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markguycan
Feb 12, 2004, 6:13 AM
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any recommendation on the best and/or most affordable hand drill vs power drill?
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mungeclimber
Feb 12, 2004, 7:19 AM
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Roc Peckers which I don't think are made any more have a short handle so it doesn't push you away from the wall as much.
The alternative is to saw off the end of the bit.
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Feb 12, 2004, 3:16 PM
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heck, pretty much [i:6f15f301ba]any[/i:6f15f301ba] hand drill is gonna' be less than a power drill. :lol:
pika makes (or [i:6f15f301ba]made[/i:6f15f301ba], i dunno; they're on shaky corporate ground right now) some good stuff. and you can't go wrong with petzl.
good to see there's still folks out there going for the hand drill and keepin' it real. power drills are fer girls.
*no offense, ladies*
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shorty
Feb 12, 2004, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: good to see there's still folks out there going for the hand drill and keepin' it real. power drills are fer girls. *no offense, ladies*
The Bosch and I are definitely going to play in a different sandbox.
I like the pika drill, as it uses the same SDS bits as *ahem* MR. Bosch. It's a nice backup if the batteries are gone.
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lazide
Feb 12, 2004, 4:03 PM
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Unfortunately Hurricane mtn works has gone out of business, and no one seems to carry the drills anymore. (believe me, I have looked around!)
I try to avoid Pika, as generally anything from them is total CRAP. Petzl seems like the most likely thing, but I have heard the Roc pecker is pretty light weight and won't hold up to too much heavy use.
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jer
Feb 12, 2004, 4:09 PM
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I have tried others, and my Pika is holding on strong.
Back up the connection tube for the allen wrench with some duct tape.
My buddy broke his cable somehow...if this happens send it back quick, or swage it. I borrowed his once and simply used some skinny cord instead.
I use a battery powered hand drill ;) where it's legal to, but it doesn't make me quite as strong as my hand drill. Seriously, the should have blocks at the gyms to hand drill on. Talk about pumped!
I don't like the look of size/material/quality of the handle on the petzl...but I haven't tried it.
Jer
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dingus
Feb 12, 2004, 4:23 PM
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I like my pecker. It gets the job done.
Nice handle. Good wrist keeper leash. A little hole in the rubber handle to store a drill bit when packing. Collette (sp?) bit lock (no freaking set screws or tools required to change a bit), just like on a bosch. Takes the same bits as the power drill. Which, for 3/8" bit length means you lose the advantage of the "shortness" of the handle. The damn drill bit is too long but I haven't found any shorter ones. But at what under 50 bucks it was a helluva buy on top of that.
DMT
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scubasnyder
Feb 12, 2004, 4:30 PM
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the petzl roc pec is nice
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deleted
Deleted
Feb 12, 2004, 5:13 PM
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[quote:4983f3debc="shorty"]
/smooths skirt over knees/
The Bosch and I are definitely going to play in a different sandbox.[/quote:4983f3debc]
hahaha! i [i:4983f3debc]knew[/i:4983f3debc] that would draw you out, hoser!
bite me. :lol:
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brianinslc
Feb 12, 2004, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: I like my pecker. It gets the job done.
I don't think I want to, ahem, touch that one...
In reply to: The damn drill bit is too long but I haven't found any shorter ones.
Try REI. For a search (in case the below link doesn't work) try "Petzl 10mm".
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47612285&parent_category_rn=4500708
These are 4" drills. And, in the nice 10mm size, which, after you use them awhile, will grind down to 3/8". More useful life...and, seats a 3/8 powerbolt just fine (as the cone is bigger than 10mm anyhoo).
You can cut down a regular 6" drill, but, the bottom of the shaft is a tad large and you lose the carbon insert. For soft rock, though, they work great (I've used mine in the sandstone of Zion, perfecto).
That 4" bit really snugs in nice in the handle. Small package. Next to the definition of "emergency bolt kit" in the dictionary, is a picture of a Petzl roc pecker with a short drill bit nested in...(nice that the 1/4" and 5/16" SDS bits come in the shorter lengths too, and, in combo with an aluminum hanger and a 1/4" Hilti stud bolt, that's a lightweight see ya later bail package).
Brian in SLC
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climbbaja
Feb 12, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: And, in the nice 10mm size, which, after you use them awhile, will grind down to 3/8". More useful life...and, seats a 3/8 powerbolt just fine (as the cone is bigger than 10mm anyhoo). |
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brianinslc
Feb 12, 2004, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And, in the nice 10mm size, which, after you use them awhile, will grind down to 3/8". More useful life...and, seats a 3/8 powerbolt just fine (as the cone is bigger than 10mm anyhoo). Please do not follow that dangerous advice. Never use a larger drill for an expansion type bolt. 10mm is larger than 3/8". Additionally, hand drilling will tend to make a larger diameter hole than power drilling.
What's dangerous about it? Never is a pretty long time.
10mm = .3937 inches.
3/8" = .375 inches.
Cone on a typical Power bolt measures over .400 inches (I recall measuring a bunch and I think I was gettin' .404"). The cone gets smashed, going into the hole so, adapts to whatever the hole diameter is. On hard rock, in tight holes, I sometimes "smush" the cone to get it into the hole without havin' to beat the crud out of it. Especially in quartzite, a 10mm hole is pretty nice as its easy to drive the shaft of the bolt right thru a cone in a tight hole.
How is the difference in .0187 inch going to make any appreciable or measureable difference??
The first hole you drill, that 10mm drill bit will wear in diameter. Doesn't take long for the carbon insert, especially in harder rock, to wear pretty quickly. Will be below 10mm in no time.
I'd argue that a looser than tighter hole is better, as you need space for the sleeve to fit over the cone. If the cone is smashed into the bolt, you get a spinner. The key for an expansion bolt to work well, I think, is that the cone needs to engage the side wall of the hole, and the sleeve needs to fit over the cone and tighten (which happens when the cone stays put, and the bolt can turn).
We're not talkin' about drilling a 1/2" hole for a 3/8" bolt. Its a very small difference in diameter.
If you can torque the bolt down (to spec, of course) and an expansion bolts sets, then what's the issue? Not effecting tensile strength or shear.
Brian in SLC
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shorty
Feb 13, 2004, 1:50 AM
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The topic has changed somewhat from hand vs. power drill, but I'll throw in a comment from the peanut gallery about diameters. This is based on my experience with both Bosch and Pika in granite (over 400 bolts within the last 3 years).
Virtually all of our bolts are Fixe, and drill bits are usually Bosch or Petzl. Last year, in a desperate moment for more bolts when it seemed everyone was out of 3/8", the Fixe rep suggested we try some 10mm hardware he had in stock. Over time we eventually confused sizes and placed 10mm bolts in 3/8" holes, and 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes.
I can attest that pounding a 10mm x 95mm double wedge Fixe bolt into a 3/8" hole (especially with an old bit) can test the patience of a saint and bring about the cursing of a sailor. This is a very tight fit.
I can also state that trying to tighten a 3/8" x 2.5" single wedge Fixe bolt in a 10mm hole (especially with a new bit) has its own challenges. Like trying desperately to get the bolt to stop spinning and to engage the expansion wedge.
Bottom line -- they both worked and have held falls without problems, but it has been best for us to match bit and bolt sizes. It's faster and much less hassle.
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climbbaja
Feb 13, 2004, 7:46 AM
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In reply to: brianinslc writes: Cone on a typical Power bolt measures over .400 inches (I recall measuring a bunch and I think I was gettin' .404").
Yes, I get figures of .400" to .404" as well, however that is on the slotted and compressible flange of the cone. Measuring the adjacent solid part of the cone yields a substantially smaller diameter, .366" to .370" (smaller than 3/8"). The slotted end flange on the cone is designed to secure the bolt with compression to provide resistance until the bolt is torqued. The slots interfere with the structural integrity and were not designed to provide primary load bearing strength.
In reply to: brianinslc writes: The first hole you drill, that 10mm drill bit will wear in diameter. Doesn't take long for the carbon insert, especially in harder rock, to wear pretty quickly. Will be below 10mm in no time.
I agree with that, only your first dozen holes with that bit will be too big (and the first dozen bolts not installed to specification, hence, potentially dangerous).
In reply to: brianinslc writes: How is the difference in .0187 inch going to make any appreciable or measureable difference??
The engineers at Powers (formerly Rawl), have listed installation specs. Are you saying that they are wrong? You might also check on the standards set by the ASTM/ANSI. Somehow, I think they will say the 3/8" Power-Bolt goes in a 3/8" hole and "NEVER" in a 10mm hole.
Again, I submit that you are providing technical misinformation which could result in a dangerous condition. Particularly if someone accepted your advice and installed a 3/8"bolt on medium-soft rock with a 10mm bit (or a wobbly hand drill on hard rock). If you disagree, then please post a link to one official document which says 3/8" Power-Bolts should be placed in 10mm holes, or even that the holes should be larger than the installation specs call for. If you can't back up your suppositions, then perhaps, in the interest of safety, we should each remove our posts referring to 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes.
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 8:54 AM
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:(
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: To brianinslc -- I have to agree totally with climbbaja. If you don't know how to follow manufacturers specs you have no business installing bolts. The cone on a Power bolt is not designed to be pulled entirely in to the sleeve. If the hole is drilled too large you will NOT get the proper compression against the sidewall of the hole and pull out strength is greatly diminished when the sleeve expands. Also as the bolt screws all the way to the end of the cone (the part with the cuts in it) this end is supposed to re-expand against the hole also. This too will be compromised if the hole is too large. If you can't do it right give your gear to someone who can.
I'm pretty familiar with the manufactoring specs. I realize that we're not exactly installing expansion bolts into certain types of concrete, are we? Show me the powers guide to installation of expansion bolts for rock climbing. Yeah, there ain't one.
Show me your data whereby, if I can get the proper installation torque on a Powers expansion bolt in a hole drilled by a 10mm drill bit, that I've reduced the pull out strength, to back up your statement of "greatly diminished". Yeah? You have no data? Ok, neither do I...
Rock is much more variable than the concrete testing that's done for the specs concerning installation of expansion bolts.
With a power drill in rock, you don't know what you have at the bottom of that hole for the cone to bite into. Might be bell shaped. Very common for a drill bit to overspin and pick up harder rock bits, which bore the hole to a bigger diameter (especially if you don't routinely stop and clean out the hole a bunch prior to boring to full depth). Now, that's something I have measured (driveway rock, crack in half, measure diameter and look at cone seating).
I'd make the arguement that a slowly drilled hole, done by hand, more often than not in the bottom of the hole where the cone bites, is more consistantly closer to the "proper" diameter than a power drill. I get way more "spinners" with a power drill than I ever have by hand, especially in softer rock. Of course I have more data points from power drilling too.
How do you ever know that you're gettin' "proper compression" with an expansion bolt even using a 3/8" drill bit? Eh? Have you got test data for the rock type you're drilling and filling? Or, do you snug down the bolt and hope for the best? That's all anyone is doing.
My argument still is that 10mm versus 3/8" drill bit doesn't matter for 3/8" expansion bolts. Lets get some data to back up either for or against.
The minute you drill a phemtoinch with any bit, it wears down. How many 3/8" drill bits have you measured? Are they 3/8" new? After one hole how big are they?
Expansion bolts aren't that finicky. They could care less what the absolute hole diameter is. As long as they seat to the proper installation torque, what else matters? There's enough variation in drill bit diameter (cutting surface across the carbide insert) among different drill makers (diff between Dewalt, Bosch, and Hilti bits, measure them new then cut a few holes with them) that the cones on an expansion bolt have to be able to account for diffferences in hole diameters.
In hard rock, I've been unable to seat 10mm studs in 3/8" holes...
Brian in SLC
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 5:16 PM
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:(
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: To brianinslc: If you are not even bothering to use the proper size drill bit, I doubt you are really using a torque wrench either. If you are, the false reading on the torque wrench is coming from the end of the expansion sleeve butting against the groove in the cone, just before it flares out at the tip, and not from expansion against the side wall of an over sized hole. Powers installation specs call for a 3/8 bit with tolerances that do not exceed ANSI Standard B212.15. Even with a 3/8 bit you are not supposed to use it forever. If you can't afford a new bit every 12 to 15 holes ask for donations. Here is the Powers web site. Why don't you contact them and ask them. If they say its ok to use a 10 mm bit then we'll shut up. http://www.powers.aus.as/us/
Yeah, placed a quick call to Austraila...they said, "yer doin' what with our bolts? Placing them for rock climbing? We can't recommend that".
So, I guess YOU should stop climbing on all power bolts, 'cause they aren't meant to be used for rock climbing...
You know, according to Powers, the Power-bolt is "ideal for applications such as mounting machinery...".
I've used a torque wrench. I've never seen anyone use them installing any type of bolt in the field. Have you? I don't use one "in the field" either. No one does.
I seriously doubt, that out of the jillions of bolts in service, that ANY one who places them, is mikin' their drill bits after drilling a hole. Have you EVER seen anyone measure their drill bits whilst installing bolts? Have you? I have, but, way after the deed is done.
Do you know what the tolerances are for a 3/8" drill bit? It ain't .375... I doubt hardly anybody that installs bolts has read the ANSI.
Have you ever seen or produced a cross section of rock to understand how all this really works? You can read all the manuals and specs you want. Seein' is believing.
Now come on, convince me. Gimme something more than "call Powers". We don't even come close to meeting minimum margins of safety for climbing hardware. No way folks who produce masonry drills or expansion bolts for use in industrial applications are going to recommend that we use their hardware for rock climbing.
You do bring up a good point, though, that folks ought to cycle out their old bits instead of keep resharpening them until the insert falls out... Which, is why it makes more sense to start out with a 10mm drill bit...ha ha...
There's only a teeny diff in diameter, and it doesn't make any appreciable difference in performance. Plus, Powers doesn't make drill bits, but Hilti does. And the local Hilti dealer here orders in them 10mm bits no problemo...
Its the real world baby, not some spec or installation manual, neither of which were ever meant for rockclimbing. Some of us will learn what we can from them, then apply it in the field. And them bolts don't care as long as they snug down.
Brian in SLC
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 6:28 PM
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:)
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: We're more picky than most, but most bolters are way too casual. All I'm trying to say is that bolts are not just for you. You owe it to the climbing community not to be a cheap skate. Do it right. If money is the issue ask other climbers for donations.
I'm anything but casual about my bolting.
Here's another point...
Pull out strength is a function of what? Surface area. Surface area in a drilled hole is a function of what? Hole diameter. Hence, a bigger hole diameter will be a stronger placement and yield more pull out strength.
10mm drill bits from Hilti cost way more than a $3 Bosch or Dewalt, so the issue for me isn't money. 10mm bits just drill a better hole, especially in hard rock. And, they are more functional, in that they allow to install either a 10mm bolt, stud or 3/8" expansion bolt.
Doin' what makes most practical sense, is, oddly enough, what makes most sense, rather than burying your head in rock dust.
Need data, though. So, here's a plan. If I can find a suitable block to drill a couple of holes in, one with a new 3/8" bit, the other with a 10mm bit, install a 3/8" power bolt into each, and pull them to failure, would that work? If I got higher test numbers with the 10mm drill bit, would you switch over?
Have you done any testing on the strength of your placements for pull out? If not, how do you know YOU are "doin' it right"? Geez, if a feller is willing to hump a torque wrench to the crag, a load cell couldn't be that much more of a hassle... How do you know what data do you have?
And your right, most bolters are WAAAY too casual. And, the accident rates from bolt failures is...what? 'Bout zilch. Name one accident resulting from Rawl or Power bolt failing. There are none. So, like I said, these bolts just aren't that finicky. And...look at the numbers of sport routes and sport climbers. Huge. Go figure.
Maybe we all should take up knitting...
Er something.
Brian in SLC
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 7:33 PM
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:roll:
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: To brianinslc: Ok fine, you got me, I give up. I've already wasted to much valuable climbing time on this thread. Do it your way, just post a list of the climbs you put up so I can avoid them.
How 'bout never climbing in Utah, Idaho, or Montana? Thanks.
Oh, and put Wyoming and Nevada on that list too...ha ha...
Naw, don't give up. Its a good discussion. Lets get some test data and revisit the issue.
Here's some bolt hanger data to tide you over...
Hardness testing (traceable to NIST!) on 5 stainless bolt hangers
(average of 3 to 6 individual tests):
Bluewater: 87 HRB
Kong (2500 Kg): 88 HRB
Petzl (2200 Kg): 90 HRB
Metolius: 85 HRB
Fixe (40 Kn): 86 HRB
Approximate tensile strengths: 82 - 89 KSI.
And...I don't consider a discussion like this a waste of time...you shouldn't either.
Cheers!
Brian in SLC
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climbbaja
Feb 13, 2004, 7:57 PM
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To brianinslc:
Too much supposition (b.s.) to try to respond to. Your faulty logic astounds me. So many untested hypotheses to which you form conclusions, and then want to convince others to do as you do.
It's the same old stuff I see here way too often: "Yo dudes, I belay from a single non-locking carabiner and it has never been a problem. So that's the way to go, and everyone else should too."
I believe you would defend your position to the grave. Maybe you should try convincing Powers (Rawl) and the ANSI to change the standards. I'm done.
To everyone else:
Please do not place 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes.
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Feb 13, 2004, 8:20 PM
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where the hell is the _pirate when we need ouzo?
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: I believe you would defend your position to the grave. Maybe you should try convincing Powers (Rawl) and the ANSI to change the standards. I'm done.
I wouldn't. Any "useful" information that you could provide I'd listen to, and evaluate. Since you don't seem to have any, then indeed, you're done.
I think you have to apply the standards and specs out there for your own particular use. We're using stuff from the construction industry. Its not really designed for rock climbing.
There's far too little actual test data out there. If you have some, please post it. Otherwise, your suppositions are just as unsupported as anyone else's.
I've done a fair amount of "investigation" on bolts and bolting. Besides blindly following ANSI specs and Powers installation guides, what have you done or learned?
Baja and San Diego, eh? So, SCC a concern for your stainless bolts? How come you're not using all Titanium glue ins? Too expensive?
I'd feel much safer on my bolts than yours...
Brian in SLC
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climbbaja
Feb 13, 2004, 9:00 PM
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To brianinslc:
I'm going on available standards/test data unless proven wrong. You are the one acting and advising on your "own" suppositions. You are the only person I have ever heard make a case for placing 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes.
I'm not particularly concerned with SCC, my placements are far from the ocean, in an arid region (in good granite). Besides, glueing-in doesn't work climbing ground-up :) I use 3/8" SS wedge anchor type bolts and Fixe SS hangers almost exclusively. Hey, check out the new Raumer 12mm SS wedge anchors if you want to see some beefy bolts. I'll be adding them to some of my semi-hanging belay stations. http://estores.infront.com/asdi/item_info.asp?pid=13 available through http://www.adventuresystemsdesigns.com/
Btw, I use only quality gear and replace old bolts at my expense. I don't trust my 1970's vintage 1/4" buttonheads either, but I think you would trust my 1988 and newer bolts.
Good luck in your endeavors.
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marcel
Feb 13, 2004, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: the petzl roc pec is nice
I agree! Have used it lots in caving, and a few times for sport climbing. :)
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: To brianinslc: I'm going on available standards/test data unless proven wrong. You are the one acting and advising on your "own" suppositions. You are the only person I have ever heard make a case for placing 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes.
Not as much a "supposition" as direct observation both in the field, and in the home laboratory. You really only need to drill one hole in hard rock to get that 10mm drill bit to wear down. And, if I still have to beat the cone into the hole, I'm no where near worrying about not gettin' enough pull out strength. And...I've pulled a bunch of stainless 3/8" power bolts because they wouldn't seat. Finicky sometimes...but...not near as much as with a hole drilled with a 10mm drill bit. That's not supposition. Its experience.
In reply to: I'm not particularly concerned with SCC, my placements are far from the ocean, in an arid region (in good granite).
Yeah, but...how far away is enough? These stainless bolts kinda scare me, just 'cause we don't know. And you can't tell by lookin' from the outside.
ORG is plenty inland, and those Power bolts the ASCA have been pullin' there are rusty as the dickens.
From here in the Wasatch....(posted on a guidebook thread...)
http://mtncommunity.org/...402297693eeb7196.jpg
Top bolt is 13 years old. Bottom is brand new. Need to bust them. But, my bet is that the test data will show the older bolt well within spec. Just not that much material loss. Grade 5 Rawl bolt. First bolt on a very popular sport climb, with mucho doggin' (unusually high amount of hangin' on this critter...Chorusline up BCC if anyone wants to know).
Problem with stainless...is you'll never know until they bust. At least with grade 5, you can see the surface rust, and you got what you got.
In reply to: Besides, glueing-in doesn't work climbing ground-up :)
Would if you used RBs and glued later...!
In reply to: I use 3/8" SS wedge anchor type bolts and Fixe SS hangers almost exclusively.
So...another words, your anchors aren't maintainable...you can't pull them studs and replace in the same hole, eh? I know, yada yada...(tough goin' on lead with power bolts, but, can be done).
In reply to: Hey, check out the new Raumer 12mm SS wedge anchors if you want to see some beefy bolts.
I can't see their configuration that well. Is that a double expansion cone? Is that a washer or a sleeve installed backwards (like the Triplex)? Interesting look, like those double expansion Fixes?
In reply to: I don't trust my 1970's vintage 1/4" buttonheads either, but I think you would trust my 1988 and newer bolts. Good luck in your endeavors.
What about the ramset/redhead dynabolt gold? Anyone seen these?
Yeah, your hardware I'd "suppose" is just fine...(ha ha)...
If you could test, though, say, design an experiment, to find out what the risk of SCC was for long term bolting, how'd you do it?
My thought is that you'd use an alternate salt immersion test, with a series of bolts of different types in some standard-esque test blocks (I hate to use concrete but its a pretty consistant material unlike some rock). You'd run the test both with salt, and without (just water) for a long enough length of time (whatever that is, maybe a year?). Severe enough test.
I'd be pretty interested to see the results of some of that type of testing. Both shear and tensile. Comparison of studs, bolts, stainless and grade 5 (heck, toss some of those low carbon steel red sleeved power studs in for fun, too). Enough sample size to get some stats.
Hmmm.....suggestions?
Brian in SLC
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 10:05 PM
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:?
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whenindoubtrunitout
Mar 12, 2004, 12:36 PM
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If you are trying to keep it light an inexpensive try this....
Drill a hole down the middle of a 1.5" diam cylindrical piece of wood, then cut it in half lengthwise. Put an SDS drill bit in the middle of it with the blunt end sticking out and tape it all together real tight. Super light. Super cheap. The Petzl rockpecker is the next better thing. It is actually about the same price as other drills (or less) and is better in every other respect.
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tedc
Mar 12, 2004, 5:44 PM
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In reply to: We're more picky than most, but most bolters are way too casual.....
And that is why we have all this problem with bolts failing all the time; RIGHT?
If you are going to avoid all bolts placed by brianinslc then you would be well advised to avoid any bolt not placed by yourself as I think that brianinslc's placements are probably in the top 5% of all placements in terms of quality.
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epic_ed
Mar 12, 2004, 8:12 PM
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At times, this discussion has come close to getting personal, but over all I really appreciate the information being debated. As a novice, occasional bolt driller (hand drill only), discussions with real substance like this one are hard to find.
Above all, thank ALL of you guys for the hard work you have put in to developing areas and putting up climbs the rest of us.
FWIW -- I use a Petzl Roc Pecker, and find it's a good value. I, too, looked around for an old Hurricane drill -- without success. I keep hoping I'll run across one on eBay.
Where's Greg and Bryan? I'd love to hear their input on this topic.
Ed
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whenindoubtrunitout
Mar 12, 2004, 8:16 PM
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I've read this thread and it sounds like we have a forum of some pretty experienced bolters. In fact, I can't find anything patently erroneous that anyone has said. And I'm pretty detail oriented. This is a very interesting conversation to me. I have placed approximately 800-1000 bolts over the years using power drills and hand drills. About half of those have been redrilling existing smaller holes. I also wrote my thesis on, "The Fatigue Life of 1/4" Bolts in Climbing Applications". The thesis was published by The University of Utah in 1998. So I have some experience breaking bolts placed in rock. I actually spent the first year of my thesis research designing and building a portable machine to break existing bolts in both shear and tensile loading.
climbbaja, marcel and others might be interested to know that brianinslc is actually an engineer by education and profession (as am I). During my 3 years of thesis research I quickly learned that many of the engineers that design and manufacture various expansion bolts do not know much about how they behave in climbing applications. And most don't want to talk to you about it either.... because they don't make them for that purpose. That is not to say that their published specs are of no value. It is only to say that they are a starting point.
Concrete actually has a modulus of elasticity that is different than granite or sandstone or cinderblock or quartzite. Which is why some manufacturers caution against the use of their expansion bolts in cinderblock, even if that cinderblock is embedded in concrete. The "perfect" hole size for a given bolt will vary depending on the medium it is being placed in. I use the word "perfect" loosely because as it turns out there is no need to be perfect. Engineers design expansion bolts in such a way that they can be used in a variety of mediums for practicality.
The wedging action of expansion bolts takes place over a range of hole diameters because the mediums they are placed in get crushed and change hole size as the bolt is tightened. That is reality. Expansion bolts are not being placed in cast iron (read low elastic modulus) holes drilled to high tolerances.
In fact engineers have idiot-proofed the entire thing. It turns out that the torque specifications they publish cannot be attained unless the hole size and the medium's elastic modulus are both sufficiently small enough to result in that torque. So the good news is that as long as the torque spec is met and the bolt is placed all the way into a hole drilled deep enough to fully accept it, the manufacturers "minimum pullout load specification" will be met. (Shear strength is not an issue here.)
This is not to say that there are not other factors to consider, though. For example.... if the hole is too small it could damage certain types of expansion bolts while they are being driven into the hole. If the hole is too large the torque may be impossible to attain.... and in the case of certain types of studs may also be extremely difficult to remove at that point. But these factors are the kind of things all of you probably know how to avoid through experience with different drill/bolt combinations.
I'll stop my monologue at this point for the moment.
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boltdude
Mar 14, 2004, 6:15 PM
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Good discussion, and to answer your question Ed, I was in Thailand for 7 weeks. First time I've ever seen stainless modern hangers that had me wishing for Leepers (I actually disintegrated a 10-yr-old Petzl hanger just by clipping a biner and twisting...yikes!).
My experience on this is mainly of the 10mm bolt in 3/8" hole variety:
Definitely don't use 10mm wedge bolts in 3/8" holes. I've gotten 4 Fixe 3/8" wedge bolts stuck at various times (all hand drilling), they are supposedly 3/8" but in reality are 10mm with smaller sleeves. For shorty and anyone else who has placed these (or the official 10mm) where it took a lot of pounding, go take a very close look at the head of the bolt. The head of the bolt may develop tiny cracks - I've seen this on the 4 I got stuck, and also on the first bolt off the belay on the 5th pitch of Cry'n Time Again in Tuolumne, replaced by SAR folks in '98 (yes, I replaced the bolt with a stainless 5-piece, 2001 or so). Also, my experience is that these stuck Fixe wedge bolts broke extremely easily with just a wack or two of the hammer, none of the bending the whole bolt back and forth a bunch of times like you have to do with some old rusty 3/8" wedge bolts. The only other bolts of that size that I've seen break with so little force are the 25-yr-old Urioste 3/8" bolts at Red Rocks that they used on some belays and protection bolts - those snap super easy. Anyway, it's worrisome for the strength of any of those bolts that you had to pound a lot to get in.
As far as 10mm holes for 3/8", I certainly would recommend against it, especially since 3/8" bits are way cheaper. Brian has a good point in that the short bits can be essential for super-steep stance hand drilling, but I've seen 4" long 3/8" SDS bits (not 10mm), not sure where they are available now (if at all). I wouldn't use 10mm bits with 3/8" bolts.
However - and this is what makes me question the manufacturer recommendations even on the bolts used for decades in construction - I was torque testing some 3/8" and 1/2" carbon steel 5-pieces a few years ago in good granite (yes, two independent torque wrenches). Several of the 1/2" bolts broke 5-10 pounds BELOW their recommended torque (60 ft-lbs). There's a few obvious possibilities:
1) bad batch of bolts
2) the published torque values are wrong - too high. This was also suggested to me by a friend simply based on the true bolt diameter and the grade of steel (true bolt diameter of a 3/8" 5-piece is 5/16", and of a 1/2" 5-piece, 3/8"). Do you know about this Tony? Can someone look that up? (I'll try to). Recommended torques are 20,35 for ss,cs 3/8", and 35,60 for ss,cs 1/2' 5-pieces, all available at www.powers.com.
3) the secondary expansion of the 5-piece Rawls (i.e. the cone expansion - where the end of the bolt expands the cone sides that have been compressed by pounding in the hole) - may have been intended to bite into the concrete to some extent, especially on the larger diameter bolts. Good granite is more than twice as strong as the best concrete, and if the cone can't bite in at all, maybe that changes the required torque. This would fall solidly into "these bolts aren't designed for rock climbing" category, but I suspect that 1) or 2) is closer to the truth.
Anyway, this whole discussion reminds me of the 17/64" drill bits that were used for 1/4" holes in the mid/late '80s (I think used originally to reduce fracturing of the rock at the surface when pounding the bolt in, and to reduce the chance of the bolt bending while being placed). A friend who placed some down at Whitney Portal said that the bolts were scary and bad to begin with, and Gerberding said that's also why that 11a left of Aqua Knobby in Tuolumne has an "X" rating - since the bolts are so sketchy.
I'd bet that a 10mm hole and a 3/8" 5-piece on good granite would be OK, but I also think that someone who read this, then went out and drilled a 10mm hole in a softer rock like moderate quality sandstone might well end up with a bolt that would pull out pretty easily.
And on the original question - Petzl is the best choice, unless you have a really big hand, a lot of big guys like the long handle of the Pika. Hurricanes rock, but sounds like they're out of business? Bummer. Still, I've changed bits on a dicey stance with a Petzl, wouldn't happen with anything else, and no wrenches to drop, screws to loosen, etc. Super lightweight too.
Greg
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diesel___smoke
Mar 14, 2004, 6:56 PM
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How do you get a hurricane drill to chuck up to a 17/64 high speed bit?
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whenindoubtrunitout
Mar 14, 2004, 8:46 PM
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In reply to: Definitely don't use 10mm wedge bolts in 3/8" holes. I've gotten 4 Fixe 3/8" wedge bolts stuck at various times (all hand drilling), they are supposedly 3/8" but in reality are 10mm with smaller sleeves.
I concur.
In reply to: However - and this is what makes me question the manufacturer recommendations even on the bolts used for decades in construction - I was torque testing some 3/8" and 1/2" carbon steel 5-pieces a few years ago in good granite (yes, two independent torque wrenches). Several of the 1/2" bolts broke 5-10 pounds BELOW their recommended torque (60 ft-lbs).
1) Did these bolts fail in shear, tensile or torsion?
2) What was the Ultimate Shear Strength, Ultimate Shear Strength and/or Ultimate Torsional Strength?
2) How many hammer blows did it take to place the bolts?
3) Did you measure the force of the blows?
One factor some climbers may not consider is the reduction in strength of bolts due to fatigue induced during installation. This includes, but is not limited to both the installation (hammering) and tightening (torque) processes. BTW... bolts are only exposed to tiny torsional loads in climbing applications. Hardly worthy of consideration.
In reply to: Anyway, this whole discussion reminds me of the 17/64" drill bits that were used for 1/4" holes in the mid/late '80s (I think used originally to reduce fracturing of the rock at the surface when pounding the bolt in, and to reduce the chance of the bolt bending while being placed).
One thing to keep in mind about compression bolts (as oppossed to expansion bolts) is that the hole diameter tolerance (For non-engineer types... this is the range of acceptable hole sizes.) is different. The tolerance is generally smaller for 1/4" compression bolts than 3/8" expansion bolts.
In reply to: I'd bet that a 10mm hole and a 3/8" 5-piece on good granite would be OK, but I also think that someone who read this, then went out and drilled a 10mm hole in a softer rock like moderate quality sandstone might well end up with a bolt that would pull out pretty easily.
I partially concur. This gets back to what I said about different specifications for different rock types. But... again... as long as the manufacturer's torque specification are consistently met, the bolt should not fail below their minimum published loads. (This does not speak to the rock in which the bolt is installed failing, however. You are on your own there.)
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ullr
Jun 15, 2004, 6:53 AM
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What is consensus on the Ramset/Redhead shown below being used in Sandstone (medium-soft) with a 1/2" x 5 1/2". They seem to be much easier to place, torquing to spec easy, etc. The Rawl 5 piece 1/2" x 5" cones seem to bore the hole too large as you tap them in, frequently causing spinners.
Are the Fixe bolts with the double wedge intended for softer rock?
http://www.ramset-redhead.com/...ubolt/tru_prod1a.jpg
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climbbaja
Jun 15, 2004, 8:35 AM
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That is a Ramset-Redhead brand "TruBolt" wedge anchor. Wedge anchors are designed for hard rock only. The Fixe wedge anchors with the double cone are somewhat better when the rock is "less than hard" (medium-hard or containing possible small air pockets/bubbles). It is better to think of wedge anchors as only suitable for hard rock. Not even for the best sandstone either. Think Yosemite quality granite.
Sleeve anchor bolts (Rawl/Powers "5-piece" PowerBolt and Fixe "Triplex") are designed for improved performance in softer materials. The larger the diameter and longer the bolt, the stronger it should be. So the 1/2" x 5" Powers 5-piece will be superior to the 12mm Triplex. Sorry, I stay away from soft rock (even on my FM dial) so I don't know about your installation problem. My guess is that if the hole is enlarging so easily, that your "medium-soft" rock is what granite climbers would think of as "butter-soft". Maybe that's when glue-ins should be considered.
Say, has anyone ever tried spitting on sandstone to soften it up? Then after you tap the bolt in, just heat it up with the portable hair dryer...
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whenindoubtrunitout
Jun 15, 2004, 2:41 PM
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I concur with most of what climbbaja said.
Exception #1: To say longer bolts are stronger is misleading. They may be more likely to remain in the hole during tensile loading, but the bolts, themselves, are not stronger.
Exception #2: To say one bolt is "superior" to another is often misleading. Particular bolts have particular advantages/disadvantages depending on their application. We do not know all the details of your particular application, so it is difficult to expand on those advantages/disadvantages.
Glue-ins do offer some significant advantages in soft rock.
If the rock is so soft that spitting on it actually weakens the surface enough to notice by "feel".... gluing the anchor in place will significantly enhance the reliability of it.
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the_pirate
Jun 15, 2004, 3:09 PM
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In reply to: where the hell is the _pirate when we need ouzo?
Whew!!! You ain't kidding, Geo. I need to take a couple shots of the "brain juice" and go back and sort through all that techno-spec info again.
Ouzo, get your Ouzo here! Step right up.
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sarcat
Jun 15, 2004, 3:41 PM
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I'm using Hilti Quickbolt II anchors 3/8" SS x 3" long. I'm a big Hilti fan but I've noticed most of you using the Rawl/Powers 5 piece or the Triplex etc. Any problems encountered with the Hilit (other than price)?
Thanks,
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lemon_boy
Dec 28, 2004, 2:37 AM
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i have a question about the petzl rockpecker (rocpec?). when i look at their website, it says that the drill takes 10mm and 12mm SDS bits. when i look at the shoreline website (look at the killer driller package) it says 3/8" SDS. my GF bought a rockpec for xmas and it says 10mm/12mm. can you use the 3/8 or 1/2 inch bits with the rockpec? are there two different models? i would prefer to use a 3/8 bit most of the time (1/2 inch in sandstone) due to the cost of the bits and to use the powers 5 piece bolts. this thread is a very good thread with a lot of interesting information. thanks to all who have contributed.
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climbbaja
Dec 28, 2004, 3:02 AM
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"SDS" is a standard attachment shape & size, regardless of the drill bit diameter. So you can use either metric or inches. Metric is more common in Europe. Buy the proper size SDS bit for whichever bolts you prefer. Best to stick with either metric or inches, so the bits do not get mixed up. In the USA, metric bits and bolts will be more expensive and harder to find.
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