rock, and will never do it because they didn't try.
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mrme
Nov 8, 2003, 5:59 AM
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who cares what you f*cken climb...it aint about a grade its about fun...get a life...climb more...if you have to ask questions you are not there yet!!!!
quit thinking just do it!!!!
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 9, 2003, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: who cares what you f*cken climb...it aint about a grade its about fun...get a life...climb more...if you have to ask questions you are not there yet!!!! quit thinking just do it!!!!
Thanks for the sound advise, mrme. I'll get right on it. I will get a life. Oh wait, climbing is a major part of my life.
Why do some people get so offended when grades are brought up. I don't want to climb 5.12 so I can pick up chicks or impress people. Grades are used to determine difficulty, so why can't we use them to guage are improvement. I climb for fun. If I never see the top of a 5.12,13,etc. I will still think climbing is the best activity in the world. I like to push myself and be the best I can at something. Not to be better than anyone, but for myself.
If I never got past 5.6, I would still be climbing, So mrme, I ask you to get a life, or at least give better advise.
thank you!
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climb_plastic
Nov 9, 2003, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: who cares what you f*cken climb...it aint about a grade its about fun...get a life...climb more...if you have to ask questions you are not there yet!!!!
I think most people care what they can climb even if they don't admit it. I know what the hardest climb I've ever done was rated and I know what rating I'm working on. So yeah I care. That being said, no one I know just climbs for ratings.
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diesel___smoke
Nov 10, 2003, 5:44 PM
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I have a way you could climb 5.12 and above with 'No training (physical) necessary'
Interested?
I know you are.
Aid is the answer.
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wonderwoman
Nov 10, 2003, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: who cares what you f*cken climb...it aint about a grade its about fun...get a life...climb more...if you have to ask questions you are not there yet!!!!
Wow... How incredibly rude and an absolutely useless contribution. Thanks for nothing.
Personally, I think it's important to set climbing goals for yourself and to share them with other people. mrme, if you are not setting goals for yourself, then maybe you're just not as into climbing as blueeyedclimber is. But don't hold that against him.
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jt512
Nov 10, 2003, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: Why do some people get so offended when grades are brought up.
Because they are weak, I imagine, and so they resent climbers who are strong and want to get stronger.
-Jay
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grog
Nov 10, 2003, 6:54 PM
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Training definitely helps, but you just have to believe. I was climbing mid 11's before my buddy Rick took me to Horne Lake and dragged me up my first 12. I never tried harder stuff before, because i just thought it was totally impossible, so it was. Find a totally motivating and patient rope gun, it made all the difference for me.
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dirtme
Nov 10, 2003, 7:20 PM
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I think climbings 12's is just a matter of EITHER techinique and/or natural strength and ability. You really can flail up a 12 like a monkey if you find the right route. I believe that climbing 13's is a different matter all together, where you need some natural ability AND have superb technique. Of course, I haven't climbed a 13 yet, so I'm just guessing.
My best advice on how to get there? I'd say just climb, enjoy climbing, and don't forget climbing is fun. It's all about motivation to stay on the rock. I think most, if not all, people have the ability to climb 12's. It's just a matter of time.
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 10, 2003, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: I think most, if not all, people have the ability to climb 12's. It's just a matter of time.
I don't think this is true. I know a lot of dedicated climbers who climb a lot but I don't think they will get to that level. And it doesn't matter. I just think that I have the opportunity to get there and beyond (hopefully). Training is not the only avenue for success. Genetics and lifestyle play a major role in leading to success. A person may want to be an Olympic athlete, and train real hard, but that does not mean they will be one.
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dirtme
Nov 10, 2003, 8:19 PM
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Climbing 12's is not Olympic type athleticism. I think 12's are within reach for MOST people. To get there, I subscribe to the "climbing hard and often" school of thought.
My goal for the past couple of years is to climb harder because there is a greater range of climbs available at those grades. In places like Yosemite, all the 10 and sub 10 classic routes are generally jam packed with people. To tell you the truth, that's one of the driving forces for me to do 12 trad, which I can't do quite yet. I'd also make the argument that the harder climbs are more picturesque, cleaner, and just a lot more fun.
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climb_plastic
Nov 10, 2003, 10:08 PM
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In reply to: Climbing 12's is not Olympic type athleticism. I think 12's are within reach for MOST people. To get there, I subscribe to the "climbing hard and often" school of thought.
Climbing 12s isn't Olympic type athleticism but it takes a high level of athleticism. Just look at the people in the book "How to Climb 5.12" and tell me if those people look like the average person. And when I talk about a 5.12 climber I'm talking about those who consistently climb 5.12s not those that have done one or even a few of them. That's tough. That's why there are lines for the 5.10 and below routes and you could pretty much just walk up to a 5.12 route without wait.
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mrme
Nov 10, 2003, 11:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: who cares what you f*cken climb...it aint about a grade its about fun...get a life...climb more...if you have to ask questions you are not there yet!!!! quit thinking just do it!!!! Thanks for the sound advise, mrme. I'll get right on it. I will get a life. Oh wait, climbing is a major part of my life. Why do some people get so offended when grades are brought up. I don't want to climb 5.12 so I can pick up chicks or impress people. Grades are used to determine difficulty, so why can't we use them to guage are improvement. I climb for fun. If I never see the top of a 5.12,13,etc. I will still think climbing is the best activity in the world. I like to push myself and be the best I can at something. Not to be better than anyone, but for myself. If I never got past 5.6, I would still be climbing, So mrme, I ask you to get a life, or at least give better advise. thank you!
forgive me for thinking that when someone says a 5.12 climber that i think of someone that is so comfortable at that level that they would fill comfortable anywere in the world to rope up or not depending on there level of assesment of that climb and onsight flash it with no betta.....and if you have a life that might be the problem because at a certian point you have to make it as much as if not all your life not just a major part of it and this level comes at difrent levels for difrent people. if you like climbing that much then you will finde out how hard you can climb.
one can not truly be happy striving always to be better,and if you are not happy how can you have fun.
though i thrive on getting better on an open ended grading system like most everyone else i like to use it as a guide and not a level to evaluate on how much fun i am having.
keep it all in perspective and no your limits and embrace your weaknesses.in life in general.
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dirtme
Nov 11, 2003, 12:03 AM
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The people in those books probably climb 13's and 14's and that's why they look like that. They're generally freakishly skinny and cut like they're made outta stone.
I believe that most people can climb 12's. I'm a really unmotivated climber that barely gets to the gym twice a week and on real rock 1-2 times a month. I generally only make it to the gym once a week actually because I'm so darn lazy and pretty much dislike the place. To top it off, it's Class 5 in Marin and it can barely be considered a climbing gym. I can sport in the 12's consistently and trad in the 11's. If I can do it, Joe, Dick and Harry can too.
I think 13 is the magic number in climbing. If you can do 13's then you're pretty darn good.
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ipsofacto
Feb 18, 2004, 11:19 PM
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Just get on it; sooner or later the strength does come. I reached 5.12 after five months in my first season. 5.13 is a completely different realm from 5.12 (In my opinion), requiring a great deal of finger strength and excellent technique.
I'm a big believer in technique. I've met loads of climbers over the years who had herculean finger strength, yet they were climbing at levels leagues beneath me for want of technique.
The gym seems to be more of hindrance to progress on your outdoor climbing abilities. Again, I've met vast quantities of people who climb rings around me in the gym, yet climb with the ability of a new-born girl when taken outside.
My theory worked wonders for a friend of mine last summer. He had been stuck in 5.11 for years and dreamed of the day that he could tackle a 12. With my encouragement, he TR'd a 12b-his first 12 experience-and within a month had built up the suffiicient strength and endurance to red-point that 12b. Now he is a consistent 5.12 climber.
In another instance I encouraged a person with only a years climbing experience to try a 12. His hardest red-point to date had been 11a. Two months later he was working out the moves on a first ascent of a 12c!
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ipsofacto
Feb 20, 2004, 10:12 PM
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jt512
Feb 20, 2004, 10:47 PM
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In reply to: I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, but I think the grades can be broken done like so: 5.10 Novice Level 5.11 Beginning level 5.12 Intermediate Level 5.13 Advanced Level 5.14 Expert Level Over the years I have noticed that people are easily intimidated by the large numbers, thinking that they are the exclusive realm of olympians. More often than not, when I have offered up my rope to someone so that they could have a taste of 11+/12- they are genuinely surprised that it is actually well within their means, albeit with a little more practise. Like all things in life, you do have to invest some time in order to reach the higher levels;however, the most significant factor is just the willingness to let yourself look like a complete ass while you are acquiring the requisite strength and technique for that level. If you do a lot of climbing and are constantly pushing your limits, you will find the transition to 5.12 comes quite quickly. Once you have acquired the habit of 5.12 and up, it quickly becomes an addiction you cannot break. I'm sure the other 12 and up climbers will agree with me on this one: the positions you find yourself in are amazing in the higher grades. Upside down with a leg over your head, dynoing, and on and on...
5.12a might be considered the very upper end of "intermediate" sport climbing. By 5.12c things are definitely "advanced." 5.13b is definitely "expert" territory. 5.14 is beyond expert. I'd say "elite."
And yes, I agree with you, harder climbs are more interesting and once you are capable at a certain level, you don't want to go back.
-Jay
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mreardon
Feb 23, 2004, 1:23 AM
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5.11 is a beginner level? Wow, those ratings out there must have really softened up. Didn't realize that after 15 years I was only a beginner.
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 1:48 AM
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*5.11 is a beginner level?*
In sport climbing it is.
5.0-5.12b...Beginner. The crux moves on 12b's are like v2 or 3, which I've seen beginning boulderers pull on literally Day 1.
5.12c-13b...Intermediate, usually v3 to v6 cruxes
13b and up...Expert, usually v6 and up cruxes
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braaaaaaaadley
Feb 23, 2004, 2:15 AM
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Are you kidding me? I know people that have been climbing all their lifes that can't even TR 5.11's let alone lead them. I have climbed 11's that are not possible without really strong arms or fingers. I would label the 12.a/b the upper intermediate/beginner expert territory. .13 advanced expert .14 elete. And for all those out there that say ratings are stupid etc., well ratings are stupid if you brag about them, but they are fun to chart your progress level. Also they are necessary for your own safety... they keep you within your limits. Its just too bad that ratings are not the same everywhere. :?
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curt
Feb 23, 2004, 2:20 AM
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In reply to: *5.11 is a beginner level?* In sport climbing it is. 5.0-5.12b...Beginner. The crux moves on 12b's are like v2 or 3, which I've seen beginning boulderers pull on literally Day 1. 5.12c-13b...Intermediate, usually v3 to v6 cruxes 13b and up...Expert, usually v6 and up cruxes
Really? What sport routes have V10 cruxes?
Curt
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alpnclmbr1
Feb 23, 2004, 2:34 AM
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For a climber: (sport/boulder/trad combined)
Beginner: 5.6 to 5.8
Intermediate: 10-
Advanced: 10+ (most 13 sport climbers hope they fit into this category)
Expert: 11
Elite: 5.12, Huber's
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ipsofacto
Feb 23, 2004, 2:52 AM
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 2:52 AM
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*Really? What sport routes have V10 cruxes?*
Lemme think...Realization is v11 just to pull off the ground...Supertweak 14b at Logan Cyn, v9...Frogtown 13d at the VRG is v8/9...I could probably come up with a few more if I thought about it...oh yeah I think Jason said Nec. Evil was v11...help me out here guys...
check this out
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=1109
I've stood on that pile of cheatstones and pawed around and I'm pretty tall, and there's nothing I can even imagine pulling on
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ptone
Feb 23, 2004, 3:00 AM
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I've only tried 5.12 on tr, but I'll shyly toss in my 2 cents...
I remember leading my first 5.10s, and thinking it was all about getting stronger--but once I'd climbed the same ones a couple times, it got easy faster than I could've got strong. Thing was, I'd dialed the moves, bettered my technique, and there it was.
Now at 5.12 it feels like that again. I know pound for pound technique'll take you miles further than strength, so I'm trying to think more.
Bouldering really helped me improve on routes, helped me learn to figure out cruxes and techniques for dicey off-center or long moves.
A few mentioned it before, but I think the biggest thing is my head. On 12 I'm trying moves that are alot more exacting, both balance wise and strength wise. That sense of fall potential in my belly suddenly widens its eyes and sucks in a breath...
Pure fear or lack of faith kills me before I even know if I can pull the move.
Bouldering helps me see I can nail those moves, plain old mileage helps me get used to the view below.
Slowly I plug away, getting better as it happens. The reason for going harder is to keep that excitement, sense of newness. I want to keep on feeling like I'm on the edge....I don't care whether anyone is better or worse than me (actually--I like it when people are better, like to watch them climb!)
Oh--here is a link for those rating conversions--I think V10 is supposed to be about 14a or so...
http://www.bouldering.com/bouldering_ratingsconversion_cha.htm
peace
-p
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 3:04 AM
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*Oh--here is a link for those rating conversions--I think V10 is supposed to be about 14a or so...*
Correct. 14a's usually have v9-10 moves, 13a v5-6, 12a v1-2, etc
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ipsofacto
Feb 23, 2004, 3:05 AM
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okinawatricam
Feb 23, 2004, 3:29 AM
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Maybe some people are confusing climbing 5.12 with being a 5.12 climber.
I agree, anyone with some climbing ability can climb A 512 or two if they work the routes. But can they climb 5.12 consistently acroos the board. How often are they onsighting them.
In climbing, like other sport, the gap between good climbers, and elite climber is and will continue to broaden. Of course, newer genration to the sport will come with higher expection of what is possible, which will push the standarts foward more.
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mreardon
Feb 23, 2004, 3:31 AM
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In reply to: Sorry, folks, I didn't mean to trample on anyone's toes by making such brash statements, but yes, I think that 5.12 is well within the means of climbers with modest abilities. All of the people that I climbed with last summer went from 5.10 to 5.12 in a matter of months. One fellow in particular started the season at 5.11- and finished the season establishing the a first ascent on a 5.12c! We were always climbing at the limits of our abilities, and only left the crag at the end of the day when just walking became a chore. What made the difference? They just got on a 12 and worked it. The first one took some effort, the second less than the first, the third less than the second, and on and on...
5.12 for modest climbers? Guess the Hubers are merely modest then. Me thinks you need to get outside more often. You need to meet more climbers, or get on better rated climbs than that soft stuff. Let's see a beginner get on some of the sport climbs of those ratings at Joshua Tree. :D I'm not even sandbagging, I'm actually serious.
KALCARIO - sure some sport problems are based on a V-blah crux, but not everyone climbs at Red Rocks. :D
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fish
Feb 23, 2004, 3:52 AM
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Well when you climb V10... 5.12 is easy.
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smellyhippie
Feb 23, 2004, 4:03 AM
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Ugg.
Some people need their ego fed non-stop.
Nate
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 4:25 AM
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*Let's see a beginner get on some of the sport climbs of those ratings at Joshua Tree. I'm not even sandbagging, I'm actually serious.*
Everything at Josh is sandbagged...but then, since the crags resemble sand dunes in both texture and angle, this seems appropo...just from experience, though, the crack climbs at Josh feel easier than their similarly graded counterparts in the Valley, mainly I suppose because they're usually over before you'd place your second piece in Yosemite...
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curt
Feb 23, 2004, 4:33 AM
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In reply to: *Let's see a beginner get on some of the sport climbs of those ratings at Joshua Tree. I'm not even sandbagging, I'm actually serious.* Everything at Josh is sandbagged...but then, since the crags resemble sand dunes in both texture and angle, this seems appropo...just from experience, though, the crack climbs at Josh feel easier than their similarly graded counterparts in the Valley, mainly I suppose because they're usually over before you'd place your second piece in Yosemite...
Really? I'd say the opposite. In my experience the ratings at Josh and The Gunks for that matter are a bit stiffer than Yosemite.
Curt
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alpnclmbr1
Feb 23, 2004, 4:47 AM
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In reply to: Really? I'd say the opposite. In my experience the ratings at Josh and The Gunks for that matter are a bit stiffer than Yosemite. Curt
Ditto on that
Tahquitz is somewhere in between. I always figured they sandbagged the numbers a little to help compensate for the shorter routes and simpler routefinding.
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 4:50 AM
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Can't speak for the Gunks, although I remember one thread awhile back that said Survival of the Fittest, given 13a, would be 12c anyplace else, but Josh seems to suffer from the typical sandbag scenario where the locals undergrade the routes they can do and overgrade the ones they can't...and I'm assuming from this that you guys have'nt climbed in the Valley much, correct?
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climb_plastic
Feb 23, 2004, 6:13 AM
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In reply to: I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, but I think the grades can be broken done like so: 5.10 Novice Level 5.11 Beginning level 5.12 Intermediate Level 5.13 Advanced Level 5.14 Expert Level
This sounds about right if you're talking about the maximum grade you've ever climbed clean.
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curt
Feb 23, 2004, 6:19 AM
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In reply to: Can't speak for the Gunks, although I remember one thread awhile back that said Survival of the Fittest, given 13a, would be 12c anyplace else, but Josh seems to suffer from the typical sandbag scenario where the locals undergrade the routes they can do and overgrade the ones they can't...and I'm assuming from this that you guys have'nt climbed in the Valley much, correct?
I'm sure you can't speak for the Gunks. You would actually have to climb there, instead of clipping bolts. Of course, I've only done 250 routes there or so, through 5.12.
Curt
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 6:24 AM
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*I'm sure you can't speak for the Gunks. You would actually have to climb there, instead of clipping bolts. Of course, I've only done 250 routes there or so, through 5.12. *
So from this I gather you have about as much experience in Yosemite, which you are speaking for, as I do in the Gunks?
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curt
Feb 23, 2004, 6:28 AM
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In reply to: *I'm sure you can't speak for the Gunks. You would actually have to climb there, instead of clipping bolts. Of course, I've only done 250 routes there or so, through 5.12. * So from this I gather you have about as much experience in Yosemite, which you are speaking for, as I do in the Gunks?
If you include Toulumne, then yes I have as much experience in Yosemite as I have in the Gunks. If you mean the valley proper, then--no, I haven't done as many routes in Yosemite as I have in the Gunks.
Curt
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 6:34 AM
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*If you include Toulumne, then yes I have as much experience in Yosemite as I have in the Gunks. If you mean the valley proper, then--no, I haven't done as many routes in Yosemite as I have in the Gunks*
So your main experience in Yosemite, the trad mecca of the planet, consists of clipping bolts. On low angle slabs. Interesting.
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curt
Feb 23, 2004, 6:42 AM
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In reply to: *If you include Toulumne, then yes I have as much experience in Yosemite as I have in the Gunks. If you mean the valley proper, then--no, I haven't done as many routes in Yosemite as I have in the Gunks* So your main experience in Yosemite, the trad mecca of the planet, consists of clipping bolts. On low angle slabs. Interesting.
Yosemite is hardly the trad mecca of the planet. Why don't you sack up and visit the Gunks? Because you will whimper and fail miserably there?--probably.
Curt
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okinawatricam
Feb 23, 2004, 6:49 AM
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I spent a couple of weeks at the gunks last summer. I didn't find the grades to be so "sandbaged."
Unlike many trad climbing areas, the gunks requires face climbing skills and the ability to pull roofs. Beyond that, no diference.
Jtree/Yosemite seem pretty close in grades to me too. Jtree's rock is slightly more painful, but good crack climbing technic will get you thru.
I have never climbed Taquitz, but I look foward to it.
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 6:56 AM
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*Yosemite is hardly the trad mecca of the planet. Why don't you sack up and visit the Gunks? Because you will whimper and fail miserably there?--probably.*
If the Gunks are so hairball, how come all you could do in Yosemite was clip bolts? Not exactly what your rhetoric prepared me to hear, you gotta admit...this is like hearing that Rush was on hillbilly heroin half the time...any other revelations you wanna spring on us while we're still in shock? The combover's a toupee? Mother's maiden name was Schickelgruber?
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curt
Feb 23, 2004, 7:10 AM
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In reply to: *Yosemite is hardly the trad mecca of the planet. Why don't you sack up and visit the Gunks? Because you will whimper and fail miserably there?--probably.* If the Gunks are so hairball, how come all you could do in Yosemite was clip bolts? Not exactly what your rhetoric prepared me to hear, you gotta admit...this is like hearing that Rush was on hillbilly heroin half the time...any other revelations you wanna spring on us while we're still in shock?
Curt
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2004, 7:19 AM
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Uh, I don't know about that, you'd have to ask them...actually I spent hardly any time in Josh, a few months at most, never really got into it...and let's not stoop to name calling here, just having a little fun with you, you did set yourself up pretty good there...have you done the B-Y by the way?
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koravas
Feb 23, 2004, 7:20 AM
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For me it was an (probably unhealthy) obsession with climbing. I climbed virtually every day for months. At that point it never even occured to me that people trained to climb. What held me back was tendonittis and injury. I had to learn to control my obsession. Body type probably helped me too.
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roughster
Feb 23, 2004, 7:42 AM
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roughster moved this thread from General to Technique & Training.
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curt
Feb 23, 2004, 7:48 AM
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In reply to: Uh, I don't know about that, you'd have to ask them...actually I spent hardly any time in Josh, a few months at most, never really got into it...and let's not stoop to name calling here, just having a little fun with you, you did set yourself up pretty good there...have you done the B-Y by the way?
I did it in 1984. When did you do it? :wink:
Curt
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 23, 2004, 3:49 PM
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I started this thread months ago and was kind of happy to see it return, but now I just want it to die. If you guys need your ego petted, then go get a dog. Climbing isn't about egos. I am kind of sorry that I ever brought up grades. Being an expert has nothing to do with them. I was asking for advice to further my climbing abilities. It seems that everyone has there own idea about what makes an advanced climber from what grade they pull to where they climb. This is not what climbing is about.
Josh
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ipsofacto
Feb 23, 2004, 4:26 PM
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23456789
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deafears
Feb 24, 2004, 6:26 PM
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I'd say that 5.12a/b is getting to be pretty common, but climbers who consistantly do .12c/d are much fewer and farther between. .13a/b is still a very high standard, with the caveat that doing one or two routes at this grade does not put you in this category. ... .13c/d is very, very hard, and above that is truly an elite realm. .14a is damnably hard, even though it's now well off the world standard.
As an analogy to .14a, a 4:00 mile is also nowhere near the international high end, yet very, very few runners can touch that mark.
I notice that many of the posters here insinuate they climb to 5.12+, but only one or two can say they consistently redpoint higher than that.
Lastily, I have to add that leading a full pitch of old-school 5.8 or 5.9, especially a few pitches off the deck and protected by gear, is a serious athletic accomplishment, one that is not really very different in its demands from a 5.12 jug-haul.
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bvb
Feb 27, 2004, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: just from experience, though, the crack climbs at Josh feel easier than their similarly graded counterparts in the Valley
hmmm....i've climbed most of the stadard issue 5.12 cracks in both the valley and josh, and if i had to generalize, i'd have to day josh grades are stiffer. although there are exceptions. for example, vector in josh is a givaway 11c compared to butterballs in the valley. on the otherhand, fish crack at 12b is easier that simple simon at 11c. any baby apes? i'm sticking with bachar's original grade -- that sucker is 5.13.
but taken as a whole, i'd say josh has a slight edge on the sandbag ratings. just my opinion, though. both areas have sandsbags abd givaways at all grade levels.
biggist sandbag i've ever done? stubs, just left of tips. they give it 12b, but that sucker felt like the hardest thing i did in the valley. it was one of the few crack i never got wired. everytime i went up there to do it, it was hit or miss.
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gumbobob
Mar 1, 2004, 5:20 PM
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i say jump on (toprope) of something way hard--like 12d or 13a--and really learn the route...your body will begin to adjust and your unique solutions to foot beta and insane crimpers will leave with enough experience that 12a's will be a flash (pun!) of course, make sure that the climb you are trying is one that is conceivable--a short 13a you cant do one move on is awful, a long 13a that trains both power and endurance is perfect. (at least this idea worked for me)
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alpinerock
Mar 3, 2004, 3:22 AM
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I think what pushed me into the 12's would definatly be bouldering. Yes, i trained a little bit, but really it was bouldering that gave me that edge i needed.
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