I believe your question was, what motivates anyone who thinks badly of isreal and voices this?

My reply would be that I have no motivation. Simply that I look at the situation as i see it, weigh up my opinions of the various players, and call it as i see it.

In the current situation, I see various non-isreali* "terrorist" organisations doing things that I think are wrong, and I think they diserve anything they get. I also see isreal invading a soverign country, destroying innocent peoples homes, killing people, and ruining the surviovors lives and livelyhoods for years to come. And almost certianly not changing the underlying situation, other then killing the current crop of "terrorists" and possibly creating a lull, until more can be trained.

I feel very sorry for anyone in lebanon trying to raise heir children not to blindly hate. It must be hard.



*Used because i am f@#king sick of the words "islamic" and "muslim". Religion isn't the reason, or cause, it's an excuse.....

Lebanon, the truth!!!

By definition a sovereign country is responsible for the goings on within its borders. Yet for years Hizbollah has been attacking Israel accross the border and the lebanese government has down nothing to prevent it. Prevent it? HIZBOLLAH IS IN THERE GOVERNMENT.

Before Israel bombs an area it anounces by dropping flyers from the air and anouncing with magaphone that everyone should leave.

Overlord? We used the kidnapings as an excuse to kill lebanese and palistinians? You are one sick puppy.
Then again, that was my point, wasn't it.

and dont get me wrong, im not saying that hezbollah is either right or good, im jsut saying that IDF/israeli government is no better than them.

A Palestinian militant fires toward Israeli troops during an arrest raid in the West Bank village of Qabatiyeh near Jenin, Tuesday, Aug. 8, 2006.

Hizballah

hezbollah

Hizbollah

hozbollah

When possible Israel has even found the telephone numbers of buldings and told them to leave telephonicly.

Israel has a list, BY NAME, of terrorists it knows for sure have been killed. That list is now about three to four hundred long. Those are only the terrorists it knows by name that have been killed.

I find it very difficult to believe how either of these statements could be accurate.

I can understand that. As for the list of names. Believe it or not. The names were attained by intelegence in lebanon and the list has actually been printed onto the fliers that israel drops onto the lebanese areas (Hizbollah breeding grounds) to warn them to leave, so that they can have proof (many of the names are from those towns) of what is really going on (and what could happen should they decide to stay) despite what Nasrahla is telling them. The list exists and is growing and is no secret here. I could past you clips of Israeli News but its in hebrew text.

As for the phone call? I don't find it too hard to believe. It's not such a hard task. All the airforce and intellegence has to do after finding the physical address of a target is look in a phonebook. That they do it was admitted in hebrew by iether the minister of defense or the head of intellegense, I can't remember which. In my opinion it should have been said in English since it seems to be the outside world who suggests we do not do anough to avoid civilian casualties.

As for civilian casualties on the lebanese side. There are many! Once again if you excpect terrorists to be given immunity because they hide behind their peers then Congradulations! You have just given a skirt for terrorists to hide behind and an "I'm sorry but sh*t happens" to all of their victims. Well Done! Everything must be done to seperate terrorist from civilian. That is obvious. Before Israel bombs an area it anounces by dropping flyers from the air and anouncing with magaphone that everyone should leave. When possible Israel has even found the telephone numbers of buldings and told them to leave telephonicly. After that my friend, you can not complain.

And as for the numbers of casualties, Israel has a list, BY NAME, of terrorists it knows for sure have been killed. That list is now about three to four hundred long. Those are only the terrorists it knows by name that have been killed. You can assume the total amount of killed terrorists is about double that.

Overlord? We used the kidnapings as an excuse to kill lebanese and palistinians? You are one sick puppy.
Then again, that was my point, wasn't it.

To say that I'm indifferent is inaccurate. I truly believe that if the US hopes to force a solution this problem, then it needs to get all of the nations involved, the Egyptians, the Lebanese, the Jordanians, the Syrians to not allow terrorists to stay in their borders. Then we cut ties with Israel. Simple as that. Let the civil war exhaust itself and once that's finished, peace may reign. But I know why it won't happen, so I can no longer be upset when peace consistently fails to take hold.

The scary though for the day was that the current situation might spread, Israel wouldn't do well, and could go nuclear. Obviously I didn't express myself well. That being said, this IS an important issue and I have received some truly misinformed comments back.

I have NO sympathy for Hamas or Hezbollah. I think Israel going out of their way to recruit for them, however, is a bad idea. Holding the government of Lebanon responsible for Hezbollah, when Syria JUST withdrew their troops is ludicrous. It makes great rhetoric, but no sense. Doing things that strengthen the politics of Hamas right now (they WERE going down the tubes) is a bad idea. Doing things that increase support for Hezbollah is a bad idea.

If the government of Israel (religion has nothing to do with it, unless you are an Arab and convinced that all your problems are "The Jews" fault) pulled back to the boundaries they had been given initially, not what they expanded to via invasion, AND the U.N. would live up to it's written commitment to create a Palestinian state beside Israel (see the original U.N. resolution and documents) then there would be no issue that terrorists and Islamic fundamentalists could use to recruit/foment strife.. The entire issue (which everyone seems to forget) is based on Israel taking additional territory by force of arms, building settlements there (declared illegal by the World Court, that ruling supported by almost every country in the world except the U.S.), displacing the people who formerly lived there. Those people (described by some Arabs I know as "The trash of the Middle East, worse that then the Iraqi's", which is why no other country will take them in) are the Palestinians, often the same ones displaced when Israel was formed (again forcibly and without compensation).

That being said, this is NOT about facts and reason...this is about motivating an entire generation of terrorists. The terrorists leaders need recruits. They also need a target. Israel supplies both and an external enemy to keep the terrorists in power. Most of the terrorist leaders have NO real world skills or credentials. To keep prestige and power, they must have someone to fight. Israel is that someone. If you actually listen to the "fundamentalist Islamist" leaders (they are neither - most of what they do is prohibited in the Koran), their goal has grown - first, it was get rid of Israel, then it was make a Islamic empire Spain to Iraq, now some are saying they won't stop until the entire world is under Islamic rule. Doing things like killing lots of civilians in Lebanon without a clear and present danger" only makes the bad guys recruiting easier.

There is NO doubt that Hezbollah is a real live terrorist organization, supported by Syria (Sunni) AND Iran (Shiite, as bizarre as that is). They deserve to be SQUASHED LIKE A BUG.

The problem is not that Israel's OBJECTIVE is wrong - it isn't. However, their approach and timing are masterpieces of stupidity. Had there been a "clear and present danger" where they had non choice, that would be one thing. The FACT of these rockets is a danger, but they aren't new. However, Israel has given ZERO indication that the rockets were why they attacked Lebanon. This is advertised as being a response to a raid on a military position (so technically not even one of Hezbollah's "terrorist" attacks) and is killing civilians in droves (who were warned to get out, but like many in Louisiana, won't leave their homes, decided to trust in God, and died). Israel may be "right", but what they are accomplishing is driving moderate Muslims into the extremist camps and uniting the rest of the Middle East against them.

If Hezbollah had launched a long range missile - just one - Israel's actions would NOT be helping terrorist recruiters as much as what did happen. While there is NO question that everyone in the region wants Israel to GO AWAY, and going away dead is preferred, the fact is that peace WAS becoming possible. As Lebanon's government got stronger after dumping Syria's influence, as Hamas was busy destabilizing itself after winning the election, Israel invaded and destroyed a country. They have (1) destroyed any chance of a moderate government in Lebanon (2) united Hamas and Fatah (3) increased support for Hezbollah many fold. Israel had not once since this started indicated ANY "clear and present danger". 6 soldiers were killed and two kidnapped - long history of the same and it's well known that Israel WILL trade prisoners. Instead, Israel started a war, THEN Hezbollah started firing rockets.

Remember, there (at least) five sides:
(1) Hamas (Shiite Muslim terrorists elected to Palestine government),
(2) Non Hamas (more or less Fatah) Palestinians
(3) Hezbollah (Sunni Muslim terrorists elected to Lebanon government and supported by Sunni Syria)
(4) Lebanese not part of Hezbollah (many Christians) - most of whom will NOW support Hezbollah, regardless of their religion
(5) Israel

Until one has at least a sense for how these groups interact - see Iraq for how unrestrained Sunni's (Saddam) treat Shiites and vice versa (now) - it is IMPOSSIBLE to understand what is happening.

Further, remember that Hamas and Hezbollah were elected into their government in elections that the U.S. pushed for.

The total situation is, IMHO, hopeless of resolution and based on the response to Israel (be they right, wrong or somewhere in between) there will NOW be ZERO chance of peace in the next two generations. THAT is what scares me - if Israel feels like their survival is threatened, they might go to nucs. (That's what I said in the first Email)

I rather clearly labeled the Arab thinking as such, not my own - based on mass Emails that I am included in from my Arab friends - who were pro-US until a week ago. However, I don't have a great answer for them. The root cause of all this, remember, is that Israel keeps taking territory outside it's U.N. boundaries and building settlements on it, displacing Palestinians who have no place to go. It's another real issue as to whether or not the U.N. actually started this when they created Israel. The Palestinians were displaced but offered an homeland of their own, but that promise wasn't kept. Israel got theirs and then nothing else happened. My impression is that U.S./Britain/France assumed that Syria would take them in and they would"go away". Bad assumption.

Israel's current actions are right up there with the U.S. disbanding the Iraqi Army and sending it home (with weapons, but with NO money to support their families) - sounded like the right thing to do - you don't want to have an Army in the country you just conquered - but it spawned a big chunk of the insurgency. Israel will be reaping the bitter fruit of this work for the next 20 years at least, if they survive.

Understand that if Israel can accomplish any part of what they want (and my perception is that they haven't been doing well, although that may be changing), Israel, in the short term, WILL be safer - they will have gotten the current rockets out. However, Iran has LOTS more rockets and now the rest of Lebanon - the people who didn't support Hezbollah - may start at least tolerating Hezbollah, if not supporting them. Long term, I think they will have accomplished little except make their political situation worse by a factor of 10 or more. I HOPE I am wrong, but I point to my track record of predictions over the last few years.

Notice how frequently you hear the word "revenge" - these people, all 5 sides - LIVE for revenge. They make the Hatfields and the McCoys look like bosom buddies.

Now, my original comment was very simple - I am afraid that this could escalate, and if Israel feels that it's existence is threatened, some of their government being no more rational than the Islamic side, they could easily decide to use nucs. Israel is recruiting for their opponents, which makes this more likely to spread.

BTW, there IS one (sort of) positive piece, if you didn't notice, although I think it won't have any real effect. The fact that the long range missiles came from Iran clearly validated in everyone's minds that Iran is a threat (duh...) and the U.N. finally voted to head for sanctions.. However, of course, it won't do any good...just as in Iraq, the people will suffer, the leaders won't, so they don't care, and they will keep building their nuc weapons and we will have to deal with the (literal) fallout in not too many years. The longer we let Iran go, the worse it will be. EVERY DAY we wait to STOP (militarily) Iran, we increase the chance of a large radioactive cloud floating around the world. Israel's nucs should be clean - Iran's will NOT be.

I see no way out of the present situation. Palliation is to strengthen those who would oppose Iran and Syria (not worry about "spreading democracy" - which lost us the Iraq election, the Iran election and the Palestinian election), continue to support Israel (although I think they have gotten in over their head and at some point, we will be faced with either go to total war with them or drop them) and pray hard. The time when one could hope to make Israel move back inside it's legal borders was gone about a week or so ago, I fear. My base fear is that this IS the start of a world war - the U.S. and Israel against essentially all Muslim countries. Remember the population numbers and the relative regard for life. "QUANTITY" has a "QUALITY" all it's own (quote stolen, but don't from whom). It will not be pretty. The only problem is that "world war" right now is one we would lose without nucs. As long as we are oil dependent, we can't declare open war against all the oil producers without destroying our economy and, BTW, our ships, planes and tanks need fuel; without it, our "military might" becomes paperweights. (Note: The monarchy in Saudi is hanging on by it's teeth, in case you haven't noticed. Don't think that country will be on "our" side. We can't protect the oil production in Iraq now, much less in a war.) Don't kid yourself, things ARE going the wrong way. BTW, I don't think there IS a peaceful option anymore - I REALLY, REALLY hope I'm WRONG!

If the US cuts ties with Israel, they will be surrounded by Islamic nations that want Israel destroyed. Backed into a corner like that, they'd be much more likely to escalate the war and exercise the nuclear option.

Not good.