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glowering


Jun 6, 2006, 6:00 PM
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Very nice drawing.


charlesjmm


Jun 6, 2006, 7:29 PM
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In reply to:
Charles, I think the 3 point sliding X/W is theoreticaly 33/33/33 if there's no knots in it.

You are as sharp as usual Glowering. Thanks for correcting me.

CharlesJMM


sittingduck


Jun 6, 2006, 8:25 PM
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Glowering, sorry, you posted while I was writing my post so I did not get to read it.
In reply to:
What I (YMMV) have been doing is picking my two best bomber pieces and connecting them with a limited knot sliding X with a little extra slack in the strand of the sling with the X in it at the powerpoint. i.e.
I think it is a brilliant way to rig the sliding x, impressingly smart.

In reply to:
Then I have the best possible equalization for my two best pieces, and redundancy with a single 48" sling. That probably all you really need. But sometimes I'll put in a 3rd piece with a sling that's slightly loose to the powerpoint biner as a backup. Or if needed 2 more pieces with another limited knot sliding X (or tied like a cordelette) that's a little loose at the powerpoint biner.

How do you adjust the 48" sling and the redundant cordalette? Is it possible to see some pictures of your anchors?


Partner cracklover


Jun 6, 2006, 9:00 PM
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Your anchor is certainly viable, but I personally find it inferior to two of the ones that came out of the big thread.

Before I go into which anchor setups I like, let me share my concern with your anchor. It's not that impossible that a piece could rip. It happens. Yes, equalizing pieces helps keep that from happening, and any anchor we consider must at least do a good job at distributing, if not equalizing, for me to be happy with it (which is why I don't use the standard cordelette any more). And yes, your anchor does look like it equalizes well.

But what happens if one piece does rip in your anchor?

1 The anchor extends by as much as the rope between pieces, which could be pretty significant. What are the implications?
1a - The belayer can lose their stance, causing them to lose control of the belay.
1b - The belayer can fall onto the anchor.

What happens next?
2 - You now have an anchor which has the worst components of the old cordelette method (non-equalizing) but without the best (minimal extension).
2a - The belayer (plus whatever weight of fallen climber) takes significant falls of say one to six feet directly onto each of these pieces in sequence, until one is able to withstand the force of the fall.

It's those long falls onto subsequent pieces that are really what bugs me, so let me try to flesh out how they could happen. Let's say you set up your anchor in a vertical crack system. Three feet between top piece and middle piece. Top piece rips. Belayer (plus weight of fallen climber) now falls *six* feet onto the middle piece which is expected to hold the entire weight of the fall. See what I mean?

In short, I'd say that this anchor setup is not good with tenuous pieces!

Here are the anchors I like:

This one:
http://i26.photobucket.com/...iker/charlesjmm2.jpg

This one:
http://i26.photobucket.com/...riker/mooselette.jpg
Seen here in action:
http://i26.photobucket.com/.../gostriker/anch3.jpg

And of course the simple sliding-x with limiter knots.
http://i26.photobucket.com/...ker/2_xed_slings.jpg

Each of these accomplish the same things your anchor does, but with much shorter extension, and without reducing the anchor to a fully non-equalizing one if a single piece rips.

Of course I could go into the pros and cons of each of the above, but this thread is about your anchor. I just include the above three anchors to show some alternatives.

GO


Partner cracklover


Jun 6, 2006, 9:21 PM
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In reply to:
Belayer (plus weight of fallen climber) now falls *six* feet onto the middle piece which is expected to hold the entire weight of the fall. See what I mean?

And that's assuming you anticipated such a thing happening. If you didn't anticipate it, and mistakenly set it up so the backup rope goes top->bottom->middle piece, and it's another two feet between the middle and the bottom piece, you now take nearly a factor two *ten* foot fall onto the bottom piece only. Not good.

GO


glowering


Jun 6, 2006, 9:24 PM
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Thanks for your responses Duck and Charles,

In reply to:
How do you adjust the 48" sling and the redundant cordalette? Is it possible to see some pictures of your anchors?

I try not to adjust the 48" sling and in fact I haven't had to yet. I have about 12" of space between the limiter knots, and about 8" difference in length between the two arms (above the limiter knots). It will go from two pieces at the same height to I'd guess around 16" in height difference between the two pieces. I would probably rather extend a piece that was farther away than mess with the knots in the slidingX.

The redundant backup could be anything really, just left a little loose so the two best, equalized pieces take the load first. I've used just a single piece and 24" sling, a 48" sling tied with a static knot like a cordelette on two pieces, and a static tied cordellete on 3 or 4 pieces (inluding pieces already in the primary limited knot sliding X). On a big ledge (you wouldn't fall off of) I've just used the slidingX with no backup.

I'll try to do some photos tonight. I guesstimated where the knots should be and it ended up being really good, so I'll measure what I used (the measurements above are guesses).


sittingduck


Jun 6, 2006, 10:59 PM
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Thanks for replying cracklover
In reply to:
Before I go into which anchor setups I like, let me share my concern with your anchor. It's not that impossible that a piece could rip. It happens. Yes, equalizing pieces helps keep that from happening, and any anchor we consider must at least do a good job at distributing, if not equalizing, for me to be happy with it (which is why I don't use the standard cordelette any more). And yes, your anchor does look like it equalizes well.
It is possible to get near perfect distribution once the shock load criteria is reduced, like CharlesJMM demonstrates in his sliding X/W. In my method the THEORY is that I'll try to get as much force out of the dreaded FF2 fall as possible with the none redundant sliding X/W. IF one piece blows, I hope that the sliding x has reduced the force of the fall and that my dynamic climbing rope will take the rest. I am counting on the complete system, not just the sliding X. I climb with two ropes and rig them so that one rope is clove hitched to one piece and the other rope to two pieces. This way I get minimal extension and dynamic help from the rope but still loose equalization.

In reply to:
But what happens if one piece does rip in your anchor?

1 The anchor extends by as much as the rope between pieces, which could be pretty significant. What are the implications?
1a - The belayer can lose their stance, causing them to lose control of the belay.
1b - The belayer can fall onto the anchor.
If one piece rips I get 1. a little extension about 20cm + dynamic in the rope, or 2. a lidle more extension or 3. even more extension (I tried to rig the worst case scenario and measured it to 1 meter). Again, using two ropes will only produce a lidle extention if one piece blows.
The implication is as you say that the belayer is pulled downwards with great force, which is important to take into consideration if one chose to rig a belay in this fashion.
I am not sure what you mean by saying that the belayer can fall into the anchor?

In reply to:
What happens next?
2 - You now have an anchor which has the worst components of the old cordelette method (non-equalizing) but without the best (minimal extension).
2a - The belayer (plus whatever weight of fallen climber) takes significant falls of one to three feet directly onto each of these pieces in sequence, until one is able to withstand the force of the fall.

In short, I'd say that this anchor setup is not good with tenuous pieces!
2) I now hopefully have REDUCED the FORCE OF THE FALL enough for the "old fashion cordalette" to do the rest of the job. 2a) Yes, hopefully not to significant.
As you see, the method greatly depends on my competence at placing pro, but I believe that goes for any design? If I only have tenuous options I'll consider any option to make it as safe as possible.

In reply to:
Each of these accomplish the same things your anchor does, but with much shorter extension, and without reducing the anchor to a fully non-equalizing one if a single piece rips.
I guess they do but not in the KISS department. How important is it to keep things as simple as possible in trad climbing?

I think the anchors you show are beautiful. I understand the first one, only thing I don't like is that I have to make the knots on the legs before I clip them to the pieces, right? The rest of them seems to become to complicated to set up for me personally.
On the last picture you have a redundancy problem, the chain on the door is not closed;)


sittingduck


Jun 6, 2006, 11:03 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Belayer (plus weight of fallen climber) now falls *six* feet onto the middle piece which is expected to hold the entire weight of the fall. See what I mean?

And that's assuming you anticipated such a thing happening. If you didn't anticipate it, and mistakenly set it up so the backup rope goes top->bottom->middle piece, and it's another two feet between the middle and the bottom piece, you now take nearly a factor two *ten* foot fall onto the bottom piece only. Not good.

GO

hmmm ... sounds bad. I do not understand this, sorry. Could I ask you to explain?


glowering


Jun 7, 2006, 4:07 AM
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Here's some quick photos of a pretied-limited knot-offset-sloppy-slidingX :lol:

I'm suprised how close I guessed on the dimensions in my previous post. :) Looks like about 11" of max extension possible.

This takes longer to tie than I want to spend during a climb. So I just leave it tied and clip the arms to the master biner for racking. It pays to dress the knots nice (for untie /adjusting, strength).

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/748/x2dr.jpg

Here's the max seperation:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8400/xfar8tq.jpg

And two pieces at the same height:

http://img124.imageshack.us/...24/4163/xsame8cq.jpg


Partner cracklover


Jun 7, 2006, 4:52 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Belayer (plus weight of fallen climber) now falls *six* feet onto the middle piece which is expected to hold the entire weight of the fall. See what I mean?

And that's assuming you anticipated such a thing happening. If you didn't anticipate it, and mistakenly set it up so the backup rope goes top->bottom->middle piece, and it's another two feet between the middle and the bottom piece, you now take nearly a factor two *ten* foot fall onto the bottom piece only. Not good.

GO

hmmm ... sounds bad. I do not understand this, sorry. Could I ask you to explain?

Sure. Easiest way to explain is to break this scenario into component parts. First, let's look at your unknotted cordelette alone. Here's a pic (sorry, I don't have your abilities with graphic art).

http://i5.tinypic.com/11wbvc0.jpg

So you've got three pieces in a vertical crack. Top one is three feet above middle one, which is two feet above bottom one. Pretty common scenario, right? Okay, well you've got your typical cordelette setup with a cross between bottom and middle piece. Top piece (the one with the red "x") blows. What happens? The cordelette from the top piece feeds all the way out through the power-point biner, and you get a fully extended cordelette attached to the middle piece - fully ten (or however many feet) long. That sounds awful, right? Thank god we've got that rope backing us up, right? Or do we?

Now let's just look at the rope setup. Here's a pic.

http://i6.tinypic.com/11wbx44.jpg

What happens when the top piece blows? You fall twice the distance from the top to the bottom piece (plus whatever slack you left in the system). Yikes! That's a 10+ foot fall! Still, let's hope the rope catches you before the cordelette does, since at least the rope can absorb a bunch of force!

Of course you can improve on this scenario. For example, if you can make sure that the crossed strand on the cordelette is exactly the right one, the cordelette will only extend two or three feet (creating a single crossed sling between the two remaining pieces). Still, that's a pretty long fall for the belayer to take directly onto the anchor. Similarly, if you set the backup rope to go to the bottom piece first, then the belayer would only fall the distance of the slack in that rope before impacting the bottom piece.

Not sounding quite so KISS anymore. None of the three anchors I mentioned have such easy ways to set them up "wrong". And I still don't like the belayer falling onto just one piece.

GO


sittingduck


Jun 7, 2006, 8:07 AM
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Thanks for the pictures Glowering. Yeah, I did get the sloppy x, was more curious to see a real anchor.

cracklover, in a vertical crack I think it would be better to tie powerpoint --> bottom piece --> middle piece --> top piece with the climbing rope, dont you think? Or do you still see the scenario you describe unfolding?

As for the cordalette, shure it would be completly useless alone, but it is not alone.

http://www.home.no/...ngduck/vertikalt.gif


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Jun 7, 2006, 12:39 PM
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In reply to:
cracklover, in a vertical crack I think it would be better to tie powerpoint --> bottom piece --> middle piece --> top piece with the climbing rope, dont you think?

Yup. I mentioned that.

GO


sittingduck


Jun 7, 2006, 1:58 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
cracklover, in a vertical crack I think it would be better to tie powerpoint --> bottom piece --> middle piece --> top piece with the climbing rope, dont you think?

Yup. I mentioned that.

GO

If any of the three pieces blows there will only be minimal extension, at least as far as I'm able to analyze it. Maybe you analyzed the setup not considering the climbing rope, or do you still think that it will shock load severely? I'm sorry that the illustrations are confusing. I'd rather have pictures like the ones you have.


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Jun 7, 2006, 4:25 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
cracklover, in a vertical crack I think it would be better to tie powerpoint --> bottom piece --> middle piece --> top piece with the climbing rope, dont you think?

Yup. I mentioned that.

GO

If any of the three pieces blows there will only be minimal extension, at least as far as I'm able to analyze it. Maybe you analyzed the setup not considering the climbing rope, or do you still think that it will shock load severely? I'm sorry that the illustrations are confusing. I'd rather have pictures like the ones you have.

In my post:

In reply to:
Similarly, if you set the backup rope to go to the bottom piece first, then the belayer would only fall the distance of the slack in that rope before impacting the bottom piece.

What I was illustrating was the potential for a disastrous scenario if you set up your anchor "wrong" - despite the fact that it still matches your setup.

That, plus I'm still dissatisfied with an anchor that provides no equalization if one piece pulls.

GO


sittingduck


Jun 7, 2006, 9:43 PM
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In reply to:
What I was illustrating was the potential for a disastrous scenario if you set up your anchor "wrong" - despite the fact that it still matches your setup.

That, plus I'm still dissatisfied with an anchor that provides no equalization if one piece pulls.

GO

Agreed, setting it up right is key.

Again, equalization has taken place up until one piece blows. All the pieces in the anchor has then absorbed as much force from the fall as it took the piece to blow. I can understand that you are unhappy with that.

By the way, what is your opinion on trusting your life on one single screwgate biner as you demonstrate in your favorite setups?


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In reply to:
Again, equalization has taken place up until one piece blows. All the pieces in the anchor has then absorbed as much force from the fall as it took the piece to blow. I can understand that you are unhappy with that.

Just to clarify - the pieces don't absorb any force. They withstand it, but the rope is doing the "absorbing". Though probably when a piece rips, there's still all that tension (which equals force) in the rope, so "absorb" is kind of a misleading term even for the rope.

In reply to:
By the way, what is your opinion on trusting your life on one single screwgate biner as you demonstrate in your favorite setups?

It varies depending on what's being required of the screwgate. In some situations, no way. But if you mean the single screwgate attatching my tie-in rope to the powerpoint on the anchor - yes, I'm fine with that. Fine with just a single rope attachment to the anchor, too.

GO


sittingduck


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[quote=cracklover]
Just to clarify - the pieces don't absorb any force. They withstand it, but the rope is doing the "absorbing". Though probably when a piece rips, there's still all that tension (which equals force) in the rope, so "absorb" is kind of a misleading term even for the rope.So if one piece blows the equalization had no effect? The system still have to withstand FF2 force?

In reply to:
By the way, what is your opinion on trusting your life on one single screwgate biner as you demonstrate in your favorite setups?

It varies depending on what's being required of the screwgate. In some situations, no way. But if you mean the single screwgate attaching my tie-in rope to the powerpoint on the anchor - yes, I'm fine with that. Fine with just a single rope attachment to the anchor, too.

GO
I think that we agree that a belay anchor should always be redundant, and that you think that the systems you show me is redundant? By this I can only conclude that your opinion is that a single screwgate biner is redundant as shown, correct? You also say that you are fine with using only one screwgate biner depending on the situation. I assume that you use two screwgates in situations like top rope anchors, not clipping into the top rope with a screwgate but tie in with a fig 8 or not attaching your hawl bags wit just one biner? Situations where the screwgate is in constant motion requires two sg biners, am I correct?

(EDITED, had to edit from one to two screwgates in the last part since I wrote it wrong)
EDITED ...again, sue me.


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In reply to:
So if one piece blows the equalization had no effect? The system still have to withstand FF2 force?

I don't know where your FF2 comes from, but if one piece blows, the current force transmitted through the rope will transition to whatever next holds the rope, which in your anchor will be one piece. The act of the piece ripping does essentially nothing to lower the force on the system.

In reply to:
I think that we agree that a belay anchor should always be redundant, and that you think that the systems you show me is redundant? By this I can only conclude that your opinion is that a single screwgate biner is redundant as shown, correct?

No, I don't think everything in each part of all the three anchors are redundant. For example, in the mooselette, if either of the outside pieces rip, everything's fine, but if either of the outside strands are cut, the whole anchor fails. Not a major concern to me where you see that anchor, under a roof. In the charlesjmm anchor you have full cutting-redundancy, but at the expense of slightly less perfect equalization, IME.

So in answer to your question - again, it depends.

In reply to:
You also say that you are fine with using only one screwgate biner depending on the situation. I assume that you use two screwgates in situations like top rope anchors, not clipping into the top rope with a screwgate but tie in with a fig 8 or not attaching your hawl bags wit just one biner? Situations where the screwgate is in constant motion requires two sg biners, am I correct?

I wouldn't put it that way, no. For example, my belay biner is holding a moving rope all the time, yet I'm comfortable using a single biner for that. OTOH, as you say - I would never use just one single biner in a slingshot TR setup. Mostly because it's out of sight and impossible to monitor. BTW, when I clip in to the power point of an anchor, I typically do so by clove hitching my rope to that biner. The tight clove hitch won't budge from the basket of the biner, so I'm not really concerned about it messing with the locking sleeve, or getting crossloaded.

GO


sittingduck


Jun 8, 2006, 12:49 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
So if one piece blows the equalization had no effect? The system still have to withstand FF2 force?

I don't know where your FF2 comes from, but if one piece blows, the current force transmitted through the rope will transition to whatever next holds the rope, which in your anchor will be one piece. The act of the piece ripping does essentially nothing to lower the force on the system.

1) What kind of downward pull do you get into your belay anchor if the leader fall before she has placed any pro?
1a) Do you get downward pull in the anchor in any other scenario?

My suggested answers:
1) FALL FACTOR TWO
1a) NO


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Jun 8, 2006, 1:02 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
So if one piece blows the equalization had no effect? The system still have to withstand FF2 force?

I don't know where your FF2 comes from, but if one piece blows, the current force transmitted through the rope will transition to whatever next holds the rope, which in your anchor will be one piece. The act of the piece ripping does essentially nothing to lower the force on the system.

1) What kind of downward pull do you get into your belay anchor if the leader fall before she has placed any pro?
1a) Do you get downward pull in the anchor in any other scenario?

My suggested answers:
1) FALL FACTOR TWO
1a) NO

1a - belaying the second, hanging belay, hauling, etc.

Sorry, not really sure of your point, though. If you're asking whether, if the anchor feels a factor 2 fall, and one piece rips - will the rest of the anchor still need to hold a factor 2 fall force, the answer is yes.

GO


sittingduck


Jun 8, 2006, 8:55 AM
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In reply to:
1a - belaying the second, hanging belay, hauling, etc.

You are right. Sorry, should have been clear about that. I am discussing how to best rig your anchor to prepare for a factor two fall when you are belaying the leader. I say that every time the leader falls from above the anchor with no pro between herself and the anchor, you got a factor two fall to deal with.

So I do not understand why you are saying:
In reply to:
I don't know where your FF2 comes from.

The only fall you'll ever get on your belay that pulls you down is going to be a factor two fall. Any other fall (pro placed between belay and anchor) will pull you upwards/sideways.

In reply to:
Sorry, not really sure of your point, though. If you're asking whether, if the anchor feels a factor 2 fall, and one piece rips - will the rest of the anchor still need to hold a factor 2 fall force, the answer is yes.


This I find difficult to understand, not saying you are wrong.
If one equalized piece blows at FF2 peak force then the individual pieces in the anchor has withstood 1/3 FF2 force? If what I am assuming is correct then the anchor will hold a FF2 fall if the weakest piece is a bit stronger than 1/3 of FF2 force?


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Jun 8, 2006, 1:14 PM
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Re: Trade belay anchor method up for discussion. [In reply to]
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This I find difficult to understand, not saying you are wrong.
If one equalized piece blows at FF2 peak force then the individual pieces in the anchor has withstood 1/3 FF2 force? If what I am assuming is correct then the anchor will hold a FF2 fall if the weakest piece is a bit stronger than 1/3 of FF2 force?

If your 3 piece anchor is perfectly equalized, and feels a ff2, then each piece will feel 1/3 of the force. Let's say you're at near the peak force of the fall. Let's say there's enough tension in the rope to put 9kN of force on the anchor. 3kN on each. Now any of the three pieces in your anchor fails. All of the tension in the rope - 9kN, now goes onto one piece. If that piece fails, then 9kN goes onto the one remaining piece.

Does that make sense to you?

GO


sittingduck


Jun 8, 2006, 2:34 PM
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Re: Trade belay anchor method up for discussion. [In reply to]
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Cracklover, yes it makes sense, but then again I dont understand the physics of it all. How do you know that the chain of events will be like this and how confident are you that what you describe do equal reality? Could you provide some sort of documentation?


Partner cracklover


Jun 8, 2006, 6:42 PM
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Re: Trade belay anchor method up for discussion. [In reply to]
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Cracklover, yes it makes sense, but then again I dont understand the physics of it all. How do you know that the chain of events will be like this and how confident are you that what you describe do equal reality? Could you provide some sort of documentation?

Sure. Documentation of what, exactly? That after one piece in your anchor fails, all the force goes onto just one piece? Documentation that the force felt by the anchor is proportional to the tension in the ropes pulling on the anchor? Not sure what you're looking for.

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sittingduck


Jun 8, 2006, 9:00 PM
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Re: Trade belay anchor method up for discussion. [In reply to]
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Documentation on all or some of it if possible, tests would be interesting. You say that the next single piece after perfect distribution must take FF2 force and if it blows the last one must do the same. I have your word for it but for me that's exactly that, your word and opinion. No offense, but I'd rather have second opinions and documentation on it.

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