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carabiner96
Apr 23, 2008, 3:55 AM
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So, let's change this from a rant to a question to ponder: is two ropes unacceptable? When is it "OK"? Because...let's face it: Groups happen. I guess I just wish people would start with "Hey, how much longer are you going to be?" than "Yo, Imma lead this bitch, you cool? [sic]"
Was at Rumney this past weekend...Lord that place makes you strong fast! Such sticky rock, truly hero makers!
I was leading the trip, a group of newbies, and managing a group at Rumney is definitely not the easiest thing to do. As soon as people see that you're in a group larger than four, they hate you. Hard.
Then, they're constantly asking if they can pull your rope and hope on the route you JUST LED, so that they can "lead it, real quick" which always turns into them, their wife, and their mom cycling through, taking an hour out of time I could have had my whole group through and moved on.
This happened twice, and we were asked a couple more times, but by then I had finally grown balls to say NO-please be patient, we'll be done in a hlaf hour. We had only than two ropes going, three if we were alone. But as soon as people see the matching institutional helmets, the hating starts, even if we only had one route up.
I understand groups are hard to work with. I understand that you want to climb too. But there are hundreds of route all around us, and I took the trouble to get up at 5 am to get here before anyone else. So please, wait 30 minutes to for me to cycle my kids through as they are waiting patiently and quietly and OUT OF THE WAY for their earned turn on the rock. Everyone gets their time on the rock eventually.
/rant.
Go ahead, piss and moan about groups hogging routes. Meanwhile, I'll be getting up early after banging your mom to send your proj. (joooking....)
(This post was edited by carabiner96 on Apr 23, 2008, 12:45 PM)
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jt512
Apr 23, 2008, 4:13 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: ...matching institutional helmets...
I'm stealing this phrase.
Jay
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blondgecko
Moderator
Apr 23, 2008, 4:17 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: Was at Rumney this past weekend...Lord that place makes you strong fast! Such sticky rock, truly hero makers! I was leading the trip, a group of newbies, and managing a group at Rumney is definitely not the easiest thing to do. As soon as people see that you're in a group larger than four, they hate you. Hard. Then, they're constantly asking if they can pull your rope and hope on the route you JUST LED, so that they can "lead it, real quick" which always turns into them, their wife, and their mom cycling through, taking an hour out of time I could have had my whole group through and moved on. This happened twice, and we were asked a couple more times, but by then I had finally grown balls to say NO-please be patient, we'll be done in a hlaf hour. We had only than two ropes going, three if we were alone. But as soon as people see the matching institutional helmets, the hating starts, even if we only had one route up. I understand groups are hard to work with. I understand that you want to climb too. But there are hundreds of route all around us, and I took the trouble to get up at 5 am to get here before anyone else. So please, wait 30 minutes to for me to cycle my kids through as they are waiting patiently and quietly and OUT OF THE WAY for their earned turn on the rock. Everyone gets their time on the rock eventually. /rant. Go ahead, piss and moan about groups hogging routes. Meanwhile, I'll be getting up early after banging your mom to send your proj.
Now, that I'd pay good money to see!
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carabiner96
Apr 23, 2008, 4:24 AM
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jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: ...matching institutional helmets... I'm stealing this phrase. Jay
I felt like such a [insert politically incorrect word for a special person who wears helmets every day] wearing a helmet at the 5.8 wall. Grrr, rules.
(This post was edited by carabiner96 on Apr 23, 2008, 4:25 AM)
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carabiner96
Apr 23, 2008, 4:26 AM
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blondgecko wrote: Now, that I'd pay good money to see!
lol, i hear your mom's a cutie!!!
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hosh
Apr 23, 2008, 4:58 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: blondgecko wrote: Now, that I'd pay good money to see! lol, i hear your mom's a cutie!!!
Um, by "banging", do you mean hitting her with your prosthetic arm, or is there a subtle "other" meaning implied? ;)
hosh.
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carabiner96
Apr 23, 2008, 5:00 AM
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hosh wrote: carabiner96 wrote: blondgecko wrote: Now, that I'd pay good money to see! lol, i hear your mom's a cutie!!! Um, by "banging", do you mean hitting her with your prosthetic arm, or is there a subtle "other" meaning implied? ;) hosh.
goddammit hosh, don't ruin it for the kiddies!
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angry
Apr 23, 2008, 6:00 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: hosh wrote: carabiner96 wrote: blondgecko wrote: Now, that I'd pay good money to see! lol, i hear your mom's a cutie!!! Um, by "banging", do you mean hitting her with your prosthetic arm, or is there a subtle "other" meaning implied? ;) hosh. goddammit hosh, don't ruin it for the kiddies!
As if an ice axe would be her only special attachment.
Duh!!
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roughster
Apr 23, 2008, 6:34 AM
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Honestly group "take overs" is one the biggest reasons why I haven't shown anyone my new "kid / family friendly" area I am developing. Its a small area with a handful of routes. It would be cool to let people know its there, but it wouldn't be cool to show up and see a group gang roping it.
I don't know. I can understand the situations that lead to group/gang roping, but I think if you have that many people asking to climb through, you most likely picked one of the more classic or well traveled routes.
If that is the case, why? You know you have a big group, why not set up on more obscure routes to keep out of others way and avoid the hassles in the 1st place? Not that you don't have a "right" to climb the crag's centerpiece 5 star 5.6 with 50 kids, just seems to make sense that having that big of a group you would want to avoid perpetuating the "hate" as you put it. Particularly if you know you will be coming back to the same crag with further groups.
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corson
Apr 23, 2008, 10:47 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: Was at Rumney this past weekend...Lord that place makes you strong fast! Such sticky rock, truly hero makers! I was leading the trip, a group of newbies, and managing a group at Rumney is definitely not the easiest thing to do. As soon as people see that you're in a group larger than four, they hate you. Hard. Then, they're constantly asking if they can pull your rope and hope on the route you JUST LED, so that they can "lead it, real quick" which always turns into them, their wife, and their mom cycling through, taking an hour out of time I could have had my whole group through and moved on. This happened twice, and we were asked a couple more times, but by then I had finally grown balls to say NO-please be patient, we'll be done in a hlaf hour. We had only than two ropes going, three if we were alone. But as soon as people see the matching institutional helmets, the hating starts, even if we only had one route up. I understand groups are hard to work with. I understand that you want to climb too. But there are hundreds of route all around us, and I took the trouble to get up at 5 am to get here before anyone else. So please, wait 30 minutes to for me to cycle my kids through as they are waiting patiently and quietly and OUT OF THE WAY for their earned turn on the rock. Everyone gets their time on the rock eventually. /rant. Go ahead, piss and moan about groups hogging routes. Meanwhile, I'll be getting up early after banging your mom to send your proj.
First off...........I politely asked you if we could lead The terrace after waiting and watching 40 minutes for 2 of your "students" (if that is what you want to call them, I did'nt see any teaching going on at all, Except by the two people from Mass. who were actually teaching their friend how to climb.) to toprope 5.8.
We drive 4 hours each way to Rumney and although I try to avoid that place on sat, it was the only day we could do it this week. My wife is seven and a half months pregnant and just wanted to warm up real quick. We spent 10 minutes on the terrace while your people (who were talking and grabassing) ate lunch. I didn't realize that you felt that thet was YOUR route. I've been climbing at Rumns for ohh.....on and off for 10 years or so and always thought that it was available to the public through the combined efforts of Ward and his crew and the park service.Hence making it PUBLIC. So little girl you should maybe learn to share.
I dont hate anyone and I dont give off that vibe so I can only assume you mean that in regards to other situations later that day. I am the Man with the pregnant partner and the two VERY well behaved and super cute dogs.
As far as banging my MOM, I saw you guys climbing and all I can say is , My MOM would be banging you.
As for as waking up early Well I wake up at 4 make lunch then am out the door by 5, drive 4 hours and am in the lot at 9 climb till dark drive 4 hours then get home at midnight. The following day I get up and travel 21/2 hours to shagg.
I hope you chill out. Next year I'll be bringing my Son too. Rumney can get crowded, deal and share, or stay home. But please dont have the audacity to presume that you have the right to monopolize any route that you mistakenly think is YOURS. ITS NOT.
cheers and happy climbing
C
(This post was edited by corson on Apr 23, 2008, 7:57 PM)
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munky
Apr 23, 2008, 11:20 AM
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Corson: 1 carabiner96: 0
It's all about mutual respect boys. Remember climbing harder than someone does not make you more entitled. Carabiner you instigated and Corson called your bluff. The simple fact is that camps, or large groups are a pain and the ass at the crag and its just par for the course at sport crags. A good rule of thumb is don't monopolize more than 3 routes at any one time and never spend more than an hour on a route if there are others who wanted to climb it.
Mutual respect.
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corson
Apr 23, 2008, 11:49 AM
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Side note
There are 16 routes at 5.8 crag. Not hundreds. They range from 5.7 - 5.12b. None of them (i have done them all except one 5.8 ) Take any longer than a couple of minutes to climb. The crag is maybe 50-60 feet tall. Crabeeners group was taking far to long to climb 5.8. 20 minutes of hanging and trying 1 move and so on. There is no way she could have ushered her people through in 3 hours let alone half of one. All climbers were TRing and she had ropes on 3 climbs at the same time. LAME. It is audacious enough to monopolize 1 route, but three? On toprope? At Rumney, On a Saturday?Come on.
C
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notapplicable
Apr 23, 2008, 11:59 AM
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corson wrote: Side note There are 16 routes at 5.8 crag. Not hundreds. They range from 5.7 - 5.12b. None of them (i have done them all except one 5.8 ) Take any longer than a couple of minutes to climb. The crag is maybe 50-60 feet tall. Crabeeners group was taking far to long to climb 5.8. 20 minutes of hanging and trying 1 move and so on. There is no way she could have ushered her people through in 3 hours let alone half of one. All climbers were TRing and she had ropes on 3 climbs at the same time. LAME. It is audacious enough to monopolize 1 route, but three? On toprope? At Rumney, On a Saturday?Come on. C
A better question would be, why in the lords name in vain did you drive four hours to climb at that place.
I made the mistake of stoping by there one time while passing through, what a pile....
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granite_grrl
Apr 23, 2008, 12:00 PM
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Biner, I love ya babe, but I hate dealing with groups. Its one thing if two people have a hang dog session on a single route, its another if there is a group of people all taking turns having hang dog sessions on 5 different routes. Even worse is if those ropes are not in constant use, which it doesn't sound like you had 5 group leaders with you.
But as Munky said, its all about respect. My favorite comprimise is to offer to the people who are waiting to pull your rope so they can lead the route but ask them if they could please set your top rope back up again when they're done. Now if they're isn't mutual respect this idea will fall apart very quickly, but you have to do your part to make this work first...and I'm sorry dear, but from your rant you don't sound like you want to do your part at all. 
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j_ung
Apr 23, 2008, 12:38 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: NO-please be patient, we'll be done in a half hour.
Sorry, biner, but I find this hard to believe. If it's true, then your groups are orders of magnitude faster than any I've ever seen in 22 years of climbing. I have to agree with anybody who says that groups and private climbers alike are, in general, better off when groups don't visit crowded crags on crowded days.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Apr 23, 2008, 12:38 PM)
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carabiner96
Apr 23, 2008, 12:38 PM
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Corson - this rant wasn't aimed at you. I quite enjoyed hanging out with you and your wife. (Yeah, by hundreds I mean the whole area...5.8 was a little crowded  . Sorry if you thought this was aimed at you, but you guys were the one couple who was plesant to us and didn't treat us like we were gangbanging the wall.
I'm more ticked at the group before you who simply started up our route, pulling our rope aside, without asking. Or the group after you at a different wall once we moved on, who despite looking at an empty wall, asked us to pull the one route we had up.
I'm more concerned about the certain point where the concessions have to be reasonable and everyone gets a chance to climb. We let people pull our ropes a couple times before it finally got to the point where we had kids not climbing for two hours.
So, let's change this from a rant to a question to ponder: is two ropes unacceptable? When is it "OK"? Because...let's face it: Groups happen. I guess I just wish people would start with "Hey, how much longer are you going to be?" than "Yo, Imma lead this bitch, you cool? [sic]"
p.s. if it was up to me, we would have been no where near rummy last weekend, I knew it would be that crowded. But these kids paid for a trip to Rumney, not the daks...
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time2clmb
Apr 23, 2008, 1:15 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: I'm more ticked at the group before you who simply started up our route, pulling our rope aside, without asking.
If the rope was hanging there not in use just be glad they didn't pull it down to the ground before climbing the route.
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WVUCLMBR
Apr 23, 2008, 1:18 PM
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I had to sit on a ledge @ Seneca last weekend for over an hour b/c I was nice/stupid and let a guy and his 2 clients jump ahead of me and the wife on a climb where the last pitch is shared by 3-4 routes. This guy actually had the balls to "teach" his "clients" how to rap from the traffic jam rap station. Backed up about 3-4 groups. Climbers need to act like golfers sometimes and let faster groups "play through". I'm all for teachin'/learnin', but don't be a crag Nazi.
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corson
Apr 23, 2008, 1:29 PM
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Biner ---
no worries, I enjoyed meeting you as well, That is why I was a little flabergasted to read this post this am. Im sure I'll bump into you again sometime soon.
Be Well
C
Ps. to all........Of coarse my wife trailed thier rope and re slung their TR, She's carrying extra lbs up front anyway, a rope off her ass just balanced her out
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nika
Apr 23, 2008, 1:33 PM
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Haha, okay, I kind of take the blame here. *I*, of course, was a perfect little angel, but my dad brought the dog (not a particularly well-behaved one), my dad's friend brought a work colleague who had never climbed before, and there were two girls from my school who, as much as I love them, did not exactly fly up the climb on lead that I think we kind of stole from your group.
I just wanted to quickly explain that when I grabbed your climb (I think I have the distinction of being the first person in the day to do so), I honestly did not get that the anchors were where they were -- I thought those were anchors for a separate route, not that the route I was on traversed right into those anchors. Once I realized that the inactive TR rope hanging from the anchors actually was for the climb I was doing, I finished up quickly and moved out of the way. Unfortunately, the two girls from my school didn't quite pick up on this, I don't think.
Anyways, though, I think you're probably going to have to realize that this is always going to be an issue if you're bringing a group to a crowded area on one of the first nice weekend days of the spring. Likewise, I definitely realize that as much as people frown on groups like yours and disapprove of them, I'm not naive enough to think that ranting about them will make them go away. I was totally aware that 5.8 crag, along with most of the other ones there, were going to be a total gong show. That's the atmosphere at Rumney basically every nice-weather weekend, no matter how hard you're climbing or what your'e getting on. You just basically have to be able to cope with that element.
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socalclimber
Apr 23, 2008, 1:38 PM
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First off, I don't know anything about Rumney, so take this with a grain of salt if you like. Here in Josh, the guide school owners and guides are very aware of the high traffic areas and avoid them like the plague. They pick areas which are appropriate for the group their guiding.
The only exception to this is when there are large groups camping in Indian Cove. Then all bets are off.
I'd really try to pick more obscure areas for groups, this way you can avoid the hassle.
I've guided small groups and had people come up and ask to hop on a route or use my setup, I've always said yes.
Just my .02 worth.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Apr 23, 2008, 1:40 PM)
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olderic
Apr 23, 2008, 1:49 PM
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nika wrote: my dad brought the dog (not a particularly well-behaved one),.
My dog is much better behaved then either my kids or 90% of the climbers at Rumney. 5.8, Meadows, Parking Lot, Jummi Cliff - they are going to be a gong show every nice weekend day - Rumney has gone Gumby - happened quite a while ago - it's a lost cause. When the traveling gumby circuses take over the Uberfall area with their shananagans - well that's when I feel like arriving with a pack of dogs.
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carabiner96
Apr 23, 2008, 2:05 PM
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nika wrote: Haha, okay, I kind of take the blame here. *I*, of course, was a perfect little angel, but my dad brought the dog (not a particularly well-behaved one), my dad's friend brought a work colleague who had never climbed before, and there were two girls from my school who, as much as I love them, did not exactly fly up the climb on lead that I think we kind of stole from your group. I just wanted to quickly explain that when I grabbed your climb (I think I have the distinction of being the first person in the day to do so), I honestly did not get that the anchors were where they were -- I thought those were anchors for a separate route, not that the route I was on traversed right into those anchors. Once I realized that the inactive TR rope hanging from the anchors actually was for the climb I was doing, I finished up quickly and moved out of the way. Unfortunately, the two girls from my school didn't quite pick up on this, I don't think. Anyways, though, I think you're probably going to have to realize that this is always going to be an issue if you're bringing a group to a crowded area on one of the first nice weekend days of the spring. Likewise, I definitely realize that as much as people frown on groups like yours and disapprove of them, I'm not naive enough to think that ranting about them will make them go away. I was totally aware that 5.8 crag, along with most of the other ones there, were going to be a total gong show. That's the atmosphere at Rumney basically every nice-weather weekend, no matter how hard you're climbing or what your'e getting on. You just basically have to be able to cope with that element.
Hey nika, thanks for the feedback. Nope, you guys weren't bad at all (flash was a bit much, but in a cute way - though he did end up being quite muddy!) and it was a mistake that you started up the wrong route, one I could have averted but i was busy belaying a leader.
This was my first group trip to Rumney and I think I'll be recommending to the management team here to make it the last, at least for a beginner trip. It sounds like other groups I ran into this weekend had similar...issues. Rumney is a very unique area in terms of crowd control...it's a freakin zoo! So different from around here, I had a hard time adjusting that morning.
And yes, some of my participants were...slow, at best. And making out. Sorry for that.
There was just a very dirty attitude towards groups in general the whole weekend (and from neither of the parties who jumped in here). Corson and Nika both engaged the group, which is, i think, the reason that these guys aren't the ones that stood out (the route takeover, nika, was at a different wall on sunday.
I just people would like...TALK. As a leader, I would love it if someone would come up to me and say "Hey, three ropes is a bit much" or "Your rope is dead, can I pull it?"
This is a very circular conversation, but I would love to hear more feedback on how to improve everyone's experience...even the groups.
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cracklover
Apr 23, 2008, 2:05 PM
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Mmm... got my popcorn. Hold on a sec, guys, let me refill my soda.
GO
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carabiner96
Apr 23, 2008, 2:06 PM
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corson wrote: Biner --- no worries, I enjoyed meeting you as well, That is why I was a little flabergasted to read this post this am. Im sure I'll bump into you again sometime soon. Be Well C Ps. to all........Of coarse my wife trailed thier rope and re slung their TR, She's carrying extra lbs up front anyway, a rope off her ass just balanced her out
I can only hope I'm still out there when I'm 7 mos in the bag!! You should check out that sherpa lining they sell at joannes to line her chest harness with, I heard her say it was uncomfortable, and when I use to climb with an arm harness thats what I used.
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