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capn_morgan
Aug 22, 2006, 2:44 PM
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You guys should be appreciative that the OP took the time to pass that little tidbit of information on as they obviously felt it was important to share. Being as it is a new development in an ongoing list of problems what they did seems very reasonable. The location and information about the climber are irrelevant to what they posted. It is rather pathetic that this site has gotten to the point where no one believes anyone else unless they have "pictures" and "facts"....facts are often hard to come by soon after an accident like this and posting guesses and rumors doesn't help anyone. And whoever correlated post count to what someone can post should be smacked.
I hope that the next time the OP has some information like this they will again be kinda enough to share it and not decide to forgo the verbal abuse by a bunch of Internet wankers who think they are superior because they have 1000's of posts. Ever think that maybe the reason the OP only has 5 posts is they are too busy climbing to dick around here?
As for information, I'm only going to post what i know for sure. Ive heard a lot more but don't want to start any rumors.
The accident happened on Saturday, august 19th at Paradise Forks outside Williams, AZ.
The climber was on "the prow", some distance into the thin hands crack off of the large ledge.
He weighted a piece (the orange alien) a which came apart and he fell and hit the ledge below.
He sustained a massive head wound toward the top of his head. The people he was climbing with worked to quickly stop the bleeding and the witness that I talked to, who was a nurse, stated that there was obvious swelling/internal bleeding. He was not wearing a helmet and based on what I was told by the witness that was certainly a contributing factor to the severity of the injury.
I don't know any details on where he was taken or who he was. If you are concerned that you may know him pm me and I will tell you what I have heard.
If I hear anything about his condition I will post it.
Climb Safe.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Aug 22, 2006, 3:00 PM
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In reply to: You guys should be appreciative that the OP took the time to pass that little tidbit of information on as they obviously felt it was important to share. Being as it is a new development in an ongoing list of problems what they did seems very reasonable.
Nope, it's yet another example of a useless post on rc.com that does more harm than good. The OP is obligated to give enough info that it's at least slightly credible. He/she didn't do that. If they knew enough to sound the alarm, they knew enough to convince everyone it was legit.
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gunksgoer
Aug 22, 2006, 3:04 PM
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Does anyone remember when boadman said this in the thread about the first alien failure?
In reply to: After having worked at CCH for a summer, I would be a little leary of climbing on any aliens that I hadn't made myself. The holding power of the unit depends solely on the quality of the weld between the cable and the piece that holds the axle. Welding is more of an art than a science, and while David Waggoner is a very competent machinist and designer, a lot of his employees are pretty suspect. I would have more confidence in my redneck uncle Randy. However, the design of the cam (outside of the manufacturing) is by far the best of any small cam on the market.
He got totaly flamed for it at the time, but I think that right now he gets to say "I told you so". It seems like this has been the problem in all the alien accidents, and it is impossible to know how many cams are out there which could potentially have the same issue. I still climb above my aliens, but my opinion of cch as a company is not as high as it once was.
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csproul
Aug 22, 2006, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You guys should be appreciative that the OP took the time to pass that little tidbit of information on as they obviously felt it was important to share. Being as it is a new development in an ongoing list of problems what they did seems very reasonable. Nope, it's yet another example of a useless post on rc.com that does more harm than good. The OP is obligated to give enough info that it's at least slightly credible. He/she didn't do that. If they knew enough to sound the alarm, they knew enough to convince everyone it was legit.
What a load of BS. So you're saying that a company that has had products known to be defective has more credibility than a person trying to help others from possibly being injured. Look how long it took the last incident to be deemed "credible". If CCH had a stellar reputation it'd be one thing, but given their history, I certainly don't mind a potential false alarm if there is even a small possibility that this turns out to be true.
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zeke_sf
Aug 22, 2006, 3:23 PM
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so, what are we all racking for small active pro now? :lol:
I know I'm obligated to give more info., but it's hilariously obvious who is (was?) an Alien fan here.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Aug 22, 2006, 3:58 PM
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In reply to: What a load of BS. So you're saying that a company that has had products known to be defective has more credibility than a person trying to help others from possibly being injured. Look how long it took the last incident to be deemed "credible". If CCH had a stellar reputation it'd be one thing, but given their history, I certainly don't mind a potential false alarm if there is even a small possibility that this turns out to be true.
Makes no difference whatsoever what the brand is, the OP made a worthless post when they had the opportunity, and responsibility, to make it an informative one. It would have taken a couple more minutes to add sufficient detail to head off much of the rampant speculation. Anonymous posters have zero credibility.
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csproul
Aug 22, 2006, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What a load of BS. So you're saying that a company that has had products known to be defective has more credibility than a person trying to help others from possibly being injured. Look how long it took the last incident to be deemed "credible". If CCH had a stellar reputation it'd be one thing, but given their history, I certainly don't mind a potential false alarm if there is even a small possibility that this turns out to be true. Makes no difference whatsoever what the brand is, the OP made a worthless post when they had the opportunity, and responsibility, to make it an informative one. It would have taken a couple more minutes to add sufficient detail to head off much of the rampant speculation. Anonymous posters have zero credibility.
Well, I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. It makes a world of difference to me what the brand is. Some companies have earned my trust and others have lost it. I'll agree that details would be nice and if this is real they will come out. If it proves to not be real, then there is no harm to me. Every gear failure thread on this site I have seen so far started with a bunch of people telling the OP's it was a fake or that they had no credibility. The details always come out long after the threads were started and some turned out to be veryreal problems.
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jsj42
Aug 22, 2006, 4:17 PM
Post #34 of 194
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I'd like to have my Aliens reliably tested (ie NOT by CCH). Does anyone know where I can have this done? If so, how much does testing cost, what is turnaround like, and does testing weaken the cams/deform the lobes in any way? Thanks.
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crotch
Aug 22, 2006, 5:07 PM
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[quote:c7bd535d8b="jsj42"]I'd like to have my Aliens reliably tested (ie NOT by CCH). Does anyone know where I can have this done? If so, how much does testing cost, what is turnaround like, and does testing weaken the cams/deform the lobes in any way? Thanks.[/quote:c7bd535d8b]
Calling FISH. Russ, are you set up to pull test Aliens to 8KN?
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chanceboarder
Aug 22, 2006, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: I'd like to have my Aliens reliably tested (ie NOT by CCH). Does anyone know where I can have this done? If so, how much does testing cost, what is turnaround like, and does testing weaken the cams/deform the lobes in any way? Thanks.
Best wishes to the climber who was injured and hope you have a speedy recovery.
Jason
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azrockclimber
Aug 22, 2006, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: Thanks, Phil. I agree. Considering the low level of detail available at this point, it's useless to speculate. The first thing we need is a picture or first-hand discription of the cam, because right now, it's entirely possible that this is a straight-up case of user error. EDIT: That said, I can't help but agree, at least in principle, with this statement: In reply to: It's not like this guy didn't know about CCH's troubles. With all the publicity, it's come full circle. No longer is it about CCH liability as much as it is personal responsibility. The second I read CCH's infamous hoax statement, I decided on the spot that no Aliens would ever find a home on my rack. It was easy -- I was already leaning that way thanks to their denial of any safety issues arising from mis-drilled axle-holes. Even before this thread, I was of the opinion that faith in any single CCH cam that had not been tested goes beyond mere blindness and into the realm of the irrational, regardless of the date it was produced.
I did something similar. I get pro like this...all stoppers, cams( except aliens) and tricams I try to place safely first. If nothing else fits and I decided to carry an alien or two just in case....I slot it cause nothing else will fit ....and I figure it is better than nothing and possibly fine??? but who knows...So basically I use them as on "oh shit nothing else fits here...i have to use an alien..."
I was totally bummed about it but its not worth it to me. I love aliens, but I don't love em that much. It can probably be tracked to this or that but you can't tell me that when you are run-out ,above an alien, it won't cross your mind that serveral of these piceces have failed or have at least have people claiming that they have failed. I decided that I don't want anything crossing my mind other than the move infront of me.
It doesn't suck as bad for me as some people because I only have 6 aliens out of 35-40 cams so it just sucks for when I am jiggling a camalot to try and get it to fit where an alien would slide right in.
I just can't use them anymore... too bad for CCH. they are going down slowly. Climbing is all about confidence. And confidence in your gear is a big part. There are just too many things going wrong over there at CCH...whatever they are I chose not to be apart of it...
I certainly would never tell anyone else they are wrong for using them...its just my personal choice.
stay safe...
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jsj42
Aug 22, 2006, 5:54 PM
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azrockclimber, you took every last word right out of my mouth. That's exactly how I feel.
There was a day when I'd blitz easier climbs with just a rack of Aliens and wires -- so nice to have a rack as light as a bunch of quickdraws. Those days might be gone. Almost every time I launch up new territory I carry a full set of micro camalots and aliens through red -- I love the camalots but like to have slightly different pieces. But I found myself avoiding using the aliens if the camalots would fit...
I can't even remember the last time I placed my blue alien. Two years ago I bootied a purple TCU at the NRG. Since then I've placed that piece alone probably more than I've placed all my aliens combined.
I want to keep using them... I just am not quite sold on Zero's and Metolius has a few limitations that I don't like. But at this point I need to get them pull-tested before I can trust them. Even then the negative vibe I have for these cams feels like a cancer knawing away at my confidence. Man, I even find myself not trusting camalots because of this. I wish I never read these reports.
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capn_morgan
Aug 22, 2006, 7:18 PM
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There was a mention of the incident in the local paper...the full page is linked below.
"Rock climber injured
A 22-year-old Peoria man out rock climbing at Sycamore Falls in Sycamore Canyon south of Flagstaff was injured in a 20-foot fall Saturday afternoon.
According to information from the Coconino County Sheriff's Office, Search and Rescue crews found the victim had fallen onto a ledge after a piece of rock climbing equipment failed. Other climbers in the area conducted a rescue and raised the victim to the top of the cliff. He was transported by air ambulance to Flagstaff Medical Center. His condition is listed as serious.
SAR members would like to remind climbers to wear helmets and inspect their equipment before and after each use."
http://www.azdailysun.com/...22_police_log_34.txt
If you want pictures of the cam maybe can call Coconino County Sherriffs Office and request one.
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nnowinowski
Aug 22, 2006, 7:20 PM
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did you get that piece off regata de blank at bubba? Congrats if you did.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Aug 22, 2006, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: I was totally bummed about it but its not worth it to me. I love aliens, but I don't love em that much. It can probably be tracked to this or that but you can't tell me that when you are run-out ,above an alien, it won't cross your mind that serveral of these piceces have failed or have at least have people claiming that they have failed. I decided that I don't want anything crossing my mind other than the move infront of me.
The irony is that a LOT more carabiners have failed in recent years than Aliens, yet most climbers don't give it a second thought to run out a route where a broken biner means decking. Nor do most climbers even consider open gate strength when buying biners. Personally, I don't trust a Zero/C3/TCU/whatever any more than Aliens -- all small cams are suspect since there is so little room for error.
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csproul
Aug 22, 2006, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I was totally bummed about it but its not worth it to me. I love aliens, but I don't love em that much. It can probably be tracked to this or that but you can't tell me that when you are run-out ,above an alien, it won't cross your mind that serveral of these piceces have failed or have at least have people claiming that they have failed. I decided that I don't want anything crossing my mind other than the move infront of me. The irony is that a LOT more carabiners have failed in recent years than Aliens, yet most climbers don't give it a second thought to run out a route where a broken biner means decking. Nor do most climbers even consider open gate strength when buying biners. Personally, I don't trust a Zero/C3/TCU/whatever any more than Aliens -- all small cams are suspect since there is so little room for error. |
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billcoe_
Aug 22, 2006, 8:14 PM
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I'd like to thank the guys who brought this to everybodys attention. However, the open forum format and easy posting availability allows any CCH competitor or ex-employeee with an axe to grind the opprotunity to lie and make up just about anything they want.
Just saying the name of the climb, date, and identifying a few salient points gives your Paul Revere warning some truth and bite. Otherwise, it could just be some nameless schmo lying his ass off for any reason.
The stakes are real high, and although we don't want to believe anyone would yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, or "Wolf" when there is none, it unfortunatly happens....all the time....this being the internet and all.
I'm sure everyone here would say they find both outcomes equally distrubing, (Wolf or, in fact a real Alien failure) but would prefer that the truth come out soon, possibly saving a life or 2.
Can we, as a group, try to press some regular company into service to pull test aliens we already own? They make a buck and we get a service.
Regards to all, but especially to Paul Revere there.
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tgreene
Aug 22, 2006, 8:18 PM
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Whatever happened to the credo of backing up small gear..?
2 weeks ago, 3 of us were climbing at Sam's Throne for the weekend... On my last lead on Sunday (before heading home), I was leading a route that ate small gear, and nothing but small gear. All of a sudden I hear one of my partners start to laugh and point out that I had already placed placed 9 cams in the first 40' of a 50' route... I corrected him by telling him that there were 2 more micros that he couldn't see, and that I fully intended to place at least 2 more to top out.
The gear I plugged was 85% Aliens, 2 grey & 1 green Zero, and my .25 & .50 RE Durangos... I think there was even a BallNut or 2 in there somewhere.
The route was heavily sewn up because just the day before, I backed off a lead early on, and sketched on another one later in the day. Even though my confidence levels were way down and I was feeling dehydrated and pannicky, I know to always backup the small gear! :idea:
FWIW: In regards to this accident being a 20-footer onto a ledge, that shit should have been seriously backed up to prevent such a catastrophy... Any gear being placed in that spot should be backed up, just to prevent the possibility of such a fall taking place. I know firsthand, because I took a 20-footer on a #4 Nut on December 26th (Nut was backed up and redirected from a very small tree), and it too involved a nasty ledge which I bounced off of! :(
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jt512
Aug 22, 2006, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I was totally bummed about it but its not worth it to me. I love aliens, but I don't love em that much. It can probably be tracked to this or that but you can't tell me that when you are run-out ,above an alien, it won't cross your mind that serveral of these piceces have failed or have at least have people claiming that they have failed. I decided that I don't want anything crossing my mind other than the move infront of me. The irony is that a LOT more carabiners have failed in recent years than Aliens, yet most climbers don't give it a second thought to run out a route where a broken biner means decking. Nor do most climbers even consider open gate strength when buying biners. Personally, I don't trust a Zero/C3/TCU/whatever any more than Aliens -- all small cams are suspect since there is so little room for error. If you're correct about there being a greater number of carabiners breaking then I'd agree with this. But open strength ratings are still lower strengths in a situation that is not intended to happen. The carabiner is still operating as advertised. A cam coming apart under normal usage is not. There is a HUGE difference from a small cam pulling out of a suspect placement and the head pulling off of a cam that otherwise would have held. And I really don't consider anything larger than the green Alien to be a "small" cam.
In other words, Roy, as usual, you are wrong about just about everything you post.
Jay
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jt512
Aug 22, 2006, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: Whatever happened to the credo of backing up small gear..?
Whatever happened to the credo of not producing gear that falls apart under body weight. An orange Alien isn't small gear anyway. It's a medium sized cam that you should be able to trust implicitly.
Jay
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ckirkwood9
Aug 22, 2006, 8:34 PM
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"trust implicitly" is going to start i flame war... i can see it.
prepare yourselves ladies and gentlemen.
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billcoe_
Aug 22, 2006, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: FWIW: In regards to this accident being a 20-footer onto a ledge, that s--- should have been seriously backed up to prevent such a catastrophy... Any gear being placed in that spot should be backed up, just to prevent the possibility of such a fall taking place. I know firsthand, because I took a 20-footer on a #4 Nut on December 26th ( Nut was backed up and redirected from a very small tree), and it too involved a nasty ledge which I bounced off of! :(
Trophy and good points Tgreene, but somethimes you only get that 1 piece between you and the deck. Sometimes it happens.
Were you working with CCH earlier? How did that resolve for you? Have you any factory communication on this one?
Regards:
Bill
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jt512
Aug 22, 2006, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: "trust implicitly" is going to start i flame war... i can see it. prepare yourselves ladies and gentlemen.
OK, let me rephrase that. You should be able to implicitly trust a well-placed medium cam in good rock.
Jay
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