|
musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 1:04 AM
Post #1 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
so, when your rapping with two ropes tied together when half a rope isn't long enough what kind of knot do you use to tie the ropes together? i've been really curious about this for a while now. i'm not planning on using it till i have someone show me in person, i'm just curious
ps, i dont' konw the names of alot of knots so if you have a diagram or wouldn't mind explaining it to me that would be great
|
|
|
|
|
shrubby
Jun 21, 2004, 1:08 AM
Post #2 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 72
|
use the double fisherman
here is a link to an exampe
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/JoinRopes.htm#Fisherman
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 1:19 AM
Post #3 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
exactly what i was looking for, thanks alot, doesn't lool like the easiest knot to tie though, thanks again!
|
|
|
|
|
galf
Jun 21, 2004, 1:50 AM
Post #4 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 230
|
Don't follow his advice!!!! Your knot will get stuck way too often!!
Use the EDK (simple overhand), check it out on Petzl site
|
|
|
|
|
radistrad
Jun 21, 2004, 2:04 AM
Post #5 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 25, 2002
Posts: 800
|
I tie a square knot and back it up with double fisherman knots. I've never gotten my rope stuck and have 1000's of rappels over the years.
I see folks use the EDK but I just dont like it, even though I've never heard of one failing.
The square knot I use in my double fishermans allows for easy untying of the fishermans knot.
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 2:10 AM
Post #6 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
yeah, the double fisherman's does look like it'd be hard to untie, i also noticed the double figure 8, i can tie that quite easily and it looks pretty safe, might not hurt to add 2 stopper knots though, the overhand not doesn't seem all that safe though, i'm not sure why but in my mind a knot that i've used all my life doesn't seem good, anyone care to compare/contrast with pros/cons of each?
|
|
|
|
|
shrubby
Jun 21, 2004, 2:43 AM
Post #7 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 72
|
ive never had it get stuck. it isnt hard to tie. itll be just as hard to untie as any other knot you put weight on. the figure 8 is more bulky than the double fisherman, so is more likely to get caught. as far as space goes, the dbl fisherman is prettty compact.
|
|
|
|
|
tech_dog
Jun 21, 2004, 2:52 AM
Post #8 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 224
|
I use the double fishermans. I think it's the most trustworthy of knots.
I've never had one take more than a few moments to untie, but it does take a good hard first "pick" to loosen it up.
I have had the knot get stuck before, but have always been able to work it lose.
Tests have shown that the overhand is nearly as good, but it's so easy to untie that it makes me nervious. I'd only use this knot if the terrain made a snag extremely likely.
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Jun 21, 2004, 2:58 AM
Post #9 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
In reply to: yeah, the double fisherman's does look like it'd be hard to untie, i also noticed the double figure 8, i can tie that quite easily and it looks pretty safe, might not hurt to add 2 stopper knots though, the overhand not doesn't seem all that safe though, i'm not sure why but in my mind a knot that i've used all my life doesn't seem good, anyone care to compare/contrast with pros/cons of each?
Musicman: there have been deaths using the figure 8. It all depends how its done. Do a search on this site to read more. Meantime, best to use the double fishermans or the EDK, the EDK is the prefered knot, read John Longs book for more. Its safe, leave a long tail.
B
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 3:17 AM
Post #10 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
In reply to: Tests have shown that the overhand is nearly as good, but it's so easy to untie that it makes me nervious.
thats exactly what i think, i'm not plannin on going and rapping off a 100 foot cliff anytime soon without learning in person how to tie the two together so dont worry about me dying or anything but, i totally agree with the nevous-ness of the overhand knot, the fishermans' looks relatively quick too once i get it down.
|
|
|
|
|
roadman33
Jun 21, 2004, 3:20 AM
Post #11 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2004
Posts: 84
|
Hey
Use the over hand. It's great. If you have any doughts, look in any climbing how to book. They all say it's ok. As everyone else I've "never had my ropes stuck" ,and Well Ok I've got a rope stuck a time or two. Winds blow hard in patagonia! But the over hand is a great knott. Also learn the muter and the clove hitch.
Learn self-rescue. Join a Mt. Rescue team, or hire a guide and learn everything you can. It's very important, and even if you never have to use what you learn for a real rescue you can use it to speed up and improve your own climbing.
Be safe
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 3:28 AM
Post #12 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
In reply to: Hey Learn self-rescue. Join a Mt. Rescue team, or hire a guide and learn everything you can. It's very important, and even if you never have to use what you learn for a real rescue you can use it to speed up and improve your own climbing. Be safe
i couldn't agree more, i'm mostly just curious but wanna start climbing some big multi-pitch stuff, sport first, a year or so from now i really wanna learn to trad climb, but, hey, curiousity concerning safety didn't kill the cat did it?
|
|
|
|
|
perficthands
Jun 21, 2004, 4:00 AM
Post #13 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2004
Posts: 4
|
I use the "Figure 9", which is a Figure 8 with an extra half-twist. You put the ends of the 2 ropes you are joining together (right next to each other), and tie a figure 8, but use an extra half twist before you put the ends through. Try it, it's really easy. Once you tie it, pull it into a nice compact ball and "dress" it so it looks neat, and you're done.
It is way faster and easier to tie than a figure 8 follow-through or a double fishermans, and safer than an overhand. It has the same advantages as the overhand, if you do it right it pulls into a nice compact ball which sits away from the rock and almost never gets stuck. I've been using it for about 6 or 7 years, since a friend from New Zealand showed it to me, and I've never used any other rappel knot since then. It does not get stuck, does not come untied, and is fairly easy to untie after pulling your ropes.
I have no idea why no one else seems to use this knot, except that it is not in any of the books I've seen, and it is one more knot to learn, which may add slightly to the confusion for total novices. For anyone who can tie a figure 8, it is incredibly easy to learn and remember how to tie a figure 9.
|
|
|
|
|
rendog
Jun 21, 2004, 4:07 AM
Post #14 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 2468
|
In reply to: Hey Use the over hand. It's great. If you have any doughts, look in any climbing how to book. They all say it's ok. Be safe
well I'll put in my .02$ worth here I suppose. I always used a double fishermans knot. that is up until this last year. I spent a lot of time climbing with a good friend of mine who is about to become a guide. The ACMG way of tying the knot is the overhand knot (that's what I'm told anyway by quite a few of my guide friends). I thought it was just a load of bnk at first, but then I saw it use by many others in the same outfit and thought ok If this is the way that credited guides are doing it then it has to ok right?
|
|
|
|
|
badass
Jun 21, 2004, 5:09 AM
Post #15 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 228
|
The safest way is with a figure eight knot with double fishermans backups.
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Jun 21, 2004, 2:15 PM
Post #17 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
In reply to: The safest way is with a figure eight knot with double fishermans backups.
Don't forget the safeties after that with stoppers on the tails.
|
|
|
|
|
gds
Jun 21, 2004, 3:16 PM
Post #19 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 710
|
In reply to: The safest way is with a figure eight knot with double fishermans backups.
The safest way is to not climb at all.
But if you want to rap off of two ropes of similar diameter the EDK, a simple overhand knot with long tails is the way to go. The knot will not fail and is much less likely to snag and is relatively easy to untie.
As to the poster above who has thousands of raps without a snag. Perhaps on short routes, but it is hard to believe that to be the case on longer multi pitch routes. I don't know anyone who hasn't gotten a rope snagged at some point. The idea is to minimize the experience.
|
|
|
|
|
adamfox
Jun 21, 2004, 3:19 PM
Post #20 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2004
Posts: 26
|
The best way to tie two ropes together is the way that you have 100% mastery of doing.
It’s hard to say that one way is “safer” than the next, if safer is “stronger” how much is the maximum anticipated load in a rappeling situation? Or if “safer” is ease of tying/untying and lower chance of a snag? I.e. pitch 3 of a 7 pitch rapp, lightning storm coming in and you are trying to untie a big honking knot with fisherman’s backups either side.
I have done a lot of lab and field testing of knots/belay devices/pro and here’s what I have found regarding the “Euro Death Knot” AKA the “Flat Overhand” it tests incredibly well, the failure being “rolling off he end” rather than failure of material, but both at very high loads.
The Flat Overhand is a great way to tie ropes together but with any as with any system you must remember some key points:
Leave a long tail, around 18” or as long as your forearm, dress the knot, use same diameter ropes, tuck the tails up out of the way when you rig for rappel so that you don’t mistakenly put yourself on rappel on one of the tail strands.
Please email me if you are interested in the latest paper I have written that details testing on sling materials (wet and sry), knots, stoppers, belay devices and friction hitches. It’s free and in PDF format.
Regards,
Adam
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
steve0492
Jun 21, 2004, 11:51 PM
Post #22 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 2
|
the double fisherman's is easy to tie. when someone shows you in person it looks a lot more soimple :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
gds
Jun 21, 2004, 11:57 PM
Post #23 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 710
|
In reply to: the double fisherman's is easy to tie. when someone shows you in person it looks a lot more soimple :wink:
Yeah but its very hard to unite! And it has a tendency to get caught in cracks/features.
But go ahead and use it. Its safe--as long as you can get your rope free.
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Jun 22, 2004, 12:12 AM
Post #24 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: But go ahead and use it. Its safe--as long as you can get your rope free.
A couple of people in this thread have mentioned using a fig-8. It isn't clear exactly what they meant as there are many possible ways to do these various knots with two ropes, but if they mean tying it like the overhand (EDK), but with an extra twist, that's bad. More than one person has died from that one untying. It looks safer than the overhand, but tests show it is not safe. If you backed it up (as one or more of the posters suggested) maybe it would be safe from untying, but why start with a dangerous knot in the first place, when there are simple, safe, low-profile knots available.
|
|
|
|
|
knudenoggin
Jun 22, 2004, 12:48 AM
Post #25 of 50
(4308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 6, 2004
Posts: 596
|
In reply to: use the double fisherman here is a link to an exampe http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/JoinRopes.htm#Fisherman
First of all, note that this version of the Grapevine is NOT what almost everyone would tie,
and is shown in nearly every reference: this version is of strangle-knot components of opposite handedness!
(I.e., the proper, common version, has components that are identical, just facting opposite ways.)
Now, to the question, the link nicely shows the Offset Overhand abseil-rope-joining knot
immediately below the Grapevine ("Dbl.Fisherman's"). This is the knot favored for its
quick tying/untying, small size, and smooth flowing over rough surfaces.
In joining ropes of dfferent sizes, the THINNER rope should be in the position of the gold rope
in the linked image (looks like Bluewater II static line). This is because it
will then be better blocked against rolling over the thicker line; in the reverse
orienatation, the thick would too easily roll over the thin.
Also, in the tied-knot images for this Offset Overhand Bend, the golden (and would be THIN) end
should be pulled around so that it would be where the dark end is.
This anticipates the draw of the loaded parts, which will be pulling it back
the other way; it puts a possible deformation into a roll
that much more removed.
-----------
As for other options simillarly "offset", while the Offset Fig.9 is okay,
you really only need the lower (gold rope)part to be in a 9, and the
other could be an overhand--just make the extra wrap in the thinner
rope (which is what gives better prevention of rolling). You could also
make this a Fig.8
--knudenoggin
|
|
|
|
|
dredsovrn
Jun 22, 2004, 12:51 AM
Post #26 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1226
|
You can use a double fishermans, square fishermans (easy to untie), overhand with a backup, or eight. They all work. If you think it might be likely to get stuck, use the overhand, otherwise the double fishermans is pretty bomb proof, and as long as you aren't screwing around and bouncing, you won't have any trouble getting it untied.
|
|
|
|
|
sinshan
Jun 22, 2004, 1:02 AM
Post #27 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 93
|
As an avid reader of "accidents in North American Mountaineering," I'm pretty sure I remember catching a few reports that involved knot failure in the case of EDK's, and as such have always abhored the idea of using one on rappell.
Anyone else catch this? Wish I'd kept references to those damn stories. . .
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Jun 22, 2004, 1:07 AM
Post #28 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: As an avid reader of "accidents in North American Mountaineering," I'm pretty sure I remember catching a few reports that involved knot failure in the case of EDK's, and as such have always abhored the idea of using one on rappell. Anyone else catch this? Wish I'd kept references to those damn stories. . . |
|
|
|
|
imnotbob
Jun 22, 2004, 5:25 AM
Post #29 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2004
Posts: 80
|
I used to use a double fisherman's but have switched to an overhand WITH LONG TAILS! (just took getting stuck once to change!)
Looks scary at first but works great.
As far as the figure eight with fishermans backup...I've heard from several sources that it's a bad deal. plus, with that much rope in your knot, your back to a single rope rap!
BTW, what does EDK stand for?
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
Jun 22, 2004, 6:00 AM
Post #30 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
EuropeanDeathKnot, (to the best of my knowledge)
thanks for all the input, but as far as safety goes they all seem to have pro's/con's, it seems that it would be safest with tying the knot i'm most comfortable with which would be the figure 8, it seems like quite a safe knot from my knowledge of sport climbing seeing as how you tie in with it and had a bit of slippage when fallen on but with long enough tails and doing a steady paced rappel it seems to be just fine from what i can gather, it can get a little tricky to untie but with the right amount of teeth applied it'll pop right out! haha, thanks all of you though
[edited for spelling]
|
|
|
|
|
tech_dog
Jun 22, 2004, 6:12 AM
Post #31 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 224
|
My undestanding of the EDK was that it only applies to the one sided figure 8, i.e. loose ends both on the same side. The one sided figure 8 is a very weak knot and can fail under very normal loads.
The single overhand is a generally accepted safe knot, and tests have shown that it's nealry as strong as the double fishermans.
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
Jun 22, 2004, 6:20 AM
Post #32 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
from my basic knowledge double fisherman's seemed/looked safest, (not that looks really count) but since i dont know how to tie it too well i was just thinking that figure 8 seemed good for me, most everyone seems to agree on doublefisherman's,
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jun 22, 2004, 5:10 PM
Post #33 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
practice, practice, practice. you should be able to tie the double fishermans in your sleep, regardless if you use it for rappel or not. its one of the 'you really need to know this' knots.
however, an overhand pre-tensioned w/ long tails is fine and is quicker and easier to tie and untie.
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Jun 22, 2004, 5:25 PM
Post #34 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: from my basic knowledge double fisherman's seemed/looked safest, (not that looks really count) but since i dont know how to tie it too well i was just thinking that figure 8 seemed good for me, most everyone seems to agree on doublefisherman's,
People also get into some dicey situations when their rope gets stuck. Sometimes when the rope gets stuck, the retrieval options are pretty risky (e.g. self-belay up stuck rope; prussik up stuck rope). Another danger of getting a stuck rope is it increases the chance of getting benighted
The overhand minimizes the chance of a stuck rope. If you don't know it, you might want to learn (and learn to do it right, with long tails).
I agree that the double fishermans seems very strong. I might choose it for tying a fat rope to a skinny cord. I've read that the overhand is OK there too, but don't know of actual pull-testing, and it can be scary looking.
Oh, and the only time I remember doing something risky to retrieve a stuck rap rope, it wasn't a knot that was stuck. Still, I have a fear of stuck ropes, and try to avoid it by chooseing a small knot.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Jun 22, 2004, 5:28 PM
Post #35 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
I used to use a EDK, but when I actually saw it roll while someone else was on rappel I started used a double EDK - two flat overhands, one as backup tight to the first.
No problems, now.
T
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Jun 22, 2004, 5:34 PM
Post #36 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: Question: If the EDK is tied with long (12-18 inches) tails and is dressed before anyone rappells is there still a (reasonable) risk of the knot rollng on itself and becoming untied? With long tails the knot would have to roll on itself many, many, many times to become untied.
Edit: how did my answer show up in the thread before your question?
|
|
|
|
|
litedawg
Jun 22, 2004, 5:34 PM
Post #37 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2001
Posts: 337
|
Question:
If the EDK is tied with long (12-18 inches) tails and is dressed before anyone rappels is there still a (reasonable) risk of the knot rolling on itself and becoming untied?
With long tails the knot would have to roll on itself many, many, many times to become untied.
|
|
|
|
|
litedawg
Jun 22, 2004, 10:18 PM
Post #38 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2001
Posts: 337
|
After I posted the question I went back and edited it, you may have replyed while I was editing, this is only a guess.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Jun 22, 2004, 10:22 PM
Post #39 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: Question: If the EDK is tied with long (12-18 inches) tails and is dressed before anyone rappels is there still a (reasonable) risk of the knot rolling on itself and becoming untied?
Not really, no. It's within the realm of possibility, especially if the knot wasn't dressed and tight to begin with, but as the EDK gets tighter with every roll it would have to be pretty loose to roll down 18" tails. I generally put in tails about that long, dress the knot properly, and back it up with another overhand tight to the first.
T
|
|
|
|
|
tom_brennan
Jun 24, 2004, 11:20 PM
Post #40 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 3
|
See
http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/index.html
for fairly extensive research. Bottom line is, double fishermans is a strong knot, but if you have worries about the pull down, use the Overhand EDK (one-sided overhand bend).
For the Overhand EDK, the idea is that the knot does roll - but each time it rolls it is harder for it to roll again. This is in contrast to the Figure-8 EDK, which rolls further, and can keep rolling at low forces ... all the way to the end ...
Stick to those two knots and you should keep safe.
cheers
Tom
----
tomb@ozultimate.com
Canyoning? try http://www.ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://www.ozultimate.com/bushwalking
|
|
|
|
|
youngphil
Jun 27, 2004, 7:17 PM
Post #41 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 30, 2003
Posts: 25
|
I always use the Double Fishermans knot. True it is a little hard to get untied when you pull them down, but I have never had a problem with it getting stuck or anything like that.
|
|
|
|
|
iclimbtoo
Jun 27, 2004, 9:20 PM
Post #42 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 10, 2002
Posts: 645
|
I tie my rope to the anchors and then just rappel off the end and hope it's nice and soft below
Double fisherman's (aka grapevine) or the figure 9 are good
|
|
|
|
|
pmagistro
Jun 27, 2004, 10:14 PM
Post #43 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 89
|
I used to be a big fan of the double fisherman's knot; no doubt that it is a 'safe' option in terms of the knot itself. However, it does become stuck easily and is relatively difficult to untie. The flat knots ('death knots') tend to scare me....especially the single overhand. Too much chance of rollover for me. I really can't come up with a good reason not to use the figure-8 if you insist on a flat knot.
For me, the best compromise between 'safety', ease of use, and probability of getting stuck is a Flemish bend, also known as a figure 8 on a bend. The knot is almost the same as you would use to tie into a rope, just reweave the end of the other rope through the figure eight skeleton.
Couple of reasons...for one, all climbers know and recognize the knot and how to tie it correctly. It is no doubt 'safe' in that it will not come undone if tied correctly. It leaves some chance of stuck ropes, but not quite as bad as with double fishermans or any of the larger knots. Finally, it is quick and easy to tie and untie.
My $.02.....climb safe!
|
|
|
|
|
tech_dog
Jun 27, 2004, 10:48 PM
Post #44 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 224
|
In reply to: I used to be a big fan of the double fisherman's knot; no doubt that it is a 'safe' option in terms of the knot itself. However, it does become stuck easily and is relatively difficult to untie. The flat knots ('death knots') tend to scare me....especially the single overhand. Too much chance of rollover for me. I really can't come up with a good reason not to use the figure-8 if you insist on a flat knot.
The flat figure 8 is an exceptionally weak and dangerous knot. You're much better off with the single overhand.
From Tom Moyer's testing page:
"The flat-overhand is clearly better than the flat-figure-eight. The flat-eight is represented three-to-one in the accidents despite (to the best of my knowledge) many more climbers using the overhand. The flat-eight also starts flipping at a lower load (750 lbs vs 1400 lbs for well-tied, 110 lbs vs 200 lbs for badly tied) than the overhand, and it eats two to three times as much tail in each flip."
The test results are here: http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
|
|
|
|
|
pmagistro
Jun 27, 2004, 11:02 PM
Post #45 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 89
|
tech_dog, thanks for the citation. I hadn't seen that study. Moyer's work has changed my climbing habits in the past (with respect to high strength cord)...
Still, I stick with the flemish bend in almost all circumstances. Not out of ignorance for stuck ropes...I've had an epic or two. I find that my partners are generally more comfortable with it, in addition to the reasons I mentioned before.
Boils down to a personal preference, I suppose...
|
|
|
|
|
ductape
Jun 27, 2004, 11:34 PM
Post #46 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 2
|
[quote="badass"]The safest way is with a figure eight knot with double fishermans backups.
That depends on the situation. A fig-8 is more prone to jamming than an EDK. If you're rapping off a mountain route, with a bad storm coming in, a jammed rope can prove fatal. Death ain't so safe.
RE another posting - using the fact that a bunch of AMCGA guides use a particular method to claim that it is safe/the best/whatever is not the best thought-process, IMO. These guys are really good, sure, but it's a bad trait to say "I see these guys doing X, so X is safe for me" - always think it through for yourself, to see if it makes sense, if it works, and if it's appropriate to your specific problem. Sure, look at what they do, and learn from it (that's a VERY good idea!!) but think it through for yourself. The "why" is even more important than the "what".
|
|
|
|
|
az_biner
Jun 28, 2004, 12:53 AM
Post #47 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2004
Posts: 39
|
if one is worried of their rap knot rolling and untying..use the figure 8 follow through with double fishermans backup...or...the square knot with double fishermans backup. does make you wonder, when a knot has the word death in it doesn't it...as in the edk. the square knot with fishermans backups is easy and fast to tie..and relatively easy to untie. rap on.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Jun 28, 2004, 1:10 AM
Post #48 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
EDK... Simple well dressed overhand with about 12" of tails.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jun 28, 2004, 5:49 AM
Post #50 of 50
(4224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
how can this topic have possibly gotten to 4 pages to tell people about 3 different knots? :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
|
