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mackavus
Jul 6, 2004, 1:21 PM
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rwaltermyer
Jul 6, 2004, 1:41 PM
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I'd be hestitant...
I understand that its nice to "share". But why not keep it on a PM by PM basis? Just like Gretna. Yes, you can find directions on other forums. But by carefully releasing the directions, it would minimize the impact.
Of course, I know how to get there, so I'm "in".
randy
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mackavus
Jul 6, 2004, 1:56 PM
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Randy,
I get your point... but you have been there and you have seen the impact. Its pretty damn substantial, and permanent. This place is SO good that I dont think it is right to hold out on the directions to people who have never been there. I also dont consider it "sharing" when the area is a state owned natural area, that is known to MANY.
Also, this place has not been kept secret because of the impact... its cause people want it to themselves, and the locals want to climb on the private side without drawing attention to themselves. I dont think that is fair to everyone else who could use the HUGE public side, and get to experience the quality of Hunters. Like I said, as long as everone treads lightly... and stays out of dudes land, the impact isnt the issue here.
What do you think? Anyone else?
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fleamodee
Jul 6, 2004, 2:48 PM
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You are crazy, your reasoning is absurd. Impact?, yeah there's trails, definately not anything out of the ordinary. Hunter's is very fragile place, in the spring wild orchids bloom, a crazy variety of mushrooms exist. The land owner, and yes he does own the land, tolerates a small population it seems. Lets get it right, the public side does not have a ton of climbs, maybe 30 or so, it's spread out. The private side is where most of the climbs are and has the best concentration. I have no problem sharing the place with people, neither do any of the locals, I know them all. I found the place without directions why can't everyone else. If you don't like that then there's other ways to go about it, like a pm, I would love to show anyone around. I just don't think giving directions on the internet to an area on private land is good idea. Do you see directions for the Holy boulders on the internet? No. Furthermore, you say all the classics were renamed, yet my friend PM'ed Mackavus and this person said he didn't post that info on the front page for hunters. So who are you? Maybe writing a guide? Like I said before, It's on private land, the owner is cool for at this time. Maybe he won't be so cool in the future, that's all. Just my opinion. Brian M. I'm adding what Mackavus originally wrote because it disappeared..."Posted: 06 Jul 2004 13:21 Post subject: Hunters Directions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am going to post the directions.
Why? "Why?", you ask. I will tell you why.
There are many people who are local to Hunters that dont want you there. They want the area to themselves and do not want to see anyone new experience it. They will tell you that access is an issue, and that its illegal to climb there. Now, I guess this wouldnt be that big of a deal if the area was semi-secret, or if the impacts to the area were incredibly minimal. Well I have to tell you that Hunters does not fall into either of those two categories. MANY people know about the area, and more would love to experience it. The area is also impacted heavily, there are trails everwhere, and even camping clearings with fire rings. There is minimal vegetation very close to the boulders and it isnt going to come back any time soon. As long as you leave only footprints, and maybe a little chalk, you are not going to impact this area any more than it already is. I am strongly against people being told NOT to go to a public area for bogus reasons, such as locals wanting it to themselves, and it is for this reason that I am going to post the directions. Anyone can get this information if they know how. I think it would be better to inform them not to go over to dudes land, but let them know where everything else is. There is NO reason to be stingy with this place. Yes, there is a small private section. Yes, many classics are on it. But the majority of the ridge is public. Stay out of the private area and we wont have any problems. Many popular crags, have areas where you are not supposed to go. Anyone hear of the Red??? Is that place kept a secret?
If you dont want me to PM with clear reasons why, or post with them. Maybe I wont then. I dont want to piss people off but if you dont have any reasons other than the little section that is on private land, I am still going to post them.
edited to add info, spelling"
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jason1
Jul 7, 2004, 12:08 AM
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brian said it best....
good going to B and ken roth
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rwaltermyer
Jul 7, 2004, 10:08 AM
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while I see the intent there-- wanting to be unselfish and share-- I definitely agree w/ fleamodee. Sounds very similar to what is happening at Gretna.
Even with no directions posted to there, the amount of climbers is increasing there b/c so many ppl now talk about it. So shhhhh! Hunters?
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roclimb
Jul 7, 2004, 3:47 PM
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Sorry about that guys,
I was actually the one who updated the Hunter's history info. For some reason it did not list my screenname when I did it.
I have been doing a lot of rescearch on Hunters and I figured there should at least be some acurate history about the area provided.
Its truely amazing, some of the routes I thought I put up there in the late 80's were actually established 2 decades before I even climbed there. I'm totally psyched about it.
By the way if people respect the private property there is no problem with directions to Hunter's. Everyone and his brother knows about Hunter's and directions are as simple as walking in the local shop and asking. There are tons of boulder problems on the Game Lands side and its legal to climb there. Its overwhelming the amount of people who know about this spot so directions at this point online will make no difference. Gretna is a lot on Game lands also (except a small section on local school property).
It's a beautyfull place, why keep it a secret if 2-miles of it are legal.
~Rob :D
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fleamodee
Jul 7, 2004, 6:40 PM
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Rob, I don't know you, I have never seen you at hunters, I lived in state college for 3 years and still frequent the area, never saw you once. Are you local to area? I could be wrong but I don't think you are. Is there a reason why you feel the need to publish all this information? Why don't you give the directions to all the wilkes-barre/scranton areas that i've heard you talk about? Are they your local areas and you wouldn't want a ton of people showing up and chipping holds creating trash, etc? I'm all for sharing knowledge about bouldering spots...the people that will respect the land will find a way to get there, I am also about finding them on my own...there's more pleasure in it that way. If you were so concerned about the private section of hunter's why didn't you give directions to the power cut parking lot, the majority of the climbs on state land are on that side of the ridge anyway. You just don't make much sense, sorry. As for the problems that were renamed lets hear which ones, put your money where your mouth is
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rwaltermyer
Jul 7, 2004, 7:14 PM
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lets do this with some standard of maturity... and preserve whats left of the PA climber's image when it comes to discussing Hunters.
(See neb.com if you're lost on this one...)
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jkarns
Jul 7, 2004, 7:33 PM
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I have never fully agreed with the reasoning that has been presented for keeping the Gretna directions secret. All of the boulders (except for some minor, little known boulders) are on land that is open for public recreation. The primary reason I've been handed over the years is the chipping issue. Sure, locals are all aware that there was a spell a number of years ago where some chipping occurred. Locals are also aware that the chipping has not at all been an ongoing problem. Furthermore, I see no threat of increased chipping due to directions being post on the net.
The one real reason I see for not posting directions is that the boulders are so crazy hard to find. Sure directions to the parking area are easy. However, from there things get much more complicated. That being said, I beleive that writing directions to the coldflesh/bodysnap area would be easy enough, and a little wandering from that point could get one to most of the other boulders.
I was not one of the primary developers of Gretna, but I am good friends with most of them. None of them post regularly on this board, and you do not need to be concerned that I will post directions, as it is pretty clear that the climbing community as a whole is a against it. I don't 100% understand why though.
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roclimb
Jul 7, 2004, 8:17 PM
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Fleamodee,
No, I am not a local at the moment at Hunters and you obviously knew that as you mentioned about my Scranton / Wilkes Barre areas. I first started climbing there in the 80’s when I was in high school and friends of mine who went to PSU invited me there to climb. I was very active then and in my college years and thereafter. If you have only been there for 3 years you would not have ran into me as I have only been there about a handful of times since 1997/98.
If anyone wants to know about Wilkes/Barre Scranton I almost always tell them unless the area is on private land. I'm sure a lot of climbers can verify since I have given directions out to dozens of areas in Northeast PA including Scranton Wilkes Barre to just about anyone who has asked me. Want to find any? Send me a PM I would be more than happy to share.
You said in your original post you were going to post directions to Hunter's. Why are you now angry that I am giving directions to Hunter’s? This seems very unusual to me.
People all over the country know about Hunter's. The important thing at the moment is to inform the community that part IS on private land but the majority (2-miles) is on State Game lands and jointly owned by Rothrock State Forest. A very popular hiking trail (the Link Trail) also goes through the majority of Hunters property. This is how many climbers first discovered Hunter's. There is a guidebook for the hiking trail. The hiking trail has not closed the area. Listing the problems on public land will increase use to the public part and decrease use on the private. Most of the reason no one climbs on the public side is that they have no idea what the problems there are.
So many people are using the area now that it is imposable to stop them. The best thing now is to inform the community what is going on and the rules as to where you can climb and where you can't climb.
If you ever want to talk more about the land ownership or what you can do to help access issues out at Hunter's, I would be glad to talk about it.
Happy Climbing
~Rob :
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fleamodee
Jul 7, 2004, 9:41 PM
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Rob, I never said I was going to post the directions, the section in my first post to this topic that says anything about directions was the original post by mackavus that was erased. If you read down through my post it states that right after my name. If you will give out info on your home areas only by pm than why can't the same thing be done for hunter's? Seems reasonable to me. I'm not going to let this thing get anywhere near the craziness that happened on neb.com, so unless I feel unbelievable compelled I'm done talking about it. BrianM
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jason1
Jul 7, 2004, 11:18 PM
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i gotta agree agin with brian... rob, calling people a bunch of nieve locals and accusing of people of renaming classic routes isn't going to make you any friends... if you have something to say on a route just say it, we'll do our books you do your books and we'll arrive at something we can say is the closest version of the truth... of course, if there's some hugh herr route there it's going to be recognized.
And that's pretty low to go around posting directions to peoples areas... especially for someone who works for the AF. shame on you...
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mackavus
Jul 8, 2004, 12:01 AM
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You know what. I totally was out of this conversation and had given up on what I thought was right, and I was not going to post the directions, and I had decided that although I disagreed, I would side with you guys.
I have changed my mind.
I just read "Peoples Areas" and that was enough to piss me off again. I completely know and understand that you have done alot for Hunters with the road and blahblah, but SINCE WHEN does that give you guys any form of ownership?!
"pretty low to go around posting directions to peoples areas" .....please... give me a fucking break here. "peoples areas" HA! Who the hell proclaimed these guys the owners, and elite members of this area. It is a HUGE area with a MASSIVE portion that is public. Hiding stuff like this just for the locals own benefit is so selfish and disgusting it make me want to puke. I actually had one person tell me: "Fuck the masses, I dont give a shit about anyone else who wants to use that area." Thats real good, real good.
I think that if ANYONE in PA would understand access issues its Rob, and it seems the guy cares more about accuracy than any thing else.
It also seems that people from the Hunters area care more about first ascents than anything in the World. The locals, especially Randy from what Jason told me in a PM, almost had a frickin coronary when some other dude almost sent his project that 15 minutes before he cared nothing about. It just sounds like some of the locals think that there can be NO WAY anyone else climbed thier problems before they did. Who cares?! I mean, it has to be friggin great to have some first acsents credited to you, but is that all these guys care about??? Do they feel they have to leave some legacy behind or something? Give me a break. Yeah, Im sure that the only thing on Robs mind is that he wants to piss people off by telling them thier FAs are worth dik. I cant wait till the book comes out, thats all I am saying.
Am I going to post them??? eh.... prolly not, but I still think this is retarded.
Peace. :x
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roclimb
Jul 8, 2004, 7:48 PM
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Jason,
You said.....In reply to: And that's pretty low to go around posting directions to peoples areas... especially for someone who works for the AF. shame on you...
I have nothing to be ashamed about and there is no reason I should. Many climbing areas in the U.S. have the same access situation as Hunter's and people are still alowed to climb there. Hueco has much of its bouldering closed but much is open, Peterskill only allows climbing on 10% of its boulders, Mohank Preserve (gunk's) closed the fantastic bouldering at skytop and the base of Millbrook. Climbers respect and obide by the regulations at these spots and there is no reason for the same at Hunters.
By the way I remember you posting Hunter's on Rock N Road online a while back, it was then updated by Eric Harrison- who Zweig proudly siad was a climbing partner of you guys- this Hunters info is in a nationally
published book. He also did a guidebook for hunters, you are also featured in an online video guide of Hunters on Synrock. So I think this is the pot calling the kettle black here. Dont worry though as the area is mostly on Public lands.
It does however list in Rock N Road (I just looked at the book at Border's) that you gave directions to Minersville- a closed climbing area and The Rim, a very access sensitive area. You gave directions to both areas. Luckily you listed The Rim as in Philladelphia (200 miles from its actual location). Have you actually been there? So I guess maybee I am not the one who should be ashamed here.
I'm sorry that you don't know the History of your local area and the world renown boulderers who climbed there before you. I was lucky enough to be bouldering there long enough to know who they were and what they did. So I guess that shoots a hole in your theory that my friends and I were not climbing there before you guys. But you already know that don't you.
Anyway thats all I am going to say about Hunters as I think my points are very clear and valid.
Happy Climbing
~Rob :D
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jason1
Jul 9, 2004, 12:33 PM
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yeah rob, my natural willingness to share beta makes me an easy target for guidebook whores like yourself... always needling you for annother piece of info for thier guidebook.... like angry dragon, huh rob... it's your favorite problem, where?
it's funney... a couple of months ago you wanted to know route info at hunters... then you got whooped on by randy and chris over at neb.... BTW, you ever get those pic of that 5.6 you you said you sent that randy called bs on...now you're acting like a child.... i've asked you before if you have info on hunters for months.... i'd like to hear it... what it's not my climbs being renamed...
as for accuracy, well... i expect it'll be about as accurate as your posts.... so i'm not to worried.... you're points are far from valid and far from true.
that's it for me.... btw, i live in ut.... so it's not like i'm trying to keep the place to myself...
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mackavus
Jul 9, 2004, 12:43 PM
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OK I hate to get involved in a little "sub-topic agument" here, but just so Rob can have a little backup... I read those threads over at NEB and I wouldnt say that Randy or Chris "whooped" on Rob or anyone else. I think it was a poor display from everyone, and since Chris deleted over 80% of his posts since then, I think there would be some doubt as to him thinking that he "whooped" anyone.
grammar edit
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roclimb
Jul 9, 2004, 3:43 PM
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Typical Hunters local behavior,
I make curtious fact based responses to people who quote that I am "talking shat about their problems" then I am called a "Child".
Typical Hunters behavior.
Anyway Jay, You said you want some of the history I am talking about. Dont play dumb. I gave you a lot of history and specific names of people at Hunters that dated back to the 60's (should I post the response I sent you on neb) You graced me with false info about your and Randys claims at hunters and said one of you put up a V11 named black Snake boogie, Randy later said it was a V3. So why tell me it is V11?
I have been honest and trying to credit your crew that climbed there in the late 90's for the handfull of problems they did actually establish. I have been met with responses like yours to delibritly make it impossable to get the truth about what you actually did.
Like the V14 you claimed you guys did there in an old e-mail you sent me. You know the one you said is"harder than Martini roof at Hueco".
As for me not knowing about your other secret areas" angry Dragon" in Central PA. Maybee I will just post directions on this site to Mapleton, Chestnut Ridge, Goodman Quarry, Pulpit Rocks, Bear Rocks, Mach Chunck Ridge, The Spires, Black Rocks. Then we will see what I know about and dont know about. Want to take that chance I dont know where it is? They are all on State owned property.
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fleamodee
Jul 9, 2004, 4:32 PM
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I thought that problem was at the same area as Moment of Zen, or did you just make that up on neb.com? You did say it was your very favorite there...hahahahaha
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rockjess
Jul 9, 2004, 4:33 PM
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-J,
roclimb did not get whooped on as you say. From what I remember from NEB.com roclimb pretty much proved everything centard and radsi said as being wrong.
He was also right on about centarl's problems being massively over graded. Brett Myers and another dude drove from Boston and downgraded his Lynn rated V12 to a mere V8. and Randy’s V10 to V8, and that was when it was covered in ice.
Or did you forget about who really got whooped.
Jessie
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jason1
Jul 9, 2004, 11:16 PM
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ok, one more that's it...
rob, just the fact that you're threating a bunch of areas now shows that you will jepordize an area out of spite... shame on you... and some of your posts sound like a crazed lunitic... btw, did i mention i live in utah? you're only screwing yourself... i'll be kicking back, up at joe's and smiling about the whole thing...
jess, ratings are a consenus.... you need multipule opinions on grade... granted i'm not saying those climbs arn't V8 and v whatever... they may be easier... randy may have been having a fat day... we all have'em... but as far as strong east coast climbers randy and chris are up there...
that's it i'm outtie...
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roclimb
Jul 10, 2004, 11:05 PM
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Jay,
once again you are the only one name calling.
And the areas I am posting (like the one I just posted) are on public lands and allow climbing. So I am not ruining climbing for anyone just letting PA climbers find out about some nice PUBLIC spots. You guys choose to keep them secret cause you want em to yourselves. I like to spread the word soo all can enjoy. No harm in that especially since they are on PUBLIC land.
~Rob
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roclimb
Jul 10, 2004, 11:13 PM
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Jason removed the directions to an area called Bear Rocks I posted.
This area is in Black Moshannon state park. They allow climbing there.
I think we can all see what virtues Jason stands for now.
I guess you arnt sitting back in UT without a care.
Put your greed aside and grow up man. The climbing area is on public land. Why should only you know about it?
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fleamodee
Jul 11, 2004, 2:19 AM
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It's not on public land, it's definately private.
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jkarns
Jul 11, 2004, 3:21 AM
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In reply to: It's not on public land, it's definately private.
This has been discussed at great length. While some of Hunter's is private, much of it is public.
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jason1
Jul 11, 2004, 5:18 AM
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the guys name is lou shoemaker... he rents the hunting cabin down the road... i think you should talk to him... do your due dilligence rob...
why not post up some directions for tillbury? to close to home?
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randisi
Jul 11, 2004, 1:13 PM
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I don't want to waste anymore time arguing with spiteful prevaricators. I do want to support Jason.
Rob, Jason didn't lie to you about the Black Snake Boogie. He merely got the name wrong. Jason often doesn't keep names straight. Common problem. There is a problem that traverses underneath Black Snake Boogie put up by Zweig called Sweet Bulimia. And yes, it's rated an unconfirmed V11. Please come, lie about climbing it and down-rate it to V6.
Randy
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fleamodee
Jul 11, 2004, 3:47 PM
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jkarns, I wasn't talking about hunters.
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jkarns
Jul 11, 2004, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: jkarns, I wasn't talking about hunters.
What exactly were you talking about, because I can't figure it out! (that's what the quote feature is for!)
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fleamodee
Jul 11, 2004, 7:31 PM
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Jkarns, I have no idea how to use the quote feature. Read the post right above where I write "It's not on public land..." Maybe I was talking about that post? In reply to: This area is in Black Moshannon state park. They allow climbing there. |
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rwaltermyer
Jul 12, 2004, 2:28 AM
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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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nafod
Jul 15, 2004, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: Jason removed the directions to an area called Bear Rocks I posted. This area is in Black Moshannon state park. They allow climbing there.
It's not in the state park. It's on private land.
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rockjess
Jul 19, 2004, 10:30 PM
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Randolf said,Rob, Jason didn't lie to you about the Black Snake Boogie. He merely got the name wrong. Jason often doesn't keep names straight. Common problem.In reply to: Randolf, your quote above clearly states that Jason lance does not even know the name of a V11 at Hunter's; so you are saying that one of the hardest lines at Hunter's a so-called local who developed climbs there does not even know the name of? you say he In reply to: Well I guess that proves Robs point then. The Hunter's locals don't know #### about their own area and if it is as you say a common problem then I guess Rob is right on about his assesment of the poor history of the area. I saw pictures at a slide show of some legendary boulderers that were climbing at Hunter's a long long time ago. They developed stuff there. you have no clue who they were. You claim no one developed anything at Hunter's except you and your buddies a few years ago. you don't know crap about your own local bouldering area. When Rob's book comes out you are going to look like a bigger fool than you already do. Jessie |
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rockjess
Jul 19, 2004, 10:36 PM
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By the way Bear Rocks is in the state park. Why is it that State College locals spread heavy rumors about every spot in an hour drive of the town is closed yet they print and distribute a guidebook to Bellfonte quarry; one of the most access sensitive areas on the East Coast.
Jessie
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fleamodee
Jul 20, 2004, 2:31 AM
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In reply to: By the way Bear Rocks is in the state park.
Go to the county courthouse look up lou shoemaker and prove us wrong, you won't be able to.
In reply to: Why is it that State College locals spread heavy rumors about every spot in an hour drive of the town is closed yet they print and distribute a guidebook to Bellfonte quarry; one of the most access sensitive areas on the East Coast.
You think possible that could have been a couple of years ago before the access got shady?
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rockjess
Jul 20, 2004, 2:58 AM
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Fleamodee said,
In reply to: You think possible that could have been a couple of years ago before the access got shady?
Like when? When it was an operating quarry?
You said the guy rents a cabin at Bear. first of all if he rents that don't make him the land owner.
Second: Who does he rent from. Duh...maybee Black Moshannon State Park.
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jason1
Jul 20, 2004, 5:40 AM
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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA...............
he owns the land and rents the cabin to hunters...
who knows, mebbie he's psyched to have a bunch of people running around bouldering.... i think someone should ask...
critical reading skills are lacking in this group....
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synrock
Jul 21, 2004, 12:30 AM
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Every access problem is different. The more "local" the person, the better position they are in to be able to formulate effective access policies.
Bellefonte is a quarry. Officially bellefonte is closed. Unofficially we climb there all the time.
What is the difference between Bellefonte and Hunters and Bear rocks?
Bellefonte is owned by a corporation and all they care about is liability. Officially it is closed. The locals and the cops who occasionally kick people out - are actually pro climbing. It's good for the local economy. It gives Bellefontians a small element of pride (and pocket cash) that people from all around the state go there to climb in the quarry that they all went swimming in when they were kids.
Continued climbing isn't going to hurt access there. Seeing that two of the bellefonte quarries have actually been FILLED IN a few years ago, I say climb there while the place STILL EXISTS! Get enough people fired up about the place so that maybe someday there will be enough momentum for the access fund or somebody to perhaps buy the place. Before they decide to fill in the main quarry. The new home owners that are now spitting distance from the top of coleman's want the place filled in. If everyone stops climbing there who is going to say no?
Hunters is owned by an old guy who has a cranky son. They have a cabin not far from the parking area. They don't spend much time there but last year the cranky son got fired up because someone broke into the cabin so he went patrolling around the place with a shotgun kicking people out. Obviously a different situation. Go to hunters if you are in the area but don't advertise the place. That is the best policy I can think of for hunters. Don't give the land owner cause to freak out by keeping visits to a minimum.
Bear Rocks is a big unkown. The land is actually posted. You come across the signs on the way in - although they are very very old. The guy that owns bear rocks uses the land as a hunting preserve.
You have to think.... Is this guy going to want lots of people strolling through his hunting preserve? I gotta say no. Best not to advertise the place.
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synrock
Jul 21, 2004, 1:05 AM
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In reply to: As for me not knowing about your other secret areas" angry Dragon" in Central PA. Maybee I will just post directions on this site to Mapleton, Chestnut Ridge, Goodman Quarry, Pulpit Rocks, Bear Rocks, Mach Chunck Ridge, The Spires, Black Rocks. Then we will see what I know about and dont know about. Want to take that chance I dont know where it is? They are all on State owned property.
There is no climbing area called angry dragon. That area on the video on the synrock website is unfortuantely on private land and it isn't anywhere you think it is.
Posting directions to mapleton would perhaps be tantamount to reckless endangerment. Mapleton is perhaps the most dangerous climbing area in the country. Go to the wrong area at the wrong time of year and you've got north face eiger rockfall. Get on the wrong climb or do the second pitch of something and you are not going to have a good time. I might do a small guide to the place just to lessen the chance of people dying - but only after word gets out. And there is no place to park and the mining company guys will kick you out.
Chestnut ridge is huge. You can't just say chestnut ridge, that is like saying the appalacians.
Pulpit rocks is very limited top-roping except for the secret sport pinnacle near there (unfortunately private land - we've been kicked out).
Goodman quarry has a parking access issue and it's also a bit on the dangerous side. And some guy with a shotgun "thinks" he owns it.
Mauch chunk is a geologic formation name. Ridges of it cross the entire state.
You are trolling for info. Spend your time looking - it will be more productive.
jim bowers
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roclimb
Jul 21, 2004, 1:30 AM
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Im not trolling for anything. Angry Dragon is at an area you call 22-boulders if I am correct. Its very close to Mapleton.
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rockjess
Jul 21, 2004, 1:54 AM
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Jim bowers,
Wow, your logic is truely perplexing. You have been distributing a guidebook for Bellfonte quarry for years, you admit the area is closed, yet somehow since you are the one doing it, it's ok. Yet someone want's to post directions to an area that is 90% on public lands and you have a problem with it. Not the sharpest piton on the rack are ya?
As for the dude with the shotgun and the broken in cabin, you said it was last year, huh? Come on dude I heard that B.S story 4-years ago. Does someone brake in his cabin every year? Any one on this site knows who has been to hunter's that B.S story has been goin round for years. A local told me it is a story they spread around to keep people out of their area. Like the B.S about the overturned cars. You guys need to get your lies straight dude.
As for Rob trolling......well I guess he knows enough about Bear Rocks to get your panties in a grind. Now you chalanged him again. Please, please Rob post directions to another one of their secret spots so I can go find it. Bear Rocks was a blast.
Dude, this Robbie guy is a PA encyclopedia of rock. He has forgotted about more areas than anyone in PA knows about.
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roclimb
Jul 21, 2004, 2:15 AM
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Jessie,
Lets put this topic to rest. It's going nowhere. Bear and Hunters are mostly public , thats why I posted directions but I am sorry there are a few of their secret spots that are on private land (a few but not all), so I am sorry but I can't in good conscience post directions to them.
Since no one seems to have problems with PM's though, I just sent you some directions to some spots I think you will like. You might want to check out Pecock road near you in lock heaven. It's a small spot but nice. And its on game lands so you can climb there. There is a nice spot on the ridge near Boyalsburgh too worth hiking to, I sent directions so you can check those and a few others out.
Kudos
~Rob :D
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synrock
Jul 21, 2004, 9:04 AM
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In reply to: Jim bowers, Wow, your logic is truely perplexing. You have been distributing a guidebook for Bellfonte quarry for years, you admit the area is closed, yet somehow since you are the one doing it, it's ok. Yet someone want's to post directions to an area that is 90% on public lands and you have a problem with it. Not the sharpest piton on the rack are ya?
Ok first we need to have a little "reading" lession. Reading means you read words, and then you try to figure out what they mean. I'll go slow so maybe you have a chance.
I am advocating climbing at bellefonte because climbing there doesn't jepordize future access. There are plans to FILL IT IN! As in WIPE IT OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH. I feel we need as many people as possible to climb there to provide access "voices" and maybe a reason not to get rid of it (tourism dollars to depressed town).
If you call app. ski and outdoors (234-3000) and ask about the chances of getting a Bellefonte guide book, they will laugh at you "well maybe in 6 months cause that lazy asshole jim bowers only brings in a half dozen every 6 months or so." I have no economic incentive in this situation.
Now, I am not advocating climbing at hunters because - now listen closely...
If you climb at hunters you will spend over 90% of the time on the posted land. IT IS POSTED. Someone took down the signs at the top of the hill but they are still at the bottom. IT is posted.
Now. Bear Rocks is 100% on posted land. Not 90% in a park. 100% on posted land.
What is the difference between bellefonte and the other 2?
Bellefonte owned by corporation - climbing will never be permitted, future trespassing is irrelvelant to that issue.
Hunters and Bear rocks are owed by a "person"
Maybe we can, maybe we can't - it is all up to the wims of 1 person. future trespassing by lots of people is revelant to this issue.
Do yah see the difference?
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synrock
Jul 21, 2004, 9:15 AM
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In reply to: I just sent you some directions to some spots I think you will like. You might want to check out Pecock road near you in lock heaven. It's a small spot but nice. And its on game lands so you can climb there. There is a nice spot on the ridge near Boyalsburgh too worth hiking to, I sent directions so you can check those and a few others out. Kudos ~Rob :D
Oh come on. Now you are sending this poor schmuck off to check out potential areas for you?
I've done that to friends I don't like - but never to complete strangers.
At least send him to elk. That's a real bouldering area and it's close to Lock Haven. I'd show the guy some cool stuff in the area but he doesn't make friends very well does he?
Making friends will get you a lot farther in this world son - a lot farther than bitching.
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roclimb
Jul 21, 2004, 1:42 PM
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Jim,
The stuff in Elk SF. I had been to the stuff off the hiking trail years ago. You know the trail with the nice rock passage that splits it. I dont see why people like it so much. The stuff near the Barillium Oside is not much better either. I guess people like it though.
If your interested I know of a spot identical to Hunters Rock. Its a Hunters sister area near Elk State Forest. (Not too far outside the park that is. Its not actually in Elk state Forest). It has bolted sport lines, and tons of boulders.
Let me know if you are interested.
~Rob :D
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rockjess
Jul 21, 2004, 3:20 PM
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Jim,
You said
"Bellefonte is owned by a corporation and all they care about is liability. Officially it is closed. The locals and the cops who occasionally kick people out - are actually pro climbing. It's good for the local economy. "
Do you actually believe the people escorting you off the land “like climbers” Ya it’s good for the local economy as they kick you off the property. Tell me Jim, do they hand you food vouchers good at any of the local shops as they pat you on the butt and say good riddens. Ya, now that I think of it all the restaurants post on their marquees “Welcome Climbers”, climbers are so known to shell out loads of cash freely when they visit places. I think they rank right up there with all those wealthy bankers that go on vacation in the Hamptons or Club Med.
You have a strange way of justifying that you did a guidebook for a closed and access dangered area dude.
You pretend to be such an access advocate Jim then why don’t you do something about Bellfonte Jim? Instead of spreading a guidebook out to a closed area and lashing out at climbers for going to areas on State Game Lands (like Hunter's) where they can climb why not do something productive like talking to the quarry and getting them to turn the land over to climbers rather than sitting on your butt and doing nothing while they fill it in and saying “lots of climbers should now about this place cause I did a guide and they are filling the place in”
Does the quarry know you printed a guidebook to their private property? Maybe you should tell them about it and how many millions of dollars the climbers contribute to their local economy.
You say that no one should know about Hunter’s because the land owner who owns only 10% of the land there will get pissed and not allow climbing, yet every weekend I go there there are at lease 20 climbers there. YOU regularly go there. What happens if he runs into you there? It will have the same effect if a climber who got directions there is caught. So what’s the difference? Is he going to say “Oh Jim bowers is ok to climb here cause he already knows about the spot but anyone who got directions of rocclimbing.com has to get off my land”. From what I understand, you, this Randy guy, and Jason are the ones who hyped the place up in the first place. Supposedly only a few dozen climbers had been climbing there prior to 1998 then “BING” you guys came there and now hundreds
Dont compare Bellfonte and Hunter's as being adversly different access situations just so you can sleep at night nowing you are distributing a guidebook for one of the most access endangered areas in the country dude. Be realistic; Hunter's is 90% on public lands, let the community know this by guidebook,online directions etc. that clearly state you can only climb in certain boundaries. They do it at peterskill.
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fleamodee
Jul 21, 2004, 3:39 PM
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Rockjess, read the damn posts. They have filled in some of the quarries with dirt, i.e. no climbing ever again. Therefore, if people don't climb at the main quarry there will be no voices to save it if and when they decide to fill it in as well. Do you understand? NO CLIMBERS = filled in quarry, that isn't an access issue that means it will be IMPOSSIBLE to climb there. As far as money in people's pockets, stop at the Penn state sub shop in bellefonte some time bring up climbing with the owner, he will say he has no problem with you parking there, and will then say he would appreciate if you could stop and get some food/drinks/ice cream when you are done. He may tell you not to swim in the pool because there's some cars there, other than that he's all about people being there. I don't think you are close enough to the situation to have a basis to make any judgements upon access, that goes for hunters, bear rocks, bellefonte, the meteor boulders, polymorphic boulders, homunculus boulders, or the nowhere boulders. BrianM
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mackavus
Jul 21, 2004, 4:28 PM
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Guys, guys, guys, guys, everyone in here... chill out a bit.
I felt really strongly about this whole thing, but now I feel differently. I honestly still hold my ground, but I have seen the other sides point of view and wont post directions out of respect for them. I am not trying to make it sound like I am doing them a favor or anything, because I dont feel that way. Like I said, I definetly disagree here but see what you guys mean and I think we should just leave this at a disagreement. I can do that. I totally regret starting this thread. I should have known better. I hereby apologize to everyone for this as it has gotten a little out of control here and I think it is starting to make enemies. Lets let it go. I did not intend to have one half of the state hating the other half here. I am not going to be posting directions to hunters.
To my own disbelief however, I am really starting to agree with Jim on the Bellefonte issue. I mean, no climbers = no voices and voices is what that place needs. I think we may actually be on to something with advertising the quarry and telling more people to go there.
A serious few questions though. I would prefer if Bowers answered these as I would trust he knows more than anyone else in here about the quarry.
I thought the PS Sub Shop had cars towed?
Actual parking situation/access at the col de sac at the end of the street near the little league field.
What about parking at the little league field?
I ask these because we cant have directions without a place to park. Directions have to lead you somewhere, and the two places that I know of cant possibly hold more than 4 cars. If the Sub Shop for instance only let a few cars stay there unoficially, and would be pissed if it got out of control... we could never give directions to it, or even list it. We would have to PLAN on a semi worst case scenario. This is what we would need to have figured out before anything was made public.
To clear something up by the way. Hunters isnt on Games Lands as was said. It lies in Rocky Ridge Natural Area. Well, most of it does anyway. There are game lands directly bordering it however.
Ok now a question to anyone who knows:
Really what the hell is the deal with Bear Rocks. In the park? Outta the park? Near the park? Half in half out? Part in most out? Most in part out?
We cant seem to agree on this at all. Rob? Jim?
Peace dudes.
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fleamodee
Jul 21, 2004, 4:57 PM
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Bear rocks is on private land, you can see the posted signs as you walk in and people have talked to the land owner. Now rob may be talking about some place else due to the directions he gave would cause someone to walk/drive around black mo. for hours trying to find the boulders, even knowing exactly where the place is I still get lost sometimes it's super stealth access to the place. Anyway I agree this thing is absurd, although when false statements are made someone needs to respond with the correct info.
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synrock
Jul 21, 2004, 6:50 PM
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Jess - Just stop making crap up in your head.
I deal with information.
Case in point. Last incident I heard about involving cops at bellefonte - my friend mike f was at the parking area when a cop pulled up. he ask mike (who was standing there with a pack and rope) "you aren't going into that quarry are you?" - "why no officer" and then the guy winked and drove off.
We've talked to the cops - they really are symphathetic but officially they have to say no.
We've talked to the owners - they are symphathetic but officially they have to say no.
And why do you come up with this crap that I advocate climbing at bellefonte because I wrote a guidebook for there 15 years ago? Go ahead and try and buy one of those guidebooks. You'll have a long wait.
I don't make money on them.
As for hunters, I rarely climb there these days and never on weekends or if lots of people are there. You are assuming I climb there alot. Not basing that on observation. In fact, you havn't based any of the things you have been saying on information and observation.
Get out of your own head son. You are still young and you have a chance to put lots of stuff in there - but not if you think you know everything.
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synrock
Jul 21, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: Jim, The stuff in Elk SF. I had been to the stuff off the hiking trail years ago. You know the trail with the nice rock passage that splits it. I dont see why people like it so much. The stuff near the Barillium Oside is not much better either. I guess people like it though. If your interested I know of a spot identical to Hunters Rock. Its a Hunters sister area near Elk State Forest. (Not too far outside the park that is. Its not actually in Elk state Forest). It has bolted sport lines, and tons of boulders. ~Rob :D
Hunters occurs in the ridgely member of the old port formation. This is the stuff that is the prime fined grained sandstone like fontainbleu hp-40 or so ill.
We've scoped the entire formation in the state. This has yielded
Hunters
power cut
the pinnacles near jackson corner
stone nation
chilcoat
huntingdon north
pulpit area
lewistown near the jewish cemetary
game lands south of hunters
the sweet pinnacles being destroyed north of mapleton
the 22 boulders
the boulders south of mapleton
And that's about it for that formation.
The stuff in elk is much younger and gritstone. It can't be anything like hunters.
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roclimb
Jul 23, 2004, 5:19 PM
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Jim,
If you are serious about doing something about the situation at Bellfonte, and it sounds like you are, then lets do it. Your are right about sending out the climbers voice but we actually have to talk to the owner or it will never happen. A rep for the access fund told me at an Access meeting last year at Wildware Outfitters that Belllfone was an issue they wanted to adress. He said he spoke with some local climbers (I think it was someone from the shop) and they said they did not want any involvement with Bellfonte.
It seems that you are ready for involvement now however.
Lets get together with the corporation and see what can be done.
If we sit here and muck around any longer on websites like we have been doing, the place will be filled in.
There are a lot of options we can discuss land trust, purchase, etc. What do you say? Lets work on doing something.
Send me a PM if you are interested. Perhaps we can scedule an access meeting with any groupes, local climbers etc.
Thanks
~Rob :D
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roclimb
Jul 23, 2004, 5:28 PM
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Fleamodee,
To answer your question about Bear Rocks. Look on a PA gazetteer. Find Wallace Creek near Black Moshannon SP. You can easily find the location of Bear from here if you have been there. You will also note the State Game Lands and the # parcel Bear Rocks is located in.
If you make the long walk in from Rattlesnake rd. Then you are walking on private property to get there. If you come in from Black Moshannon SP you are walking in through State Park land and then into state Game lands--the location of Bear Rocks.
People assume the rock is on private property because it is a shorter walk to go through private property to get there. The rock is in Game lands and can be accessed by walking through public lands. Mostly all of that land that is private the owners dont care if you are there anyway, or dont know either. The area is so remote the park does not even know you are in there.
~Rob :D
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synrock
Jul 24, 2004, 2:10 AM
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This is starting to get crazy.
Do you really think we haven't checked? Do you not think we don't wish it wern't so?
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