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irockclimbtoo
Jan 11, 2005, 10:06 PM
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t-dog
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Jan 11, 2005, 10:23 PM
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depends if you're doing a multipitch or not. Also depends on if you belay straight off the anchor or not. And on your preferred biner setup for the main power-point (locker/2locker/2oval/3oval). And on how many pieces are in your anchor and if you clip them with lockers or not.
So once you've come up with all those answers, you could need anywhere from 10 lockers to none. Is that vague enough? :D
Personally I've found that keeping 4 (+/- 1) lockers on each cordelette I never run out, but to each his own, and whatever makes you feel safer.
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petsfed
Jan 12, 2005, 1:02 PM
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4
Same with my partner. We've never run out.
I do carry about 6 non-locking crabs that get used all the time though. I never have enough of those.
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forkliftdaddy
Jan 12, 2005, 11:40 PM
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Single pitch I carry 2. One for my bealy device, one for the anchor. The second had better show up with their own. I clip myself into a non-locker, maybe two.
Multipitch I carry 3. One for each station, one for my device.
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tchamber
Jan 13, 2005, 12:19 AM
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you're one ballsy man forkliftdaddy.
I like lockers on all my anchor pieces plus 2 for the powerpoint. This equates to 6 lockers per anchor (3 pieces, 1 opposing piece, 2 for power point). For multipitch, this means 12 lockers. A bit excessive? Probably, but I like every little security I can get 500ft off the deck.
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eyecannon
Jan 13, 2005, 12:26 AM
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8 is plenty, I carry 6.
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harihari
Jan 13, 2005, 4:36 AM
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I bring 4-- one to tie into the belay, two for my reverso and one for emergency/extra. Since at a belay you are watching things, you don't really need tons of lockers, plus, you can always use bieners from gear/slings/draws and set up opposed reversed gates. I like to carry as little gear as possible, so my aim is to make everything do double-duty.
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vegastradguy
Jan 13, 2005, 4:52 AM
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i carry one for each anchor (powerpoint), one for my belay device, and then if i'm carrying screamers, i carry them equipped with lockers on both sides. so, i guess i carry between three and seven lockers.
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jt512
Jan 13, 2005, 4:55 AM
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In reply to: i carry one for each anchor (powerpoint), one for my belay device, and then if i'm carrying screamers, i carry them equipped with lockers on both sides. so, i guess i carry between three and seven lockers.
Why do you put lockers on your screamers?
-Jay
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johnnord
Jan 13, 2005, 5:02 AM
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1 for the belay device. 1 for the cow's tail. 1 for the strong point. Think about using clovehitches on biners instead of lockers. In practice, I actually carry more, but I wonder if I've just a gear junkie.
John
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vegastradguy
Jan 13, 2005, 5:38 AM
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gate flutter mostly. i have no real strong data on this, other than my thought would be that a screamer deploying would rattle the carabiner enough to create significant gate flutter. i think an aid climber told me this once, but i cant swear by it.
also the fact that if i put a screamer on it, its probably a crucial enough piece that i want a locker on it too.
oh, and dont use clove hitches on non-lockers. they can pop out very easily, sometimes by simply pulling on one side of the rope in an unanticipated direction. always put a locker on something you're going to clove hitch to.
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johnnord
Jan 13, 2005, 6:55 AM
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In reply to: oh, and dont use clove hitches on non-lockers. they can pop out very easily, sometimes by simply pulling on one side of the rope in an unanticipated direction. always put a locker on something you're going to clove hitch to.
Let's talk about this. You come up to a two bolt anchor. Clip a non-locking biner to each. Take a runner and clove hitch each biner. Clove hitch a locker as a strong point. Tie in to the locker. Belay. Comments?
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vegastradguy
Jan 13, 2005, 7:05 AM
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not entirely sure it would pop with a runner. i've never used a clove hitch on a runner.
seen it pop with a rope. my partner looked at my clove hitch, checked to make sure my fig-8 backup was secure (we were on a large ledge). she reached over, grabbed one end of my clove hitch and pulled out and down; the rope rolled over the nose of the carabiner and the hitch popped right out of the carabiner. while the clove was not super snug, it wasnt loose, either. it was enough to make me not use clove hitches (with a rope) on non-lockers.
at any rate, with a two bolt belay, i come up, clip a non-locker on each, clip a 48" runner in, equalize, tie a knot (fig-8 or overhand), clip powerpoint- belay. this strikes me as faster than messing around with clove hitches, but i imagine that if you got efficient at that method, it would be fine. (assuming spectra runners will hold a clove hitch- do they?)
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johnnord
Jan 13, 2005, 7:16 AM
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In reply to: not entirely sure it would pop with a runner. i've never used a clove hitch on a runner. seen it pop with a rope. my partner looked at my clove hitch, checked to make sure my fig-8 backup was secure (we were on a large ledge). she reached over, grabbed one end of my clove hitch and pulled out and down; the rope rolled over the nose of the carabiner and the hitch popped right out of the carabiner. while the clove was not super snug, it wasnt loose, either. it was enough to make me not use clove hitches (with a rope) on non-lockers. at any rate, with a two bolt belay, i come up, clip a non-locker on each, clip a 48" runner in, equalize, tie a knot (fig-8 or overhand), clip powerpoint- belay. this strikes me as faster than messing around with clove hitches, but i imagine that if you got efficient at that method, it would be fine. (assuming spectra runners will hold a clove hitch- do they?)
An advantage of the clove over the knot is that it unties easier, and it's much faster, at least for me (gain at least a 10/th of a second!!!), and it's adjustable if you don't get it exactly right the first time.
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vegastradguy
Jan 13, 2005, 7:20 AM
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fair enough. i've seen the system used in different books, but i really never thought to use it because i dont think i could set it up fast enough.
of course, all my runners (except for a couple) are spectra, which...i honestly have no idea whether the clove would hold or not on....
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skinner
Jan 13, 2005, 7:46 AM
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In reply to: How many locking carabiners do you carry on your rack? Is 8 enough or should I get some more?
Personally I think it depends on what kind or climbing/route I am doing, how many people I am climbing with etc. etc. But I do think that carrying exactly what you need to set up anchors etc. and no more is a bad idea.
I really don't think there is a clear-cut definite *right* answer. But for the 70-100 grams they weigh.. I would rather have too many then not enough, especially if you get into an ugly situation, or have to lower someone off who is injured or perform a self rescue, or help someone else who has gotten into trouble. (had to do this twice now).
How many do I carry? I always have 8-10 on me, a few will stay on my harness instead of on the rack, so when we alternate leads, I have some with me in case I have to modify an anchor, lower the leader, or worse yet, bring him up if he has gone for the "Grande hoopla" done a fly-by.
I am getting long winded here.. sorry, but go crazy, go on a Biner Binge!!! Buying hardware is always fun, and when you have so much that you can no longer carry it, you can always take up aid, get yourself some big-assed haul bags and some pulleys..:lol:
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healyje
Jan 13, 2005, 9:26 AM
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4-10 ??? Wow, you guys really carry a ton of lockers!!!
I never carry more than 2 (1 belay, 1 daisy) unless I'm dragging a second rope and then it's 3. I can't even imagine taking more unless I'm aiding, hauling, and/or doing a bivy...
Been a pretty happy and steady state formula for 30 years now and I've never seen any good reason to take more...
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skinner
Jan 13, 2005, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: Been a pretty happy and steady state formula for 30 years now
30 years? You know I have some 30+ year old biners that sit on my fireplace, and even the non=locking ones weight about a pound and a half.. between that and the soft iron pitons, it's no wonder people only carried half a dozen items on their rack!
just curious irockclimbtoo, how old you were when you started climbing?
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kaylinr
Jan 13, 2005, 4:29 PM
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You could replace your current lockers with a few of these bad boys:
http://trango.com/prod.php?id=112
Pretty light for a locker :twisted:
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jt512
Jan 13, 2005, 5:46 PM
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In reply to: I really don't think there is a clear-cut definite *right* answer. But for the 70-100 grams they weigh.. I would rather have too many then not enough, especially if you get into an ugly situation, or have to lower someone off who is injured or perform a self rescue, or help someone else who has gotten into trouble. (had to do this twice now)....
Are you aware that for most applications, two reversed and opposed non-locking biners are at least as good as one locker?
-Jay
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jt512
Jan 13, 2005, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: not entirely sure it would pop with a runner. i've never used a clove hitch on a runner. seen it pop with a rope. my partner looked at my clove hitch, checked to make sure my fig-8 backup was secure (we were on a large ledge). she reached over, grabbed one end of my clove hitch and pulled out and down; the rope rolled over the nose of the carabiner and the hitch popped right out of the carabiner. while the clove was not super snug, it wasnt loose, either. it was enough to make me not use clove hitches (with a rope) on non-lockers. at any rate, with a two bolt belay, i come up, clip a non-locker on each, clip a 48" runner in, equalize, tie a knot (fig-8 or overhand), clip powerpoint- belay. this strikes me as faster than messing around with clove hitches, but i imagine that if you got efficient at that method, it would be fine. (assuming spectra runners will hold a clove hitch- do they?) I'm really old, so I don't have Spectra runners, but that's a good question. Any answers out there? An advantage of the clove over the knot is that it unties easier, and it's much faster, at least for me (gain at least a 10/th of a second!!!), and it's adjustable if you don't get it exactly right the first time.
Yes, spectra runners will hold clove hitches, though I haven't tried it with the new super-skinny spectra runners.
-Jay
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eyecannon
Jan 13, 2005, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: You could replace your current lockers with a few of these bad boys: http://trango.com/prod.php?id=112 Pretty light for a locker :twisted:
Those are the ones I carry! They are tiny, light, and strong.
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healyje
Jan 13, 2005, 11:09 PM
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In reply to: The truth is you could probably get away without using any at all.. probably.
We didn't use lockers for years. Back then we were doing hard multi-pitch routes tied into the end of the rope w/ a bowline-on-a-bight harness, used clove hitches on anchors, did hip belays with one directional non-locking biner with the gate up and in for the rope coming from the climber. We caught hundreds of falls this way, and many big falls...all with nary a problem or even a thought about it.
In reply to: They are sort of like seat belts,.. chances are you will make it to I just never want to have to *wish*, "If only I had used a locker" :cry:
To be honest, never in the entire 30 years have I ever "wished" I had another locker or been in a situation I couldn't make completely safe without one...
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healyje
Jan 13, 2005, 11:20 PM
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In reply to: gate flutter mostly. i have no real strong data on this, other than my thought would be that a screamer deploying would rattle the carabiner enough to create significant gate flutter. i think an aid climber told me this once, but i cant swear by it. also the fact that if i put a screamer on it, its probably a crucial enough piece that i want a locker on it too.
This was more from the days when they were bar tacked instead of straight stitched. Even then we went through lots of them blowing 20 tacks at a time without ever seeing the phenom, though it was well documented at the time across several biner makes...
In reply to: oh, and dont use clove hitches on non-lockers. they can pop out very easily, sometimes by simply pulling on one side of the rope in an unanticipated direction. always put a locker on something you're going to clove hitch to.
Not a bad idea, but I think you just need to be aware of the possibility and really tighten/dress out your clove hitches when using non-locking biners.
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dirtineye
Jan 14, 2005, 7:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I really don't think there is a clear-cut definite *right* answer. But for the 70-100 grams they weigh.. I would rather have too many then not enough, especially if you get into an ugly situation, or have to lower someone off who is injured or perform a self rescue, or help someone else who has gotten into trouble. (had to do this twice now).... Are you aware that for most applications, two reversed and opposed non-locking biners are at least as good as one locker? -Jay
There is actually a good argument for the two being better than the one in many applications.
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chriss
Jan 16, 2005, 7:16 PM
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I usually only carry 1 or 2 undedicated lockers. Meaning not the one that always stays with my belay device. These are lockers for anchors or whatever. I don't have a problem with nonlockers used in anchors, or a clovehitch, or 2 nonlockers opposed.
I do have a problem with 2 lockers opposed and I've seen alot of this happening. Alot of the newer lockers are symetrical and the locking screws interfere with the biners laying flat against each other. This creates a great deal of stress in unintended areas on the biners when they are loaded. Take a minute to look at this. If the biners lie flat against one another with no raised areas to bend over, they should be OK. If not do not use them this way.
chris
chris
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mattm
Jan 20, 2005, 12:45 AM
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Comments on above...
-"I use up to or more than 6 lockers in my anchor."
-"Only use lockers when using the clove hitch because it can "flip"
- "lockers on screamers are a good idea"
Blanket statement: You can ALWAYS make yourself more safe by using lockers - heck, you could carry nothing but lockers if you want. Practicality comes into play here and with it, a decision about how many lockers you deem excessive. I'm stating my personal opinion on what I deem reasonable. Add more lockers if you wish...
6 lockers in an anchor is mega super overkill. Since you'll be pre-loading the placements the likely hood that you'll unclip any of the pieces let alone all three is extremely low. using lockers at the power point is a good idea especially if you're belaying directly off the power-point.
The clove hitch with lockers only also seems very limiting and sounds like poor tying of the hitch. I know that when you tie a clove hitch and begin to tighten it down it can "roll" up into the gate area. This is why its important to cinch each clove hitch into the proper configuration before finishing your anchor. Remember - a HITCH requires weight (in this case you tightening it) to remain intact. a KNOT remains intact regardless of load or "cinching". A typical 3 piece anchor I use all the time in vertical cracks out west is to place three pieces in a row and clove hitch the rope from my harness into all three (non lockers on the pieces) adjusting and cinching the cloves as need for equalization. Fast, simple and you've used NO extra biners other than those on the pieces. 6 lockers to none is nice. Again, YMMV.
I completely agree with vegastradguy on using lockers on some of my screamers - the "gate vibe" issue it there but more importantly, if you're using a screamer, that piece has a good chance of being mission critical and thus a locker is a good idea. Lockers aren't essential though. Sometimes if the placement is mission critical (like the bolt protecting the crux move on P1 of The Last Unicorn @ Whitehorse) I'll throw an extra draw on the bolt (or whatever) so that the gates are opposed. Bam! extra safe.
My typical setup? 1 locker for my belay device (DMM Belay master). 2 lockers for various anchor setups (I like the BD positron lockers because they're light and have a narrow nose that fits well in chain links if needed) 1 Petzl Attache - typically this carries misc gear like belay gloves of prussik loops or shoes. It's there if I need to use the munter or do some rescue stuff. So grand total = 4. Screamers might add 2 more to the load but that varies climb to climb.
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