Synopsis: Leashless climbing has expanded well beyond the mixed crag into the mountains, many of the best and most influential climbers appear to be doing anything and everything leashless.

So...

-Leashless...

Yes, you might start on ice but then you'll want to try mixed which will mean leashless.

Start out leashless and you'll end up where you should be.-

I never said any such thing, these are your words so keep them in your own mouth and don't be foisting them off on me. One year alone I racked up well over 5000 meters of climbing on leashes, alpine routes, waterfalls, much of this solo so I was glad to have the leash. In 1988-89 where were you? 3rd grade?

Things change though. When I saw a photo of Steve House on North Twin North Face in April I thought, Hell's Bells, he's got no leashes! That was it from me. Now I see Maxime Turgeon skis in and solos Pomme d' Or without the leash, then he skis back out. 300 meters of grade 5/6 ice and he has the presence of mind to hold onto his tools through the entire adventure.

-climb leashless to dick around cragging on mixed routes- (!?!)

You seem contemptuous of mixed routes, at least of the bolted sport variety (probably because you suck at it). That is your prerogative but spare us the half-assed sermon on a topic you are so woefully unfamiliar with.

spare us the half-assed sermon on a topic you are so woefully unfamiliar with.

doesn't constantly reference fictitious, unspecified hardmen to buttress his own choices in equipment and technique.

The people teaching beginner's with leashed tools also probably insist on dual points :roll: Make life easy...go leashless and mono. Save the old-fangled gear for when you want to try retro.

Cobras, Sabretooths.

I climb on two Black Diamond Cobras. I've put over 100 days on my Cobras, extreme use and abuse on mixed climbs all over the world. I also use the Cobras for alpine climbs, except snow slogs where I bring an ancient big old ace axe for belays etc. I prefer the Cobras because they have a large amount of clearance for ice mushrooms, rock bulges and other terrain oddities. They also swing really nicely--a well-balanced tool is key for long pitches where you can easily make 200 placements even with good technique. Multiply that by a four hits per placement, times five or more pitches (plus cleaning, pounding pins, etc.), and you can swing your tools 5,000 or more times in a day! You can make any tool work, but a well-balanced tool makes the whole process more fun.

I use Sabertooth crampons, which feature dual horizontal frontpoints and the best under-foot points I've used. I very rarely climb on monos anymore, they simply don't work very well for the chandeleried and very thin ice I commonly climb on. Don't knock these crampons until you try them; my partners often look at them like I'm about to break out a hemp rope next, but they are truly amazing rigs. They are the only crampons I've ever used that you can truly smear with, plus the points seem to work really well for snow-covered scrambling/alpinsim. I use one horizontal as a mono when that's called for. I also like the new Makos with the Lacerator kit, they're a huge improvement over the Switchblades.

What BD tool is best for winter climbing?

I climb leashless a lot--probably about 80 percent of the time. Leashless climbing is sort of like telemark skiing vs alpine skiing: You might not have quite as much security on tele gear, but the freedom and grins are worth it. Leashless climbing offers a lot of advantages, especialy for hard mixed routes and ice cragging. I wrote extensively about this in Ice and Mixed Climbing, but the very short version is that I go pure leashless with Fusions when on hard mixed routes, "trad" leashless when cragging with Viper Fangs, and leashed when I want maximum effeciency and security on big lines. Here are a few thoughts on tool selection:

The Fusion was designed primarily as a "hooking" tool. It swings well enough once you adapt to it (trying swining it with your thumb on top of the horizontal handle part, that works really well) and is the best mixed tool I've ever climbed on, but it wasn't designed for swinging all day long (although some people seem to do fine with it). The more weight in the form of grips and so on on that's in the wrong place (the handle) the worse a tool will swing. It's basic physics, and if we want good grips and places to match then swinging performance will suffer to some extent. However, unlike all other current leashless tools, the Fusion shifts only very minimally when changing grip positions from the lower to the upper and back. Hang from a doorframe on the tool and check this out. This "shift-free" feature means you don't fall off when matching on a tool balanced on a micro-edge. There are a lot of matching moves only possible with a Fusion.

The Viper Fang is the next step up in security. I find it easier to hang onto than the Fusion, especially with gloves on, and it still swings very, very well. A Viper is a good choice if you primarily climb ice and may want to mess about on the mixed some. You can still use Androids for big routes, yet switch it out for running laps in the ice park, climbing ice at a grade you're bored silly with or anytime you don't need to swing thousands of times in a day. I climb on Viper Fangs a lot, it's a good compromise.

The Cobra or Viper with an Android is heavy artillery for moving well up fresh ice. Nothing swings as well as a Cobra or Viper with a leash, and I feel way more comfortable 30 feet above my last screw with a leash for extra security. I might be old school, but I don't fall on ice, I've seen way too much carnage over the years.

One year alone I racked up well over 5000 meters of climbing on leashes, alpine routes, waterfalls, much of this solo so I was glad to have the leash. In 1988-89 where were you? 3rd grade?

Will is also beholden to his sponsors. He doesn't mention that the Cobra sucks for 60% of climbers since the grip is too fat (though the other 40% of us love 'em). Or that the Viper is a mediocre leashless tool even with all the doodads (unless you happen to have his %body fat and megastrength). And he has to climb on Sabretooths because the Bionic is truly a crappy crampon (too flexy and lousy frontpoints). There are often a lot better options out there than BD or Red Bull but he sells them both, which is cool...just take it with a grain of salt.

I can honestly only recommend the the BD Turbo/ Express and the Grivel 360.

I climb most multipitch pure ice routes with leashed tools. I've had my feet blow 20 feet above a screw enough times to know the force involved. ...
Leashless climbing may look cool, but the emergency room isn't.

Go leashless if you plan to climb primarily hard mixed routes with good gear; go with a leash-friendly tool that you can attach to a leashless adapter if you plan to climb primarily pure ice.
...
A traditional tool with a clip-on leashless system often works better for pure ice than a leashless tool; the funky geometry of the new leashless tools often gets in the way for pure ice climbing.

I wrote extensively about this in Ice and Mixed Climbing, but the very short version is that I go pure leashless with Fusions when on hard mixed routes, "trad" leashless when cragging with Viper Fangs, and leashed when I want maximum effeciency and security on big lines.
...
The Cobra or Viper with an Android is heavy artillery for moving well up fresh ice. Nothing swings as well as a Cobra or Viper with a leash, and I feel way more comfortable 30 feet above my last screw with a leash for extra security. I might be old school, but I don't fall on ice, I've seen way too much carnage over the years.

I'm sponsored by Black Diamond and basically paid to say nice things about them. That said, if you ever read any of my product reports to BD I call it like I see it (ask the designers, they @ucking hate me some days, but ultimately they make the gear work right.).
...........
the Petzl Reverso came out, and desite being a BD-sponsored athlete I used it a lot, it was lighter than carrying two belay devices and worked well enough for all three rope-handling tasks.

Note: These are my views only, NOT statements from the manufacturers, who would certainly disagree with some of what I'm saying. I work with these companies, but if you could hear the design conversations I think you would agree that I don't pull too many punches. If you disagree with something I've said here, please feel free to drop me an email to gadd@gravsports.com, I'll publish it..

And he has to climb on Sabretooths because the Bionic is truly a crappy crampon (too flexy and lousy frontpoints).

When the top 2 finishers at Ouray '06, both won on Bionics.

Just as I get a kick out you thinking manufactured, hacked up sport routes has anything to do with the real world. Of course BD even acknowledged the Bionic was crap by replacing it with the Cyborg (a nice knock-off of another brand's crampon).

Pointing out how Will occassionally mentions minor products from other brands while failing to publicly mention the major defects of his sponsor's products doesn't help your case. Sure he tells designers but you'll almost never see him telling the public how a certain BD product is weak. Hence, you can't take everything the walking advertisement says as gospel.

It's an easily reproducible design defect. First saw a climber's tools go flying at Vail. Since then, I've shown it to numerous other people with their own tools. AFAIK Petzl has not corrected the problem. Hard to explain, easy to show. It happens when the tool is dropped with the lever going straight out.

hey guys,
I think we need to be careful about assuming others experience over the internet.
...

dev

I'm trying to imagine this situation. You mean the lever as in the piece you depress to release the leash or the metal piece that is connected to the tool itself?

Never mind, just discovered they redesigned the old Clipper leash after many years