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jjones16
Oct 13, 2011, 7:26 PM
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cracklover wrote: jjones16 wrote: <snip particulars about backing up a gear fall>Take a fall on the gear. It's a win/win. If your piece holds, your trust in your gear will increase tenfold and so will your confidence. If it doesn't hold, you know that your fears were founded and you can either go back to the drawing board, or more seriously consider not exploring that particular discipline of climbing. Actually, I really don't think this is a very good idea. That's not to say that it won't work. It almost certainly will. The trouble is that I'm not convinced that what the OP wants is something he should have right now. Taking a shortcut may hurt him in the long run. GO I don't know whether it is a good idea or not. It's just something I suggested to someone because I was once in a similar situation. I definitely see what you're saying. For me it helped alot because faith in the gear was my biggest weakness. Once it was bolstered, I was good to go. Ultimately though, he's a grown-up, as are all of us, and as such, we ultimately make our own choices and live with them. It's not up to me to decide if it's a good idea for him or not. It's up to him. You're probably more experienced than me so I'll leave the judgement of the situation up to you. I was just trying to help. To the OP- you should appreciate this concern. *edited to remove some redundancy
(This post was edited by jjones16 on Oct 16, 2011, 5:02 PM)
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rangerrob
Oct 13, 2011, 8:20 PM
Post #28 of 75
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Cracklover has seemed to nail this answer down better than everyone else has. I'll add a coupl eof things to to this. Humna have a built in fear of falling. It's evolutionary. No one is REALLY comfortable doing it, particularly on gear that you've placed. A little bit of wisdom here...there is a VERY strong likelyhood that you will never get over your fear of falling off a route. I haven't. It's what keeps us alive. You obviously enjoy what you're doing or else you would not come back to it over and over. You've only been climbing what....a few months? Cut yourself some slack. As Cracklover said, you shouldn't be falling on your gear right now anyway. Place hundreds of nuts. Place them sideways, oppose them, stack them, back them up. Place cams, place hexes, place tri-cams. At some point you will find yourself above your gear and about to fail. You'll look around frantically, you'll feel like shitting your pants, but then you'll remember to get the rope out from your leg. You'll fall as soon as you do this, and the fall will be safe. When you open your eyes, you'll realize that maybe you won't feel like you're going to die the next time. Just maybe!!! It's a just a process we all have gone through, and one day you will be belaying some new kid as he yells and screams before his first fall..and you'll smile and chuckle at yourself.
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guangzhou
Nov 19, 2011, 3:01 AM
Post #29 of 75
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rangerrob wrote: Cracklover has seemed to nail this answer down better than everyone else has. I'll add a coupl eof things to to this. Humna have a built in fear of falling. It's evolutionary. No one is REALLY comfortable doing it, particularly on gear that you've placed. A little bit of wisdom here...there is a VERY strong likelyhood that you will never get over your fear of falling off a route. I haven't. It's what keeps us alive. You obviously enjoy what you're doing or else you would not come back to it over and over. You've only been climbing what....a few months? Cut yourself some slack. As Cracklover said, you shouldn't be falling on your gear right now anyway. Place hundreds of nuts. Place them sideways, oppose them, stack them, back them up. Place cams, place hexes, place tri-cams. At some point you will find yourself above your gear and about to fail. You'll look around frantically, you'll feel like shitting your pants, but then you'll remember to get the rope out from your leg. You'll fall as soon as you do this, and the fall will be safe. When you open your eyes, you'll realize that maybe you won't feel like you're going to die the next time. Just maybe!!! It's a just a process we all have gone through, and one day you will be belaying some new kid as he yells and screams before his first fall..and you'll smile and chuckle at yourself. One of the worse post ever on falling. While you may have no trust in your ability, some of us do trust our gear enough to fall. Actually, I trust gear placed by me much more then gear placed by others. (bolts especially)
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ajkclay
Nov 19, 2011, 8:01 AM
Post #30 of 75
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johnwesely wrote: If you want something interesting, go with Nine out of Ten Climbers Make the Same Mistakes. Nothing will make more of a difference than this book. 1. You don't want to get rid of your fear of falling; you want to get rid of your irrational fear of falling when it is safe to do so or the risk is acceptable to you (sprained ankle, bruised pride/ego etc - determined by you) 2. Experience in trad gear placement is essential before you voluntarily ping onto it, but experience can come from falling on it with a top rope backup. 3. Look up Graduated Exposure / Exposure, response prevention and make sure you understand every part of the technique - this is the key to reducing your fear. - Begin by practising on bolted routes at your gym, first from below then at then above, and then with slack out. - Next lead routes at the gym you may not be able to top rope clean (if the start is dicey pre-clip the first two bolts) - Boulder on routes with difficult and committing moves - this will increase your confidence in sticking or going for those moves on a route instead of freezing up and not extending. 4. Trusting your belayer is most important - YOU must be in control of everything and know that your belayer will do what you ask whether they agree or not. A bad / inattentive / unsympathetic belayer will do a lot of damage to your confidence. 5. Never be afraid to admit fear before during or after a climb - false bravado is the first step to a serious accident - this is different to becoming consumed by irrational fear. Good climbers know when there is a real or potential risk and talk about it with their belayer so they have a plan. 6. Forget the audience - whoever you think they might be. 7. Fall a lot. All the time. Falling confidence and competence comes with practice and disappears with time if not maintained like any other skill or ability. There's probably more, this is what I can think of while my 2 year old runs around making a ton of noise while I try to concentrate. Cheers Adam
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guangzhou
Nov 21, 2011, 1:13 AM
Post #31 of 75
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ajkclay wrote: johnwesely wrote: If you want something interesting, go with Nine out of Ten Climbers Make the Same Mistakes. Nothing will make more of a difference than this book. 1. You don't want to get rid of your fear of falling; you want to get rid of your irrational fear of falling when it is safe to do so or the risk is acceptable to you (sprained ankle, bruised pride/ego etc - determined by you) 2. Experience in trad gear placement is essential before you voluntarily ping onto it, but experience can come from falling on it with a top rope backup. 3. Look up Graduated Exposure / Exposure, response prevention and make sure you understand every part of the technique - this is the key to reducing your fear. - Begin by practising on bolted routes at your gym, first from below then at then above, and then with slack out. - Next lead routes at the gym you may not be able to top rope clean (if the start is dicey pre-clip the first two bolts) - Boulder on routes with difficult and committing moves - this will increase your confidence in sticking or going for those moves on a route instead of freezing up and not extending. 4. Trusting your belayer is most important - YOU must be in control of everything and know that your belayer will do what you ask whether they agree or not. A bad / inattentive / unsympathetic belayer will do a lot of damage to your confidence. 5. Never be afraid to admit fear before during or after a climb - false bravado is the first step to a serious accident - this is different to becoming consumed by irrational fear. Good climbers know when there is a real or potential risk and talk about it with their belayer so they have a plan. 6. Forget the audience - whoever you think they might be. 7. Fall a lot. All the time. Falling confidence and competence comes with practice and disappears with time if not maintained like any other skill or ability. There's probably more, this is what I can think of while my 2 year old runs around making a ton of noise while I try to concentrate. Cheers Adam Excellent post Adam.
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ajkclay
Nov 21, 2011, 9:15 AM
Post #32 of 75
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Thanks :) This approach has made huge differences to my climbing confidence and grade on the sharp end. Cheers Adam
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rangerrob
Nov 21, 2011, 7:46 PM
Post #33 of 75
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Gonzo, what I meant is that climbers, especially sport climbers, seem to be more comfy falling on bolts than gear. Weren't you pretty scared the first time you were about to let go above a nut or cam that you placed?
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gblauer
Moderator
Nov 21, 2011, 9:11 PM
Post #34 of 75
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This summer, I fell while climbing the middle climb up Gerdie block. I had placed a solid green alien. It was over before I knew it, the alien held like a champ, I finished the climb; no fear during the fall or immediately afterwards. Interestingly, I participated in a rescue the next day where a guy fell at a roof, two pieces pulled and he flipped and hit his head/back. He broke a couple of ribs and was generally unhappy about how his day ended. That got me thinking about my fall and the "what ifs" started. Gotta say, it got me a little nervous about falling. In fact, I just returned from 12 days of climbing in Mexico and I took maybe 4 or 5 falls...that's it.
(This post was edited by gblauer on Nov 22, 2011, 1:29 AM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 22, 2011, 12:59 AM
Post #35 of 75
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my view - gear pulls ... even in "good" placements ... weve all seen or heard of it happening - try not to depend on a single placement between you and the ground or a ledge if possible ... if the stance is good and you dont need the pro later ... plug it in ... its much more important to protect the start of a pitch generally than the end - develop a very clear sense of when you can or cant fall ... falling is part of the game .. except when you cant - dont accept shiet gear if another placement is better .... place the gear as best you can ... just because shiet gear held you once, doesnt mean it will again - if yr gear blows theres a very decent chance of flipping over ... most climbers know to avoid getting the leg behind the rope above the last piece ... but if that piece blows, especially on a traverse or slab, you really have to watch out for the rope ... wear a helmet - dont try to be a tough guy or a showoff and run it out on sketchy gear at yr limit or beyong where a fall will get injured ... if yr going to run it out, do it because you have no choice or yr out of gear ... or the climb is so well within yr limits it doesnt matter ... unfortunately this means you wont get to show off in front of gurls about how big yr balls are ... or be the best most bad ass climber in the world ... but then youll likely live longer and yr partner wont have to rescue you - ultimately you wil fall ... just do the best you can about mitigating the risks - oh and if yr the whipping type of person ... do it on yr own rope and gear ... dont destroy other peoples gear for your enjoyment ... and the only solution is to climb more, place better gear, and fall ... just be aware you can still get hurt or die heres a death that should never have happened IMO ... the climb is my favorite warm up and takes perfect gear ... yet the accident stil happened on a "practice fall" http://squamishclimbing.com/...c.php?f=1&t=1922 peter croft on the route
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 22, 2011, 1:05 AM)
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guangzhou
Nov 22, 2011, 1:15 AM
Post #36 of 75
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rangerrob wrote: Gonzo, what I meant is that climbers, especially sport climbers, seem to be more comfy falling on bolts than gear. Weren't you pretty scared the first time you were about to let go above a nut or cam that you placed? I learned to climb on Yosemite cracks mostly, and loads in the Sierras, so I wasn't to scared of falling on gear. My first lead fall was completely unexpected, so I didn't even have time to think about it actually. When I learning, I was definitely more scared on bolted routes. Glacier Point Arpon had old bolts and they were a long way apart. So did the other routes with bolts actually. In general, I avoided bolt protected routes my first few years. Have I been nervous or scared about falling, yes, but only when I think about to much. Doesn't matter if the route is bolted of gear. It's amazing to me that people who climb sport routes only, trust bolts placed by someone they never met more than they trust their own gear. I do feel a bit of fear when I am placing a bolts on lead while hanging on a hook, but that's a different story all together.
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rangerrob
Nov 22, 2011, 5:01 PM
Post #37 of 75
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I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. I think Glacier Point Apron hardly qualifies as "sport" climbing. Even though it's bolted, the runouts between bolts mean heads up climbing for sure.
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jt512
Nov 22, 2011, 5:11 PM
Post #38 of 75
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rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay
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rossross
Nov 22, 2011, 6:10 PM
Post #39 of 75
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"guangzhou wrote: I do feel a bit of fear when I am placing a bolts on lead while hanging on a hook, but that's a different story all together. That's how I learned to bolt. It was a good time, only had my hook blow once.
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guangzhou
Nov 23, 2011, 1:05 AM
Post #40 of 75
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jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too.
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damienclimber
Nov 23, 2011, 2:13 AM
Post #41 of 75
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bearbreeder wrote: my view - gear pulls ... even in "good" placements ... weve all seen or heard of it happening - try not to depend on a single placement between you and the ground or a ledge if possible ... if the stance is good and you dont need the pro later ... plug it in ... its much more important to protect the start of a pitch generally than the end - develop a very clear sense of when you can or cant fall ... falling is part of the game .. except when you cant - dont accept shiet gear if another placement is better .... place the gear as best you can ... just because shiet gear held you once, doesnt mean it will again - if yr gear blows theres a very decent chance of flipping over ... most climbers know to avoid getting the leg behind the rope above the last piece ... but if that piece blows, especially on a traverse or slab, you really have to watch out for the rope ... wear a helmet - dont try to be a tough guy or a showoff and run it out on sketchy gear at yr limit or beyong where a fall will get injured ... if yr going to run it out, do it because you have no choice or yr out of gear ... or the climb is so well within yr limits it doesnt matter ... unfortunately this means you wont get to show off in front of gurls about how big yr balls are ... or be the best most bad ass climber in the world ... but then youll likely live longer and yr partner wont have to rescue you - ultimately you wil fall ... just do the best you can about mitigating the risks - oh and if yr the whipping type of person ... do it on yr own rope and gear ... dont destroy other peoples gear for your enjoyment ... and the only solution is to climb more, place better gear, and fall ... just be aware you can still get hurt or die heres a death that should never have happened IMO ... the climb is my favorite warm up and takes perfect gear ... yet the accident stil happened on a "practice fall" http://squamishclimbing.com/...c.php?f=1&t=1922 peter croft on the route [image]http://www.mountainproject.com/images/8/5/105910805_medium_ba15e5.jpg[/image] Always like seeing Peter Croft on route or just hanging out.
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shockabuku
Nov 23, 2011, 2:22 AM
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guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. While well placed gear is as solid as it is built to be I find it hard to believe that trad gear is more reliable than bolts for the average climber. I have to assume that the number of falls taken on bolts is significantly higher than the number taken on gear, but I hear about failed gear placements more often than failed bolts. Maybe trad gear is more reliable than bolts for a well skilled trad climber, but not for everyone. Whether it could be is a different issue.
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jt512
Nov 23, 2011, 2:50 AM
Post #43 of 75
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guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay
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damienclimber
Nov 23, 2011, 3:15 AM
Post #44 of 75
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jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay OMG- that was a secret not a share!
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curt
Nov 23, 2011, 3:39 AM
Post #45 of 75
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jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment. Curt
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jt512
Nov 23, 2011, 3:50 AM
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curt wrote: jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment. Curt Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment.
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guangzhou
Nov 23, 2011, 6:22 AM
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jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment. Curt Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment. Somehow I doubt they are statics on this. If you mean all failed gear placements compared to all failed bolt placements, it's not a fair comparison. An unskilled person is more likely to place removable gear than a bolt. I have also seen bolts fail and replaced bolts that were unsafe. So, let's compare well placed gear to well placed bolts. Both hold equally well. When I climb new areas, especially well established areas, I am more comfortable on gear routes because I know the gear will hold when I fall, I can't say that about bolts. I can inspect my placement, I can't inspect a bolt. Compare bad gear to bad bolts, both could hold or go. At least when I place the gear, I can evaluate the quality of the placement, when I clip a rusted out bolt, I can't. With that said, I fall on both on a regular basis. I am comfortable with both the removable gear and bolts in general, I just don't agree that a bolt is safer than removable gear.
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shockabuku
Nov 23, 2011, 2:50 PM
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guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment. Curt Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment. Somehow I doubt they are statics on this. If you mean all failed gear placements compared to all failed bolt placements, it's not a fair comparison. An unskilled person is more likely to place removable gear than a bolt. I have also seen bolts fail and replaced bolts that were unsafe. So, let's compare well placed gear to well placed bolts. Both hold equally well. When I climb new areas, especially well established areas, I am more comfortable on gear routes because I know the gear will hold when I fall, I can't say that about bolts. I can inspect my placement, I can't inspect a bolt. Compare bad gear to bad bolts, both could hold or go. At least when I place the gear, I can evaluate the quality of the placement, when I clip a rusted out bolt, I can't. With that said, I fall on both on a regular basis. I am comfortable with both the removable gear and bolts in general, I just don't agree that a bolt is safer than removable gear. Your argument seems to be internally consistent. I also think it's irrelevant to the average user and sends the wrong message to the uninformed. Informed users already know the answer so it seems to be deceptive in its intent.
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curt
Nov 23, 2011, 5:22 PM
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jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment. Curt Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment. Well, rangerrob's comment concerned a bolt of unknown origin and quality vs. a solid piece of placed gear. I certainly hope you don't believe that your reply, "because the bolt is more reliable" is always a true statement. Perhaps you didn't mean to be this overly broad. I doubt you really think a 1/4" spinner is more reliable than any well placed nut or cam. Curt
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jt512
Nov 23, 2011, 6:29 PM
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curt wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment. Curt Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment. Well, rangerrob's comment concerned a bolt of unknown origin and quality vs. a solid piece of placed gear. I certainly hope you don't believe that your reply, "because the bolt is more reliable" is always a true statement. Perhaps you didn't mean to be this overly broad. I doubt you really think a 1/4" spinner is more reliable than any well placed nut or cam. Curt First of all, a 1/4-inch spinner isn't of "unknown origin and quality," unless you define "unknown" very narrowly. The fact that it's one-quarter inch and spinning gives us considerable information about its origin and quality. Secondly, it depends what we mean by "solid." If we mean "won't fail," then, by definition, the "solid" piece of gear will be at least as reliable as any bolt. However, I think it's more realistic to define "solid" as a judgment made by the climber—a judgment whose reliability itself is imperfect. In that case, the average "solid" piece of removable protection is less reliable than the average bolt. This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about—even more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay
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