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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 7:18 PM
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Majid, the point of asking how many certified instructors would be along on the trip is that with a group of students THAT young, there should be ideally at least one qualified adult climber who knew what they were doing per two or a the most three students in order to supervise the belays and the climbing and to keep an eye on the kids who weren't actively on rope in some manner, as well as to assist with gear management. It wasn't a statement about secondary instructors qualifications to BE instructors.
God Bless,
mik
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jt512
Sep 13, 2007, 7:41 PM
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mikitta wrote: It all depends on the personality, capabilities and maturity of the individual child - and on their adult mentor...
I think that that is exactly correct, and it argues against teaching lead climbing to young kids in a group setting. Chris Lindner led trad 5.10a, placing his own protection, at age 4, and led 5.12a sport at age 6; but he was an exceptional kid in an exceptional situation, having two parents who were practically full-time climbers. So, with the right kid and the right mentor, this can be done; but it's not something for the average kid in a group setting.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 14, 2007, 12:56 AM)
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Myxomatosis
Sep 13, 2007, 9:45 PM
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I was recently at the gym watching a 10 year old girl get pushed (by her father by thats another thread) to lead climb a 5.10b on quite a major overhanging wall. She started freaking out while trying to clip the 3rd clip (say 15m's up).
The panic started to set in and she began to cry and then slipped off (poor foot work in the confusion) and took a major fall (bigger than I have ever done). Like someone said above, her upper body fell faster than her legs (nearly looked like she was about to fall out of her harness) and when the rope caught her it jerked her hard.
I'm not saying don't let them lead but I wouldn't push them into it. Just let them top rope on an easy wall to begin with... then if they are still feel up to leading... get them to top rope on a harder climb  .
I wouldn't rush little kid's, they are to young to control their emotions like the little girl above, once they start to panic its hard to calm them down.
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mikitta
Sep 13, 2007, 10:07 PM
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All too true - sad to hear that the same parent competitiveness is inserting itself into a sport that is supposed to be all about beating one's self imposed limitations rather than besting someone else. I hope the little girl is ok now - though she will never forget this and it may well turn her off to climbing for good.
God Bless,
mik
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Myxomatosis
Sep 13, 2007, 11:13 PM
Post #30 of 69
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mikitta wrote: All too true - sad to hear that the same parent competitiveness is inserting itself into a sport that is supposed to be all about beating one's self imposed limitations rather than besting someone else. I hope the little girl is ok now - though she will never forget this and it may well turn her off to climbing for good. God Bless, mik
Oh... Forgot to add she was OK, I think she hit her knee on the wall and she was limping a little but walked it off. It definitely left an impression on her, she took her harness off and just started bouldering for the rest of the night. The family was Italian so I couldnt understand what they were saying but by the tone, Id say it was the father was pushing her 
Her mum was also watching her and even if she was keen to give it a try, perhaps the father should have stepped in and told her to try something a little easier... Fun first, death second... hahaha 
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wiki
Sep 13, 2007, 11:55 PM
Post #31 of 69
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First of all, thank you all for your help and opinions!
jakedatc wrote: how many kids... how many adult, certified instructors? I do not think you will have enough qualified people to do this safely. Outdoors is not the first time to be teaching people how to lead.
We will have 2, possibly 3 qualified instructors (one of which is me). I have been teaching toprope and lead climbing outdoors for 4 years now just never outdoor lead climbing with kids this young.
I suppose the best way is to play it by ear - it won't be any hassle to start them on toproping and it is super-easy for an instructor to sit at the top of the crag and help them top-out when they are leading (you can just walk round the back )
There will also be 2 assistant instructors (in training for their quals) so the ratio will be 1 instructor per 3 kids
Helmets are a definite with a group of course.
In reply to: You should get a small pocket size calendar book and log your teaching activity and document how many students you have and what you teach as detail as possible. In event that sh8T hits the fan, that log book could save your as* in court of law.
Good idea! I have a log book for all the other instructing I've done but I haven't kept one for the class... thanks!
I may just take all the quickdraws off one wall in the gym so they can practice clipping the bolts too.
In the end, it won't kill them if they just top-rope for the weekend will it?
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wiki
Sep 14, 2007, 12:02 AM
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In reply to: IMO, if a kid can't write or read the words "clove hitch", then maybe leading should wait a while.
umm... its scary but most of them can't read or write "clove hitch" but they can tie one,, dress it, tell you what it is for and the pros and cons of using one.
a slightly frightening bunch of kids - they go out and learn half this stuff in their own time too!
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jgloporto
Sep 14, 2007, 12:48 AM
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wiki wrote: In reply to: IMO, if a kid can't write or read the words "clove hitch", then maybe leading should wait a while. umm... its scary but most of them can't read or write "clove hitch" but they can tie one,, dress it, tell you what it is for and the pros and cons of using one. a slightly frightening bunch of kids - they go out and learn half this stuff in their own time too!
In that case, I suggest skipping sport leading and proceeding directly to hard aid. Be sure to post up some pics of the six year olds racked with 200 biners and three racks of gear hooking their way up a 60 foot runout.
That would be awesome.
I got a couple of drinks in me right now and I can't stop laughing at the thought of that.
Oh man, I crack myself up.
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rocknice2
Sep 14, 2007, 12:53 AM
Post #34 of 69
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I have two friends that both have young daughters and what they did was find a little cliff that nobody would climb on. Basically a 5.easy low angle with many holds and only 10 meters high. They took their drills and bolted the crap out of it. Four line with bolts every 1.5 meters. That's proportionately just right for the size of the little kids.
Remember a safe outdoor sport route will leave your kids clipping bolts at 2 body lengths.
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clymbrchk
Sep 14, 2007, 1:21 AM
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My son and I started climbing when he was about 5. When he was somewhere near 7 or 8, he started asking about leading. Not being one to "technically" say no, I suggested that his first lead be on a loose TR. There was some back and forth, but he ultimately agreed.
And then, somewhere between the first and second bolt, he decided that he wanted to drop the lead duty and just TR. Again, there was some back and forth, but I haven't heard anything about leading since.
Granted, this is MY child, not someone else's, and I know my son well enough to know that he's simply not ready for the responsibility of leading. I'm also tuned into him enough to know that the feeling of getting above a bolt would be infinitely more convincing to him than anything that I could possibly mutter.
I was also with another adult who could help with the additional belay, and the draws were pre-clipped to the bolts to reduce the complexity. Before this little adventure, he was already cleaning gear, tying his own knots, and practicing gear placements on the ground.
Leading is a whole other kettle of fish, and I think adult mentors can do a great job of role modeling for kids in demonstrating an appreciation for the dangers/complexities involved.
If a kid is really ready, then great - but there is a marked difference between enthusiasm and readiness.
Just my gumbie .02.
(This post was edited by clymbrchk on Sep 14, 2007, 1:24 AM)
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fitzontherocks
Sep 14, 2007, 2:03 AM
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The Italians don't think it's too young, and they're decent climbers. Check the "Baby Arrampicata" section here:
http://www.traversella.net/home.html
Caveat: Obviously they have a "settore" specially outfitted for kids, with bolts 3-5' apart.
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swede
Sep 14, 2007, 9:33 AM
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They will be just as happy to learn more about other things - even about something else than climbing. The only one to whom climbing is really important is most probably only yourself.
There are reasons kids are not allowed to drive, vote, own firearms etc. Their brain is not fully developed. I don´t remember the age Dr Phil talks about, but it is something like 20-25 years.
One thing is for sure - the full understanding that death is something that can happen to you is something that comes relatively late in life.
The kids can tell you all the pros and cons with the clove hitch, but do they UNDERSTAND? A parrot can also learn to tell you the pros and cons....
Waivers, logbooks, certified instructurs might get you off the hook legally, but isn´t it much more important that some kid is still alive/unhurt?
I really does not deserve to be able to write this letter - I did too many stupied things climbing when I was that age. One of my climber friends lost a class mate just because he played close to a crag (NOT climbing).
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pro_alien
Sep 14, 2007, 11:02 AM
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Something I witnessed at the gym -
A young girl - maybe 10 years - just soloes up an easy slab route. I guess she was bored being stuck with her younger brother. Probably she did some outdoor climbing before. Fearless.
I didn't say anything while she was up, didn't want to jinx it... I did ask her to tie in next time once she was down safely.
6 years may be a wee bit young, but with good supervision leading a well bolted sport route does not seem outlandish. An adult should test the route before, make sure it is possible for a kid to safely clip etc. Ideal would be to have an big'un at the top to help with the transition to lowering.
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wiki
Sep 14, 2007, 11:37 AM
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pro_alien wrote: 6 years may be a wee bit young, but with good supervision leading a well bolted sport route does not seem outlandish. An adult should test the route before, make sure it is possible for a kid to safely clip etc. Ideal would be to have an big'un at the top to help with the transition to lowering.
Hmm this is what I am veering towards at the moment - with good supervision - I am the leader and if I have any doubts at any moment, it will be back to toproping.
Don't get me wrong - I am taking all advice on board - it is helping me get an idea of what to look out for and be careful of with kids! I would not even consider this if there wasn't an excellent instructor:child ratio, appropriate bolting (which there is - this is the most ridiculously over-bolted crag ever ! (I can aid it on bolts only)) and most of all, a fun safe environment (limited exposure, good access etc...).
Believe me, I don't want any kids to get hurt/killed or even be put off climbing.
Thanks for your advice and opinions - I find them really valuable!
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freedan
Sep 14, 2007, 12:09 PM
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You should read a little on developmental pyschology. A 6 year old may be physically able to lead climb and may do just fine on a straightforward route with no complications but they do not have the cognitive ability to problem solve when things get tough. If something happens and it went to court, I'm sure developmental pysch and what a child of that age is capable of mentally would be an issue. Shouldn't someone who lead climbs be able to be responsible for themselves, their safety, and understand the ramifications of their decisions (ie. do I run it out to a good placement and risk decking or do I go with a marginal placement and risk it failing and decking)? A 6 year old does not understand risk assessment and how to mitigate risks. I've never met a 6 year old who can conciously suppress the fear response and keep a level head once that button is pushed. A climber should understand and be responsible for their own actions.
Cool that your are teaching kids to climb though, just another consideration
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wiki
Sep 14, 2007, 12:25 PM
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freedan wrote: You should read a little on developmental pyschology. A 6 year old may be physically able to lead climb and may do just fine on a straightforward route with no complications but they do not have the cognitive ability to problem solve when things get tough. If something happens and it went to court, I'm sure developmental pysch and what a child of that age is capable of mentally would be an issue. Shouldn't someone who lead climbs be able to be responsible for themselves, their safety, and understand the ramifications of their decisions (ie. do I run it out to a good placement and risk decking or do I go with a marginal placement and risk it failing and decking)? A 6 year old does not understand risk assessment and how to mitigate risks. I've never met a 6 year old who can conciously suppress the fear response and keep a level head once that button is pushed. A climber should understand and be responsible for their own actions. Cool that your are teaching kids to climb though, just another consideration
Thank you! Another thing to take into account! The great thing is though, they aren't going to have to make decisions for themselves on this trip because we are going to be watching very closely (especially after posting on rc.com!). The kids probably won't be aware of it but it will be out of their hands - I am lucky to have amazingly competent instructors under me who can take action in less than a second to prevent things from going wrong. They are really on to it and have the experience to recognize things before they happen.
Of course there will always be the wild-card (as with everything) but I am more and more convinced that the risk can be carefully managed!
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pornstarr
Sep 14, 2007, 12:50 PM
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set up TR and let them just fake it (mock lead).
otherwise, bad idea........not having seen said phenoms ;).
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 14, 2007, 2:06 PM
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Kids this young should not be leading, period. There are reasons that gyms have age limits as does USA climbing. Sure, once in a while a young phenom comes along, as jay mentioned, but when you are in charge of OTHER PEOPLE"S children, you have to make rules that all of them will fall under. Generally speaking, kids this age tend to fall into 2 categories; fearless and fearful. They do not have a mature understanding of just what can happen if they screw up. The fearless tend to do things without thinking about them, like climb up a fifty foot tree not thinking about how to get down. The fearful are scared at the start of things they make up ion there head, sometimes that don't make any sense to an adult.
Children at 6 and 7 are just starting to gain physical skills to compete or perform athletic skills. These develop way before mental skills such as risk assessment. IMO, you are asking for trouble. Just the fact that you are asking on the internet tells me that you are not confident in your own judgement of this situation.
Josh
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cracklover
Sep 14, 2007, 2:18 PM
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wiki wrote: The great thing is though, they aren't going to have to make decisions for themselves on this trip because we are going to be watching very closely (especially after posting on rc.com!). The kids probably won't be aware of it but it will be out of their hands - I am lucky to have amazingly competent instructors under me who can take action in less than a second to prevent things from going wrong. They are really on to it and have the experience to recognize things before they happen.
You obviously knew what you wanted to hear and had made up your mind before you posted. But it's a terrible idea. You understand what the "lead" in "lead climbing" stands for, right? It stands for "leader". Whether you realize it or not, you're asking 6 year olds to make life and death leadership decisions. You say you've got folks who can jump in within a second to fix an issue that comes up. That's a lie. Once you're up on the wall leading, you are the leader, and you're responsible for your safety. Only way to help you out at that point is to set up a rescue scenario, and if you think you can do that in one second, you're delusional.
How long does it take a six year old to free-fall fifty feet to the deck? Same amount as an adult.
You do this, and you will have documented your stupidity online for the world (and the courts) to see.
Good luck!
GO
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angry
Sep 14, 2007, 2:38 PM
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Yeah, GO is right. Don't let a 6 year old lead.
I had 40 of them a year for the last several years. I know 6 year olds. That's 120 total 6 year olds that have come into my gym. Every one of them I got to know as a person, strengths, weaknesses, maturity level.
Of that group, there was exactly one who would understand the ramifications of a lead. One!!! When tested his IQ was something like 2 standard deviations above the norm. Get it, he was smarter than pretty much... the whole country. Still, he was a little kid.
This is a horrible idea. 10 year olds leading in a gym or closely bolted sport routes, OK, 6 year olds leading anything. Have you ever heard of the term Developmentally Appropriate? Look it up.
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whoa
Sep 14, 2007, 3:02 PM
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at least they'll die doing something you love.
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lhwang
Sep 14, 2007, 3:04 PM
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freedan wrote: You should read a little on developmental pyschology. A 6 year old may be physically able to lead climb and may do just fine on a straightforward route with no complications but they do not have the cognitive ability to problem solve when things get tough.
I think this is a good point. A kid is not a little adult.
Other posters have pointed out situations where very young children were leading, but I imagine that's probably the exception rather than the rule. I see plenty of 6-year olds who still have trouble tying their shoes!
When I lead climb, I know that there is a chance I could get hurt and I accept that risk. I'm not sure a 6-year old would be able to understand that risk... essentially an issue of informed consent, in my mind.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 14, 2007, 3:33 PM
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lhwang wrote: ... A kid is not a little adult.
Bingo!
In reply to: I'm not sure a 6-year old would be able to understand that risk... essentially an issue of informed consent, in my mind.
A child cannot legally accept the risk, which is why a parent must sign a waiver. I cannot imagine any parent accepting that risk for their 6 year old unless they haven't a clue about what they are getting into.
Josh
Josh
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clee03m
Sep 14, 2007, 7:47 PM
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I also think that legally, you wouldn't be able to defend yourself no matter what waver parents signed. 12 juries (I'm assuming you are in the states) + little 6 year old Joe hurt = you are toast. Angry parents (even if they signed a waver--if their little one is hurt, they are going to be angry) may decide to be vindictive and go after your personal asset. And how about your insurance--do they know you plan on taking 6 year olds out for a lead sport climb? If opinion is so divided among climbers, there is no way the general public would be understanding or forgiving. It is not worth it.
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