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jmeizis
Jun 17, 2011, 2:06 AM
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I'll take it one step further and say most people don't know what proficient belaying is. Luckily there are limited circumstances where those skills are tested, otherwise I suspect we'd see even more accidents.
While you're probably correct that you can bend the rope more with your palm up (the same reason you hand belay thumbs toward yourself when short-roping) I think it's negated by the fact that you're hand is in a weaker grip position. Like I said, there are plenty of people who can belay palm up but unless you find some actual evidence that people catch harder falls with it and beginners learn it more quickly and proficiently (without getting confused about which side of the rope to grab), then I'll consider the fact that the AMGA has pretty much made palms down their standard as better than your "I've seen some stuff" BS.
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 2:13 AM
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jmeizis wrote: I'll take it one step further and say most people don't know what proficient belaying is. Luckily there are limited circumstances where those skills are tested, otherwise I suspect we'd see even more accidents.
You just proved my point: you have no idea what proficient belaying entails.
In reply to: While you're probably correct that you can bend the rope more with your palm up (the same reason you hand belay thumbs toward yourself when short-roping) I think it's negated by the fact that you're hand is in a weaker grip position. Like I said, there are plenty of people who can belay palm up but unless you find some actual evidence that people catch harder falls with it and beginners learn it more quickly and proficiently (without getting confused about which side of the rope to grab), then I'll consider the fact that the AMGA has pretty much made palms down their standard as better than your "I've seen some stuff" BS.
And since you have proven that you don't understand what proficient belaying entails, your opinions on the subject, including those above, are meaningless.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 17, 2011, 2:15 AM)
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jmeizis
Jun 17, 2011, 2:36 AM
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Wow, I totally thought you were gonna go for the one upsmanship again but this really came out of nowhere...
You see little girls at the gym catching 50 footers? Hell, since I've been climbing I've never seen anyone catch a fall taller than my single story house. Seen people letting go of the rope (because it's a gri-gri man), seen people deck, seen people pulled into the wall, caught a lot of other people's near misses. Considering how little the belay is severely tested I'd say most people don't have the experience to be an all around proficient belayer. Luckily most people, even those of limited intelligence such as yourself, can catch little sport falls and toprope falls. But you're content to just say I don't know jack so good for you. I would venture to guess that I belay better than you just by your comments thus far.
But please, use your ad hominem to invalidate my experience. I probably climbed more last year than you did for the past five.
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healyje
Jun 17, 2011, 3:44 AM
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jmeizis wrote: ...then I'll consider the fact that the AMGA has pretty much made palms down their standard...
As if that means anything at all or that the AMGA somehow has any lock or any better opinion on what best practices ought to be.
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 3:57 AM
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jmeizis wrote: Wow, I totally thought you were gonna go for the one upsmanship . . . I would venture to guess that I belay better than you just by your comments thus far . . . I probably climbed more last year than you did for the past five.
Textbook case of projection.
Jay
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 4:05 AM
Post #31 of 90
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healyje wrote: jmeizis wrote: ...then I'll consider the fact that the AMGA has pretty much made palms down their standard... As if that means anything at all or that the AMGA somehow has any lock or any better opinion on what best practices ought to be.
Plus, when AMGA came out with this hands-down belay policy they explicitly stated that their reason for it was that it was "easier to teach to beginners," "especially for toproping." They never claimed that it was more effective or safer, just easier to teach, and they never made any explicit claim about it for belaying a leader.
I completely agree that it is easier to teach, but that is a benefit for the teacher, not the student, much less the student's future partners.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 17, 2011, 5:47 AM)
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patto
Jun 17, 2011, 7:21 AM
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Palm up is weaker due to the reasons that jmeizis has mentioned. Furthermore it most certainly doesn't have an extra bend assuming you actually belay palm down as opposed to palm sideways.
The most scary part of palm up is that the way some people do it moves the brake rope into a completely minimal friction position during the hand swap. This is FAR FAR from ideal. That said I do believe you can belay successfully using both methods.
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healyje
Jun 17, 2011, 8:19 AM
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I've seen endless numbers of people belaying atrociously with both methods.
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j_ung
Jun 17, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Palm up with a Gri-gri. Palm down with a tube-style device.
I do feel like I can feed easier and faster palm up on a tube, but I feel more awkward braking. I can adjust to feed better than I can to catch, so palm down it is.
Really, I don't care which people use, as long as they do it correctly and well.
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drivel
Jun 17, 2011, 1:44 PM
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jt512 wrote: jmeizis wrote: Palm down for any belay device or style of climbing. Unless you're a gumby who doesn't understand how belay devices work or like ergonomically akward positioning of your oh so important break hand. Something I always tell beginners: "Is it easier to pull the rope out of the grip of your fingers or through the flesh of your hand?" If you have problems with palms down and can't feed the rope quickly or it feels akward, it's probably because you're in that gumby category. The only time anyone should have there palm up is when using a munter or a hip belay. That being said there are many people capable of catching falls palms up. It's not wrong, just not the best way. Nice try. Fact is, most people who think they can belay as proficiently palms down as palms up don't really know what proficient belaying is. Additionally, I suspect that you can apply more braking force with the rope locked off palms up than palms down, because palms up the rope makes an extra bend coming out of your hand, rather than running straight through it. I have never heard of a case when the rope was pried out of the belayer's brake hand belaying palms up, although I have heard plenty of know-it-alls like you claim that it was a risk. I don't know why you keep acting like you actually know anything. You're not fooling anyone, including, most likely, your unfortunate students. Jay
me neither. though I've heard plenty of "the belayer lost control of the rope [cause unspecified, hands not burned.]" I have always suspected some of those were the rope getting jerked out of the hands of someone belaying palm up, though admittedly I have no data for that.
I lead belay preferentially with an ATC, because I can feed slack more quickly while being safe than I can feed slack on a grigri while being safe (aka, maintaining control of the brake strand at all times. which is to say lots and lots of ppl lead belay with a grigri and do not do this.)
and I belay palm down. I was taught palm down 10 years ago, and it's always seemed less awkward to me, for belaying with a tube style device.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 17, 2011, 2:51 PM
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*raises hand and says "I did!"*
What was the question? The question was, "who thought this thread would turn into a pissing match between arrogant palms up and palms down users?"
I use palm up, and if a palms down user thinks they can belay better than me because of that than they are ignorant.
Josh
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caughtinside
Jun 17, 2011, 3:13 PM
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healyje wrote: jmeizis wrote: ...then I'll consider the fact that the AMGA has pretty much made palms down their standard... As if that means anything at all or that the AMGA somehow has any lock or any better opinion on what best practices ought to be.
Agreed. They do a good job of brainwashing, preaching, and collecting $ though. THey are sort of like the new Scientology.
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drivel
Jun 17, 2011, 3:18 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: *raises hand and says "I did!"* What was the question? The question was, "who thought this thread would turn into a pissing match between arrogant palms up and palms down users?" I use palm up, and if a palms down user thinks they can belay better than me because of that than they are ignorant. Josh
? you replied to me. are you saying I called palm-up users ignorant? because I didn't. I just said I find it awkward, and down use it.
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TradEddie
Jun 17, 2011, 3:18 PM
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jt512 wrote: Palm up. It's faster and more flexible. Jay
Depends on what it you're talking about. If you mean paying out slack quickly, then palm up, if you mean locking off quickly and hard, I think palm down is probably better. Both work well enough that when done properly, there should be no difference.
I think this may end up being a sport vs trad division of answers.
TE
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wmfork
Jun 17, 2011, 3:26 PM
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Instead of arguing, why doesn't somebody just go to the gym with a piece of rope and see how well they can hold it with some weights. I missed the old days when angry and majid actually rappeled on core strands.
I just tried in the garage, if by palms up I have the rope running against finger grip (with the highest load on the pinky), it's by far weaker than palms down (where the rope is running against the palm). Now if I hold the rope palms up and then turn the wrist so that the rope runs along the "hammer" part of the hand, it feels slightly stronger than palms down (but then the rope has an extra sharp bend around the hand than normal belaying), though if there is any rope slippage, it's a more tender part of the hand to get burnt.
(This post was edited by wmfork on Jun 17, 2011, 3:31 PM)
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 17, 2011, 3:27 PM
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drivel wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: *raises hand and says "I did!"* What was the question? The question was, "who thought this thread would turn into a pissing match between arrogant palms up and palms down users?" I use palm up, and if a palms down user thinks they can belay better than me because of that than they are ignorant. Josh ? you replied to me. are you saying I called palm-up users ignorant? because I didn't. I just said I find it awkward, and down use it.
No, sorry. I was just tacking on to the discussion as a whole. You just happen to be the last poster.
I thought I was clear who I was talking about 
Josh
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jmeizis
Jun 17, 2011, 3:29 PM
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It's easier to teach because people grasp the concept more quickly and approach proficiency with less issue. I can't count the number of times I've had somebody tell me they learned to belay with the whole palms up sliding thing and then switch the hand they're sliding, forget which rope is the brake strand or grab above their pinching finger (thus letting go of the brake). When I see people pinching and sliding I automatically assume they're less proficient. That's obviously biased on my part but when it comes to instances where people will be keeping me from hitting the ground I'm ok with that.
I would say an organization that has combined hundreds of years of experience in belaying, teaching belaying, teaching people how to teach belaying, and testing various belay devices, etc. Probably has a more valid opinion on what best practices should be than most. While I haven't found a specific palms up vs. down testing neither has anyone else.
Take away sentence of the thread:
healyje wrote: I've seen endless numbers of people belaying atrociously with both methods.
Doesn't matter which method you're using if you do it poorly.
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Diphthong
Jun 17, 2011, 3:36 PM
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jmeizis wrote: But please, use your ad hominem to invalidate my experience. I probably climbed more last year than you did for the past five.
That is hysterical. Did you actually read it before posting?
You seem to play this card every time you get in a pissing match on here. It's people like you that give guides the bad reputation they have.
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jmeizis
Jun 17, 2011, 3:39 PM
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Did I read the, "you're dumb therefore everything you say is wrong." Yeah I read it. That's the only reason I post here is for the pissing matches. Otherwise there's no entertainment value.
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 4:47 PM
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patto wrote: Palm up is weaker due to the reasons that jmeizis has mentioned.
Claims need support.
In reply to: The most scary part of palm up is that the way some people do it moves the brake rope into a completely minimal friction position during the hand swap. This is FAR FAR from ideal.
That's the way I do it. I also don't lock off the brake strand by default. I keep it around 90 degrees to the climber's side of the rope. I can give slack faster from that position, and the belay is dynamic by default (which is a feature, not a bug). It also helps scare away gumbies who might otherwise ask me for a belay.
Jay
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 4:55 PM
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TradEddie wrote: jt512 wrote: Palm up. It's faster and more flexible. Jay Depends on what it you're talking about.
"It" refers to the last agreeing antecedent. ;)
In reply to: If you mean paying out slack quickly, then palm up, if you mean locking off quickly and hard, I think palm down is probably better. Both work well enough that when done properly, there should be no difference.
That could well be true, because climbers who belay palm down also tend to keep their brake hand lower by default. However, inexperienced climbers overestimate the importance of locking off "instantly" during a fall (with experience you learn that in a fall there is sufficient time to lock off from any brake hand position), and underestimate the importance of avoiding short-roping the leader.
In reply to: I think this may end up being a sport vs trad division of answers.
I'd speculate that the following factors are positively correlated with palms-up belaying: sport climber, years climbing, American, willingness to question authority, not recently trained by AMGA.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 17, 2011, 4:59 PM)
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jt512
Jun 17, 2011, 5:13 PM
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jmeizis wrote: It's easier to teach . . .
I agree that it's easier to teach "especially to beginners for toproping [AMGA]." I disagree that simplicity of teaching is a sufficient reason to teach something. Like I said, simplicity of teaching is primarily a benefit to the teacher (and the gym), not to the student, nor to the student's future partners.
In reply to: I can't count the number of times I've had somebody tell me they learned to belay with the whole palms up sliding thing and then switch the hand they're sliding, forget which rope is the brake strand or grab above their pinching finger (thus letting go of the brake).
I agree that the pinch-and-slide method is more complicated and takes more practice to learn. However, I think the extra time is worth it.
In reply to: I would say an organization that has combined hundreds of years of experience in belaying, teaching belaying, teaching people how to teach belaying, and testing various belay devices, etc. Probably has a more valid opinion on what best practices should be than most.
Relying on authority is reasonable if you lack the experience to make your own judgment.
In reply to: Take away sentence of the thread: healyje wrote: I've seen endless numbers of people belaying atrociously with both methods. Doesn't matter which method you're using if you do it poorly.
That's obvious, and not the point.
Jay
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healyje
Jun 17, 2011, 5:26 PM
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To be honest, every time this conversation comes up I can't help but believe this is the correct palm position:
It's about competency, not palm position...
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sandstone
Jun 17, 2011, 5:27 PM
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Palm down with a tube, for the same reasons as j_ung.
j_ung wrote: ...I do feel like I can feed easier and faster palm up on a tube, but I feel more awkward braking. I can adjust to feed better than I can to catch, so palm down it is. Really, I don't care which people use, as long as they do it correctly and well. |
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jmeizis
Jun 17, 2011, 6:14 PM
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jt512 wrote: I agree that it's easier to teach "especially to beginners for toproping [AMGA]." I disagree that simplicity of teaching is a sufficient reason to teach something. Like I said, simplicity of teaching is primarily a benefit to the teacher (and the gym), not to the student, nor to the student's future partners.
I'll rephrase, I also think it's easier to learn, which is a benefit to the student. There's a correlation between easy to teach and easy to learn I'm sure. The steps that go from concious competence to unconcious competence probably pass more quickly when people learn a skill more quickly. That's just been my experience in watching lots of people belay, take belay tests, and have near misses.
jt512 wrote: I agree that the pinch-and-slide method is more complicated and takes more practice to learn. However, I think the extra time is worth it.
I think because someone can learn the BUS method more quickly they gain a quicker and deeper understanding of belay mechanics and are capable of using any belay method more quickly. I can belay just as well with the palm up as with the palm down, I just don't like it.
jt512 wrote: Relying on authority is reasonable if you lack the experience to make your own judgment.
That or if you use it to validate your previous experience. But yeah, I'm a total gumby, got it.
I'm actually really curious about which belay method is better in practice. Interested in helping me design an experiment?
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