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jmlangford
Nov 25, 2002, 4:11 AM
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When I solo top rope, I just tie in to one end and as I climb the weight of the rope on the other end keeps the rope relatively slack free. If I fall, I just reach over and grabe the other side of the rope real quick and belay myself.
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timpanogos
Nov 25, 2002, 4:42 AM
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Jody, too funny - at least with your method, someone's gona inherit an undamaged rope – save the 2’ the paramedics are going to cut off of your harness.
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jmlangford
Nov 25, 2002, 4:58 AM
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Actually, I use a Petzl Shunt for top rope soloing:
however, I won't describe the way I use it, I'll just keep that to myself!
BTW, in a above post, someone mentioning 10' and longer falls. How is that possible on top rope soloing?
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-11-24 20:59 ]
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billcoe_
Nov 25, 2002, 5:16 AM
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So cal:
You asked for advice before and ignored it. Now you come back with this: "Ultimately I have reached a system I am very confident in and have rigorously tested."
"This system has worked great for me"
OK..........
"Climb at your own risk but my personal experience is that it's a great way to solo ascend."
OK.........But remember, you are the only one who thinks this way So Cal.
"Lastly, I have experimented with other ascenders and for simplicity and superior performance I have chosen the tiblocs."
Uhhh, well you don't detail it. I have a soloist and an silent partner, as I mentioned earlier, I have used a jumar to solo 5.11 TR. Have you tried those?
Hmmm......OK.........
Dude, notice you are not asking for anybodys opinion in your post.
So I will not give you mine.
I only say: good by.
Bill
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sushislayer
Nov 25, 2002, 5:18 AM
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"1) using 2 ascenders rather than one reduces the strain on the rope in more than half. "
I'm no physics expert but I would think this statement would only apply in the extrodinarily remote possibility of both Tiblocs grabbing with the same amount of force at the same moment.
Dude, you already spent $40.00 on the Tiblocs, you are almost half way to a Wren Soloist. I say take the Tibs back and come up with the extra $60.00 and get one.
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dashingleech
Nov 25, 2002, 5:20 AM
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Well, this system does sound significantly safer than the original. (Note that this does not mean safe, just safer.)
1. It includes redundancy.
2. If the slack is equal on both sides, the forces on any one tibloc/rope is reduced by half over the original system.
3. If the slack isn't equal and one rope does break, it will absorb most of the fall energy leaving only a little left for the other.
4. The stastical odds of both sides failing at the same time is multiplicative. That is, if there was a 1/10 chance of the original system failing (with one rope), then the odds with two ropes is 1/100. Note that this doesn't take into account the lower forces as mentioned above, which lowers the odds even more.
However, having said all of that, I don't think anybody can say this system is safe because it hasn't been thoroughly tested under a proper set of conditions. On the other hand, nobody can really say it is unsafe either for the same reason, despite the number of "armchair experts". (Even Petzl apparently hasn't tested it for this application, so they can't really say.) It's true that the tibloc isn't designed for this application, but that doesn't inherently mean it is unsafe, just unknown.
Given that its safety isn't clear I certainly wouldn't use it, especially since their are alternatives that have been thoroughly tested and designed for this purpose. It's better to err on the side of caution. All I can say is be careful. Be sure to test it thoroughly under extreme (worst case) conditions and with a weight greater than yours.
I'm wondering if anybody knows if the Wild Country SRC is approvded for this sort of application since they are locking belays? What about the same system as Socal's, but with two SRCs instead, or one SRC and tie into the second rope every ~15 feet? A Gri Gri take a lot of effort to pull through, but the SRC seems much easier, and unlike a Petzl Basic, the SRC is designed for belaying. Any opinions/references?
[ This Message was edited by: dashingleech on 2002-11-24 21:24 ]
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billcoe_
Nov 25, 2002, 5:23 AM
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I agree with sushi slayer:
Although perhaps we can take up a collection. Be cheaper than a funeral IMO.
In fact, why not just double your rope, tie it off, tie a figure 8 every 6 feet to clip into. Rap a single line and clip the 8's as you climb past? Be cheaper than Triblocs?
BTW: I do not use jumars any more, as I detailed earlier.
so all thats left is: good by.
Bill
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cass
Nov 25, 2002, 10:49 AM
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u at it again socal
I know some lawyers who could give u a good deal on making a Will
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moondog
Nov 25, 2002, 5:05 PM
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Various people wrote:
(regarding ASCENSION testing published in petzl tech notice):
8mm rope – it will break/cut it in half at 4.2kn 10.5mm rope, “safety, risk limited to damage to the rope sheath†which occurs at 4.7kn.
note this testing was done on a single dynamic rope (one rope) with a fall factor of 1.
If nothing else, look into the Petzl Croll (it is a Petzl Basic ascender made for cavers) and buy yourself a $12.00 Torse (shoulder strap), which ties into the Croll. This system will auto feed like your tibloc system (if you weight the bottom of the line slightly). The croll has the same specifications mentioned above – which means – in an absolute worse case fall, on a 10.5mm rope, Petzl has found the rope will not break, but you might ruin the rope. (Backup knots are still required for the safe climber).
The croll is not generally recommended as a toprope solo device. the basic is recommended b/c the rope is completely trapped in the ascender frame by the attachment carabiner. see technical notice at http://petzl.devcross.com/pdf/B18.pdf for more details. the croll will work as a TRSB, but is only recommended for very easy, low-angle terrain, as is commonly climbed in caves (note the self-belay drawing in the croll tech notice [http://petzl.devcross.com/pdf/B18.pdf] depicts a caver, not a climber).
Or, how about finding an approved self belay device, that will not even have the possiblity of ruining your rope.
best advice yet, though I wouldn't go so far as to say it's impossible to ruin your rope with one. the troll rocker is the thing to get, IMO, but only for TR, and always use a backup rope.
Two improtant things to conisder.
1) using 2 ascenders rather than one reduces the strain on the rope in more than half.
as others have pointed out, it is very unlikely both tiblocs would grab simultaneously - I wouldn't make this assumption.
2) Tiblocs dont wear the inside of the rope like most other non toothed ascenders. Thus if wear exists it is on the outside of the rope where you can see it.
i haven't heard that non-toothed ascenders wear the inside of the rope. if you have any data or reports on this, i would like very much to hear about it.
3) At this point, if you think that you can end up hurt by using two tiblocs your an idiot. It is highly improbable that one would fail but impossible for both to fail at the same time.
You can always get hurt no matter what system is used. Safety lies in constant vigilance and the willingness to learn/accept new information. don't assume that any device or system guarantees safety - they don't. the best anyone can count on for continued living is one's own intelligence and judgment.
Tiblocs are not an approved device for this kind of use. DO NOT USE TIBLOCS IN THE MANNER DESCRIBED.
I agree 100% with this, but do not in any way fault socal for trying it out. There can be great value in reasonable experimentation - it's how new techniques are developed. The only thing I would ask - as others have - is that he post a disclaimer for newbies. Y'know -"professional driver, closed course, do not attempt" or the like.
Unless you positively engage the tiblocs with a thumb on them with each stride upward, you are risking shredding the rope
True.
In addition, any shock load on the Tibloc, that is any load other then body weight, will break the puny device.
Untrue. The rated braking strength of the tibloc is 12 kN - far more than body weight. However, rope damage is a real concern!
hank
> opinion expressed in this post is mine, not Petzl's [
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jhump
Nov 25, 2002, 5:24 PM
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Even if the two Tiblocs engage simultaneously, this is not safe. Two fat 10.5 mm ropes have a huge impact force. This is the same reason many climbers avoid two 8mm twin ropes. Sure two fat ropes are harder to cut, but the impact force is off the chart. Such a high impact force makes it easier to reach the kn rating where rope damage occurs.
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climbsomething
Nov 25, 2002, 5:50 PM
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Good god... it never ends...
Dude. If you can't find or don't want a partner just go bo(u)ldering.
Whatever you do, take care not to bleed on your Spires...
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bwnco
Nov 25, 2002, 6:11 PM
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Is there any reason you just dont use a wren soloist?
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bradhill
Nov 25, 2002, 6:20 PM
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The kern (sheath) of your rope is not rated or meant to be load bearing. It is meant as a protective covering for the mantle (core) of the rope. It will almost always be strong enough to hold bodyweight, but THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES. Ropes are NOT TESTED AT ALL for kern strength. Two ropes with the same rated breaking strength may have very different kern strengths. It will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. It will vary from rope to rope. (bigwall high-abrasion ropes vs. lightweight alpine ropes) It will vary from single to double pic design.
If you fall on a toothed ascender that only grips the sheath of the rope, you are taking your life in your hands.
If you choose to top rope solo with a toothed ascender, it is safe only as long as you leave no slack in the system at any point. Purposefully taking ten foot falls on such a system is stupid as hell.
I'd also tend to use a beefier big-wall type rope with a double-pic construction for this kind of system. When you look at a rope, a double pic will show a pattern of squares in the weave, a single pic will show a herringbone pattern of rectangles.
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drector
Nov 25, 2002, 7:32 PM
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I couldn't stay out of this one. It's too damn interesting
I have 2 tiblocs. When I first tried ascending with them, I did catch the sheath on the top points of the device in a way that would destroy my rope. I was trying to ascend without doing the recommended "hold the device so that you squeeze the bottom of the tibloc to the rope." I did this to see how easy it could damage the rope and it does!
Petzl has specifically said in many places including letters to climbing magazines that the tibloc is not designed to auto-catch. It must be used with a hand holding it.
Using two ropes in a twin (Do I have that right?) configuration is not a recommended use of ropes. At the minimum, you are doubling the force applied to the anchor.
So why the h#$@ is it necessary to come up with a solo technique that uses most of the equipment in a way that is not recommended by anyone? Soloing is dangerous enough because your alone. All I can say is don't do this at my local crag. When you deck, I'm not gonna give CPR or even a splinting. Maybe a good laugh.
Dave
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wlderdude
Nov 25, 2002, 9:18 PM
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I have to agree with you, socal, there are alot of idiots who are posting rather idiotic comments.
And most of the posters are right about socal being an idiot.
First of all, the teeth of an asceder do not hold the weight of a fall or even body weight. If you have been so foolish as to use an ascender without understanding how and why it works, please find a safer hobby.
All ascenders that I am aware of (except the Shunt) work with a camming mechanism, similar in concept to camming devices like friends that are used as protection. Camming mechanisms rely on friction to pull the camming mechanism inward. In the case of friends, the friction of the aluminum on the rock is sufficent for the device to cam without slipping. In the case of a nylon rope on aluminum, it is not. The teeth on the ascender keep the rope from slipping across the camming mechanism.
I am not shure how Ushba manages a teeth free ascender, but I know it invloves 2 independent cams. The Shunt opperates on a slightly different principle and does not lock off nearly as securly. I wouldn't recomend it for self belay. Petzl says it can be used, but that the Basic (whith all its pointy teeth) is much safer.
In the event of a serious fall, the teeth may damage the sheath, but will not damage the core of the rope any worse than an ascender without teeth. Learn a little vector algebra and learn how a force on a cam puts several times that force outward. So, a fall of maybe 10 kN will put something like 30 kN of force inward on the rope. THAT will cut your rope, not the teeth that glide easily in between the nearly microscopic fibers of the core.
You are NOT stupid for using a toothed ascnender.
You ARE stupid for using an ascender that requires that it be set before it locks off.
When the mechanism is housed inside an ascender, nothing you do external to it will keep it from locking off. That is another reason the Shunt is a pretty lousy belay device.
All it takes is the device getting snaged on anything and you are off belay.
Another problem with not having your cam housed in a device that feeds the rope in straight if it becomes inverted, IT WON'T CATCH YOU! To demonstrate, take a cam (friend) and place it in a crack. Pull out on it and notice how it won't come out. Now push it up and notice how easily it slides upwards. THAT IS HOW MUCH RESISTANCE YOU WILL HAVE IN AN INVERTED FALL!
All it takes is to have a handhold blow and your feet stick and you are falling upside down, even on low angle climbs.
Don't be stupid. Having two devices that won't catch you is not any better than having none.
Edit: to clear up my comment about the Shunt.
[ This Message was edited by: wlderdude on 2002-11-26 13:54 ]
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jt512
Nov 26, 2002, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
So far, the single tibloc method works great on 20+ solo climbs and the double tibloc method worked equally on 20+ more climbs.
I've been climbing since 1985 and have redpointed 5.12b, yet I have never once solo TRed. Have I missed the point to the sport? Am I doing something wrong? Are my Anasazi Velcros holding me back? Would I be better off with Spires? Please help.
-Jay
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jmlangford
Nov 26, 2002, 12:35 AM
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wElderdude...just curious...how does a Shunt not lock off securely? I have been using one as a rap back-up for a long time and it locks off just fine.
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coclimber26
Nov 26, 2002, 12:56 AM
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dude, spend the 30$ and get the petzl soloist.
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paulc
Nov 26, 2002, 2:01 AM
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I think you mean the Wren Industries Soloist, and it cost more than 30 bucks, more like $100.
Paul
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mcfoley
Nov 26, 2002, 2:33 AM
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this system has "worked" for you, wow that's cool, however that does not equate it with ANY tried and true self belay system(if there really is "one")...the tibloc is designed as an emergency/self rescue device...its designed for careful use...it also requires some pressure to REALLY WORK properly.
Also it's NOT DESiGNED TO CATCH A FALL...it's for ASCENDING...
sounds to me like your gonna BOUNCE...
SOONER OR LATER
better safe than sorry??? I think you have it the other way around???
mf
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timpanogos
Nov 26, 2002, 5:14 AM
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It's oververtical, you fall and can not get back on the wall, or you can not send the route for whatever reason - how are you getting down?
Mike, please give a step by step of how you lower yourself in this case.
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galf
Nov 26, 2002, 7:20 AM
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Without any extra gear, he could get to his anchor by:
1- Wrapping the two ropes around his feet in a crouching position
2-Pinching the rope between his two feet
3-Push himself up with his legs while he steadies/pulls hiwself with his hands
4-Repeat...
BTW, I do NOT approve of his method.
To get down, he might chew his ropes and pray for a soft bush or something
Cheers,
Galf
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danielb
Nov 26, 2002, 1:26 PM
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I used to have a tibloc, but I sold it cause the teeth on it was just too scary. I'll stick with my prussiks thank-you.
Daniel
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bigwallgumbie
Nov 26, 2002, 2:49 PM
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Damn, tough crowd. System sounds, well interesting to me. I haven't played w/ tiblocs but I think I would probably climb on it if that helps. IF socal is even following this thread anymore.
timpanogos, I hope you know the answer to your own question and are just testing socal. Otherwise you really should figure out how to switch from ascending to rap. Here's a hint: carry a couple 2' slings and an atc.
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erdeneruc
Nov 26, 2002, 9:45 PM
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Untrue. The rated braking strength of the tibloc is 12 kN - far more than body weight.
I stand corrected. k means thousand so it must be very strong. So I guess I can fall on it, no matter if my biner engages at an angle, or if my tibloc makes contact with the rock, or any other uncontrolled factor. Of course it does not matter that the 12kN is in a lab using a pin at the correct angle. And there is never a manufacturing defect in anything that we buy. And we never drop our gear, it is always shiny and as good as new.
Oh, I have to be nice to a newby who is about to eat dirt (I guess that really depends on how he/she lands), or should I call that acting PC.
I am not allowed to find fault in socal. Did I insult socal in my succint note to say NO WAY! NEVER! Sooooo sorry. MY BAD. I will crawl into my corner and sob after I post this. How could I ever hurt the feelings of someone who posts his system and says "whatcha think y'all?" The ones that ask the question have to be handled so gently, we should talk to them in circles until they get confused which end is up. In the process, we may manage to confuse a few more gullibles who read our posting and the original post...
I will never find fault in a deadly set up ever again, NOT!
Erden.
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