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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 3:52 PM
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A good friend of mine was climbing Spaceshot in Zion last week and had a complete failure of a Yates Adjustable Daisy chain.
Here are the details as I know them;
He was starting up the bolt ladder pitch after short fixing.
He was on the hook move after doing a couple of moves on bolts.
The hook blew and he fell the FULL length of his Adj. daisy onto a bolt.
When he hit the end of the Adjustable Daisy chain(ADC) the webbing BROKE and he decked onto the ledge.
The Webbing broke right at the buckle. He had been using this daisy for Approximatly 1 year and stated that it didn't have any visible damage or fraying prior to the failure.
Approximately 1 month prior to this fall he had taken another daisy fall but wasn't sure if it was the same daisy or not. That time he actually fell onto an INVERTED CAMHOOK which HELD A STATIC DAISY FALL!!! But that's another story.
That's what I know so far, I'm hoping to check it out next week sometime.
Another member of this site was with him and hopefully has some more info to share.
I am trying to get my buddy to send it in to Yates so they can look at what went wrong.
So the moral is...be careful out there kids!! Don't trust that gear to much.
josh
P.S.
On a side note they did finish the route in a very respectable time!!
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Dec 12, 2003, 4:06 PM
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thanks a lot, josh, you're really creeping me out with this one. i use a metolius adjustable daisy (thanks, tracyroach!) on one side and a bd full-length on the other.
the metolius design -- i'm uncertain how it differs from yates' -- used to concern me because of the way the slack end of the webbing was attached to the loda-bearing strand using a measly wire slider. i was of the mind that if the senario you described ever happened to me, the end of the webbing would zip throught the buckle assembly and cast me into the hereafter.
being a firm believer that most gear requires purpose modification, i've since removed the wire slider and sinply tied a bulky knot in the end.
good job on the heads-up. and kudos to yer pal for getting right back on the horse what throwed 'im!
see you at the ice fest.
geo
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 4:08 PM
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George,
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Metolious aren't as strong as the Yates...
See you in Ouray!!
josh
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euroford
Dec 12, 2003, 4:13 PM
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A good reminder that your daisy chains are part of your "moving system" and not your "safety system". i would really like to know what some of those static loads end up being!
i think i remeber yates selling a daisy setup that includes a screamer. i might consider adding one between my donut and my daisy's next time i get on something big.
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csoles
Dec 12, 2003, 4:16 PM
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Factor 2 static fall onto a single strand of used webbing bent at an angle...what's the surprise?
PS I'd bet it was a Leeper and not a Pika cam hook.
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dirko
Dec 12, 2003, 4:19 PM
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Man, mad props to that cam hook.
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traddad
Dec 12, 2003, 4:31 PM
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I just bought a set of these so this scares me.
I went to a "Fall Factor Calculator" and put in some iffy numbers (weight=165, length of fall 4.5 feet (daisy length) rope out (daisy length) 4.5 feet, static fall) and I got a fall factor of 2 and a KN of 16+. The yates daisy is only rated between 1500 and 2000 lbs, depending on your source of info. 16 KN = ~3500 lbs so he could of very well exceeded the rating for the daisy.
I am NOT an engineer and I am probably wrong.
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therealbovine
Dec 12, 2003, 4:53 PM
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The first thing that comes to mind is the Ancra buckle that Yates uses on the Adjustable Daisy. The buckle has tiny, but sharp teeth that cam into the webbing, holding it in place as adjusted. Seems like it might be possible in this scenario that the fall created enough force to cut the webbing at the cam on the Ancra buckle. Almost a "mega-pinch" happened @ the cam.
Must have been some crazy slack in the rope for your buddy to have hit that ledge!
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 5:08 PM
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That's why we climb with dynamic ropes as our main form of protection instead of daisys. The primary purpose of a daisy chain is not to catch falls. Falling the full length of a daisy on to a bolt will generate massive force that static webbing isn't designed to absorb. Euroford has it right. Daisys are "part of your moving system and not your safety system".
It sounds like the only thing that went very wrong is the fact that the rope didn't stop his fall at the bolt right below his feet. The rope should have been clipped in to that bolt. If he was multiple bolts past the ledge how did he fall all the way back to ledge? Was he not clipping any of the bolts that he had moved past? Something sounds amiss in this story.
In response to the poster above....Yes, the Yates Adjustable Daisy webbing is rated stronger than the Metolious version. I don't know the exact specs. Some digging on this site should turn up the specifics.
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rogueclimber
Dec 12, 2003, 5:44 PM
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Years back I took a daisy fall on a brand new #5 BD stopper blowing the actual wire in two and leaving the stopper in place.
At the time I was very surprised the wire blew. :shock:
Now that I know a bit more about the forces involved in these short falls, It doesn't come as such a shock.
Oh, and I still use spectra daisys.
Cheers!
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karlbaba
Dec 12, 2003, 5:59 PM
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Yup, a factor 2 fall on a static strap could break the webbing. The fact that it might have been the second severe stress on the webbing doesn't help.
It doesn't seem intuitive that such short falls could generate those kind of forces but it's true. It can hurt your body just as easily.
I talked to a guy who took a severe daisy fall in Zion. A few days later he felt like crap and went to the doctor. Turns out he had internal bleeding and will need surgery.
It's probably a good idea to uses those screamer daisies when they is a chance you'll crash back down to the last piece. At least unclip the previous daisy after you've finished testing and are stepping up. You can alway still back-clean the last piece after moving up a step or two with no daisy but still clipped through the piece with a dynamic rope
Peace
Karl
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 6:10 PM
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Ok let me clarify a couple of things.
Csoles- Yes it was a Leeper and it was bent all to hell but it held the fall!
Bovine- I was thinking that the teeth on the buckle may have had something to do with it breaking as well...I'll be interested to inspect it. And yes he had alot of slack- he was short fixing and did not clip any of the bolts.
Dsafanda- Nothing was amiss. He was using a technique known as short fixing. He did not clip any of the bolts because he was moving fast and saving his gear. What he was doing is nothing new and while it may not be the safest thing it is fairly common practice. Ever "crack jumar" or leap frog cams? Big runout's....but you move fast.
Speed has it's risk's and this is one of them....
Euroford-In terms of moving system's and safety systems. Yes there is a difference, However when you are moving fast they boundaries of the 2 get blurred.
What happened in this situation was a worst case scenario with the ADC, fortunatly it only ended with a few bumps and bruise's.
Rogueclimber- Another very good friend of mine was on Zion SAR for awhile, They were doing some rescue training with one of the big rescue companies. They did a fall factor test on daisies to highlight the effects of fall factors.
They did the same drop test on everyone- it was the spectre daisies that continually FAILED!! The nylon version's did not. The reason is, Nylon has more give then spectre- ie it's more dynamic. Needless to say they all put their spectre daisies out of service after that...
josh
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russwalling
Dec 12, 2003, 6:17 PM
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###The hook blew and he fell the FULL length of his Adj. daisy onto a bolt.
When he hit the end of the Adjustable Daisy chain(ADC) the webbing BROKE and he decked onto the ledge. ###
No suprise there. All you ADJ daisy guys should read this post a few times. By design, these daisies are made for moving in a system and are actually quite weak. Yep.... WEAK. Taking falls onto any daisy is sketch, but on to an ADC borders on disaster.
###The Webbing broke right at the buckle.###
Of course. At the buckle there is a lot going on.... for openers the webbing is forced into a very tight radius turn onto a small radius edge. Trouble.... There is a cam with teeth that presses harder as more force is applied. Trouble... There is the webbing itself, used for a year, where even fresh would be the weakest link in the chain.
###He had been using this daisy for Approximatly 1 year and stated that it didn't have any visible damage or fraying prior to the failure.###
Impossible. But it does not really matter anyway. ADC's are a convenience, and you pay for this convenience by giving up some safety. Sometimes a lot of safety.
adios!
Russ
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: Impossible. But it does not really matter anyway. ADC's are a convenience, and you pay for this convenience by giving up some safety. Sometimes a lot of safety. adios! Russ
I couldn't agree more...I think I'll look into getting the screamer version for speed'o stuff.
Hey Russ- why don't you guys use stndard 1" tubular webbing in these ADC's?
I'm just assuming that the wear is the problem, considering the softer nylon used for the Tubular. But wouldn't this make the ADC alittle stronger?
josh
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csoles
Dec 12, 2003, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: Csoles- Yes it was a Leeper and it was bent all to hell but it held the fall!
Thought so, the Pika would have snapped.
As for spectra webbing, there are many types and you really can't lump them all together. That's a common problem with many tests that renders them meaningless. More accuracy in reporting is required.
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slabbyd
Dec 12, 2003, 6:43 PM
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That bolt ladder is at least 50' long, sounds like your friend got pretty damn lucky. In fact I'd say it sounds like he screwed up.
Perfect example of why again and again the general concensus is to NOT USE CAM HOOKS ON TRADE ROUTES IN ZION. My gumby-ass friend made it up that pitch just fine with offset nuts, cams and tri-cams. His time was not stellar, certainly nothing to brag about, but he did not further destroy an already blown out pitch. In trying to go fast it sounds like your friend did. Thanks!
While short-fixing certainly speeds things it, it takes all of a few biners (and no more time) to clip every other bolt. Sounds like a good thing to do when your fall isn't clean (i.e. decking on a ledge). More often than not I see people skipping lots of clips on C1 bolt ladders in an attempt to? look and act cool is my guess, while adding significant risk to an already risky activity.
Girrr-Humphhh There's my diatribe for the day....
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russwalling
Dec 12, 2003, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Impossible. But it does not really matter anyway. ADC's are a convenience, and you pay for this convenience by giving up some safety. Sometimes a lot of safety. adios! Russ I couldn't agree more...I think I'll look into getting the screamer version for speed'o stuff. Hey Russ- why don't you guys use stndard 1" tubular webbing in these ADC's? I'm just assuming that the wear is the problem, considering the softer nylon used for the Tubular. But wouldn't this make the ADC alittle stronger? josh
We have used the tubular stuff before.... fatal flaw is one side will wear out much faster than the other side, and being tubular, leave you with some pretty sketchy looking webbing. I seems the "aider style" webbing gives a more even wear pattern and is overall thicker than the tube style. Maybe some tubular test models are in order..... I'll mull it over (unless Clyde has some quicky data for me????)
adios,
Russ
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: That bolt ladder is at least 50' long, sounds like your friend got pretty damn lucky. In fact I'd say it sounds like he screwed up. Perfect example of why again and again the general concensus is to NOT USE CAM HOOKS ON TRADE ROUTES IN ZION. My gumby-ass friend made it up that pitch just fine with offset nuts, cams and tri-cams. His time was not stellar, certainly nothing to brag about, but he did not further destroy an already blown out pitch. In trying to go fast it sounds like your friend did. Thanks! While short-fixing certainly speeds things it, it takes all of a few biners (and no more time) to clip every other bolt. Sounds like a good thing to do when your fall isn't clean (i.e. decking on a ledge). More often than not I see people skipping lots of clips on C1 bolt ladders in an attempt to? look and act cool is my guess, while adding significant risk to an already risky activity. Girrr-Humphhh There's my diatribe for the day....
YOU DUMB F**K!!!
My friend wasn't using a cam hook!! The Cam hook incident happened at Lumpy ridge- which is Granite.
The only reason I mentioned it was because the static fall he took that day may have had something to do with the failure on this fall.
He was using a standard hook on a BIG edge about 2 bolts up the ladder and maybe 10 ft off the HUGE ledge...MOST people use this hook to get through the blank section between bolts. And in fact he had used this hook at least 3 times before. He is also very Anti-cam hooks in sandstone.
Further more this guy is an EXTREMLY good friend of mine who YOU DON'T KNOW! He is also very humble and an excellent climber. You're lucky there is a computer between us right now.
How come everyone but you understood what was going on?
josh
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: We have used the tubular stuff before.... fatal flaw is one side will wear out much faster than the other side, and being tubular, leave you with some pretty sketchy looking webbing. I seems the "aider style" webbing gives a more even wear pattern and is overall thicker than the tube style. Maybe some tubular test models are in order..... I'll mull it over (unless Clyde has some quicky data for me????) adios, Russ
Could The "aider style" webbing be made into tubular? What about Spectra? Maybe some form of it that is a little more dynamic? Spectra is very wear resistant right?
Just brain storming....
josh
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: Nothing was amiss. He was using a technique known as short fixing. He did not clip any of the bolts because he was moving fast
Correct me if I'm wring but short fixing by nature does NOT mean you don't clip pro. I understand this guy was trying to speed things up even more by not clipping any pro but it's not correct in my opinion to suggest this is part of the definition of shortfixing. Shortfixing simply means you're taking off solo at the beginning of the next pitch before your partner arrives to put you on belay. If there's no pro between you and your partner when he finally puts you on belay that's your own choice but its not what defines shortfixing.
I'm not criticizing the guy. It sounds like he's more experienced climber than myself. However, I still think it might be fair based on everything that's being said to second guess the technique of running it way out while relying on nothing other than an adjustable daisy to catch you in the event of a fall. I bet your friend might now agree?
This is a good kick in the a$$ for a lot of us. Thanks for posting flamer.
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bandycoot
Dec 12, 2003, 7:15 PM
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I don't get the big deal. They aren't made for static falls. I would EXPECT them to fail under such conditions. As long as the climbing system is sound (the rope/anchor is still working) then I have no problem on Adjustable Daisys. Climbing is dangerous, and falls happen.
Josh
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iamthewallress
Dec 12, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Confession: In the interest of speeding things up, I've been achored many times only by adjustable daisies, sometimes whilst belaying a parnter who was running it out pretty far off the belay.
Josh, thanks for the wake up call. I've had the buckle totally fail on my adjustable aider after 7 pitches. I'm not going to quit using them, but I'll be more mindful of when the rope gets clipped.
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alpinestylist
Dec 12, 2003, 7:21 PM
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Yeeeehaaaw!!!
Schmackfest 101
So just to start off, I was with Flamer's bro, Marc. We have climbed together for 10 years now. To understate it, Marc is SOLID.
Another really good friend broke a ADC on Lost in America's 1st pitch and decked too, same scenario. I quite using them in 96.
To the details for you punks. Marc comes to bolt ladder. Clips one bolt, next move looks like hook, or mantle. Marc hooks, right as I arrive at belay. We had been soloing to this point, so I now hand Marc the live end of the cord. He was either tied in REAL long (one hook move wouldn't cause him to blink under normal circumstances) or on a clove right to the anchor. He starts to tie in so I can put him on, half way through tying in the whole edge just blows, he wasn't bouncing, shifting or anything.
WIthout knowing what happend Marc is flying, kicks me in the head, hits the ledge and keeps going. I grab all strands I can and arrest his fall bare handed (nooch, love you man). marc stops, dusts off, isn't fucked up stands back up and sends the shit out of space shot.
Don't think marc would have clipped rope to first bolt, not because we are super hard or anything, just doing are thing. Marc would have been fine if the daisy didn't explode.
I repeat I have a few friends that have done this, buyer beware.
Space shot was fun, wish I had free shoes.
Cheers,
Brent
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: In the interest of speeding things up, I've been achored many times only by adjustable daisies,
That's exactly what I was thinking Mel. For the sake of convenience I use them all the time as my only tie in point when not on lead. Think about walking around on a ledge tethered with your adjustabe daisy to a fixed line or as my attatchment to an anchor while rapping multiple stations. One slip of the foot would produce the kind of short fall on to the daisy that we'e talkign about. I'll continue to use them with piece of mind while leading but this thread suggest I should seriously reconsider how I use them at other times.
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alpinestylist
Dec 12, 2003, 7:25 PM
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PS- to all you fools that say you shouldn't fall on your daisy or to only rely on the rope I say.....
Keep aiding hoss! So by that rationale you probably shouldn't bounce test with them either?
I have taken dozens of daisy falls over the years, Marc's fall probably wasn't full length either, giving him the opportunity to generrate max force.
i'll pipe down with my pipe now
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: to all you fools that say you shouldn't fall on your daisy
Who said that? Not a single person in this thread said you shouldn't fall on a daisy. Multiple people have simply pointed out that adjustable daisys are not designed to withstand large falls and that there's a reason we use ropes clipped through gear in addition to the aid system. You think that the adjustable daisy should hold under these falls? I'm not a gear manufacturer so I don't have an answer. It would be very interesting to know whether Yates thinks the daisy in this case failed in an unusual manner or behaved according to expectations. Let us know if you find out an anser to that question.
Thanks
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crotch
Dec 12, 2003, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: half way through tying in the whole edge just blows, he wasn't bouncing, shifting or anything.
Out of curiousity, had it rained in the past day or two? I remember that edge seeming pretty solid.
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: half way through tying in the whole edge just blows, he wasn't bouncing, shifting or anything. Out of curiousity, had it rained in the past day or two? I remember that edge seeming pretty solid.
Brent thanks for chiming in Bro!! I didn't want to name, names....it's good to hear your perspective, since you were there and all!!
Thanks for "grabbing all the strands and arresting his fall"- It would kill me to not have his Steve Roper looking, super human bladder having a$$ around!
Just to clarify my reason for posting this was a simple heads up!!
HAVE FUN!!!
josh
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janr
Dec 12, 2003, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: Could The "aider style" webbing be made into tubular?
1" flat webbing is plenty strong enough. The FISH site gives the figure 3700 lbs for this type of webbing. But when you bend it over a tiny edge like in the ADC buckle, you're going to lose (not "loose" - pedantic gripe) a fair amount of strenth. Starting with stronger webbing might help, but I wonder if improvements could be made in the buckle. Perhaps you could replace the squared-off metal edge and teeth with a small rounded cam? A fancier, made-for-climbing buckle would increase the price though. Would you be willing to pay $30 or more for a stronger ADC?
In reply to: I've been achored many times only by adjustable daisies, sometimes whilst belaying a parnter who was running it out pretty far off the belay.
Kind of scary, Mel. I'm glad your partner never tested this arrangement. Do you still do this?
If a #3 stopper had failed in a fall like this, nobody would have blinked. But the strength rating for a small nut is about the same as for the Yates ADC. How hard do you think it is to generate 1500 lbs? Maybe that's why the manufacturers of aiders and daisies always add the dummy statement "for bodyweight only".
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copperhead
Dec 12, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Sorry, I had to edit this because I didn’t see the next page of responses… Doh!
Go figure. I never have trusted adjustable daisies and now you know why. The cam-buckle mechanism. Jeeze, I get gripped sometimes with four of them holding down my bike in my pickup. Why trust your life to only one of them? The cam-buckle is a mechanical weakness, as Russ said. I wouldn’t doubt it if webbing can be cut by the simple ‘pinching’ of the webbing, considering the amount of force generated in a static fall and the super-small surface area of buckle on webbing. The cam-pinch could probably cut the webbing without much tension (if any) on the webbing itself, but remember that this is hypothetical (in a climbing situation, it’s difficult to put 16 kN on the buckle and 0 kN on the webbing…). I don’t think it’s a sharp teeth or radius problem – it’s a pinching problem because that’s how the cam-buckle works. A single strand of webbing without a cam-buckle might have held his fall.
Yates should not be blamed in the least. They make excellent quality gear and the reason that the product failed was that it was used for a purpose that it was not designed for. Climbing gear has its limitations; beware of them.
PTPP used to preach about how he would untie from the lead-line and only use his daisies at the bivy; his daisies were adjustable, right? What if he slipped or his ledge taco’d and he generated some sort of static force on the daisy? Toast because he refused to stay tied-in? I have found the adjustable fifi to be more hassle than it’s worth; it just gets in the way.
Josh brings up a good point and that is about spectra. It is much more static (in behavior) than nylon webbing, though not quite as static as fat steel cable or chain. I guess the same can be said for equalizing dicey pieces on lead – don’t use spectra. The Yates ‘screamer’ daisies have a ‘shorty screamer’ attached at one end. Their catalog specifically recommends using a ‘shorty screamer’ in conjunction with their spectra daisies, for obvious reasons. The ‘shorty screamers’ will absorb 3-4 kN. If we start with 16 kN (the figure provided above (extreme case)) and subtract 4 kN, we still have 12 kN or almost 2700 lbs. That’s still enough to break the daisy.
Go with looped, nylon daisies. The one that I have here is 64” long and has 18 loops, excluding the end loops. It’s custom from Flagstaff. As far as I know, nobody makes daisies that are long enough. Russ? Another advantage of the looped daisy is that each bar-tack between the loops acts like a mini-screamer if you fall on a loop (with a biner). The tack (or all three/four) will blow and absorb some of the energy. Obviously, this is not the case when the daisy is clipped at full length.
Ok, I will be the one to say it. Daisy falls are bad – not recommended. I was working on a project a while back and was re-leading a pitch that I’d climbed several months before. I was moving onto a fixed #1 head (after testing it) and was still daisied to the hook just below me. I didn’t have time to remove the hook before… POP! The cable on the head snapped and I took a daisy fall onto the hook. It wasn’t full-length or factor 2 because I wasn’t that far above the hook. But still, with super-long daisies, I went for a little ride. No way! The hook held! What surprised me more was that the thin, hollow flake didn’t blow apart – I was gripped when hanging from the thing in the first place. Anyways, taking full-length (or near) daisy falls is not proper aid climbing technique. Avoid them. One of my friends has a video clip of a girl taking a static daisy fall as she neared the end of the first pitch of the Zodiac. Ouch! She was ok but the impact folded her in two, like a rag-doll. It is best to clip the rope into your lower piece as soon as you un-weight it. Unclip your daisy/aiders ASAP so that if the new piece pops, you’re on the rope and not the daisy. If your gear is dicey, the chances of it holding a fall are much better if you are falling on the rope and not the daisy, especially when there is a lot of rope out. Exceptions might be when on a string of run-out hooks with a dangerous fall – better to take a daisy fall than hit a ledge below (if the hook holds…).
As for the climbing scenario and the fall, yeah there are more risks associated with speed-climbing, but this one seems kinda silly. It sounds like he is lucky that he didn’t get hurt worse. I can see flying up a solid bolt ladder without clipping anything, but moving onto a hook while above a ledge? How much extra time would it have taken to slap a Neutrino draw on the last bolt before the hook move? Less than it took for him to regain his psyche and re-climb the bolts… Glad he is ok.
====
Ummm, now that I have read Alpinestylist’s report, I am confused. Did he clip the last bolt? Had you not grabbed all the strands, would he have gone the distance of the remaining rope that he was short-fixing on? Was the fall (after the daisy broke) due to the belay change-over?
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: Correct me if I'm wring but short fixing by nature does NOT mean you don't clip pro. However, I still think it might be fair based on everything that's being said to second guess the technique of running it way out while relying on nothing other than an adjustable daisy to catch you in the event of a fall. I bet your friend might now agree?
It does if you're only 2 moves up....so he wasn't running it way out.
Sorry if my original post wasn't totally specific.
Now that Alpinestylist has posted his version of events, hopefully things will seem more clear.
josh
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ricardol
Dec 12, 2003, 8:42 PM
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not surprised that a adj. daisy broke on a near factor 2 fall ..
.. add me to the list of folks who have taken static daisy falls .. i retired the adj. daisy after that fall.. (it was a yates one -- no visible damage .. but better safe than sorry) .. i use metolious daisies now ..
.. i also tie in with the adj. daisies at the belay -- but back it up with the lead line (significantly longer tie in that the daisies .. ) -- if i fall and the daisies break .. then the lead line will stop me ...
.. there is a significating convenience factor to being able to move around on the belay and adjust your tie in as you haul/make dinner/etc ..
-- ricardo
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gawd
Dec 12, 2003, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: YOU DUMB F**K!!! My friend wasn't using a cam hook!! The Cam hook incident happened at Lumpy ridge- which is Granite. The only reason I mentioned it was because the static fall he took that day may have had something to do with the failure on this fall. He was using a standard hook on a BIG edge about 2 bolts up the ladder and maybe 10 ft off the HUGE ledge...MOST people use this hook to get through the blank section between bolts. And in fact he had used this hook at least 3 times before. He is also very Anti-cam hooks in sandstone. Further more this guy is an EXTREMLY good friend of mine who YOU DON'T KNOW! He is also very humble and an excellent climber. You're lucky there is a computer between us right now. How come everyone but you understood what was going on? josh
how does personally insulting and threating a person prove your point. you should be banned for this. your attitude is pathetic and your willingness not to listen without attempting to put emotion into the situation warrants you as a weak person and probably a shitty climber to boot.
apparently your friend is not solid if he fell on a c1 bolt ladder and guess what more often then not solid climbers die from petty mistakes.
also like mr walling and mr soles i do not see this as suprising in any way. your inability to see this as a possible occurence and your friends inability to see this as a possible occurence again leads me to believe that both of you are short sighted climbers and this will result at some point in either your death or significant injury.
and how can a person not climb c1/.10 crack routes that are only 5 pitches long in short measure?
i fail to see you or your friend as good climbers.
listen and do not talk as you have nothing positive to contribute to the situation. you obviously have much to learn when it comes to climbing. so shut the fuck up.
thanks!
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russwalling
Dec 12, 2003, 8:54 PM
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###Go with looped, nylon daisies. The one that I have here is 64” long and has 18 loops, excluding the end loops. It’s custom from Flagstaff. As far as I know, nobody makes daisies that are long enough. Russ? ###
FISH has been making a "real" daisy for about a hundred years.... we call it the "Super Daisy" and it is just about 6 feet long. Sold some to BD employees 'cause theirs are too short! I have always said a daisy should be longer than your reach... so if you are tiny, adjust accordingly.
Plus, this was probably covered before in a long dead thread, but testing on your daisy chains is lame, inefficient at getting the force up, and dangerous. Anyone who is testing on an adjustable dasiy is just plain nuts.
adios,
Russ
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 9:14 PM
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I've bounce tested palcements with adjustable daisys. I'm certainly not nuts but there's always a good chance I'm ignorant and/or stupid. What am I risking in this scenario? Worst case scenario...the piece I'm testing pops and I fall on to the adj daisy on my lower piece. It breaks and I go a bit farther until the rope through that piece stops me. Is that what you're talking abut Russ? You lose a daisy but it doesn't seem significantly more dangerous than landing on a stronger non adjustable daisy. If anything it seems like shockloading a non adjustable daisy would be more likely to start zippering gear.
Or do you simply mean that a long of string of iffy placements can't be adequately tested because I can't generate enough force with adjustable an adjustable daisy.
What am I missing?
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copperhead
Dec 12, 2003, 9:19 PM
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In reply to: FISH has been making a "real" daisy for about a hundred years.... we call it the "Super Daisy" and it is just about 6 feet long. Sold some to BD employees 'cause theirs are too short! I have always said a daisy should be longer than your reach... so if you are tiny, adjust accordingly.
Cool, now I know where I can get new ones when all of mine have finally worn out. Thanks Russ!
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iamthewallress
Dec 12, 2003, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: The piece I'm testing pops and I fall on to the adj daisy on my lower piece.
If you're bounce testing a piece (I mean more than a little yank-yank with one foot to make sure it's set) aren't you pretty much tight (with a touch of wiggle) to your bottom daisy?
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: how does personally insulting and threating a person prove your point. you should be banned for this. your attitude is pathetic and your willingness not to listen without attempting to put emotion into the situation warrants you as a weak person and probably a s--- climber to boot. apparently your friend is not solid if he fell on a c1 bolt ladder and guess what more often then not solid climbers die from petty mistakes. also like mr walling and mr soles i do not see this as suprising in any way. your inability to see this as a possible occurence and your friends inability to see this as a possible occurence again leads me to believe that both of you are short sighted climbers and this will result at some point in either your death or significant injury. and how can a person not climb c1/.10 crack routes that are only 5 pitches long in short measure? i fail to see you or your friend as good climbers. listen and do not talk as you have nothing positive to contribute to the situation. you obviously have much to learn when it comes to climbing. so shut the f--- up. thanks!
First of all I'm pretty sure this is a Troll and so are you in general.
Second of all I'm at work and feeling kind'a spicy today so I'll answer you...for sport.
My point was easily proven because he was obviouly to stupid to read the original post(or maybe to understand it). There were what 10? other people who read it and understood perfectly. So Mr. slabbyd decide's to be insulting about it even though what he ASSUME'S happened was VERY OBVIUOSLY NOT WHAT HAPPENED!! So yes He gets the Dumb F**k of the day award!!
I never said I was surprised that an ADC would break under these circumstances. I posted more than once that I was simply giving people out there a reminder and a heads up.
And what kind of weak person and $hit climber RATS OUT THE ENTIRE CLIMBING COMMUNITY LIKE YOU DID IN YOSEMITE???
I never said anything about anyones climbing ability...until it was questioned..and then I simply defended a friend,,,who is a very good climber. And isn't here to represent himself.
So in short F**K YOU pansy.
You don't think I'm a good climber? Oh no the world has stopped moving, I must throw down my aiders and start doing Pilatte's...GAWD DOESN"T THINK I'M A GOOD CLIMBER!!
Plus BAD KARMA is flowing..
josh
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deleted
Deleted
Dec 12, 2003, 9:22 PM
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[quote:607140ee30="flamer"]Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Metolious aren't as strong as the Yates[/quote:607140ee30]
oh [b:607140ee30]great[/b:607140ee30]! so [b:607140ee30]now[/b:607140ee30] you tell me i'm hangin' my 200 pounds of solid steel and sex appeal on inferior gear! :lol: no more weights and protein shakes for [b:607140ee30]this[/b:607140ee30] wide-body.
russ -- thanks for chiming in; informative post.
clyde -- how's the aftermarket knee?
oh, and, gawd ... i can attest to the fact flamer's the [i:607140ee30]real deal[/i:607140ee30], buddy.
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: If you're bounce testing a piece (I mean more than a little yank-yank with one foot to make sure it's set) aren't you pretty much tight (with a touch of wiggle) to your bottom daisy?
Usually but sometimes I'm off to the side or somewhat above(not ideal) the piece that the lower daisy is connected to so at least in theory a short fall would be possible. Have you tested iffy placements with adjustables?
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gawd
Dec 12, 2003, 10:07 PM
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flamer
so you use being at work to justify your threat to another human being? that is very unstable way to think.
i do not see how someone's interpetation on your post shows them as a fucking asshole and requires you to attempt and or claim physical harm against them. those are the thoughts of an unstable/ dangerous person and i am sure these thoughts and actions can and will flow into the rest of your life, if they have not already.
please show me where i underminded climbers in yosemite. you have no actual proof. i read that as in fact you support a sexual predator and again this shows you are unstable.
one must believe in karma for it to be a reality, as said so by mahatma bhudda himself. i am not bhuddist or attempt to claim i am such. he also said "a person cannot half believe in a system of order without accepting the entire system." bhuddists are not violent people and therefore see you as a farce in your attempt to place blame and justice against me.
mtngeo i could careless who/what flamer is and the same goes for you. your attempt to name drop continually on this site is quite laughable. i am sure you are a nice person in life, but again i could careless.
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karlbaba
Dec 12, 2003, 10:30 PM
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I constantly test using my adjustable daisy and can't see how it would be remotely dangerous. It allows me to keep both feet in my aiders and grab those same aiders with both hands so that I don't go whipping around if the peice I'm testing blows. Falling back on the previous daisy isn't an issue.
If the piece is bomber, I usually know it already and don't need to wail on it. If the piece is dicey, I don't want much, much more than body weight on it anyway.
If it holds, I cut my feet out of my aiders and move em up to the next piece. That way, I've reduced cluster and if the piece blows then, I'm less likely to fall over backwards with my feet in the aiders.
After a step or two, I might backclean the previous placement, or might not, depending on all the circumstances. Where's the danger Russ? Adjustable daisies save a good deal of effort for a weak punk like me. I used looped ones for 15 years before switching and I'm not going back (although I'd consider using a combination)
Edit: I use looped daisies when free climbing, mainly to clip in the belay, particularly when switching rope ends. I always clip the rope into the belay, a bit looser, and like to stack the rope over the slight loop of rope between me and the belay. Aid climbing, I always clip the rope to the belay as well, unclipping to switch rope ends and manage things, usually while clipped in with two daisies.
Peace
karl
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: flamer so you use being at work to justify your threat to another human being? that is very unstable way to think. i do not see how someone's interpetation on your post shows them as a f---ing asshole and requires you to attempt and or claim physical harm against them. those are the thoughts of an unstable/ dangerous person and i am sure these thoughts and actions can and will flow into the rest of your life, if they have not already. please show me where i underminded climbers in yosemite. you have no actual proof. i read that as in fact you support a sexual predator and again this shows you are unstable. one must believe in karma for it to be a reality, as said so by mahatma bhudda himself. i am not bhuddist or attempt to claim i am such. he also said "a person cannot half believe in a system of order without accepting the entire system." bhuddists are not violent people and therefore see you as a farce in your attempt to place blame and justice against me. mtngeo i could careless who/what flamer is and the same goes for you. your attempt to name drop continually on this site is quite laughable. i am sure you are a nice person in life, but again i could careless.
HAHA!! Ok this is kind'a fun but only because you are such a GOOF!
I think I'll just leave it be.
Anyone with input about ADC's or this incident please feel free, sorry if this got off track.
josh
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 10:50 PM
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In reply to: It allows me to keep both feet in my aiders and grab those same aiders with both hands so that I don't go whipping around if the peice I'm testing blows.
Karl did a much better job of describing how I tend to used adjustable daisys to test. My ramblings about falling on to the lower aider were just designed to try and figure out what Russ was talking about. I was trying to imagine worse case scenario.
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crotch
Dec 12, 2003, 10:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: half way through tying in the whole edge just blows, he wasn't bouncing, shifting or anything. Out of curiousity, had it rained in the past day or two? I remember that edge seeming pretty solid. A good question...but also consider the THOUSANDS of people who have hooked that same edge, it could have just had enough and blown.
Sure. It might have just been time for the edge to blow, but still it would be nice to know if it had rained in the two days prior to the event.
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ricardol
Dec 12, 2003, 11:19 PM
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this is the same way i use the adj. daisies .. (sometimes testing with teh adj. daisies -- sometimes testing by wailing on the aider) ..
.. good description karl .. i was able to close my eyes an transport myself back to the big stone .. putting a dicey hook -- getting my weight on it ...cutting my feet .. hangin by my harness as i removed the last aider from the previous piece ... and then the sudden feeling of weightlessness (with a small tug at the waist) .. as the cam-hook above blew! ..
fun fun fun -- can't wait to next spring!
-- ricardo
In reply to: I constantly test using my adjustable daisy and can't see how it would be remotely dangerous. It allows me to keep both feet in my aiders and grab those same aiders with both hands so that I don't go whipping around if the peice I'm testing blows. Falling back on the previous daisy isn't an issue. If the piece is bomber, I usually know it already and don't need to wail on it. If the piece is dicey, I don't want much, much more than body weight on it anyway. If it holds, I cut my feet out of my aiders and move em up to the next piece. That way, I've reduced cluster and if the piece blows then, I'm less likely to fall over backwards with my feet in the aiders. After a step or two, I might backclean the previous placement, or might not, depending on all the circumstances. Where's the danger Russ? Adjustable daisies save a good deal of effort for a weak punk like me. I used looped ones for 15 years before switching and I'm not going back (although I'd consider using a combination) Edit: I use looped daisies when free climbing, mainly to clip in the belay, particularly when switching rope ends. I always clip the rope into the belay, a bit looser, and like to stack the rope over the slight loop of rope between me and the belay. Aid climbing, I always clip the rope to the belay as well, unclipping to switch rope ends and manage things, usually while clipped in with two daisies. Peace karl |
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Dec 12, 2003, 11:34 PM
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[quote:5336e7d636="gawd"]mtngeo i could careless who/what flamer is and the same goes for you. your attempt to name drop continually on this site is quite laughable. [/quote:5336e7d636]
gawd, i have no quarrel with you; why the vitriolic attitude? "name drop"? i have no idea of what you speak. if you would be so kind as to use the "quote" tool or cut and paste some examples in support of your claim, i'd appreciate it. i would suggest perhaps you have confused me with another user.
[quote:5336e7d636="gawd"]i am sure you are a nice person in life, but again i could careless.[/quote:5336e7d636]
no. i am not a nice person. my breath stinks, my feet smell, and i don't put the seat down. but since you don't "careless" it's a moot point, i suppose.
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russwalling
Dec 13, 2003, 12:26 AM
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##Where's the danger Russ?##
For one, it is always dangerous to have a piece of gear fail when it can be avoided, but.....
Clarification: BOUNCE testing. Sluping down a couple of times on your ADC is not the same thing. Here is the danger: massive string of junk..... inadequate string of slumping daisy tests.... daisy fails, fall out of lower aiders, rip all pieces. I prefer to not have the added excitement of a daisy failing or unproven pieces below me. Or, string of junk linked with hooks or the odd rivet..... daisy fails on a test of any kind..... giant ripper potential, even if the piece was good! With an ADC, I think you get to sample all these problems.
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alpinestylist
Dec 13, 2003, 1:05 AM
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So in all honesty this kind of sucks, that this string is now kinda wack
. Quick little weekender to Zion with a friend. Weather frosty but splitta, too much NPR at night, 3.2 slur in Utah. We climbed space shot cuz I never have. Marc had climbed it once before. He started at 5 pm (alone) and topped out about 2am. Not because he wanted to be cool and "night solo" but because the crowds were bad and he was stoked on the route. I thought that was cool, but with Marc, no big deal.
We had a mishap on the first aid pitch. He was short fixing. Stood on one bolt, stood up, placed a hook and weighted it. About that time my huffing, puffing 5 toed ass makes it to the ledge. Desperately thrashing with cord I tie a sharp end to his aider. Hey Marc, tie in! I yell. Without blinking he pulls up his aider and grabs the new cord.
PING! it all goes bad, I had interrupted his process. Maybe he would have clipped the first bolt, maybe not. He probably hadn't gotten that far in the decision making process.
Now he/I get some slag.
No worries, fun time. Like I said I have seen this happen with good friends before. I use looped daisys for this reason. While short fixing I don't know how much good clippin the first bolt would have been. Assuming (which in using them you do) that the daisy would not explode.
When I test on jive sections I try to get as low as possible, Extending the daisy to full length (normal daisy). Shorting up daisy slack in old piece, and furiously bounce. IF that goes well, THEN I'm in the aiders hopping to test. I expect my daisy to withstand this load. I agree that clipping the loweer piece as quick as possible is quite prudent. Withstanding odd scenarios like hooking. I've had hooks hold too on full daisy flyers.
Hope maybe some PC "ADC awareness" comes of this.
Everybody chill.
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karlbaba
Dec 13, 2003, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: ##Where's the danger Russ?## For one, it is always dangerous to have a piece of gear fail when it can be avoided, but..... Clarification: BOUNCE testing. Sluping down a couple of times on your ADC is not the same thing. Here is the danger: massive string of junk..... inadequate string of slumping daisy tests.... daisy fails, fall out of lower aiders, rip all pieces. I prefer to not have the added excitement of a daisy failing or unproven pieces below me. Or, string of junk linked with hooks or the odd rivet..... daisy fails on a test of any kind..... giant ripper potential, even if the piece was good! With an ADC, I think you get to sample all these problems.
Am I correct in assuming you're a funk tester then? Cause I don't see climbing in ladders on the piece and bouncing around being any safer.
If you really looking at leaving a long line of junk, it's going to rip under hard funking anyway, unless the climber is only leaving junk cause he doesn't know how to place gear.
Peace
Karl
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copperhead
Dec 13, 2003, 2:10 AM
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Funk-testing is jive.
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crotch
Dec 13, 2003, 2:48 AM
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In reply to: Funk-testing is jive.
Why? Does a mild funk put WAY more force on a piece than aggresive bouncing?
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wedgy
Dec 13, 2003, 4:25 AM
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On the failure : www.mountaintool.com go to "big wall" then "aiders" then "graduaiders/speed chains". They use 1" tubular nylon in a continuous piece, smooth/round titanium locking rings, and they don't slip. They have adjustable aiders and long nylon pocket daisies as well.
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russwalling
Dec 13, 2003, 5:28 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ##Where's the danger Russ?## For one, it is always dangerous to have a piece of gear fail when it can be avoided, but..... Clarification: BOUNCE testing. Sluping down a couple of times on your ADC is not the same thing. Here is the danger: massive string of junk..... inadequate string of slumping daisy tests.... daisy fails, fall out of lower aiders, rip all pieces. I prefer to not have the added excitement of a daisy failing or unproven pieces below me. Or, string of junk linked with hooks or the odd rivet..... daisy fails on a test of any kind..... giant ripper potential, even if the piece was good! With an ADC, I think you get to sample all these problems. Am I correct in assuming you're a funk tester then? Cause I don't see climbing in ladders on the piece and bouncing around being any safer.
I am not a funk tester. Thought about it and have a very interesting theory on it that is still secret.... maybe some day.
But, bouncing in aiders is safer and here is why: Testing in aiders gives more force on your tests = Safer stuff below you.
Bouncing in aiders means the only thing going to blow is your placement. I never need to worry about my daisy zippering (pocket type) or cutting (buckle type), or adding possible damage to a critical link in the safety chain. Dasiy chains should be bomber.... fresh is bomber (usually) and not being subjected to thousands of micro drop tests seems like the way to go on something I end up Jumarring on or using at/in an anchor.
To each his own.... but that is the way I do it and why.
Hey Karl... you in Josh now or what???
adios,
Russ
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karlbaba
Dec 13, 2003, 6:59 AM
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Nah, wish I was in Josh (I think) While it's often great climbing in Yosemite this time on year, it isn't this year. I have to "shudder" exercise just to keep the winter fat from overflowing my belt.
I'm hopin it clears up in time for a little winter crank up Serenity and Sons Midweek, but I'm hanging in Yosemite. I have to jump in the hot tub a couple times a day just to get my core temp back up!
Anyway, I'd like to make another Josh trip this year but I'm super tempted by Thailand. Now THAT's a winter climbing destination. I've decided Josh is 5 degrees warmer than Yosemite in Winter but 15 degrees windchill colder.
Doesn't mean I don't love it.
Yeah we can agree to do things our own way. It's not like we're dropping like flys from gear failure.
Unfortunately, my adjustable daisies might have seen enough walls that I'll have to dig in the other piggy and get a new set.
Peace
karl
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timstich
Dec 13, 2003, 7:03 AM
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In reply to: mtngeo i could careless who/what flamer is and the same goes for you. your attempt to name drop continually on this site is quite laughable. i am sure you are a nice person in life, but again i could careless.
Hi tito, al_pine, gawd! You sure get around to trolling a lot of different waters. For someone who could always care less, you sure care a lot that you get your piss ant opinion wedged in there.
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copperhead
Dec 13, 2003, 9:11 AM
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In reply to: I never need to worry about my daisy zippering (pocket type) or cutting (buckle type), or adding possible damage to a critical link in the safety chain.
Uhhhh,... am I to assume that your daisies are of similar type as the ABC freebies that I have? Instead of the traditional design, each loop has the top piece of webbing folded over such that the bar-tacks go through three layers of webbing instead of two. This design is better for longevity of the daisy (doesn’t separate first tack) when used on systematic A1 or as tentacles at belays or rap stations (stay tied-in when possible). For reasons that I explained earlier, I prefer to use a normal-looped daisy for leading and not the folded-loop style.
Russ, how do you “zipper” a looped daisy? Please explain that one to me.
Funk-testing theory?... Hmmmm.
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russwalling
Dec 13, 2003, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I never need to worry about my daisy zippering (pocket type) or cutting (buckle type), or adding possible damage to a critical link in the safety chain.
##Uhhhh,... am I to assume that your daisies are of similar type as the ABC freebies that I have?##
Not sure...my mindreading skilll are weak this time of year.
##Instead of the traditional design, each loop has the top piece of webbing folded over such that the bar-tacks go through three layers of webbing instead of two. This design is better for longevity of the daisy (doesn’t separate first tack) when used on systematic A1 or as tentacles at belays or rap stations (stay tied-in when possible).##
Sounds like an old Mt Tools product. Each loop was real strong and not a "pocket" like ours and other daisy chains. Each loop might have been full strength.
##For reasons that I explained earlier, I prefer to use a normal-looped daisy for leading and not the folded-loop style.##
Misssed all that.....
##Russ, how do you “zipper” a looped daisy? Please explain that one to me.##
If "looped" means like the "Super Daisy" style we make, it's easy. Clip into a pocket, test like a demon on/in your daisy, and start blowing pockets until you have one big runner loop. We had some dude return some daisy chains a while back because all the pockets got blow out during testing.... I quizzed him on his method. Seems he was putting his fifi hook into the pockets and bouncing, thus slicing right into the stitches. Not advised.....
Are we done with this yet? Go buy something on my site already!
adios,
Russ
Funk-testing theory?... Hmmmm.
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csoles
Dec 13, 2003, 6:58 PM
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In reply to: Seems he was putting his fifi hook into the pockets and bouncing, thus slicing right into the stitches.
LOL. That's why you should never build idiot-proof products...someone will always prove you wrong.
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janr
Dec 13, 2003, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: ##Russ, how do you “zipper†a looped daisy? Please explain that one to me.## If "looped" means like the "Super Daisy" style we make, it's easy. Clip into a pocket, test like a demon on/in your daisy, and start blowing pockets until you have one big runner loop.
But this isn't a problem if you get low in your aiders on your previous piece and test from the end of the daisy. Maybe that's not an efficient option with your extra long daisy?
But it might still be cause for concern with an adjustable. I just bought a pair of Yates ADCs recently, despite my uncertainties about strength and durability. Figured I'd give 'em a try and see for myself.
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copperhead
Dec 13, 2003, 8:50 PM
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Sorry, that was a bit cryptic. I was using the ABC ones as an example because I’m too lazy to search through every gear manufacturers' website to find out exactly who makes what. Yes, each loop is full-strength with this design.
Yeah, your fifi-test-chopping scenario is pretty obvious; I was thinking more along the lines of a single static fall (as we were discussing above) that generated enough force to rip every loop of the daisy – this doesn’t seem possible to me. Maybe you could rip a loop or two or three.
I don’t use a fifi – just two Petzl Spirits, one on each daisy, as close to my harness as possible.
Why so few loops on your daisies? 4.5” between the pockets doesn’t give you a whole lot of precision in daisy adjustment. This may not be a huge deal on easy aid but when you spend 20 minutes in an awkward position, trying to get a head to stick, it’s nice to be able to position yourself as best you can. These loops here are 2” in length and are more ‘open’ which makes it easier and quicker to stab a biner through the loop. Russ, I’m not trying to dis your gear – just my observations on the daisies. You make a bunch of cool stuff and who can argue with THE big wall booze muffler distributor for the world.
Not sure about your theory, but the reasons why I don’t funk test are:
- The forces generated by using a cable funkness device and a hammer are far more static than the forces generated by bounce-testing on an aider or daisy.
- These static forces can damage delicate placements and weaken them before you get on the piece (cable damage, rock damage, placement loosening, etc.).
- It is difficult to judge the amount of force generated in a funk-test, in relation to that generated by bounce-testing on an aider or daisy.
Aider-test (‘ease onto it’ or aggressive) 95% of the time.
Daisy-test 5% of the time.
I dunno; just my ramblings. Take it as you like.
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russwalling
Dec 14, 2003, 2:41 AM
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##Yeah, your fifi-test-chopping scenario is pretty obvious; I was thinking more along the lines of a single static fall (as we were discussing above) that generated enough force to rip every loop of the daisy – this doesn’t seem possible to me. Maybe you could rip a loop or two or three.##
I agree... the problem is with ADC's cutting and then being completely out of the system. With the pocket type you would need to blow it with a cross pocket clip to get out of the daisy.
##I don’t use a fifi – just two Petzpetzlrits, one on each daisy, as close to my harness as possible.##
No FiFi here either. I use a short loop from my belay donut and a big biner on the belay donut. It fits from the second steps to up tight on the piece.
##Why so few loops on your daisies? 4.5” between the pockets doesn’t give you a whole lot of precision in daisy adjustment. This may not be a huge deal on easy aid but when you spend 20 minutes in an awkward position, trying to get a head to stick, it’s nice to be able to position yourself as best you can.##
Ours used to be 6" apart. Whining (oops, customer input) got them changed to 4.5". Bottom line: all that mouse milking is just slowing you down... if 2" is making the difference for ya so be it... but I would suggest all aid climbers just get going.... moving your daisy a couple of inches either way and checking the sunset and looking up and looking around and giving a head a few taps and adjusting the daisy again just eats up time. Easy aid should be an end of daisy to waist clip, and a 20 minute head placement should be more about the placement and less about the +/- 2" a pocket might yeild in comfort. Not to brind up a "I used to live in a wet paper bag" story, but I tried to get a piece to stick for 2.5 hours once..... Never did get it to stick. Guess what? I have no idea what loop I was in on my daisy and I'm positive it would have made zero difference in the outcome. Too many options are just a device to slow down progress.
While I'm on this rant..... who do you think would go faster per placement:
A guy with 9 step aiders and a 12ft daisy chain with loops every 2 inches or a guy with a pair of 3 step aiders and a one loop daisy chain that is 5ft long?
##These loops here are 2” in length and are more ‘open’ which makes it easier and quicker to stab a biner through the loop.##
I know the design you are talking about.
##Russ, I’m not trying to dis your gear – just my observations on the daisies. You make a bunch of cool stuff and who can argue with THE big wall booze muffler distributor for the world.##
No prob. Dis at will. Sometimes it even gets gear changed.
##Not sure about your theory, but the reasons why I don’t funk test are:
- The forces generated by using a cable funkness device and a hammer are far more static than the forces generated by bounce-testing on an aider or daisy.##
True....in fact, way true.
##- These static forces can damage delicate placements and weaken them before you get on the piece (cable damage, rock damage, placement loosening, etc.).##
True again.
##- It is difficult to judge the amount of force generated in a funk-test, in relation to that generated by bounce-testing on an aider or daisy.##
Somewhat true.... I guess if you funked all the time you could get a feel for it.... so they say and I tend to believe them. Plus, remember, I don't funk test. I just happen to have a theory on it that may revolutionize hard aid climbing. (giant lie, but if it works out, I'll really be onto something.)
##Aider-test (‘ease onto it’ or aggressive) 95% of the time.
Daisy-test 5% of the time. ##
I'm more of a 96.894% guy with the rest going to the daisy or just falling out of the aiders.
adios,
Russ
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justsendingits
Dec 14, 2003, 1:56 PM
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In reply to: It's probably a good idea to uses those screamer daisies when they is a chance you'll crash back down to the last piece. At least unclip the previous daisy after you've finished testing and are stepping up. You can alway still back-clean the last piece after moving up a step or two with no daisy but still clipped through the piece with a dynamic rope Peace Karl
I have used up many of these screamer daisies on routes,they don't seem to last long for me,if you don't pull the webbing even thru the buckle,it will cut little notches in the side of the webbing.
This will definitely compromise the integrity of the daisy!!Plus the adj. daisy can be a frustrating if you don't keep the webbing straight,you must make sure that there is no twist in the webbing,otherwise you can not adj. it all the way up so you can get close to the piece.
With the Yates adj. screamer,you are already farther away from the piece than you want to be due to extra length of the screamer.
I have been experimenting with new trad. daisy systems and fi-fi,I think I will ditch the fi-fi though.
I always get my daisy off my last piece(or as soon as I can) before I commit to my new piece that I have tested.I mean even if I have a daisy that is rated at 20,000lbs,I don't want to yank the cable off the head of that bomber #9 nut.
for those of you that continue to use adj. daisies,make sure and tie in to the belay with the rope, or something else that is safe!!!
Thanks for all the input from everybody!!!
R
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karlbaba
Dec 14, 2003, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: Why so few loops on your daisies? 4.5” between the pockets doesn’t give you a whole lot of precision in daisy adjustment. This may not be a huge deal on easy aid but when you spend 20 minutes in an awkward position, trying to get a head to stick, it’s nice to be able to position yourself as best you can. These loops here are 2” in length and are more ‘open’ which makes it easier and quicker to stab a biner through the loop. Russ, I’m not trying to dis your gear – just my observations on the daisies. You make a bunch of cool stuff and who can argue with THE big wall booze muffler distributor for the world.
This is exactly why the adjustable daisies are so great. They put you right where you want ot be with the least possible effort. This can help with speed and mostly with effort. It wears on your arms to keep unweighting and stabbing at daisy loops.
I just ain't that strong. I'm often leading and hauling every pitch. I have ot conserve my pathetic guns! I use the rope to protect me from falls and my daisy to protect me from burnout.
Everyone is welcome to do it their own way. Once in awhile I'll try somebody else's way even though I was set in mine. Sometimes they were right. That's what moved me to using frs radios and adjustable daisies. I'll try the Russian Aiders when the F- man puts em on sale.
Peace
karl
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justsendingits
Dec 14, 2003, 4:29 PM
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I'll try the Russian Aiders when the F- man puts em on sale.
Peace
karl
I will second that emotion!!!
I guess I will try to make some Russian aiders before spring ifin they are not available.
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dsafanda
Dec 14, 2003, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: So in all honesty this kind of sucks, that this string is now kinda wack
I disagree. This is a great thread!! Lots of interesting input on both sides of the adjustable vs. standard daisy issue from some very experienced wall climbers.
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mikeehartley
Dec 15, 2003, 2:24 PM
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I agree! As someone who has gone back and forth with both systems I've found this to be a great, informative thread. This kind of info is the only reason I continue to wade through the flamer/gawd type of kindergarten/AM talk radio crap. Thanks Russ, Baba, Copperhead, et al!
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glockaroo
Dec 15, 2003, 6:23 PM
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About a million years ago I was on the first pitch of "Panic Value" at Looking Glass, NC. I was 2 moves from the first bolt, hanging from a bathook and looking at a pathetic fixed #1 duckbill before I could snag that bolt. The best piece in the string below me was a #0 TCU that was about 1/2 way engaged w/ the rock.
I tested then got onto the duckbill. Before I could remove the bathook, the duckbill blew out and I took about a factor 1 fall onto the bathook. It held.
The fall knocked the breath out of me but there was no further damage. The daisy was a traditional design by Misty Mountain.
So yes, if it was an ADC that broke I probably would have been severely injured in the resulting screamer fall, since this all was happening above a blocky ledge. I was lucky that the relatively static daisy held the fall without hurting me. Didn't a guy crack some ribs on the Shield recently in a daisy fall?
I suspect the best compromise might be to use a bomber nylon pocketed daisy in conjuction with a shorty Yates Screamer, then clip the pockets w/ a bentgate keylock biner (like Copperhead's Petzl Spirit, which I also use 2 of by the way).
Perhaps it wouldn't be too impossible to develop a design like the Metolius ADC but with larger webbing-bearing surfaces and stronger webbing, plus tweak the angles so that the buckles slip at a reasonable level of force. Pie in the sky...
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nafod
Dec 15, 2003, 7:34 PM
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I'd tell him to send John Yates an email (from his web site). He'd probably like to take a look at it to determine failure mode. There's always a way to make things better.
Mike
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johnyates
Dec 16, 2003, 2:51 AM
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:?: Guy's this is the first an adjustable daisy that I know of that has failed in the field? This does not suprise me though. The force generated in a FF2 full length daisy fall can surely exceed the 1500-1800lbf rated strength of the device. In fact they always fail as this gent's did by cutting the webbing at the buckle. The cam buckles work much like a jumar cutting the rope in a fall. I have been using the current buckle for four years now with no failures, what is interesting though is that last year we did increase the length of the daisy by about SIX inches. (Because of winers)This could be why no one previously was ably to brake one. I have always said that you COULD bust one on a full length daisy fall. I made the Adjustable Daisy with the built in SCREAMER for Dean Potter when he was doing his aid solo antics. I could not get a daisy to NOT FAIL when I did a FF2 3/4 length drop test with my 220 lb dummy without a screamer attached. The main effect of the screamer in the daisy is to reduce the peak loading of deceleration. That is why I personally feel there on no place in aid climbing for SPECTRA daisy's. They are way to static. I could make a daisy that would never cut the webbing and would slip and DECELERATE you at a prudent load, say 1,000lbf, Maybe I will give it some thought, It would work on the same principal as the ROCKER rope grab. Interesting thought!!!
I hope the guy sends me the daisy that failed, and I hope he did not get hurt to bad,
Cheers,
John Yates
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iamthewallress
Dec 16, 2003, 3:00 AM
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In reply to: I could not get a daisy to NOT FAIL when I did a FF2 3/4 length drop test with my 220 lb dummy without a screamer attached.
Now that's a helpful stat to know about!
Thanks for your thoughtful response to this.
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flamer
Dec 16, 2003, 3:13 AM
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In reply to: I hope the guy sends me the daisy that failed, and I hope he did not get hurt to bad,
John,
Your comments are greatly appreciated!! It's always good to hear the facts from "the horse's mouth".
I'm curious about any failure's you may have had using the ADC with the screamer attached?? Have you done the same test's as with the standard ADC?? Some stats on this would be most helpful!
I will talk to my friend and see if he'll send the one that failed to you- or are you going to be at the Ouray Ice fest? If so maybe I'll bring it to you.
Josh
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dirko
Dec 16, 2003, 4:28 AM
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I'm cheered to see a thread where intelligent discussion prevails over mindless banter. This has been very informative. Thanks, guys, esp. John!
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crackboy
Dec 16, 2003, 8:16 AM
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yea , makes me feel good about being a small guy.
just picked up a pair of the adjustable daisies today, can't wait to test them out on something. and get some practice aid in.
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johnyates
Dec 16, 2003, 5:19 PM
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Josh,
I only did a couple drop tests with Screamer and can't remember what exact length of webbing I had out. I will do some more tests this winter when the weather is good and post them on my web site. The drop tower I have allows for the worst case test because it is free air overhang type set up. I can strip some weights off the test dummy to get it down to 180-200 lbs. What I need to do is let's say use 80kg(180lbs) and do drops at progressive intervals until the daisy snaps, with and without the Screamers attached to give us a base line of worst case synerio's.
Cheers,
John Yates
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dsafanda
Dec 16, 2003, 6:41 PM
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Much appreciated info. Thanks so much J.Yates!
This kind personal involvement on the part of the manufacturer himself is what makes Yates(and Fish too) a great gear company. IMHO
I think most of us here would love to know more about worst case scenario tests if you do more of them this winter. It would be great to be able to compare drop test results between your adj daisy, adj daisy with screamer and conventional daisy.
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brianinslc
Dec 16, 2003, 8:46 PM
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In reply to: I could not get a daisy to NOT FAIL when I did a FF2 3/4 length drop test with my 220 lb dummy without a screamer attached.
Geez, that could be me everytime I bounce test a placement...!
I've taken two pretty hard adj. daisy falls. In neither situation, did I rip the gear or the daisy...and...at 100 kilos, I think I might be puttin' some load in the system. Nylon instead of spectra, and maybe a looser cinch knot must add some dynamics into the system, at least enough to reduce some of the peak loading...thank goodness...
John, thanks for the post. Have really been enjoying my Shield harness, the sofa lounger for sure, and my back's never felt better on a wall. Shorty screamers rule.
Hopefully you'll be around SLC for OR in Jan...see ya then...
Brian in SLC
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timpanogos
Jan 3, 2004, 8:41 PM
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I'm confused on the short fix technique used here. Why would the second be tieing (handing) the sharp end to the leads aider (all while he is standing on a hook)? Was this just because the lead was so close to the station and it saved rope handling for the lead?
Doesn't the lead usually pull up the loose end of his self belay and tie off on this end, then feed the free rope back to the belayer? One advantage, I suppose, of a grigri self belay, is the ease of passing back the free rope while remaining tied in as well as on the original grigri self belay.
Why the hurry to tie-in on the hook? Why the lead rope end switch?
What am I missing here?
Chad
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flamer
Jan 3, 2004, 8:57 PM
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In reply to: I'm confused on the short fix technique used here. Why would the second be tieing (handing) the sharp end to the leads aider (all while he is standing on a hook)? Was this just because the lead was so close to the station and it saved rope handling for the lead? Doesn't the lead usually pull up the loose end of his self belay and tie off on this end, then feed the free rope back to the belayer? One advantage, I suppose, of a grigri self belay, is the ease of passing back the free rope while remaining tied in as well as on the original grigri self belay. Why the hurry to tie-in on the hook? Why the lead rope end switch? What am I missing here? Chad
They were both free soloing to this point- nobody was tied in. I can't clear up anything else...sorry I talked to my buddy just the other day---From the sounds of it they were just charged up and going fast- bujt that's my take on it.
josh
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timpanogos
Jan 3, 2004, 9:21 PM
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Flamer/all,
Thanks for this thread! I love my adjustables and use them extensively (and still will). For me, time to move to a new pair (no more, ah there good for one more). Love them at the stations, but always stay tied in (I always do anyway). New realization of there fail ratings
Sounds like a couple of other leasons might be hidden here:
1. Get on a C1 placement before going from solo block lead to belayed - no rush.
2. Take a breath at those belay stations, make sure all is well, give the second time to settle in and organize a bit before relying on a partnered belay.
3. As mentioned here several times - adjustable daisies are part of the movement system not fall protection. It was nuts to daisy aid onto a hook with no roped belay at all!
I'm glad your friends were not hurt.
Chad
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whenindoubtrunitout
Mar 12, 2004, 12:19 PM
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I'm not familiar with the Yates Daisy, but I used a Pika Daisy on El Cap a few years back and had what sounds like a similar problem. The Pika adjustable daisy utilizes a spring-loaded cam buckle on two flat webbing daisies. The problem I encountered was rare but catastrophic whenever it happened... and it happened 2-3 times in the course of a Grade V. The cam buckle lever would occassionally rest agaist a small rock protrusion, and upon being weighted would open up and allow the webbing to suddenly slide through at a high rate of speed with my weight on it. It would obviously come to a sudden stop when 1) my (then higher) foot would come to a stop in the tangled mess at chest height or 2) the other webbing's knot jammed against the buckleshock-loading the entire system which occassionally sent me for a ride. Not fun!
A really bummer because I like adjustable daisies so much. The good news for Metolius adjustable daisy users is that they don't use that kind of fancy locking mechanism. A case of simple (and slightly more archaic looking) is more reliable.
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whenindoubtrunitout
Mar 12, 2004, 12:25 PM
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I'm not entirely sure I understood what was going on in your stated scenario, either. But I thought I would impart a bad experience I had with an ADC in the event that it might help.
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atg200
Mar 12, 2004, 4:19 PM
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that happened to me with the pika daisys on the hindu near moab, and it scared the hell out of me. the yates design is much better for the trigger than the pika. since then, i've just been very very careful about orienting the daisy trigger away from the rock with no twists and i've had no trouble.
awful feeling though, isn't it?
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joebuzz
Mar 21, 2004, 9:44 AM
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Posts: 107
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Just my .02 cents... I use a sort of home made adjustable daisy. Actually, it's just a Ropeman ascending device, positioned up side down on a length of 9 mil. cord tied to my harness. Each of my aiders have a standard BD spectra daisy. I've used this setup for a handful of years already and still love it. I've bounced like hell on the thing and even taken a couple of falls onto it and no probs so far. Anyway, if it were to fail, the spectra daisies without the bother of a fifi act as back up. The Ropeman also turns back into an ascender if I ever need it to, so it's multi-purpose too.
I love it!... Buzz
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piton
Mar 23, 2004, 1:36 PM
Post #85 of 85
(9539 views)
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Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1034
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i really don't understand how the daisy falls happens? i would think if there was a chance of falling on the daisy you would add a shorty to the daisy to decrease the force. a fall like that can even break your back.
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