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epic_ed
Oct 19, 2005, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Aiding through a rivet ladder is nothing remotely close to "safe" and is no where near comparable to sport climbing. Ed It is if they are replaced with 3/8 inch bolts! :evil:
I think the other responses have already covered this, but to clarify -- a true rivet ladder is nothing at all like a bolt ladder.
If I were doing an FA, my approach would be drilling a hole is drilling a hole -- regardless of how shallow it is -- and for that reason I would leave something sustainable. This doesn't have to be a 3/8" bolt, but I'm sure I'd choose a solid 1/4" x 2" rivet that would not need to be replaced for a decade or two. To me, using machine head rivets sunk only a 1/4" into the rock is bullshit. Sure, it's a scary rivet ladder, but the difficulty is entirely contrived. However, if the FAist decided that he/she was going to have a ultra-scary pitch of barely-placed-might-hold-body-weight rivets that's entirely his deal and should be respect by subsequent parties. I don't understand doing a pitch that way, but to each his own.
Ed
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cruxnc
Oct 19, 2005, 8:26 PM
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Something deep down is telling me not to post this question because this site has become a flame fest. But I don't really no how else you learn...
I am not an experienced leader. I have never aided. Asking this question does NOT mean I am going to jump on a route and endanger myself or others. I simply want to educate myself. End Long Winded disclaimer.
Why the debate? Why not replace old potentially dangerous bolts with newer safer bolts if it is done in a responsilbe manner (sparing new holes, etc) It seems to me a l few climbers getting hurt on old shitty bolts could cause access issues and spoil the fun for everyone.
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pmyche
Oct 19, 2005, 8:42 PM
Post #28 of 37
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In reply to: Why the debate?
Hey man, we are climbers... = ]
In reply to: Why not replace old potentially dangerous bolts with newer safer bolts if it is done in a responsilbe manner (sparing new holes, etc)
This m.o. is pretty much followed by people who rebolt and supported by most who climb the routes. I'd use copious discretion when using terms like "dangerous" and "safe." Climbing will never be safe, and it's all relative. Sadly, a climber died on the Trip shortly after it was re-bolted. Maybe those fat bolts weren't so safe (of course it wasn't due to bolt failure). You get my gist.
In reply to: It seems to me a l few climbers getting hurt on old s--- bolts could cause access issues and spoil the fun for everyone
I'm not an expert on access issues, but I think that's an issue--albeit not a huge one on government land. Litigation seems more dangerous to access than casualties. Someone can correct me, please.
In reply to: Also, what is the big difference between bolt ladders and rivet ladders?
IMO, A bolt has a resident hanger or the ability to install one and tighten it on. A rivet accepts a loose rivet hanger of various designs. Note that climber terminology for these items as I describe is not accurate in terms of hardware definitions. (Most "rivets" are actually bolts, though they can be aluminum and of a variety of designs.)
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stymingersfink
Oct 19, 2005, 8:43 PM
Post #29 of 37
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quick n dirty answer:
the nature of the route, and the desire to allow others to experience the route as the first ascentionist experienced the route.
If the first ascentionist placed the best technology of the times, expecting it to hold severe falls, by all means replace the hardware with the current 'best' technology. Hardware placed by a first acentionist 30 years ago has been subjected to the repeated use and abuse of subsequent ascents, in addition to being exposed to the elements. 1/4" ers being replaced by 3/8" bolts? go for it.
A grey area may be poorly placed rivits, due to conditions of the time or the skill of the FA'ist. For example, most recently I had the opportunity to clip 5/16 machine bolts, some of which protruded from the rock nearly an inch. How much of the 'rivit' was being held by the rock is anybodies guess. Now if they shear off or are pulled out, would you replace what appears to be a poor (scary) rivit with a 1/4 split-shaft button head properly installed in the correct dimension hole? Or would you replace the (possibly mank) rivit with another mank placement?
Since few (imho) would intentionally place mank on the FA of a new route, perhaps it should be replaced properly and allowed to age and weather to its own unique state of mank.
Of course, I'm open to suggestion, though I'm sure when the time comes there will be many variables which will dictate to me the actions taken.
P.S. if the allegations of destruction on TT are true, perhaps the culprit deserves to have THEIR head smashed a bit with a hammer, and perhaps THEIR hangers removed, IYKWIM.
FWIW, there were two parties on the Trip in early Oct, a guy/girl team followed by (what sounded like) a pair of Germanic speakers. They both seemed to move quickly through the area above P5 with little trouble...Can they confirm/deny the status of the route as of two weeks ago?
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pmyche
Oct 19, 2005, 9:30 PM
Post #30 of 37
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In reply to: I had the opportunity to clip 5/16 machine bolts, some of which protruded from the rock nearly an inch. How much of the 'rivit' was being held by the rock is anybodies guess. Now if they shear off or are pulled out, would you replace what appears to be a poor (scary) rivit with a 1/4 split-shaft button head properly installed in the correct dimension hole? Or would you replace the (possibly mank) rivit with another mank placement?
Answer A is exactly what happened here:
http://www.ousleycreative.com/(C)mikeousley20.jpg
Assuming I had the drill/HW. If not, and I couldn't hook through, penji around or some other sketch remedy, I'd use the ledge as a cheat stick and put the word out. If I had no bolt kit or ledge and the usual extension/climbing around tricks didn't work and I had a heading kit, I might chisel a hook rather than bail, depending where I was. But I'm a firm believer in a bolt kit on every camping-style wall, so moot point on that last bit of undesirable destruction for the most part.
PS: Check out that varnish (or whatever it's called)...solid on the surface, not so underneath. 5/16" crater @ upper right.
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stymingersfink
Oct 19, 2005, 10:04 PM
Post #31 of 37
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I found some craters resembling what you posted on a few of the upper pitches of ZM last month, and wondered at the time WTF caused them.
I thought they might have been worn/poorly installed drilled hooks at the time, and now I forget what the work around was... I think a bat hook hole was discovered after searching high and low. Definitely caused some head scratching at the time though.
Personally, the drilled hooks I found on the route were often more refreshing than the rivits... I'd be stepping off a rivit and breathe a sigh of relief for the drilled hook I was now on.
BTW, I'm thinking of installing a new, independent route on El Cap. It will consist of nothing but full pitch lengths of drilled bat-hooks, unless gear placements can be found in line with my plumb approach. It will consist of approximately 600 holes 3/8"deep, +- a few dozen of course where gear can be found. It will be named after a Tool song... Hooker with a Penis! :lol:
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dangle
Oct 19, 2005, 10:24 PM
Post #32 of 37
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Hey Stinkyfinger, don't think much will come of your plumb perforation.
Glad you pointed out the grey area of quicky bolts that were merely poorly placed but thats all they are anyway.
Adding "risk" to a line of drilled anchors is myopically contrived.
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lambone
Oct 20, 2005, 5:26 AM
Post #33 of 37
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In reply to: ......but I have to ask can you really replace a rivit? Seems to me you'll be drilling a new hole. I understand and agree with the rationale behind not replacing rivit with fatty bolts....but what happens when said rivit is trashed over ripped from the rock(ala' kate)??? Do we leave holes that we hope to bathook? Most folks agree that bathooking isn't cool......do we drill a new hole for a new rivit? Do we try and use the same obviously shitty hole?
FYI- As best I can tell no attempt was made on the Tangerine Trip to re-use any of the old rivet holes. All the new 3/8" bolts on the ladders up high were drilled adjacent to the old ladders in new holes.
I may be wrong saying all of the holes were new (100s of holes) but at least most of them.
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stymingersfink
Oct 20, 2005, 7:48 PM
Post #34 of 37
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In reply to: Hey Stinkyfinger, don't think much will come of your plumb perforation. Glad you pointed out the grey area of quicky bolts that were merely poorly placed but thats all they are anyway. Adding "risk" to a line of drilled anchors is myopically contrived.
Ahh, don't get the wrong idea... was more of a tongue-in-cheek suggestion, almost more indicative of what was playin on the 'Pod. It was good for a laugh at the time though.
'Course, You're the Man, no?
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areyoumydude
Oct 21, 2005, 12:19 AM
Post #35 of 37
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In reply to: To me, using machine head rivets sunk only a 1/4" into the rock is s---. Ed
Yep, but they work
In reply to: the difficulty is entirely contrived. Ed
Nothing difficult about hanging on gear.
In reply to: However, if the FAist decided that he/she was going to have a ultra-scary pitch of barely-placed-might-hold-body-weight rivets that's entirely his deal and should be respect by subsequent parties. I don't understand doing a pitch that way, but to each his own. Ed
The reason they do it is because it is faster and easier.
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ricardol
Oct 25, 2005, 1:54 AM
Post #36 of 37
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ed ...
i agree with the post above ..
most likely the FA placed shallow rivets due to speed -- rather than to make a scary pitch -- ..
brand new shallow rivets are not likely to fall out...verify this with the FA"ists of the day -- they will confirm it ..
-----------------------
i recently had the pleasure of placing a buttonhead -- damm hole was deep (i think it was a 1/4" x 1 1/2" buttonhead (powers)) ..
.. took about 15 or 20 minutes to drill the hole -- granted it was the first bolt i've ever placed .. so i could get faster -- but thats a long time per hole ..
.. and it was still a bit shallow -- when i filled it about 1/4" of the buttonhead was left sticking out (some of the hole cratered) -- but it will hold for a long time -- the whole part of the bolt that is compressing against the rock made it into the hole. (now if only i had remembered to put a washer on it !)
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t-dog
Deleted
Oct 27, 2005, 9:15 AM
Post #37 of 37
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In reply to: Litigation seems more dangerous to access than casualties. Someone can correct me, please.
Hopefully not by falling off a wall and dieing :lol:
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