|
|
|
|
dingus
Jan 28, 2003, 5:09 PM
Post #26 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
When I was a teenager, me and Darrel Edmisson (the infamous Dr. Schitt) would auto race on country roads on moon lit nights... with our lights off, 80, 90 a hundred miles an hour. Pure teenaged idiocy. Did we "deserve" to die for this?
People do stupid things every day, even crusty old "safe" climbers... illegal lane changes, running a yellow/red light, drinking and driving, mixing prescription drugs with alcohol, the list goes on and on and on. Do we deserve to die for these things?
My oldest daughter has begun climbing. Now while she perhaps will not suffer the same level idiocy as a young man, doubtlessly she will do a stupid thing or two as she progresses into the sport, should she continue.
You may see her one day, at a crag near you, doing something stupid. Now being a teenager, she is not receptive to criticism in any form. But she will tune out smart-assed, snide, know-it-all commands as fast as she can press her internal squelch button. A polite, "the thing you are doing might be a little unsafe. Think about it, what happens if...", that sort of thing, may penetrate her defenses and get her to think and react.
I'm not asking you to by my kid's surrogate parent. I AM asking you to ask of yourself... hehe, "What if...?" As in, what if that were MY kid? Would I want some snide SOB to stand aside ready to hand out his Darwin Award when she craters? Or would I ask that as a responsible climber and a member of the human race, to at least try to avert diaster should he inadvertantly see the potential for it?
How would you feel if you saw some teenagers horsing around at a cliff, doing something incredibly stupid, you said nothing, and read in the paper the next day they were all dead? Seriously... how would you feel about that?
You are not an island. Just because someone does something stupid, doesn't mean they are unworthy of life. And who are you to judge anyway?
That could be YOUR KID!
Think about it...
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
antimatter
Jan 28, 2003, 5:14 PM
Post #27 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 140
|
Of course it's common courtesy to let someone know they are about to leave the gene pool. C'mon, really now.
However, the question doesn't ask, "They should have known better, I'm not gonna tell 'em, they can just die because they deserve it." As I read it, it's more along the lines of, "If I shoot 8x the lethal dose of smack, do I deserve to die?" Well, your damned right I do. The same goes for climbing, if you've been told time and time again, see written warnings and STILL chosen to ignore all that, then YES, YOU DESERVE TO DIE. That someone saves your ass a few times is nice but BUDDY, YOU'VE GOT IT COMING.
|
|
|
|
|
ktwo
Jan 28, 2003, 5:22 PM
Post #28 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 10, 2002
Posts: 443
|
hey you.. shut the hell up.
|
|
|
|
|
gakin
Jan 28, 2003, 5:24 PM
Post #29 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2002
Posts: 73
|
Alright, reading the last couple of post, I would have to say that I agree. Somebody that blatently does something stupid has it coming. They know they are doing something wrong, and just trying to take a short cut, hey, it's called "Darwin's Law" Natural Selection.
I guess that the way I see it is in a division of somebody who has been taught the correct way, versus somebody who hasn't. But ignorance is no excuse.
|
|
|
|
|
sportster
Jan 28, 2003, 5:29 PM
Post #30 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 6, 2002
Posts: 122
|
I think dingus is right on with what he said, everyone should take the time to read that.
Climb on
Eric
|
|
|
|
|
sportster
Jan 28, 2003, 5:32 PM
Post #31 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 6, 2002
Posts: 122
|
I think dingus is right on with what he said, everyone should take the time to read that.
Climb on
Eric
|
|
|
|
|
watersprite
Jan 28, 2003, 6:09 PM
Post #32 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 1601
|
re "how do people die canoeing. Is this an extreme sport?"
white water rafting/kayaking is very dangerous and there are so many ways to get hurt. Your shoulders are vulnerable to injury from high blocks, low blocks, and you can "boof" which is like belly flopping, and compressess ALL the vertebrae on your spine.
Have you ever heard of people being caught in a canyon in a flashflood? that's the power of water - you end up naked, cut from head to toe.
rapids are dangerous -
there are submerged trees, undertoes, wicked whirlpools under overhangs that can trap you and suck you down.
so - yeah canoeing/kayaking is as alpha a sport as climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
reborne
Jan 28, 2003, 6:17 PM
Post #33 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 190
|
its all greek to me
just thought i would mention that what he siad initialy made perfect sense if you forgave english as a second language you intolerint non bilingual american stuges
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_planar
Jan 28, 2003, 10:28 PM
Post #34 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 320
|
thanks reborne...I have a hard time thinking greek and writing english...
I ll give it another try, in relation to what said so far.
The question is why people are rushing to exclaim their indiference or even pleasure for another climbers death.
And why people deny the existance of dangers inherent to climbing.
The possibility of death exists even in a easy bolted route and even if you don't make a mistake.
Like in every life situation the more stochastic parameters you introduce in a phenomenon the more unpredictable the results become. For that reason Climbing is dangerous related to other sports or leisure activites
As far for canoeing...I just used the greek term for kayaking...
Anyway irony is a greek word...
[ This Message was edited by: vertical_planar on 2003-01-28 14:29 ]
|
|
|
|
|
marcsv
Jan 29, 2003, 7:43 AM
Post #35 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 15, 2001
Posts: 358
|
i'm sure you got a good point, you might want to paraphrase your msg because isimply don't get it.
|
|
|
|
|
dlintz
Jan 29, 2003, 8:00 AM
Post #36 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 9, 2002
Posts: 1982
|
I think what the original poster meant was that he won't be nominating anyone for the Darwin awards.
So, should I consider the consequences before my friends and I start up our next game of EXTREME dodgeball?
|
|
|
|
|
blazesod
Jan 29, 2003, 10:49 AM
Post #37 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 27, 2002
Posts: 249
|
I read this thread and a few thoughts came to mind? Read them if you have nothing better to do... which is obviously you.
1) "Ignorance is no excuse"
Learning from mistakes has given us our current safety techniques. Maybe the "uneducated barbarians" will learn a better way and prove us all wrong. If they do or not we should not say our preferred method of climbing is the "right way" less we expose our own ingnorance.
2) "No one deserves to die"
Humans constantly talk themselves into believing we know who or what should live and die. We do not.
3) "How do people die cannoing? When did this become an extreme sport?"
People die every day walking to the grocery store. Just because you may die doing something doesn't mean it is extreme. Hundreds(thouseands?) of people die driving the Interstates each year. Would you consider driving to school or work an "extreme sport?"
4) Natural selection occurs for a reason. For humans it helps keep our population explosion from consuming the rest of the planet.
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Jan 29, 2003, 12:44 PM
Post #38 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
Sometimes, people DO die because they are idiots. I remember a story in Accidents in North American Mountaineering where a person was injured rapelling because he decided to sew his own harness from webbing and fishing line.
But more often, it is a culmination of events that gets an experienced climber killed. You get a late start, you get off route, the next thing you know you are epic-ing in complete darkness. Or it can be an act of god, such as rockfall or a sudden storm. Certainly, some things can be planned for: bringing a headlamp, not climbing below other parties, retreating when your judgement tells you.
But any of us that have been climbing for a long time have been there at one time or other. And have survived but by the grace of God, or luck, or probability, whichever you believe in. We like to brush off accident reports by saying "they were idiots" becuase it comforts us. It implies that "I will not die like that because I am not an idiot". But in reality, we should learn valuable lessons from every accident report we hear/read. Well, maybe not the fihsing line-harness one! . . .
|
|
|
|
|
talons05
Jan 29, 2003, 1:49 PM
Post #39 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 1435
|
"How can you die canoing?" Well, maybe to the rest of you, negotiating a class III/IV river at floodstage is no biggie, but to some of us, things like "strainers" or "snags" and sharp rocks can become a problem when 6 foot waves are pounding you into them... Kayaking isn't the only way to get downstream...
A.W.
|
|
|
|
|
flynnypek
Jan 29, 2003, 2:23 PM
Post #40 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2002
Posts: 309
|
Yo no quiero morir!
Regardless if it is caoneing, sailing, hopping or rockclimbing.
|
|
|
|
|
lemurboy
Jan 29, 2003, 2:46 PM
Post #41 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 3, 2002
Posts: 215
|
If death comes from one of these Idiots, do you think its just an accident, or is it natural selection???
|
|
|
|
|
blazesod
Jan 29, 2003, 2:58 PM
Post #42 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 27, 2002
Posts: 249
|
^^^^^
They are the same thing.
|
|
|
|
|
bakedjake
Jan 29, 2003, 3:24 PM
Post #43 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 3755
|
Stoopidity!!!!!!!! My brother and I were doing a fly fishing trip on the delaware this last fall and man did we see some stoopidity, not once, not twice but maybe enough to keep us busy for 25% of our trip. Soft water with nary a sign of rapids, correction "NO Rapids" and canoes were still tipping at a astronomical rate. We spent at least and hour giving paddling instructions to a number of canoeists who could not get past the smallest of hurdles. It was hilarious but it was sad because the young children who were in the boat with them were in mortal danger of drowning or potentially experiencing hypothermia in the cool autumn weather.
The Moral of my story: Stoopidity or just simple ignorance jeapordizes beyond the self and can inflict injury on others. And for those who say "oh! I was alone!!" , what about the risk to the rescue workers who often have to place themselve in dangerous situations to save your dumb a#@!
Learn the rules of the road or risk having nosey people such as myself uninvitingly pontificate their advice. I'm new to climbing and if I had someone notice my mistake I'd say "hey thanks!.
"The distinguishing mark of true adventures, is that it is often no fun at all while they are actually happening." - Kim Stanley Robinson
|
|
|
|
|
ebrmusic
Jan 29, 2003, 3:49 PM
Post #44 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2003
Posts: 59
|
No one deserves to die, but a lot of people deserve to get smart. Last time I was down at Sams Throne, AR two guys come walking down the trail at 8am with gear to climb, and a beer in each hand. Not the safest start to a good day of climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
apolobamba
Jan 29, 2003, 4:05 PM
Post #45 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2003
Posts: 337
|
I agree no one deserves to die, including me. I have no problem telling people a bit of safety. I am mostly polite. If they ignore, I get away from the scene so I do not have to clean it up. Put me in danger and you will hear it.
Some Jackholes in a red Xterra almost killed my girlfriend, another couple and me because they thought it would be fun to 3rd class the boulder field to the left of the trail in Middle Owens Gorge. They let loose a boulder the size of Miata. Lucky it bounced and broke on the walls above our heads. These people got my full wrath. And still do, A$$#oles.
|
|
|
|
|
wildtrail
Jan 29, 2003, 4:54 PM
Post #46 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 11063
|
Nothing we can do. It's a "fashion statement" now. To dress like a mountaineer and to wander into the wilderness like Lewis & Clark. It's "the thing to do," now. Yeah, I hate it too, but there isn't anything we can do. People with money buy expensive things just to have expensive things and say they do these "ings" you speak of. Let's face it, our gear is attractive to these losers. It's expensive, colorful, and shiney. Three qualities that attract let Lexus lugging loser into REI to spend a grand. You can always tell the fakies. Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes SUV (let's face it, they AREN'T SUVs). Wardrobe by L.L. Bean and all the hi-tech gadgets (SAT phone, and top-o-da-line GPS--the one for 1,000). You know the type. They prepare for mowing their 4 acre lot like it's a jungle excursion.
You can't do anything about these people. They wouldn't dare spend a night on a wall, they don't take the alpine approach (always the hike up), and they sure as hell wouldn't wipe their rear-ends with leaves, rocks, and sticks to save weight in their packs.
Now you know the reason they actually sell small espresso makers at REI.
|
|
|
|
|
punk
Jan 29, 2003, 5:53 PM
Post #47 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
Even world-class climbers make gumby mistakes and NO ONE IS IMMUNE,
Having say that it is doesn’t mean that they didn’t took upon them self to know thoroughly the medium they are on and how to negotiate it
For newbie’s to the sport…I cant starch it enough and say get the proper training and experience before you hit the big one …and when you there treat it with ample respect after all we dealing with various law of physics which we cannot deify so we have to learn how to coop with them
“Idiots must NOT die” “Idiots must learn how to NOT die” and this is our (the more experienced climbers) obligation to the sport
BTW the title Idiot is too harsh…but then again it could mean me
|
|
|
|
|
climbhigher
Jan 29, 2003, 6:46 PM
Post #48 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 6, 2002
Posts: 224
|
I think i kind of get it to??? I believe that everyone should be able to do what the hell they want. That's what so great about climbing. If you don't wanna climb safe and learn, fine just don't climb with me. But, also i think everyone should take full responsibility for there own actions and never endanger another persons life. But besides that it's all free game. Go do what the hell you want. Oh another thing is always have full respect for the environment. If you wanna be a bumbly, be a bumbly, who cares. But when you get hurt ,don't blame anybody but yourself!!! Oh, then people say what about all that money that tax payers have to pay to recover the body or rescue somebody. I say leave the body and %@#$ the rescue. It's great when other climbers can help out another climber out, but otherwise, ,rescue yourself. Ok i am rambling on here. Bye, Chris.
|
|
|
|
|
climbhigher
Jan 29, 2003, 6:58 PM
Post #49 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 6, 2002
Posts: 224
|
Opps, I started reading the prevoius posts and maybe i am hitting on another subject all together. Anyways climbing is dangerous and we all make stupid mistakes even while doing simple day to day tasks. Would you call Lynn Hill an idiot for not tying fully into her harness before starting up a climb and then decking 50 + feet. Obvisously she's not an idiot, she just made a stupid mistake. We are all HUMAN at least i think we are??? sometimes i wonder??? Is there a difference between- being an expert and making a amature mistake and being an amature and making a expert mistake??????Which one are you consider being an idiot???
|
|
|
|
|
flying_dutchman
Jan 29, 2003, 7:26 PM
Post #50 of 53
(4064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 708
|
theres too many peolpe climbing these days, a few darwin award candidates cant be too bad now
|
|
|
|
|
|
