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cgranite
Sep 29, 2004, 4:08 AM
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I'm interested in long, beautiful, endurance routes for the SoCal area.
The Quality of the rock is important.
Primarily in the winter - early spring seasons.
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kalcario
Sep 29, 2004, 5:08 AM
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how long? you mean sport routes?
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bandycoot
Sep 29, 2004, 5:10 AM
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The Vampire is sustained up at Tahquitz. I've climbed up there in January if the weather is right. It should get a lot of sun in the afternoon but snow on the approach might be an issue. However, we are currently getting an amazingly little amount of rainfall this year in so cal (at least in San Diego).
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cgranite
Sep 30, 2004, 1:19 AM
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Sport or Trad.
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jt512
Sep 30, 2004, 1:24 AM
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In reply to: I'm interested in long, beautiful, endurance routes for the SoCal area. The Quality of the rock is important. Primarily in the winter - early spring seasons.
If you live in SoCal you might want to be a little more flexible wrt rock quality. There are a number of winter areas with good, long endurance routes, but the rock around here tends to be less than stellar.
-Jay
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kalcario
Sep 30, 2004, 5:02 AM
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*Sport or Trad.*
The term "endurance" usually refers to overhanging sport routes, as anything less than vert allows you to get most of your weight off your arms and de-pump.
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cgranite
Oct 1, 2004, 12:15 AM
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In reply to: *Sport or Trad.* The term "endurance" usually refers to overhanging sport routes, as anything less than vert allows you to get most of your weight off your arms and de-pump.
That's not completely true. Take the smooth polished granite for example: put a wandering splitter up vertically for 140 feet. That's enduro!
An endurance climb is simply a sustaining route that puts strain on your arms for the whole length of the route. Most trad routes are endurance intensive.
Kalcario-you have some nice pictures.
Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it?
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benpullin
Oct 1, 2004, 12:18 AM
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In reply to: Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it?
Sure, if you bring your skis and ice tools.
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 12:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it? Sure, if you bring your skis and ice tools.
The only endurance routes at Williamson are 5.13a and higher.
-Jay
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cgranite
Oct 1, 2004, 12:30 AM
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The reason I ask for the endurance is because I believe it will be fun to work on while rehabilitating completely from bouldering injuries. So that puts 5.13 out of the question for now, but thanks for that info.
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tim
Oct 1, 2004, 1:20 AM
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if you're not dissuaded by a long approach in snow, you could do some south-facing routes at the Needles during warm spells. there are some 11's and 12's that are plenty enduro, which ought to be fine if you catch them in full sun.
besides, the altitude and the hike will help make the outing 'enduro'. ;-)
if you have trouble finding a partner, I'll be happy to go, but I can't follow anything harder than 5.11b/c and I can't lead any harder than 5.10b/c.
Herb Laeger has a brainful of information on all sorts of crags in the southern Sierra that are fine in the winter. The long routes on Patterson Bluff for example. Too bad His Royal Eminence isn't on here, too busy climbing :-)
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feanor007
Oct 1, 2004, 1:51 AM
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this isn't socal, if your talking beautiful winter enduro routes, i got three words: Red River Gorge. Massive, overhanging, sustained sandstone. but thats kind a far from socal
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pbjosh
Oct 1, 2004, 1:59 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it? Sure, if you bring your skis and ice tools. The only endurance routes at Williamson are 5.13a and higher. -Jay
That's retarded. There are basically 2 routes at Williamson that are 13a or harder.
For a 10 or 11- climber, The Shaman is an endurance route. For someone who climbs 12-, World on Fire is something of an endurance issue. For that matter, there are scads of endurance routes that I can think of, at all grades.
And for that matter, Twist of Fate isn't terribly sustained from what I've heard?
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 3:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it? Sure, if you bring your skis and ice tools. The only endurance routes at Williamson are 5.13a and higher. -Jay That's retarded. There are basically 2 routes at Williamson that are 13a or harder. For a 10 or 11- climber, The Shaman is an endurance route.
First of all, the Shaman isn't long enough to be an endurance route. Secondly, how can a 5.11a route be an endurance route for a 5.10 climber? By definition, endurance means working well below your maximum level. Third, the Shaman has a distinct crux, and the remainder of the route is relatively easy. That doesn't describe an endurance route at all.
In reply to: For someone who climbs 12-, World on Fire is something of an endurance issue.
Same as above. A 12b/c route cannot be an endurance route for a 12a climber. Secondly, World on Fire has a bouldery start, followed by easier climbing to an extremely good rest before the crux, which is somewhat powerful and definitely technical, followed by easy slab climbing to the anchors. This is about as bad an example of an endurance route as I can think of.
In reply to: For that matter, there are scads of endurance routes that I can think of, at all grades.
That's odd, because I've climbed more routes there than you have, and I can't think of many endurance routes at all. Williamson routes tend to be characterized by technical cruxes, not by a lot of moves that are easy for the grade, but which add up to a pump, which is, essentially, the definition of an endurance route. In the winter, Echo Cliffs is the place to go for that kind of climbing, except the guy specified good rock.
-Jay
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climbsomething
Oct 1, 2004, 3:41 AM
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Gosh, Jay, you implying that Mushroom ain't an enduro-pig testpiece of breathtaking proportions?
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bishopclimber
Oct 1, 2004, 3:54 AM
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If you live in SoCal you might want to be a little more flexible wrt rock quality. There are a number of winter areas with good, long endurance routes, but the rock around here tends to be less than stellar.
-Jay
sure, if you only climb at Williamson or New Jack City
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 4:04 AM
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In reply to: Gosh, Jay, you implying that Mushroom ain't an enduro-pig testpiece of breathtaking proportions?
Only if you take very small breaths.
-Jay
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gnat
Oct 1, 2004, 4:08 AM
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In reply to: First of all, the Shaman isn't long enough to be an endurance route. Secondly, how can a 5.11a route be an endurance route for a 5.10 climber? By definition, endurance means working well below your maximum level.
"by definition" huh?
whose, your's?
there are plenty of easy 5.11 sport routes that have no moves harder than mid 5.10, but are rated harder than the technical crux, exactly because they are endurance routes.
but lets leave that aside for the time being and look at the other nonsense you wrote, shall we?
In reply to: For someone who climbs 12-, World on Fire is something of an endurance issue.
now this seems like a reasonable enough statement. but noooooo, jt5.2 has to find fault from up on mt. olympus:
In reply to: Same as above. A 12b/c route cannot be an endurance route for a 12a climber. Secondly, World on Fire has a bouldery start, followed by easier climbing to an extremely good rest before the crux, which is somewhat powerful and definitely technical, followed by easy slab climbing to the anchors. This is about as bad an example of an endurance route as I can think of.
now hold on there a minute little buddy. i though you said that endurance routes mean In reply to: "working well below your maximum level"
after all, if the bouldery start were followed by lots of really hard techincal moves, it couldn't be below one's maximum level, could it?
and world on fire does require endurance to climb, particularly because it has a powerful crux mid way up sustained (but easier climbing).
In reply to: For that matter, there are scads of endurance routes that I can think of, at all grades.
now it gets good. jt5.2 now attempts to lord "his" vastly superior experience over poor josh:
In reply to: That's odd, because I've climbed more routes there than you have, and I can't think of many endurance routes at all. blah, blah, blah, blah....
so what pearls of wisdom do we devine from mr.5.2?
if it ain't 5.13, it can't be an endurance route and by extension is hardly worth doing, talking about, etc.
but hold it! how does this fit into the In reply to: "working well below your maximum level" |
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 4:46 AM
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Gnat, I have no interest in participating in your pettiness. Endurance climbing requires moves that are individually not hard for you, and a lot of them, without rests. That's not my definition. That's what every climbing training book says, based on how 1000 exercise physiology texts define endurance. It's submaximal exercise in any sport, including climbing.
Wmson is not a good endurance crag because it's not characterized by routes that meet the above description. Carpe Garden (13a) might be an endurance route to a 14a climber. World on Fire is about as far from the description of an endurance route as I can imagine. If the original poster wants to train endurance, then Echo would be his best, where there is route after route of sustained climbing at any level of difficulty from 5.10d to 5.13 with repetitive moves up constant-angle rock. That's endurance climbing.
-Jay
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climbsomething
Oct 1, 2004, 5:29 AM
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Beware biting flies... who type in wee red letters *pushes glasses up nose and leans into monitor* :lol:
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tim
Oct 1, 2004, 6:56 AM
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So, like, this guy posts about 'long, beautiful endurance routes' and youse all start arguing about sport routes.
WTF?
I was totally serious about the south-facing routes at the Needles and about other areas in the southern Sierra. If he wants long and beautiful, a SoCal sport crag is not likely to cut it!
(edit: Looks like Aaron pointed out two strong counterexamples. I haven't been to either so I can't say. But I challenge you to find a more beautiful route than Romantic Warrior at a sport crag in SoCal :-) ... so on that count at least, I will stick to my guns ;-) )
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roughster
Oct 1, 2004, 6:58 AM
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Bah, the elitism gets so old. Jay you need to step up your climbing considering all the elitist drivel that comes from your typing. A mid-5.12 climber is a dime dozen, get over yourself, and that comes from someone who has climbed as hard or harder than you. Quit relying on "training books" to do your thinking for you.
If you want endurance sport routes there are two areas specifically to hit:
#1- Frustration Creek. You will be hard pressed to find any sport climbing resource in SoCal that can compare when it comes to endurance routes.
#2- *Currently Developing Crag*. Most people know what I am talking about but I won't be the one to spill the beans. This crag will replace Frustration as the premiere monster length sport route area in SoCal as soon as it is rolled out.
People quit feeding the troll, and I don't mean the orginal poster. From reasding what in essence boils down to the same posts with the same attitude, you can only assume at this point Jay does it for the trolling aspect more than anything else.
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pbjosh
Oct 1, 2004, 7:10 AM
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I'm sorry, Jay, that there aren't enough routes that meet your exact requirements of ratio of hard to easy moves and difficulty of cruxes and lack of rests, etc, to be "endurance routes"
That having been said there are a fair number of long routes at Williamson that are reasonably steep that have cruxes that aren't terribly hard for the grade and that are pretty pumpy. But I guess we won't call them endurance routes.
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pbjosh
Oct 1, 2004, 7:13 AM
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In reply to: #2- *Currently Developing Crag*. Most people know what I am talking about but I won't be the one to spill the beans. This crag will replace Frustration as the premiere monster length sport route area in SoCal as soon as it is rolled out.
But don't you know that those routes are littered with good holds and rests and are therefore definitely NOT endurance routes? I know that the 150 feet of Rocky didn't give me a workout, that's for sure. Heh...
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benpullin
Oct 1, 2004, 7:38 AM
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When I think of an endurance route, I think of a route with sustained moves of the same relative difficulty with one or two 'harder' moves. Thus, the workout becomes a matter of simply hanging on rather than being able to do a hard move.
That being said, I would have to agree that there really aren't many endurance routes at Williamson. Generally, most of the routes there have a very technical/powerful/balancey crux, a section of easy climbing, and a section of harder climbing. I believe that Carpe Diem is as close to an endurance route as you'll get at Willi.
I haven't, however, been on Carpe Garden, but I've heard much harder climbers than myself refer to the route as a true endurance training route.
When I think of So Cal enduro routes, I think of Echo. But, I haven't been to the *crag under construction* nor Frustration Creek.
... my 2 cents.
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gnat
Oct 1, 2004, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: That's what every climbing training book says, based on how 1000 exercise physiology texts define endurance.
1000?? are you sure it isn't 987??
maybe you could append a list for us.
[this should keep him busy for a few days, giving us a well deserved respite from all his "wit" and "wisdom."]
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: That having been said there are a fair number of long routes at Williamson that are reasonably steep that have cruxes that aren't terribly hard for the grade and that are pretty pumpy. But I guess we won't call them endurance routes.
So you say, but you have yet to name one. Your examples:
1. The Shaman 5.11a. A short route with a distinct 5.11a crux.
2. World on Fire 5.12b/c. At least it's long enough to be endurance route, but it still isn't. It has two cruxes. I'd say the first is 12a, the second 12b. There's an extremely good rest between the cruxes. Gnat was correct that for a route to be an endurance route, the difficulty of the route must be substantially greater than the difficulty of the hardest moves. Neither of the routes you have named meet this criterion -- not even close. In other words, the crux of an endurance route is endurance -- that's why they're called endurance routes.
Now, if you know of some routes at Wmson that really are endurance routes, by the criteria used by Horst, Goddard, and anybody whose ever rated a route 5.12 when none of the moves are harder than 5.11a, then please post a list of them. I'd love to hear about them so I can work my endurance to be in shape for Echo Cliffs this winter. On the other hand, if you can't come up with any, then please concede the point.
-Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: That having been said there are a fair number of long routes at Williamson that are reasonably steep that have cruxes that aren't terribly hard for the grade and that are pretty pumpy. But I guess we won't call them endurance routes.
So you say, but you have yet to name one. Your examples:
1. The Shaman 5.11a. A short route with a distinct 5.11a crux.
2. World on Fire 5.12b/c. At least it's long enough to be endurance route, but it still isn't. It has two cruxes. I'd say the first is 12a, the second 12b. There's an extremely good rest between the cruxes. Gnat was correct that for a route to be an endurance route, the difficulty of the route must be substantially greater than the difficulty of the hardest moves. Neither of the routes you have named meet this criterion -- not even close. In other words, the crux of an endurance route is endurance -- that's why they're called endurance routes.
Now, if you know of some routes at Wmson that really are endurance routes, by the criteria used by Horst, Goddard, and anybody whose ever rated a route 5.12 when none of the moves are harder than 5.11a, then please post a list of them. I'd love to hear about them so I can work my endurance to be in shape for Echo Cliffs this winter. On the other hand, if you can't come up with any, then please concede the point that Williamson is not an endurance crag.
-Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: When I think of So Cal enduro routes, I think of Echo. But, I haven't been to the *crag under construction* nor Frustration Creek.
I hope to check out the "crag under construction" (CUC) some time soon. Some months ago I asked a CUC local if the routes were "endurance routes," and his answer was "not really, there are rests all over the place," which is what Josh says, above, though I can't tell if he's joking. The guy I talked to is a pretty solid 5.13 climber, so what is a "rest" to him might not be for most of us.
-Jay
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oldskool
Oct 1, 2004, 10:56 PM
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hahaha....jay is cool, dont mess, ruffster! go work tha shit out of a five twelve or whatever your projectin these days. anyways.
hey, too the original poster:
go to frustration creek. looey anderson totally redpointed a route there, with all natural and organic holds, and he totally did it first, and it is totally rad and five fourteen! my rad friend, cristina lindner, got the SECOND ascent, after looey!
and for real endurance fun, get into biking or running, climbing is for powrful mo fo's like jay and ruffster, they are crushers!! i heard they can do five or seven pullups, consecutively!
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fluxus
Oct 1, 2004, 11:49 PM
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I empathize with the search for good endurance routes in socal. They are difficult to find. I understand that the quarry is a good place for this but have not been there yet. For endurance training in socal I find that upclimbing and downclimbing routes of the apropreate grade is the best one can do. Using up climbing and down climbing Malibu can be an o.k. place to do endurance, For example the 5.10's in the middle of the power wall have pretty consistent movement and are easy to lap on. Just don't try it on a weekend because several routes share a common anchor. Johnny can't lead is a very consistent route but your endurance level will need to be pretty high to do enduro on it.
Gyms are often great places to train endurance via traversing or doing a lot of lead routes back to back / lapping.
I'm not sure why everyone is giving Jay such a hard time. He is right about willimson, the routes there tend have distinct cruxes and the climbing before and after the crux is often not consistent at all. A route like the shaman is by no means an endurance route unless you are climbing 5.12+ or so and up climb and down climb it a number of times without stopping and without getting pumped.
remember folks endurance means that the muscles in question are getting most of their energy from the aerobic energy system, that the blood pressure in the muscles is raised, and that the activity lasts long enough to have an effect, in climbing this is about 20min+. Of course, in climbing we are most concerned with the flexors of the fingers and wrists since it is these muscles that reach their aerobic limit so quickly. This being the case general endurance activities such as running don't help much and heart rate is no guide as to the effectivness of the training.
the overall volume of activity also helps build endurance.
if you ever want to go out for an endurance day send me a PM and we will hook up!
peace
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pbjosh
Oct 2, 2004, 1:38 AM
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I really don't care what the technical definition of an endurance route is. I also have better things to do than get into a 9 page nitpick.
I can get a great pump at Williamson and I'll leave it at that.
In the end cgranite is more or less a troll who likes to ask a different spray-question every few weeks...
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fluxus
Oct 2, 2004, 4:14 AM
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In reply to: I really don't care what the technical definition of an endurance route is. I also have better things to do than get into a 9 page nitpick. I can get a great pump at Williamson and I'll leave it at that.
and as long as you don't confuse getting a great pump with endurance then all is well.
peace
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gnat
Oct 3, 2004, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: If Big Moe were bolted, I don't think it would be much harder to lead than to TR. Big Moe only has one hard move, which is height dependent -- coming out of the scoop. You get good rests in the horizontals, and above that, it's an endurance run to the top [emphasis].
please explain how big mo (a 45 foot climb) can be an "endurance run" even though it has a distinct "one hard move" crux (and good rests), but the shamen or world on fire (and anything short of 5.13) at williamson doesn't qualify.
in the same thread quoted above it was mentioned that hellraiser (12c) was hard solely because it was continuous and pumpy though it had no moves harder than hard 5.11. though hellraiser isn't 5.13, is it an endurance route?
i'm so confused. maybe you could direct me to a couple dozen of those 1000 reference books to help clear this up.
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kellymoe
Oct 3, 2004, 4:36 PM
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Don't matter what your level of climbing is, you can build endurance just by changing the way you climb even if it is a route you have done a hundred times. Either don't use rests that you normaly would or hang out on some that that you would normaly blow through to get a good burn going. Doesn't matter if it is Wmson, New Jack or Stoney Point. This thread has gotten stoopid.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. It don't matter who wins your still retarded.
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jt512
Oct 4, 2004, 3:02 PM
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In reply to: I really don't care what the technical definition of an endurance route is. I also have better things to do than get into a 9 page nitpick. I can get a great pump at Williamson and I'll leave it at that.
Josh, you can get a great pump doing sets of barbell curls in the gym, but that doesn't mean you are building endurance.
-Jay
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cgranite
Oct 4, 2004, 6:39 PM
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In reply to: I really don't care what the technical definition of an endurance route is. I also have better things to do than get into a 9 page nitpick. I can get a great pump at Williamson and I'll leave it at that. In the end cgranite is more or less a troll who likes to ask a different spray-question every few weeks...
What the Heck is that about?!!!
I'm asking a question you hater. Obviously this is a great question because the only decent place that has popped up seems to be a secret.
If I want to ask where to go for something, I want to do so without having a person like you messing up the thread. THIS SITE IS FOR GATHERING INFO!!! Sometimes it's ok to poke fun, but my post is legitimate and I do not deserve your BS. You’re coming off strongly as a person who lives on this site and needs to be critical of everyone.
GO GET SOME FRESH AIR AND LEAVE THE POSTING TO PEOPLE THAT ARE HELPFUL AND POSSITIVE.
Besides that garbage, I am interested in the place that's under construction and that Frustration creek. I figure, since I won't be able to climb hard and get my thrills that way, then I might as well do so aesthetically by getting way up in the air. Oh ya...and getting a lethal pump while I'm at it.
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pbjosh
Oct 4, 2004, 6:49 PM
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All I've noticed is that you keep asking for different types of hard routes, seems a little spray-esque but whatever, no harm intended on my part.
If you want to get to Frustration or The Quarry, I can provide a good tour of Frustration and an intro tour to The Quarry. At The Quarry I know maybe a dozen of the more classic routes but someone like socalbolter (who is doing a lot of the route development there) is much, much more qualified to give a tour there...
josh
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