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timstich
Jun 17, 2004, 3:36 PM
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I have not dug up the research to show it. Perhaps someone else can. But I am aware that both the US and Canada have similar gun ownership numbers yet have very different violent crime numbers, specifically gun related crimes. Simply put, Canadians are much less likely to shoot each other for whatever reason. Why is this?
If you could capsulize the proble, which is of course impossible, one could label it a cultural issue. Canadians simply do not react to various pressures and desires where the end result is a gun death. Now I know, getting stabbed or beaten to death is no better than shot. But set aside those assaults if you will. Why are Canadians not predisposed to handle disputes by arms?
As a Libertarian, I see the argument presented that TV and movies don't cause gun crime, and to an extent I believe that. How far I believe it is another thing. What incrimental effect does playing violent video games have on the individual? What about watching 50 films where a gun settles the problem? This can't have zero effect. As a good friend of mine said once, "Everything effects you." What color clothes you decide to wear effects you, albeit in a very small way. You cannot negate things out of hand.
A Russian friend of mine brought up the Canadian comparisson. He lived there for a number of years. He also noted that all of the violent games and movies were very popular there. So perhaps this is not the greatest factor. What about attitudes? Divorce rates? Number of broken homes? What exactly is going on?
If you live in Canada, perhaps you can comment on this cultural difference we seem to have. I'll try to examine what I have seen here in the U.S.
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katydid
Jun 17, 2004, 4:00 PM
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I don't live there now, but I just came back to the US from seven years there.
From the American-in-Canada POV, I can give you a few things:
Canadians are not nearly as paranoid as Americans about their government, the "other guy", or the bogeyman that may or may not be waiting around the corner. Strangely enough, I found the Canadian government to work much more like the system the Founding Fathers had hoped to assemble in the US, which is to say relatively ineffective (in the good way).
Most of the gun ownership that I was aware of was in the prairie provinces (I lived in Ontario), and the gun owners I knew of were avid hunters who didn't take their guns out unless they were going to go shoot some critter. :mrgreen: OTOH, most of the people I knew (a couple of them ex-Canadian military) thought the "shoot the burglar" law would be a pretty darn good idea. One ex-Army friend of mine up there used to claim that Canadians had a greater proclivity to violence than their American neighbors, and that gun control was the only way to keep everyone from getting all Wild West on each other's asses, but I don't know how much I buy that. People who live in the prairies may have a completely different opinion on this issue (and from what I could glean, do) -- opinion varies wildly from region to region on most issues.
There have been school shootings in Canada.
One thing I was going to comment on in the gun control thread was the orange tips on the toy guns in the US. Interesting, as this comes the day after Ben and I were explaining to his son about not pointing even toy guns at people, as others could mistake them for the real thing. In Canada, toy guns CANNOT look like real guns-- they have to be silly looking and brightly colored so police can easily tell the difference (and therefore not accidentally shoot kids with toys). I liked this law. I think we should have one like it in the States.
There were some really dumb laws about registering antique guns, but I can't remember the particulars of it, other than what was dumb was that people could be charged for owning some sort of non-functional family heirloom if they didn't pay a fee to register the weapon. But most Canadians I knew thought it was dumb, too, and the registration wasn't working too well. It was also costing a mint to implement the registry -- quite a bit more than had been projected. I left about the time that this was starting to get up and running, so I have no idea what ultimately came of it.
I should really be working right now, but thought it might be interesting to throw in some observations from someone that's seen both sides.
k.
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vertical_reality
Jun 17, 2004, 4:17 PM
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I'm originally from Canada, lived there for 24 years and I have lived in the states for almost 5 years. The cultural difference is minimal. We have all the same movies, games and TV shows.
The main difference I have found between Canadians and Americans is that Canadians are less self-centered and care about about other people, whether they know them or not. Americans generally don't.
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katydid
Jun 17, 2004, 4:26 PM
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Ditto to what v_r said, as well.
k.
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timstich
Jun 17, 2004, 4:26 PM
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In reply to: I'm originally from Canada, lived there for 24 years and I have lived in the states for almost 5 years. The cultural difference is minimal. We have all the same movies, games and TV shows.
Which were primarily made in the U.S. I assume.
In reply to: The main difference I have found between Canadians and Americans is that Canadians are less self-centered and care about about other people, whether they know them or not. Americans generally don't.
My Russian friend Vitali elaborates with the idea that in general, Americans are much harder on themselves. They drive themselves harder. They make the consequences of failure more distasteful. They hate to lose. They loathe weakness, especially in themselves. This is a big part of the culture. The natural extension of that is if one finds themselves lacking respect, possessions, and social status, there is more of a backlash.
I found that idea interesting, but not entirely satisfactory. And Americans in close knit communities are very caring. Hurricanes bring this out in people. People who don't know each other will help one another repair homes, clean up damage, etc. But the general fear and paranoia. I wonder about that.
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vertical_reality
Jun 17, 2004, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm originally from Canada, lived there for 24 years and I have lived in the states for almost 5 years. The cultural difference is minimal. We have all the same movies, games and TV shows. Which were primarily made in the U.S. I assume.
Yes, I meant that the US culture is very strong in Canada.
In reply to: In reply to: The main difference I have found between Canadians and Americans is that Canadians are less self-centered and care about about other people, whether they know them or not. Americans generally don't. My Russian friend Vitali elaborates with the idea that in general, Americans are much harder on themselves. They drive themselves harder. They make the consequences of failure more distasteful. They hate to lose. They loathe weakness, especially in themselves. This is a big part of the culture. The natural extension of that is if one finds themselves lacking respect, possessions, and social status, there is more of a backlash. I found that idea interesting, but not entirely satisfactory. And Americans in close knit communities are very caring. Hurricanes bring this out in people. People who don't know each other will help one another repair homes, clean up damage, etc. But the general fear and paranoia. I wonder about that.
See if you can find the articles about how Newfoundlanders welcomed the Americans that were stranded there for days after the 9/11 attacks. I doubt the response would be the same if it was the other way around.
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mike
Jun 17, 2004, 5:10 PM
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Check out "On Paradise Drive" by David Brooks for an entertaining look at American culture.
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bluto
Jun 17, 2004, 5:17 PM
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In reply to: See if you can find the articles about how Newfoundlanders welcomed the Americans that were stranded there for days after the 9/11 attacks. I doubt the response would be the same if it was the other way around.
How do you think Canadians stranded in the US by a terrorist attack would be treated?
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tgreene
Jun 17, 2004, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: See if you can find the articles about how Newfoundlanders welcomed the Americans that were stranded there for days after the 9/11 attacks. I doubt the response would be the same if it was the other way around.
While an interewsting observation, that's so untrue, depending upon the area in which you reside. I'm lucky enough to live in a tiny community that all pulls together if someone gets a bad case of the hiccups! 8^)
As for or firearms laws, I believe the greatest difference between the US and Canada is that our laws are primarily set and regulated at the state level. Yes, we clearly have an overiding set of federal laws, but then each state and even city is allowed to enact their own more restrictive legislation based upon who seems to be in control at the time. I'm all for a unified set of federal laws, that don't seem to change every 3 miles up the road.
The US also has a greater melting pot of races and cultural backgrounds. We have a greater number of major metropolises that breed hate and incivility on the streets, thus spilling over as violent acts against humanity.
Unfortunately, we also have the ACLU which has taken parenting away from the parents, making it ilegal to spank your kids. This also goes for the education system that no longer holds kids back, but passes them right along in fear of lawsuits for making the kid look stupid.
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vertical_reality
Jun 17, 2004, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: See if you can find the articles about how Newfoundlanders welcomed the Americans that were stranded there for days after the 9/11 attacks. I doubt the response would be the same if it was the other way around. How do you think Canadians stranded in the US by a terrorist attack would be treated?
I have no doubt that if the roles were reversed that Canadians would be well treated. But I highly doubt that it would be to same extent. While the local school gym was turned into a make shift hotel, many were invited to stay in the homes of the residents of Gander, Newfoundland.
I read a story about an American that ran out of gas while traveling across Newfoundland. He went to the nearest house to ask for help. It was supper time when he knocked on the door, the people who greated him not only gave him a ride to the gas station but took him and his family in and shared their meal.
You'll never find hospitality anywhere to match that of Newfoudland.
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dookie
Jun 17, 2004, 6:04 PM
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having grown up in small town america, I can tell you, you will likely find the same kind treatment of others.
Go to Pittsburg, NH, where my dad lives. Great people who would give you the shirt off their back even if you didn't need it. Being kind and generous isn't just a Canadian trait.
It's big town/city living in America that you find people scared of others and not so inclined to help others out like that - after all, I had some huge changes to make in my lifestyle moving to the city after living in the sticks. There's no way I'd let a stranger around here into my house. Back in rural new england, I wouldn't hesitate to.
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tgreene
Jun 17, 2004, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: I read a story about an American that ran out of gas while traveling across Newfoundland. He went to the nearest house to ask for help. It was supper time when he knocked on the door, the people who greated him not only gave him a ride to the gas station but took him and his family in and shared their meal. You'll never find hospitality anywhere to match that of Newfoudland.
Good story, now let me tell you about an American couple (my wife and I) that picked up a homeless hitchhiker, brought him home, cooked him dinner, gave him additional canned goods for the road, and then took him back to the highway where he could continue on his journey...
You'll never find hospitality anywhere to match that of Camp Point, IL.
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vertical_reality
Jun 17, 2004, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I read a story about an American that ran out of gas while traveling across Newfoundland. He went to the nearest house to ask for help. It was supper time when he knocked on the door, the people who greated him not only gave him a ride to the gas station but took him and his family in and shared their meal. You'll never find hospitality anywhere to match that of Newfoudland. Good story, now let me tell you about an American couple ( my wife and I) that picked up a homeless hitchhiker, brought him home, cooked him dinner, gave him additional canned goods for the road, and then took him back to the highway where he could continue on his journey... You'll never find hospitality anywhere to match that of Camp Point, IL.
Good show! You're a rarity.
Sorry if I sound like DJmeat and came across as "my home is better then your home". :D Most of my experience in the US has been in cities and the people are not overly friendly. However, I've met some fine people in smaller communities and can't say anything negative about them.
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shakylegs
Jun 17, 2004, 6:38 PM
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This morning, while driving to work, I purposely swerved so that I hit a puddle, spraying a pedestrian with oily, dirty water. That, my friends, is an act of charity that can be found anywhere. So, you see, we're not all that different.
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danooguy
Jun 17, 2004, 6:56 PM
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vertical reality, your broad sweeping statements reflect that you see precisely what you want to see.
There's a saying that goes something like, "Go there in good spirit and that is exactly what you will find."
As to this thread, it is an interesting valid question. But perhaps the answer is as elusive as the cause of the rash of school shootings here and abroad.
Something is broken.
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katydid
Jun 17, 2004, 7:08 PM
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I have found generosity in both Americans and Canadians, in both cities and rural areas.
Canada's about as culturally diverse as it gets, so that can't be a basis for comparison. Toronto's one of the only cities in the world that boasts that almost all of the world's languages are spoken there, for example.
As a side note, I will never stop forget the generosity of the perfect strangers in my town in Canada who called me on the phone after September 11 just because they knew of me (I was running a theatre company, so my name popped up around town) and wanted to offer their support. It was a very hard time to be an American living outside the country, but my neighbors made it a bit easier for me.
I still think that Canadians as a whole are much more trusting of their government and of the people around them. And I think this makes a huge difference in how they view guns and gun control.
k.
Edit: I can't spell guvermint.
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danooguy
Jun 18, 2004, 1:55 AM
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Katydid, I own a few guns. For what its worth, my "view" of them has absolutely nothing to do with my view of our government. The overwhelming majority of other gun owners that I know would say the same thing.
I own them. I use them for hunting, or just for the pleasure of target shooting, and I own one that could be used to help me protect my family if necessary. I don't want to have them taken from me because of the actions of criminals. It is that simple.
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tattooed_climber
Jun 18, 2004, 2:05 AM
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In reply to: I have found generosity in both Americans and Canadians, in both cities and rural areas.
there are good people's in ALL cultures, at the same time, there are many @ssholes in ALL cultures, America has it's share of @ssholes just like Canada, but maybe America has a little more unfortantly....
Canada Vs USA is always hard to compare, we are similar and different in many ways...similar in Culture, different in attitude and outlooks....etc etc, blah blah blah...
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macherry
Jun 18, 2004, 3:33 AM
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interesting question
guns: most gun owners i know, have them for hunting or collecting. It's rare that someone has one exclusively for protection. I grew up on the prairies, where i'm sure most homes had a shotgun. It never occured to my dad or family that we would ever need one for protection. We never considered it "a right" it was just what it was.
as for cdn. vs. us hospitality, some of the most generous, friendly ppl i have met have been from the us. I was in a car accident two yrs. ago in wa. state and from the guy who rear-ended me to the cops to the hotel where i sat in the lobby to stop shaking, i was well taken care of.
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hugepedro
Jun 18, 2004, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: I have not dug up the research to show it. Perhaps someone else can. But I am aware that both the US and Canada have similar gun ownership numbers yet have very different violent crime numbers, specifically gun related crimes. Simply put, Canadians are much less likely to shoot each other for whatever reason. Why is this?
One reason is our war on drugs.
Prior to 1984, the rate of gun violence in the U.S. had been trending steadily down for decades across all age groups. Then Reagan "got tough" on crack cocaine.
The drug dealers recruited kids to sell for them so that the adult dealers could avoid the federal mandatory minimum sentences. The kids soon found out that they were in a dangerous business and needed guns for protection. Conveniently, they had a readily available channel through which to acquire guns - the dealers who recruited them. Before long that distribution channel spread gun ownership to the non-drug-dealing kids (they found that they also needed guns to protect themselves from the packin' kid dealers, and the adult dealers found that they could make money selling guns as well as drugs).
Ever since 1984 gun violence in the 21 and younger age group has been steadily increasing, while all other age demographics have continued to steadily decrease. The problem will not be reversable until we end our war on drugs, effectively removing the market for drug dealers. Even then, I think it would take nearly a generation to reverse the trend.
I think another reason is our social programs. A big difference between the U.S. and, not just Canada, but every single other 1st world nation, is that they all have very robust social programs, against which, ours pale in comparison. Education, health care, mental health care, worker care (unemployment support, vocational retraining, etc); those things make a big difference in how effectively a society functions. The more dog-eat-dog our world is, well, the more dogs are gonna get et'.
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meataxe
Jun 18, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: See if you can find the articles about how Newfoundlanders welcomed the Americans that were stranded there for days after the 9/11 attacks. I doubt the response would be the same if it was the other way around. How do you think Canadians stranded in the US by a terrorist attack would be treated?
As for attitude toward guns... it depends. There's all kinds here from Rambo wanabees to gunshy nervous schoolmarms (to name just a couple of stereotypes). Like in the States there's the same demographic factors--the rural population is likely to be less afraid of guns because they are more a part of daily life than in the big cities. We don't have a second amendment and never did, so in general we are probably less defensive of our gun rights. The gun-right lobbists are not as strong here either. And in most cases (but not all) our gun laws are more restrictive.
As or gun violence... I think that in most situations, the level of violence would be virtually the same. We don't have the same level of gang violence that is a huge factor in American crime statistics (but were getting there). You hear less cases of guns being used in self defense in an armed robbery or home invasion, but it is not unheard of and more often than not the victim is charged. As for the effect of the war on drugs... I don't know enough about it, but I'd be suprised if there wasn't a bit more than a kernel of truth.
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galf
Jun 19, 2004, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: I think another reason is our social programs. A big difference between the U.S. and, not just Canada, but every single other 1st world nation, is that they all have very robust social programs, against which, ours pale in comparison. Education, health care, mental health care, worker care (unemployment support, vocational retraining, etc); those things make a big difference in how effectively a society functions. The more dog-eat-dog our world is, well, the more dogs are gonna get et'.
YOU GOT IT!!!! The gap between rich and poor is way narrower.
We've got public healthcare(a.k.a. free for non-taxpayers, and equal in services to the rich and poor.) and low income folks get a load of money each month. Also, you can get daycare for 7CD$ per day.
Oh, and free schools until university and you can do your bachelors degree with 3000$ per year!! Less tempting to become a drug dealer.
Cheers
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tgreene
Jun 19, 2004, 5:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think another reason is our social programs. A big difference between the U.S. and, not just Canada, but every single other 1st world nation, is that they all have very robust social programs, against which, ours pale in comparison. Education, health care, mental health care, worker care (unemployment support, vocational retraining, etc); those things make a big difference in how effectively a society functions. The more dog-eat-dog our world is, well, the more dogs are gonna get et'. YOU GOT IT!!!! The gap between rich and poor is way narrower. We've got public healthcare(a.k.a. free for non-taxpayers, and equal in services to the rich and poor.) and low income folks get a load of money each month. Also, you can get daycare for 7CD$ per day. Oh, and free schools until university and you can do your bachelors degree with 3000$ per year!! Less tempting to become a drug dealer. Cheers
This is all well and good, but that money must come from somewhere... You have just described the Robin Hood effect, and no matter how you slice it, the wealthy class are being screwed for the benefit of those unable or unwilling to provide for themselves!
Our schools are also free up to the university level, except that in reality NOTHING is ever free. My homes' value would easily rate in the top 3-5% in my community, and 73% of my property taxes (and I own 2 properties) goes to the public education system... This would all be well and good, except my wife and I have no children, so the "free" system is anything but free to us, since we pay a much greater portion of funding than the vast majority of those that actually use the system.
We also have free healthcare in the form of welfare, but since those of us with jobs (or spouses with jobs) don't qualify, we have to pay through the nose to suppliment those that are unable or unwilling to provide for themselves!
Our educational system was superior when it was kept in local control, but it's now government regulated... The healthcare systems are exactly the same way, but we can thank the insurance companies and "corporate medicine" for that one, because HMO's and PPO's have created a problem that will be very difficult to fix!
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danooguy
Jun 20, 2004, 3:26 PM
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In reply to: The gap between rich and poor is way narrower.
In reply to: ...and low income folks get a load of money each month.
Essentially, you've set a limit on how much a person can prosper from his or her own labors, and you go on to brag about how easy it is to remain poor.
I'm confused. Is that supposed to sound attractive?
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