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sportgirl
Aug 27, 2002, 9:37 PM
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I heard a first-hand story from a neighbor the other day that really frightened me for her. She was climbing locally, (she is a beginner) and was with a friend climbing. She was on a top-rope and on a take, so of course her full body weight was on the rope. She threw her sunglasses down because she didn't want to keep climbing with them on. So, the belayer went to catch them! And of course, took his hand off of the brake hand and she went flying down the rock and decked. She was lucky and only has a broken pelvis!But as I talked with her it seemed as if she was making excuses for her belayer - and saying that it was instinct to go after the sunglasses. I totally disagree! The first thing you learn HOPEFULLY when you climb is to NEVER NEVER take your brake hand off the rope. For me, this changed my instincts - I stand there and have hail, rock, sunglasses, whatever hit me before I take that hand off. Say bye bye to your expensive sunglasses. It has to be that way, or you shouldn't be climbing. I think I can safely say that my instincts have changed and probably changed the day I learned that it would be death for the climber if the belayer ever takes that brake hand off....what about you?
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estwing
Aug 27, 2002, 10:04 PM
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I was at the climbing gym yesterday evening getting ready to do a route on the lead wall. I had been watching a guy climb a new 5.9 sandbag which he finished. A second latter I hear the sound of rope flying through a belay device and then thud. His belayer was shaking her hand as though it was burnt, and the climber was sitting on the ground. My friend said he had fallen 20".
My first thought was that the belayer was using a gri-gri and had pulled the lever to far and let the rope smoke through her hand. This was not the case, she had just borrowed a reverso, and somehow managed to let go of the brake rope. I don't know how it happened, but it goes to show that belaying a leader is not the time to try new things.
The climber was fine, thank goodness for a few inches of gravel.
Scared me pretty well.
Sam
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ctrlaltdel
Aug 27, 2002, 10:33 PM
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What was the girl doing throwing down her sun glasses in the first place? All the climbers I know make every effort not to accidently drop gear, this is the first time I've heard of a climber intentionally tossing gear. I suggest clipping sun glasses on the back of your shirt, as long as your not doing an overhang, chimmey, or get flipped inverted it shouldn't get scratched or fall out. Best practice is to not have loose objects that can be dropped, hit your belayer on the head, which knocks them out, and you fall to your death.
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mountainmonkey
Aug 27, 2002, 10:42 PM
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The GriGri is not a fix-all like many people think it is. I have witnessed climbers being dropped while using it and it was even set up properly. It angers me when people think that the grigri will make it impossible to drop a climber. It happens because the people rely totally on the breaking mechanism, and they never even consider the break hand. (dont get me wrong though, i think the device is great for certain situations)
I have always treated my breakhand like sportgirl - the breakhand never moves from the break end of the rope - no matter what is going on. I am one of those believers that when you say "On Belay" you are saying that you will do all that you can to keep the person safe.
All types of climbing are serious with serious consequences. It is nice to see people learning from the mistakes of others.
casey
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jman
Aug 27, 2002, 11:04 PM
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I hope newbies read this post and get in drilled into their heads that they should never let go of the break rope.
The other week I saw a guy in the gym deck out from probably around 35 feet or so on TR. The belayer seemed new to climbing and was using an ATC. When the climber missed a hold and loaded the rope the belayer did not have their hand in a break position and the rope fed right through the ATC. Climber decked and belayer had a good rope burn. The rope burn probably kept the climber from being seriously hurt cause he came back to the gym the next night to let all know he was okay.
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mountainmonkey
Aug 28, 2002, 3:45 PM
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I never blamed anything on the grigri. I was only stating that the grigri is not a substitute for good belaying skills and a knowledge of how the grigri works. If you use it like an ATC it wont fail and the autolocking mechanism is just a backup.
"i did not say it was a cure all i tjust reduces the chances of the belayer makin a mistake"
I guess I feel that the a belayer could make a mistake with any device including the grigri, but even more so with the grigri if the belayer thinks the grigri will catch the climber no matter what the belayer does. Operator error - YES - that is exactly what I am saying.
"I don't know what happened. The grigri just didn't lock up." - quote from an anonymous belayer after dropping her climber in the gym
casey
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interruptor
Aug 28, 2002, 4:34 PM
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I threw my sunglasses several times back to my belayer. I many time start climbing with them but at the midlle I get the impression that they are anoying me more then helping, so I just tell him to catch them (wich he does with his other hand) or i just try to hit something "soft", like a bush, a bagpack or a boulder. Throwing down my stupid sunglasses has nothing to do with droping gear! Try getting hit by a pair of sunglasses (at least a lite pair like mine droped from a high place, and compare it with a figure eight or a biner droped from just above your head! besides, if the eight hits a rocky floor it will bounce (besides making a huge bell sound), as I've seen happening...
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thejm
Aug 28, 2002, 5:03 PM
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I think that both made some mistakes here:
The belayer, of course, for taking off his hand from the brake, but also, the girl, for throwing her sunglasses to the belayer.
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grigriese
Aug 28, 2002, 5:06 PM
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I let very few people belay me with a grigri on sport routes when I'm on lead. So many people have the habit of holding the camming device down so they can feed out rope (never removing it) - never have a hand on the brake side of the rope and are eating fig newton's, scratching their dogs ear watching some other climber on another route, etc. We can try to blame blame blame but I don't let anyone belay me that I haven't watched -whether with a grigri or an belay device - to make sure they know what they are doing. I've heard way too many horror stories and as much as climbing is an inherently dangerous sport I say why push your odds over the edge. I've had many "discussions" about grigri's before. Don't expect it to catch - keep your hand on the brake side too! I'm not too paranoid though - I've let my boyfriend belay me with a munter hitch a couple of times.
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tradguy
Aug 28, 2002, 5:06 PM
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Fleadawg,
Gri gri's teach people bad habbits by allowing them to get away with stuff they otherwise couldn't. If you want to attribute all those instances of "accidents" to operator error, then EVERY belay device or method is perfect, and ALL accidents invovling a failed belay are the fault of operator error. Hell, by that logic, there would be no such thing as an "accident" in climbing - just poor judgement and human error. (example: If he would have been an educated geologist, he would have recognized the obvious signs of erosion and known the rock above was unstable, and that he would be crushed by falling rock if he climbed there - clearly, it's his own fault for making a bad decision.)
The gri gri is not the answer to our prayers. As a belay device, just like any other, it is no better than its operator, though as an active, mechanical device, I would argue that it's specific design has some deficiencies.
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carnaged
Aug 28, 2002, 5:40 PM
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Tradguy: I completely agree. grigri's are just a way of teaching the belayer bad habits. Personally i don't like grigri's at all. But they ARE nice and easy to slide the rope through. But it's not the point. I think that an ATC is just as good as the grigri, in fact, I'd rather belay with an ATC than a grigri.
For the belayer who dropped their climber while catching those sunglasses, I really hope he thinks twice about letting that brake hand off again. The second that climber leaves the ground and you say "on belay" that climber has to be able to trust you to have them ON BELAY at all times. Meaning DON'T TAKE YOUR BRAKE HAND OFF THE ROPE YOU MORON! If he were here in Kelowna, he would not be belaying EVER again, I stand corrected, I think that ANYWHERE, he wouldn't be belaying again.
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overlord
Aug 28, 2002, 5:57 PM
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i usualyy tell the begginers to imagine their brake hand glued to the brake side of the rope
CLIMB ON
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fitz
Aug 28, 2002, 5:59 PM
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"in every single gri gri accident....the case lies with operator error dat is dat...tell me one incident where a gri gri failed and was setup properly."
Fleadawg, that is just plain false. There is at least one case of device failure (the rivet). There have been two cases at a single sandstone crag (Devil's Punchbowl) of the cam failing to engage because of grit. You can claim operator error, but if the belayer tests that the device engages before you leave the ground, then severely burns both her hands trying to arrest your fall (I was there, she never let go and was more severely injured than her boyfriend, the climber), I'm not going to fault her for keeping her eyes on the climber instead of giving a 100% effort to keep the line from picking up grit.
But, if you aren't convinced, a couple months ago there was a fatality in Yosemite where the gri-gri was properly rigged (tested, after the fact, by a ranger) on a UIAA line of appropriate thickness (per Petzl manual). Again, one could argue that operator error was involved, but the fact remains that, even properly rigged gri-gri's sometimes fail to engage. I actually spoke with the ranger who examined the rope and device (a very qualified climber himself) and it turns out that we have both seen a fair number of no-engage siutations in the past. Further, if the cam malfunctions, the belayer gets very little mechanical advantage from the device. So little that, as at Devil's Punchbowl, otherwise qualified belayers may not be able to arrest a moderate lead fall.
If anything, this would seem to make a dilligent break hand just as important with a gri-gri - since, when needed, you get little help from the device, and, because the device is generally reliable, there is a natural tendancy for complacency.
I'm not saying that, properly used, a gri-gri isn't safe. I'm just saying that 100% just isn't so. Nothing is fool proof.
-jjf
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sportgirl
Aug 28, 2002, 6:49 PM
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Well, this girl's boyfriend was like,"yeah, we are going to get gri gris and helmets." I wanted to say, "yeah, try getting a new belayer - or a course for beginners - it wasn't the device that failed you!"
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mountainmonkey
Aug 28, 2002, 7:19 PM
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amen
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jt512
Aug 28, 2002, 7:29 PM
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Quote: I think that both made some mistakes here:
The belayer, of course, for taking off his hand from the brake, but also, the girl, for throwing her sunglasses to the belayer.
Oh, come on. I've had partners throw stuff -- shirts, sunglasses -- down to me before, and I've never let go with my brake hand to catch them.
-Jay
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dymondbak37
Aug 29, 2002, 4:58 AM
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reply to sportgirl bout them there sunglasses: DAMN STRAIGHT! tell her not to go with that person climbing until they learn that
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krustyklimber
Aug 29, 2002, 5:17 AM
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Gri-gri's don't drop people...
PEOPLE drop people!
Anyone ever use a back up knot and a little communication?
Jeff
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sportgirl
Aug 29, 2002, 3:00 PM
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Hey guys - I don't climb with her - just met her 'cause she is a neighbor 'round the corner. Personally, I either 1. don't climb with my sunglasses, or 2. Put a sunglass strap on them so that if I need to take them off, I can just wear them around the back of my neck...
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fitz
Aug 29, 2002, 7:00 PM
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Actually fleadawg, "fat whippers" and sport climbing are a little contradictory. That's the point. Hazards are greatly dimished so participants can focus on the physical/gymnastic aspect of the sport.
Take a 30 footer on a stopper off a wall of loose junk in freezing drizzle, stare a moment at the 600' drop below you, poke at the new gash in your leg, then climb back past your belayer and finish the sucker, and we'll talk about "whippers". Or, for that matter, masculinity and sexual orientation.
No one is saying that the gri gri is unsafe. It is a wonderful device. Among other things, it lets inexperienced folks do relatively benign forms of climbing fairly safely, even when they are pretty lax.
Some folks, including myself, are just saying that it is not perfect. A small number of folks die each year just goofing off at the crags. If a person wishes to maximize his/her chances of avoiding natural selection, they'll put less faith in the device, and more care in their selection of a partner.
-jjf
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xen_monkey
Aug 29, 2002, 8:07 PM
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If someone grops something down to me, I'll usually try to let it hit my foot, to give it a softer landing, I totally forget using my hands. I suck at catching. (maybe that's why the other kids wouldn't let me play baseball )
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coach
Aug 29, 2002, 8:24 PM
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Krusty,
Right on! A little communication between climber and belayer could have prevented this whole thing. All the climber had to say was "Look out for my sunglasses, just let them hit the ground" and no harm, no foul.
Anytime a climber is going to drop ANYTHING, talk to your belayer first. Let them know what it is and what to do. If it was something you wanted them to catch, they can lock you off first and then have you toss it to them.
Climb On
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jt512
Aug 29, 2002, 8:30 PM
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Quote:A little communication between climber and belayer could have prevented this whole thing.
A belayer who was not a complete idiot would have helped, too.
-Jay
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coach
Aug 29, 2002, 8:44 PM
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jt,
Absolutely! It didn't sound like there were rocket scientists on either end of the rope! Beginner on one end with idiot on the other, recipe for disaster.
Climb On
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burz
Aug 29, 2002, 9:04 PM
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Gri Gri's suck. They are the thing I hate most about going to the gym. With that said, I understand they can (reiterate can)be safer than an ATC which is my preferred belay device. Climbing requires the utmost attention to every detail. Why not start with paying attention to your belay device, ie. keeping your break hand on the rope. I've seen people at the crags using gri gri's to belay with and they don't pay attention. I've even seen them swinging around on the rope while belaying. This is a serious sport that requires focus. I just hope that as technology progresses it does not cause newbies to the sport to forget their focus.
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