|
akclimber
Mar 31, 2004, 11:30 AM
Post #1 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 17, 2004
Posts: 609
|
Evidence. :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
jgrierson
Mar 31, 2004, 12:07 PM
Post #2 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 17, 2002
Posts: 89
|
In reply to: im just joking, trying to get ur attention... well, in my opinion climbing is climbing, it doesnt matter if you have fun and be safe within reasonable grounds, as long as someone doesnt start boling plastic holds onto real rock i am satisfied... dont hate the player, hate the game :wink:
Good comments - I don't understand all the fuss and sniping either - just get out there and do it, doesn't matter how.
Aid climbing though - now that is cheating :D
|
|
|
|
|
one900johnnyk
Mar 31, 2004, 12:38 PM
Post #3 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 2381
|
man i'm really getting tired of all these 'why can't we all just get along' threads...
|
|
|
|
|
lunatixx
Mar 31, 2004, 12:41 PM
Post #4 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 48
|
koumbayaaaaaaAAAAAAH! (=^_^=)
|
|
|
|
|
drrock
Mar 31, 2004, 1:00 PM
Post #5 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2003
Posts: 610
|
edit
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Mar 31, 2004, 1:13 PM
Post #6 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
They don't... TROLLs bash others to get a rise out of em, just like this thread. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 31, 2004, 2:01 PM
Post #7 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
As I drink my morning coffee I've decided to bite.
I in fact do go somewhere else. Not only do I avoid the bolted climbs but like to avoid areas with a lot of bolts.
Here is the sure fire way to avoid most bolted areas. Walk far enough that you cannot see your car from the crag. Only the hardest and most gnarly of the toughest sport climbers would ever walk more than 5 minutes for a climb. This works most of the time.
Proliferation is the word. There is nothing wrong with a bolt or two. I'd even say that there are good sport climbs I'm glad exist. The problem is when everyone and their sister has some proj, then alternate finishes, and finally sqeeze jobs. An area with half a dozen good sport routes now boasts 35 routes and still only half a dozen worthwhile. The damage to the rock is still minor (it has been irreparably damaged, but it is minor).
So along comes Mr. and Mrs. Schmuck and the kids. They see all the bolts lining the cliffs and by the end of the day leave a bit dissapointed in all the climbers. A few months later a referendum or petition comes by with the intent of stopping all climbing in an area or possibly regulating bolting. Mr. Schmuck remembers that day and gladly votes for it. I believe this is going to be the situation more and more.
I am 25 years old and want to climb unrestricted until I'm too old to do it, I selfishly climb trad for the longeivity of the sport. Plus trad is more fun, sporties are weenies, 1 in 3 sport climbers has the clap, and sport climbers are 80% more likely to get the alien anal probe.
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Mar 31, 2004, 3:00 PM
Post #8 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
In reply to: They don't... TROLLs bash others to get a rise out of em, just like this thread. :roll:
We have a winner!
I regularly bash sport climbing and sport climbers. I don't approve of modifying the rock in any way to facilitate climbing, so placing bolts is right out for me. I'm 99.9% sure I'll never do it. The .1% is in deference to the fact that who knows how I'll think in 30 years. But dislike sport climbers? Nah. I like or dislike people based on things far more important than whether they clip bolts or place trad pro like real climbers.
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
autisticwombat
Mar 31, 2004, 3:07 PM
Post #9 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 3
|
Sport climbing is cheaper!!!! :!:
Rhode Island, neither a road nor an island....discuss
|
|
|
|
|
itakealot
Mar 31, 2004, 3:17 PM
Post #10 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2003
Posts: 382
|
Are there a climbers on this site that have done every alpine discipline and exceeded in it?
Granite can be done on trad, aide, and on sport and does not need glueing or chipping, but sandstone conglomerate rocks may or may not be able to done traditionally but only on cleaned (chipped and glued) routes. Crack systems on hard rock should only be trad routes with the occasional safety bolt.
Lastly, we all have our local ethics and most of the time ethics from NY or NC may not apply to So Cal where we have all types of climbing and no climbing wars. Every climber I have met from out of state has been really cool and I am dumbfounded by some of the comments by some of the people on this site. How does a person developing a route on manky sandstone in Ventura County California ruin the life of someone who climbs trad at the Gunks? This is a free forum and we are free to post our "opinions."
Anyway it is just the trolls spraying at eachother, climbers are just worried about climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Mar 31, 2004, 3:17 PM
Post #11 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: man i'm really getting tired of all these 'why can't we all just get along' threads...
This dog has been trained to attack by its owner whenever it hears the words "sport climbing."
http://members.attcanada.ca/~baunb93/dogs/fight.jpg
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Mar 31, 2004, 3:20 PM
Post #12 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
In reply to: Every climber I have met from out of state has been really cool and I am dumbfounded by some of the comments by some of the people on this site.
Odds are good that you aren't taking those comments with an appropriately sized grain of salt.
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
amused2death
Mar 31, 2004, 3:36 PM
Post #13 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 8
|
I don't really want to impose myself in this thread right away, but since i am primarily a boulderer i don't get in on these discussions much. i have plenty of sport experience, and some trad leading (somthing i'm not 100% comfortable with), and in doing each of those i have experienced some real crap climbers.
yes, bolting is done in excess. i will admit it. after spening the entire week in sandrock, alabama, and finding some really crappy bolted routes, i am ready to admit that there needs to be some sort of regulation on the issue of bolting. on the other hand, trad climbers can also be to blame for similar damages in rock. zippering down a sandstone crack and pulling out 3-4 cams definitely damages the rock. when i'm showered with pebbles and sand from someone's fall, its fairly obvious that something is breaking off, and rock is being damaged.
sport or trad, the key is climbing SMART.
|
|
|
|
|
traddaddy
Mar 31, 2004, 3:48 PM
Post #14 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2001
Posts: 195
|
In reply to: on the other hand, trad climbers can also be to blame for similar damages in rock. zippering down a sandstone crack and pulling out 3-4 cams definitely damages the rock.
You're kidding, right?
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Mar 31, 2004, 3:52 PM
Post #15 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
Not kidding... Just a dummy.
NEWSFLASH !!! It is wise to be educated about climbing prior to injecting your oppinion.
|
|
|
|
|
mikec
Mar 31, 2004, 3:56 PM
Post #16 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 12, 2002
Posts: 21
|
The point of climbing to me is to climb hard. I don't need a crack to be bolted. I use my trad gear. Then again, I would be very disappointed if that beautiful limestone overhang was not bolted. I would not get on a climb I knew I could not protect.
As far as damaging rock. I believe it is possible to put up some really lousy routes. Maybe that is why at places like the city of rocks you have to get written approval for a route. This helps the rangers decide if you know what you are doing enough to put up a quality route.
There is a place near here called Leslie Gulch. It is the same sort of volcanic stuff at Smith Rock. Well there are about 60 manufactured routes there. When I say manufactured routes I mean drilled pockets and chipped holds. These climbs were built on some serious blank overhangs. I think there are a couple warm up routes that are 5.11C. The majority are in the 13's. The truth is I really enjoy climbing there. The few climbers (who were big name climbers by the way) put up some very excellent routes. Would I be upset about the chipping and drilling if they were bad routes. Probably.
People who have little climbing experience have a very small chance of putting up good bolted routes. The reason is that they probably will not understand when you should be stopping to clip or protecting against a dangerous fall. Overbolting needs no explanation. There is also the idea of placing bolts where there is little impact to the public.
The point is that if there was not sport climbing a huge amount of rock would never be climbed. That being said, there should be some sort of regulation to ensure that quality routes are put up.
|
|
|
|
|
amused2death
Mar 31, 2004, 4:08 PM
Post #17 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 8
|
definitely not kidding about the zippering. scary stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
micahmcguire
Mar 31, 2004, 4:11 PM
Post #18 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 18, 2002
Posts: 889
|
I'll kill you! I'll kill all of you!!! Oh, he was just joking.
|
|
|
|
|
amused2death
Mar 31, 2004, 4:22 PM
Post #19 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 8
|
people get pretty worked up about this, eh?
|
|
|
|
|
amused2death
Mar 31, 2004, 4:27 PM
Post #21 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 8
|
none... i haven't lead trad very much, and when i did, it was really easy.
but i've seen it.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 31, 2004, 4:34 PM
Post #22 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
We need a smiley who's raising the bullsh1t flag. Or maybe Roughsters Banana is already doing that?
Yeah I commonly rip 3-4 pieces of gear (insert B.S. flag here).
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Mar 31, 2004, 4:36 PM
Post #23 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
No offense brutha, but like I said on the previous page, "It's best to become educated about climbing prior to injecting your oppinion."
I have done much Trad and have zippered a few lower stoppers once, but only due to the place the belayer was when I fell, and not having a cam in first which is multidirectional... Something I now do. You don't know what I'm taliking about, but most experienced Trad climbers will. If you have seen someone zipper "cams" then don't do what he was doing, as he was an idiot, and does not know how or where to place cams.
Just so ya know... I would much rather fall on gear I placed my self and believe to be bomber than any bolt I did not place. Get some experience at it, and you will more than likely feel the same way. But to offer an oppinion when you have no experience is not too wise brutha. :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
amused2death
Mar 31, 2004, 4:42 PM
Post #24 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 8
|
hey, my entire argument is that experience is key. i already admitted i know next to nothing about trad climbing. and, the trad climber who pulled out the cams was a friend of mine, and he cut himself up real bad.
i'm saying that inexperienced trad climbers can be the culprits of destroying routes just as much as sport climbers.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Mar 31, 2004, 4:47 PM
Post #25 of 100
(7197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
OK... That's fair enough, but I think your reply infers that Trad climbers also scar the rock, and this is not the case, as Trad is "clean climbing"... Hence much of the same gear can be used in "Clean Aid". Trad climbing closely follows the "Leave No Trace" ethic.
|
|
|
|
|
bouldertom
Mar 31, 2004, 4:47 PM
Post #26 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 4, 2003
Posts: 140
|
I'll say it again-
In reply to: Here's an idea: If you don't want whomever bashing whomever, stop introducing threads that give them space to. Just go climb something and stop this crap. |
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Mar 31, 2004, 4:48 PM
Post #27 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
In reply to: i'm saying that inexperienced trad climbers can be the culprits of destroying routes just as much as sport climbers.
There should be a "Quit while you're behind." smiley, too.
Trad climbers don't, in my experience, fall very much. The only trad climber I've ever seen fall is me, in fact. All but one of those falls didn't cause any apparent damage to the rock. The last one _may_ have loosened a block, or it may have already been loose and I just didn't notice. I'll never know. In any case, I never set out on a climb with prior knowledge and intent that I'm going to deface the rock. You can't say that with a Bosch in hand.
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
amused2death
Mar 31, 2004, 4:54 PM
Post #28 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 8
|
i think in order to acknowledge shotty bolting and such, you also need to address shotty climbing in all areas. just because you are a trad climber does not make you innocent at any level. just pony up and agree that the only way to stop the degredation of the rock we like to climb is climbing SMART - trad or sport.
|
|
|
|
|
amused2death
Mar 31, 2004, 4:57 PM
Post #29 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 8
|
thanks rrrADAM.
however, even if trad climbing doesn't mark the rock in the same fashion as sport climbing, it is impossible to claim that it doesn't have the potential to scar the rock.
|
|
|
|
|
action
Mar 31, 2004, 4:59 PM
Post #30 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2004
Posts: 91
|
i dont think people realize how many bolts have been placed that are CRAP. wrong size, wrong design, wrong bolt for the rock, bad placements, overtightning, under tightning, drilled hole too long, too short, too wide, etc. etc. etc....at least half of all bolts placed are shite and in risk of pulling out or shearing...just something to think about...
p.s. I still love to sport climb...but trad is a little more exciting (and safer)...
|
|
|
|
|
amused2death
Mar 31, 2004, 5:04 PM
Post #31 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 8
|
hey, climb at sandrock for a week and you'll come across quite a few crappy bolts. but trad climbers and sport climbers seem to get along fone there. and the bolting stays way clear of cracks and such.
|
|
|
|
|
mikec
Mar 31, 2004, 5:28 PM
Post #32 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 12, 2002
Posts: 21
|
Trad Climbers / Sport Climbers, is there a distinction between the two. How many experienced hard guys are there that do not do both?
As far as damaging rock goes, how many cracks can be climbed without removing loose rock, dirt, plants etc? Not many.
So really everything has an impact, weather you admit or not.
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Mar 31, 2004, 5:35 PM
Post #33 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
23456789
|
|
|
|
|
drrock
Mar 31, 2004, 5:45 PM
Post #34 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2003
Posts: 610
|
edit
|
|
|
|
|
ambler
Mar 31, 2004, 5:57 PM
Post #35 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2002
Posts: 1690
|
In reply to: In reply to: drrock has locked this thread I thought all I had to do to lock a thread was type these magic words... How come that works for some people??? |
|
|
|
|
action
Mar 31, 2004, 6:22 PM
Post #36 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2004
Posts: 91
|
"quote"
Sorry, action, I hate to be a fly in the ointment, but I have yet to encounter that scenario. A number of years ago the crux bolt on Heinous Cling was starting to protrude from the rock. Did it prevent anyone from climbing the route? No, and in fact, when I was working the route I fell on it twice to no ill affect.
my point exactly...so you have encountered that scenario...how long did that bolt hold? you are a total idiot if you think everybody out there placing bolts knows what they are doing...i wonder how many 1/4 bolts bought frome the hardware store still have hangers on them-waiting to be fallen on- p.s. you are a total idiot for falling on a suspect bolt...you dumb as s
|
|
|
|
|
killclimbz
Mar 31, 2004, 6:30 PM
Post #37 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 6, 2000
Posts: 1964
|
In reply to: at least half of all bolts placed are s--- and in risk of pulling out or shearing...just something to think about...
Half the bolts?!!! That fact just doesn't really pan out. Yeah, bolts do break, cams pop, nuts fall out. But half the bolts? Areas like Shelf Road, Rifle, American Fork, Wild Iris, Sinks, would be some of the most dangerous in the US. Now if you are talking about the manky 1/4 inchers the are plentiful in the South Platte, I might agree. Let's not over exaggerate what the problems are.
|
|
|
|
|
d.ben
Deleted
Mar 31, 2004, 6:54 PM
Post #38 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
chipping is weak no matter what. If you can't climb it, leave it alone. who knows what someone 20 years from now will be able to climb.
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Mar 31, 2004, 6:56 PM
Post #39 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
23456789
|
|
|
|
|
joshklingbeil
Mar 31, 2004, 7:29 PM
Post #40 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 403
|
I think a Trad Climber Would be a liltle pissed if some gumbie pulls off an unauthorized Retro bolting. Keep your power drills away from our clean cracks. But you can go ahead and bolt away at your chossy Cliff bands.Just don't put a bolt in something thats gonna rip out.
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Mar 31, 2004, 8:19 PM
Post #41 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
(wohoo baby this is gonna be fun...)
In reply to: The point of climbing to me is to climb hard. I don't need a crack to be bolted. I use my trad gear. Then again, I would be very disappointed if that beautiful limestone overhang was not bolted. I would not get on a climb I knew I could not protect.
Why bolt it when you can toprope pretty much anyhitng 300 feet or less? I've yet to see a sport route that long...
< sits back to watch the fur fly :twisted: >
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Mar 31, 2004, 9:01 PM
Post #42 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
23456789
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Mar 31, 2004, 9:24 PM
Post #43 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
In reply to: I agree. I've been to places where it is just as easy, if not easier, to TR than to lead. Unfortunately, unless you lead the thing you are looked upon as a hideous, cringing, vermin.
Who do you climb for?
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
casco
Mar 31, 2004, 9:46 PM
Post #44 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 279
|
In reply to: In reply to: on the other hand, trad climbers can also be to blame for similar damages in rock. zippering down a sandstone crack and pulling out 3-4 cams definitely damages the rock. You're kidding, right?
zippering should damage the rock, let´s say 1/10th of what a bolt does, but a bolt will only damage that much, while, trad climbers will fall more than 10 times per bolt in a bolt´s lifetime, so, yeah, I´d bet it is just as damaging to the rock, besides, cracks are not only the places to place protection, they are also the weak spots of loose rocks. Last year a man died in El Potrero Chico placing a camalot in a crack, when he fell down, the camalot pulled out a huge boulder, I mean huge, huge enough to cut the rope on the way down, make an avalanche on the face of the rock, and worse of all, killed the climber.
Conclusion, IF trad climbing is not as damaging as sport climbing, that one accident damaged enough rock to make up for it, and it´s lamentably not the last time that will happen.
That´s not all, we sportclimbers NEVER complained of the rock being damaged, no whinning, see??? You real climbers should learn that too.
Another point, when I was young, the first time I went to La Huasteca, I asked what those shiny (and some rusty) things on the rock, if the rock was amusing to me, the idea of people climbing onto the rock was superb, I didn´t mind the bolts, cause I was thinking of the climbing.
Oh, yet another thing, trad climbing is more economically exclusive, not permiting anyone who can´t afford to buy all that metal, which took some parts of the rock to be created too. Mining is really more damaging than bolting, and trad climbing takes more mining than sportclimbing. I´d say that a large camalot needs about 27 cubic feet of stone to be destroyed so metal can be extruised from it. (BTW, 27 cubic feet is not that much, it´s a cube measuring three feet on boundraries, but it´s MUCH more than a bolt´s hole).
But hey, I´m not disencouraging trad climbing, Im disencouraging disencouragment against sportclimbers.
|
|
|
|
|
mikec
Mar 31, 2004, 10:56 PM
Post #45 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 12, 2002
Posts: 21
|
One person stated the reason not to bolt is because you can toprope any sport climb. They state:
"Why bolt it when you can toprope pretty much anyhitng 300 feet or less? I've yet to see a sport route that long... "
What are you talking about? Once again, don't talk if you don't know what you are talking about. Obviously you don't climb harder than 5.9 or outside of your local area. Any one with a little experience knows toproping is not going over real well at a steep crag. You see, you hit the ground when you fall.
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Mar 31, 2004, 11:01 PM
Post #46 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
How about the cliffs that aren't so steep, then. Like Smith.
|
|
|
|
|
akclimber
Mar 31, 2004, 11:46 PM
Post #47 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 17, 2004
Posts: 609
|
Evidence. :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Apr 1, 2004, 12:36 AM
Post #48 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
Screw the arguing. I'll just respond to the original question with this link. :)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/view.php?ID=256
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Apr 1, 2004, 2:51 AM
Post #49 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
In reply to: What are you talking about? Once again, don't talk if you don't know what you are talking about. Obviously you don't climb harder than 5.9 or outside of your local area. Any one with a little experience knows toproping is not going over real well at a steep crag. You see, you hit the ground when you fall.
Three things. First....read the post nice and careful you nimrod. It was meant as a troll. Youve been hooked.
Second..and this is the fun part. I love when dorks make assumptions. OBVIOUSLY I dont know what I'm talking about. Not only have I been climbing all over the country and various parts of the world for the past 12 years, I can lead 11's with a wrist that doesn't work...and that's not clipping bolts, mind you. Just for shits and giggles, I'll even mention that I can do C3 and WI5, not that it would matter since OBVIOUSLY I dont know what I'm talking about.
Third...the best part is that I get to remind you again...You got hooked :twisted:
Now I'm done with you. Goodbye.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 1, 2004, 2:58 AM
Post #50 of 100
(6854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: (wohoo baby this is gonna be fun...) Why bolt it when you can toprope pretty much anyhitng 300 feet or less?
I guess one obvious answer is, "How are you going to get the toprope up there?".
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Apr 1, 2004, 3:32 AM
Post #51 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: In reply to: (wohoo baby this is gonna be fun...) Why bolt it when you can toprope pretty much anyhitng 300 feet or less? I guess one obvious answer is, "How are you going to get the toprope up there?". -Jay
What's a rope?
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Apr 1, 2004, 4:19 AM
Post #52 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
23456789
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Apr 1, 2004, 4:26 AM
Post #53 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
23456789
|
|
|
|
|
micronut
Apr 1, 2004, 4:37 AM
Post #54 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 1760
|
I can just imagine him going for the throat on some lycra-clad wuss who couldn't make the stick clip.
|
|
|
|
|
jackscoldsweat
Apr 1, 2004, 4:58 AM
Post #55 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2003
Posts: 380
|
"Sport climbing is neither." — Found on a poster at the gendarme in Seneca rocks.
JCS
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Apr 1, 2004, 5:24 AM
Post #56 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
In reply to: no one spoke about the other part of my post, how can u truly "damage" rock, arent you just making it into a different climb?
I think the point of damage, when talking of blowing cams crumbling the rock around them or clean aid (which yes, can "damage" the rock) or nailing a route that was put up as a free climb is that it changes the route from the origional FA and thier vision for the route.
When talking of bolts, well...to each thier own. Without including retrobolting, and in my opinion, not ALL bolts are bad. The ones I hate to see are the ones that fall into a few categories:
Bolts that dont need to be there.
Bolts in wilderness settings that are neither for anchors in otherwise unprotectable stances (especially those which could be avoided by cutting a few meters off the pitch) or ones that were put up just because someone dind't want to stick out a slab or short unprotectable section (unless theres a serious chance of death...I'm not a big fan of X rated routes).
Uncamoflaged bolts (this doesn't count those at predominantly sport crags).
To me this lessens my experience, and I consider it damaging to the rock in that it takes away from it's pristine state that I like to experience. This is also the point in alot of places that have more weekend outdoorsy types as well. They're not climbers, and they dont want to go somewhere and see a bunch of shiny bolts all over a face. They're out there to get away from the man made world.
Every place a climber can go has it's own local ethics and mental directions, so it's going to vary place to place, and person to person. These are just my thoughts on the matter.
|
|
|
|
|
casco
Apr 1, 2004, 5:24 AM
Post #57 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 279
|
In reply to: "Sport climbing is neither." — Found on a poster at the gendarme in Seneca rocks. JCS
Chris Sharma says it is... I´d rather trust Sharma, because he knows about climbing at least a bit more.
|
|
|
|
|
a_guy_named_smith
Apr 1, 2004, 5:43 AM
Post #58 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2004
Posts: 142
|
pffffffffffft
so what.
given the noted powers of cannibus to enhance credibility
because sharma probably hadn't smoked enough that day so we can discredit him as a good source.
and we know that the poster was high on the wall.
therefore the poster in the gendarme is a more reputable source.
and it still stands that sport climbing is neither
|
|
|
|
|
micronut
Apr 1, 2004, 3:08 PM
Post #59 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 1760
|
"Hang-doggoing is the disease, and I'm the cure" ..................from the old Lake Louise guidebook.
|
|
|
|
|
action
Apr 1, 2004, 4:05 PM
Post #60 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2004
Posts: 91
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: p.s. you are a total idiot for falling on a suspect bolt...you dumb as s Climbs 11a on a top-rope...hmmm...yes, I should defer to your judgment in light of your non-existent climbing experience, certainly. When I need the advice of a moron, I'll PM you, okay? Until then... Why can't HE return so that I can insult him a second time. Perhaps one of you will stand in his stead? I'd do as much for you if given half the opportunity, friend.
i guess you have never jumped on a top rope...you are my hero...the fact remains that there are extremely many crappy bolts out there...that has nothing to do with climbing but every thing to do with being a quality engineer and recognizing all of the variables...anyway...keep falling on crappy stuff and we wont have to put up with your dumb as s. by the way...what do people from CANADA know....? nothing
|
|
|
|
|
action
Apr 1, 2004, 4:10 PM
Post #61 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2004
Posts: 91
|
In reply to: In reply to: "Sport climbing is neither." — Found on a poster at the gendarme in Seneca rocks. JCS Chris Sharma says it is... I´d rather trust Sharma, because he knows about climbing at least a bit more.
you are kidding me...sharma knows more than sherman and wilford? pass the pipe brah...i want what you are smokin' :D
|
|
|
|
|
hardcore
Apr 1, 2004, 4:18 PM
Post #62 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 34
|
well here goes i'll take the bait.......After reading all the comments about this particular subject, i walked away from my computer annoyed, i find it particularly hard to express my feeling on this without generalizing, but it seems that this is the norm on this subject so i apologize before hand for generalizing but i'm pissed off. Every answer that bashes someone elses way of climbing is typically and american answer, OOOHHH i said it the dreaded insult of being a dumbass american... I climb trad, sport, aide whatever i feel like wherever i can and whenever i can. I surf and mountain bike, hike and do a myriad of other sports and it's always the same thing with you guys, always the same bullshit. "I'm better than you cause i trad climb, i'm better than you cause this is my beach, get off my trail, you don't look like me so i'm gonna bomb you country" It's the same american bullshit that makes everyone hate you cause you're american, people don't care if you're nice guy or gal all they see is that youre from the US of A. It's the same reason why you guys put Canadian flags on your backpacks when you travel. Yes to many routes are bolted when they don't need to be yes it looks like shit sometimes but come on, jump on some other banwagon, while you assfuck mother earth with tons of pollution and more human waste than some thirdworld countries with twice the popullation...Get over your selves and go fucking climb, and stop your bitching.........
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Apr 1, 2004, 4:24 PM
Post #63 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
"Traddie, Sport Climber, Boulderer, etc..."
Just curious what I am... I do all three and even builder and climb at the gym. I enjoy Trad the most, but I do it all equally, and I've even done all three in the same day many times.
Labeling climbers is the problem, as it creates division, when we as climbers need unity in the face of access issues and the like.
It's like who's better, Army, Navy, Air Force, etc... They are all in the military, and in time of war, "brothers at arms" who watch each other's backs.
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Apr 1, 2004, 4:30 PM
Post #64 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
23456789
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Apr 1, 2004, 4:33 PM
Post #65 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
In reply to: In reply to: "Sport climbing is neither." — Found on a poster at the gendarme in Seneca rocks. JCS Chris Sharma says it is... I´d rather trust Sharma, because he knows about climbing at least a bit more.
It wouldn't surprise me if that poster's been there longer than Sharma has been climbing. 8)
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
action
Apr 1, 2004, 4:38 PM
Post #66 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2004
Posts: 91
|
In reply to: In reply to: ...there are extremely many crappy bolts out there.. My God, I love you! Extremely many? How about greatestly many, severestly lots, or the perennial classic: drastically countless.
thank you...and, you are the best...you are the all knowing....the oracle...rc should have you on payroll. "ASK ipsofacto" yeah...you deserve your own forum. you are my hero! i bet everybody wishes they were just like you...i bet you have lots of friends too...or should we call them fans...you are the princess of CANADA...
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Apr 1, 2004, 4:40 PM
Post #67 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
23456789
|
|
|
|
|
action
Apr 1, 2004, 4:50 PM
Post #68 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2004
Posts: 91
|
In reply to: Hahahah...if this keeps up for much longer, we will become old friends.
you think...eh? :D
|
|
|
|
|
action
Apr 1, 2004, 5:23 PM
Post #69 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2004
Posts: 91
|
In reply to: In reply to: "Sport climbing is neither." — Found on a poster at the gendarme in Seneca rocks. JCS Chris Sharma says it is... I´d rather trust Sharma, because he knows about climbing at least a bit more.
i just can't leave this one alone....I dont think sharma would even agree with this statement. having read thru' some of the recent threads, it is becoming clear to me that our climbing friends from the southern countries (mexico, costa rica, etc.) may not have taken the time to educate themselves in regards to the history (and ethics) of climbing. I do not mean this in a negative way...it is just an observation...it explains some of the recent comments i've read by our friends south of the border.
|
|
|
|
|
ipsofacto
Apr 5, 2004, 11:44 PM
Post #70 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 7, 2003
Posts: 482
|
23456789
|
|
|
|
|
akclimber
Apr 19, 2004, 5:47 AM
Post #71 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 17, 2004
Posts: 609
|
Evidence :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
brundige
Apr 30, 2004, 1:06 PM
Post #72 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2004
Posts: 305
|
In reply to: well, in my opinion climbing is climbing
2 words style,ethics
|
|
|
|
|
elvis
Apr 30, 2004, 1:53 PM
Post #73 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2002
Posts: 77
|
Here is a quote from an article about some one really hardecore with a diferent way of looking at it all
He looked upon climbing as "an individual thing, not some kind of organized religion" He never hesitated to take on those whom he refered to as the "elite" of the climbing comunity and didn't mince words in his castigation of "these gentleman who in effect , presume to tell me how to do my thing
Maybe we need new visionaries to do there "thing" the way they want, and maybe it will piss off someone else but hey maybe this is progression?
Just a thought
Ps. you americans sure no how to win friends and influence people maybe you should look north at your strange neighbours more often.
|
|
|
|
|
realization_83
May 9, 2004, 5:00 AM
Post #74 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2004
Posts: 11
|
no matter which way you climb you can still damage the rock, could a trad piece chip the rock or scar it when you take a fall, especially if it rips out the rock completely because the rock breaks, i have also seen pieces of rock snap off while bouldering, sure bolts look ugly on the rock, but if they are camoflouged and used more effeciently the physical look of the rock wont seem different.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
May 9, 2004, 5:19 AM
Post #75 of 100
(6822 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
This thread produced by and for MORONS.
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
May 9, 2004, 5:31 AM
Post #76 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
Is banging a blonde better than a brunette? Who cares you are still getting some!
|
|
|
|
|
keithlester
Deleted
May 9, 2004, 6:20 AM
Post #77 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
Look at the rock-face,, look at your self, look at the mountain, look at yourself
Be humble, be very humble
Climb what you like, leave me alone, who gives a f**k which is best
|
|
|
|
|
curt
May 9, 2004, 6:22 AM
Post #78 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Sport Climbing Is Better Than Trad Climbing
Wheelchair accessable buildings are nice too.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
donie
May 9, 2004, 6:40 AM
Post #79 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 678
|
Trad climbing is better than sport Pussin
I Don't fall much trad climbin..........................
|
|
|
|
|
snod_ix
May 10, 2004, 5:21 PM
Post #80 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2002
Posts: 63
|
he
|
|
|
|
|
snod_ix
May 10, 2004, 5:27 PM
Post #81 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2002
Posts: 63
|
In reply to: In reply to: (wohoo baby this is gonna be fun...) Why bolt it when you can toprope pretty much anyhitng 300 feet or less? I guess one obvious answer is, "How are you going to get the toprope up there?". -Jay
Here's a concept.......try hiking, or doing an easier route beside of the route you want to do.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 10, 2004, 5:56 PM
Post #82 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: (wohoo baby this is gonna be fun...) Why bolt it when you can toprope pretty much anyhitng 300 feet or less? I guess one obvious answer is, "How are you going to get the toprope up there?". -Jay Here's a concept.......try hiking, or doing an easier route beside of the route you want to do.
Here's a concept.......the top isn't accessable by hiking?
Here's a concept.......according to the poster I was addressing you shouldn't bolt the easier route either because "you can toprope pretty much anything 300 feet or less".
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
curt
May 10, 2004, 6:09 PM
Post #83 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: (wohoo baby this is gonna be fun...) Why bolt it when you can toprope pretty much anyhitng 300 feet or less? I guess one obvious answer is, "How are you going to get the toprope up there?". -Jay Here's a concept.......try hiking, or doing an easier route beside of the route you want to do. Here's a concept.......the top isn't accessable by hiking? Here's a concept.......according to the poster I was addressing you shouldn't bolt the easier route either because "you can toprope pretty much anything 300 feet or less". -Jay
Jay,
Everybody knows that the easier 300ft route, next to the one that shouldn't have been bolted, on the cliff you can't hike to the top of, can be led on gear. :roll:
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
crow
May 10, 2004, 6:10 PM
Post #84 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 7, 2003
Posts: 37
|
Reguarding the damaging the rock thing...Well, what about John Muir and the Leave No Trace ethic of the outdoors in general. I think everyone should fllow those ethics and guidlines including climbers (no matter what style you climb). It's all about no leaving a trace so no one can tell you were ever there and leave nature the way it was before humans decided to start screwing it up and drilling in bolts.
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
May 10, 2004, 6:17 PM
Post #85 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
In reply to: Sport Climbing Is Better Than Trad Climbing Wheelchair accessable buildings are nice too. Curt
So are those big futons you boulderers use on those 12-foot high problems.
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
May 10, 2004, 6:19 PM
Post #86 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
In reply to: I Don't fall much trad climbin..........................
Which means you are not pushing your limits. Keep cranking those desperate 5.9
|
|
|
|
|
moses
May 10, 2004, 6:21 PM
Post #87 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 12
|
ah, the age old question bolts or not? I don't think this is going to be solved today so I say we discuss the more pressing issue, spandex or denim?
|
|
|
|
|
curt
May 10, 2004, 6:22 PM
Post #88 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: Sport Climbing Is Better Than Trad Climbing Wheelchair accessable buildings are nice too. Curt So are those big futons you boulderers use on those 12-foot high problems. Bob
Amen. I love those things and so do my brittle old bones. Haha.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
crazygirl
May 10, 2004, 6:24 PM
Post #89 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 595
|
yeah sport is better in a climbing higherarchy, all the sport climbers are climbing 5.12's on their second day of climbing, and the trad climbing wusses are climbing 5.9's and calling themselves hardmen. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
May 10, 2004, 6:29 PM
Post #90 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
In reply to: Amen. I love those things and so do my brittle old bones. Haha. Curt
Hey Curt lay off the single-malt and start drinking whole milk. Haha
|
|
|
|
|
curt
May 10, 2004, 6:35 PM
Post #91 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: Amen. I love those things and so do my brittle old bones. Haha. Curt Hey Curt lay off the single-malt and start drinking whole milk. Haha
I tried that but I was hung over the next day.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
May 10, 2004, 6:48 PM
Post #92 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
In reply to: yeah sport is better in a climbing higherarchy, all the sport climbers are climbing 5.12's on their second day of climbing
What world did you live-in????
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
May 10, 2004, 7:08 PM
Post #93 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Amen. I love those things and so do my brittle old bones. Haha. Curt Hey Curt lay off the single-malt and start drinking whole milk. Haha I tried that but I was hung over the next day. Curt
Get the milk with Lactaid included. Add scotch, of course.
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
May 10, 2004, 9:14 PM
Post #94 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: It's like who's better, Army, Navy, Air Force, etc...
You aren't really a pilot unless you can land on a boat.
|
|
|
|
|
crazygirl
May 11, 2004, 2:15 AM
Post #95 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 595
|
In reply to: In reply to: yeah sport is better in a climbing higherarchy, all the sport climbers are climbing 5.12's on their second day of climbingWhat world did you live-in????
the rockclimbing.com world
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
May 11, 2004, 3:50 AM
Post #96 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
In reply to: the rockclimbing.com world
It is all so clear now.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
May 11, 2004, 3:56 AM
Post #97 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: It's like who's better, Army, Navy, Air Force, etc... You aren't really a pilot unless you can land on a boat.
Got that right. Navy pilots are the best. :wink:
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
May 11, 2004, 4:18 AM
Post #98 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: In reply to: the rockclimbing.com world It is all so clear now.
Grew the Third Eye already?
http://www.conviviality.org/third%20eye.jpg
I read the whole thread and all I got was this lousey eye.
|
|
|
|
|
mowz
May 12, 2004, 4:21 PM
Post #99 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 1495
|
Shut the "F" up, jackass! Trying to stir something up? Shut up and climb.
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
May 13, 2004, 2:58 AM
Post #100 of 100
(7075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: (wohoo baby this is gonna be fun...) Why bolt it when you can toprope pretty much anyhitng 300 feet or less? I guess one obvious answer is, "How are you going to get the toprope up there?". -Jay Here's a concept.......try hiking, or doing an easier route beside of the route you want to do. Here's a concept.......the top isn't accessable by hiking? Here's a concept.......according to the poster I was addressing you shouldn't bolt the easier route either because "you can toprope pretty much anything 300 feet or less". -Jay Jay, Everybody knows that the easier 300ft route, next to the one that shouldn't have been bolted, on the cliff you can't hike to the top of, can be led on gear. :roll: Curt
Holy Crap! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You guys are still on about this?? And I didn't even get a lousy T rating :cry:
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
