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billcoe_
Aug 31, 2006, 6:59 PM
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Awesome pics, thanks for sharing them and the info....and for everything else too Tim.
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sonyhome
Aug 31, 2006, 7:55 PM
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I agree with tgreene, my green aliens had very light marks while my orange was deep. I posted the pics of the dimples a while back.
However, one should not conjecture anything from these photos:
Too poor to tell. If it turns out it's not a dimple people would start
bad mouthing again.
BTW, R&I has an article on the analysis about the BD rope that broke in the Sac gym.
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golsen
Sep 1, 2006, 9:15 AM
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I am in agreement with murf in terms of your involvement tim.
About 90% of your posts dealing with this issue is spew.
If CCH wants to gain "reputable" status at this point in the game, a few facts about their operations are in order. What we are talking about is two instances in the last year where CAMS failed at less than design parameters. If you are simply a "volunteer", with motives unclear, I dont buy your line and anyone else that does, well, sell them some nice desert property with 2000 foot cliffs in Florida.
What I would buy is CCH posting (on their website) some DETAILED information concerning their manufacturing and quality control program.
how they test,
who manufacturers what,
where is it manufactured,
materials used,
failure rates,
and apparently, whether they have a drug testing program in their workplace.
Also they should post the results of the tests that they have been conducting and how they conduct it.
CCH has f%%%ed up very badly and in my opinion, your spew is not helping them at all. FACTS about what they do, how they do it and what they use to build their cams are important.
BTW, I am not a "PR" guy. I am a licensed professional engineer that works at a place perceived as somewhat dangerous. In other words, if someone F%%%s up, people can die, perhaps many. You try and engineer that out of things, but that is also difficult. It involves systems on top of systems and an examination of failure modes.
That is why CCH needs to "come clean" about their manufacturing process.
The point is, CCH has been taking peoples money for a product that is supposed to perform a function. That function is to save your ass on occaision by performing as intended. It has now screwed up a couple times and NO formal explanation of significant details have been presented by a company representative to explain these problems. Some volunteer spewing on the internet has as much credibility as what you might find in a pit toilet in a campground. (No offense towards you personally).
If you bought a car, and the car manufacturer screwed up and didnt build it properly and it killed your wife or friend, are you really gonna believe some dude like tgreene spewing on the internet about how its all ok? We cant lose another car manufacturer? (Something tgreene said on another thread in regards to CCH). BULLSH&&.
If CCH does not post a full report on this incident and the previous one, they have not come clean.
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timm
Sep 1, 2006, 12:56 PM
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I have to somewhat agree with golsen above. While I don't want to minimize tgreene's work with this issue, it gives no credibility to CCH to have a volunteer working PR. Doesn't Malcolm Daly of Trango take the time to post to this forum ??
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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 1, 2006, 1:06 PM
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What BS. Without question, BD has put many more defective products out on the market that could have killed people. Yet none of the whiners are calling for a rectal exam of their entire company. We certainly don't have all the answers to Golsen's list about Trango, or Metolious, or any of the other climbing hardgood companies that have had issues. Funny how the lynch mob is so easily mollified by a slick PR campaign.
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the_mitt
Sep 1, 2006, 2:07 PM
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In reply to: What BS. Without question, BD has put many more defective products out on the market that could have killed people. Yet none of the whiners are calling for a rectal exam of their entire company. We certainly don't have all the answers to Golsen's list about Trango, or Metolious, or any of the other climbing hardgood companies that have had issues. Funny how the lynch mob is so easily mollified by a slick PR campaign.
Do you have examples? Also do you have examples of cases where BD, TRANGO, or Metolious handled a recall as poorly as CCH? Do you also have an example where a non-recalled piece just weeks after the recall failed due to a lack of QA? Do you have an example where any of the companies above called someone a liar when a concern came up? As for Trango just go over some of Mal's posts, he has been transparent to a fault. I believe that you can answer all of Golsen's questions (except the drug thing) on Trango.
It looks like CCH is trying to turn things around, thanks mainly to Tgreene. I hope they do, but I won't climb on their stuff until this shit is long behind them.
Mitt
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ckirkwood9
Sep 1, 2006, 2:15 PM
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In reply to: Mine too are not stamped "TENSILE TESTED", but they were. The earlier ( as in immediately after the recall) form of stamping them consisted of identifying them being eiother a "U" or "L" to signify whom did the testing. As far as I know, this is still being done as well, but the recent addition of "TENSILE TESTED" is done as a secondary confirmation. This later form of identification requires a jig and die, that was not immediately available. That said, if you still have any questions or doubts at all, by all means send them in immediately! :idea:
Thanks man - i'll look for the stamp. Hopefully i won't have to have the returned ones retested.
Cheers
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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 1, 2006, 2:28 PM
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The history of BD consumer testing is long and resplendent with heads breaking off ice axes, bolts popping out of crampons, ski bindings blowing up, defective cams, harnesses threaded wrong, and on, and on. Of course with that much practice, they've gotten pretty good at recalls. Trango too has had plenty of practice over the years with carabiners, ice tools, cams, etc. And there's still a lot about his sourcing you don't know, which is as it should be. CCH was untarnished until the name calling started here, all of which began with climbers failing to contact them first when there was a problem. Yes, he handled it poorly. But so did the OP in that case...and this one.
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saxfiend
Sep 1, 2006, 3:18 PM
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In reply to: Oh please, cry me a river why don't you?
Why do you have such a problem with tgreene going to bat for CCH? Haven't you ever had an underdog you wanted to pull for? Whatever you think of his motivation (as if that really matters), tgreene is at least making the facts of this incident public; I think that's worth doing and don't see why he should take so much heat for it. As far as I'm concerned, his only mistake (as I've told him in a PM) was bringing up issues with BD and Metolius, which is sort of beside the point.
JL
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tgreene
Sep 1, 2006, 3:25 PM
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So because I'm "volunteering" my services in regards to this issue, I have zero credibility..?
In reply to: Pro bono is a phrase derived from Latin meaning " for the good". The complete phrase is pro bono publico, " for the public good." It is used to designate legal or other professional work undertaken voluntarily and without payment, as a public service.
Ultimately, after 2 weeks of false information being spread across internet in regards to the date code that the OP emphatically stated to be early 04, and repeatedly insisted that he personally took photos of the date code to backup his claims, this turned out to be false as is evidenced by the images I've posted above, that came directly from the investigating officer at the Coconino County Sheriff's Department. Had I not fully immersed myself into investigating this situation, it's quite possible that the factual information that has been made public at this point, would still be shrouded in mystery.
We all want answers, and I'm doing my best to provide them in the most expeditious manner, as it is clearly in the best interest of CCH, and much more importantly their customers, which ultimately encompasses the entire rock climbing community....
One final note: It's interesting that so many of you have stated that this should all be handled in a much more "Mal Daly" like fashion, so in keeping with the numerous demands in regards to full-disclosure, I'll simply state that I have in fact discussed this with Mal on several occasions. :wink:
-Tim
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ontherocks
Sep 1, 2006, 3:55 PM
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I have only an alien, the green one. I bought it to be able to climb while I was replacing a broken cable on the same sized Camalot (blue) last year. From there the alien stayed on my rack. That size seems to work well for me and I don't trust much something smaller, other than nuts. It looks like it has been working fine. I even hung on it once. When the recall came, I looked and saw no dimple, then I kept using it. I was even considering to get some more aliens.
It is 0105, that means that maybe unsafe (?). There is still no notice on CCH website (http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/). For now I am leaving it out of my rack this weekend, while I think what to do.
Well, my question is: should I send it to CCH? Will they test it for sure and "certify" it's strength? Otherwise, will CCH post on their site that is safe to use it? The lack of information on their website is a reason for me to worry. I'll keep the alien out of my rack until I get an official response, but the lack of it so far and this delay worries me. Many of my friends use aliens regularly. Should I scare the shit out of them to keep them safe? Should I take mine to REI and ask for a refund?
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ctardi
Sep 1, 2006, 4:26 PM
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Ontherocks - If you had read this thread, you would find out that they can't update their website, they need to get a hold of the person that did it last so that they can get the password.
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billcoe_
Sep 1, 2006, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: I have only an alien, the green one. I bought it to be able to climb while I was replacing a broken cable on the same sized Camalot (blue) last year. From there the alien stayed on my rack. That size seems to work well for me and I don't trust much something smaller, other than nuts. It looks like it has been working fine. I even hung on it once. When the recall came, I looked and saw no dimple, then I kept using it. I was even considering to get some more aliens. It is 0105, that means that maybe unsafe (?). There is still no notice on CCH website ( http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/). For now I am leaving it out of my rack this weekend, while I think what to do. Well, my question is: should I send it to CCH? Will they test it for sure and "certify" it's strength? Otherwise, will CCH post on their site that is safe to use it? The lack of information on their website is a reason for me to worry. I'll keep the alien out of my rack until I get an official response, but the lack of it so far and this delay worries me. Many of my friends use aliens regularly. Should I scare the s--- out of them to keep them safe? Should I take mine to REI and ask for a refund?
Send it in and get it tested ontherocks...right now. don't wait. Lets all bang this out and get it done. If you keel over of a heart attach tomorrow and the widow sells your stuff, it will be nice to see 100 safe stuff floating around out there.
Tell all your friends who don't live on these message boards as well. Spread the word.
BTW to the board: STFU and stop whining about CCH and Tgreene. If you want to send CCH a letter stating these opinions, many of which are very well spoken and highly accurate: (about their handling, QC, etc etc) that would be a productive thing to do. The address is posted on the very first post. Send it to Dave Waggoner.
Spewing venom all over this board at this time really doesn't do anything. I will admit I've previously verbally shat on them as well, so don't go researching my old posts and tossing it back in my face. This is a good action on CCH's part, a huge step in the right direction, and an especially good one on Tgreens part. Tgreenes been very open and transparent on his motives and price for assistance. (rack of Aliens, not very much pay IMO)
During the last Alien Brohaha, someone I know, healyJe, jumped in to assist, at no charge or pay for himself, and in fact at his own expense. He was subjected to these flames about his motives as well: you detractors were way wrong about healyje, who only was trying to help (and did, quite a bit).
So accept that Tgreene is helping us all out and get off his ass goddamnit. CCH is testing every alien leaving the factory and they will be testing 19 of mine that I sent off yesterday. It took a while to get the bus on the road but it's there now and heading the correct direction. (Thankfully)
So lets move forward OK?
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murf
Sep 1, 2006, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: So because I'm " volunteering" my services in regards to this issue, I have zero credibility..?
In terms of what is going on at CCH, very close to zero. You aren't an employee, and, unless I misunderstood your explanations to date, you haven't gone in and observed all the supposed quality changes.
You are treading a very fine line between someone with their ear to the ground, and someone who is speaking for the manufacturer. You also seem to have a tendency to dance on whatever side of that line that you feel like. I think this, amoung other things, bothers me the most.
In reply to: With this latest failure, I independently worked on unraveling this mystery for 3 days before ever having any contact with CCH, because frankly I thought thought they certainly would have already been contacted and working on this themselves. The reason I was doing this independently at the onset, was to be assured of the viability of the information. Ultimately, after 2 weeks of false information being spread across internet in regards to the date code that the OP emphatically stated to be early 04, and repeatedly insisted that he personally took photos of the date code to backup his claims, this turned out to be false as is evidenced by the images I've posted above, that came directly from the investigating officer at the Coconino County Sheriff's Department. Had I not fully immersed myself into investigating this situation, it's quite possible that the factual information that has been made public at this point, would still be shrouded in mystery.
My read on the above is that CCH would have done little or nothing to verify this w/o your involvement. That is just freaking scary. I truly hope I am wrong in this.
Murf
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tgreene
Sep 1, 2006, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: My read on the above is that CCH would have done little or nothing to verify this w/o your involvement. That is just freaking scary. I truly hope I am wrong in this. Murf
If you wish to discuss any of this with me in a more mature manner, then I sincerely invite you to pick up your phone and call me.
Regards,
Tim Greene
870.627.0594
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davelwang
Sep 1, 2006, 7:24 PM
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I sent my non-dimpled Aliens in for testing after calling CCH. The guy I talked to on the phone was very nice, however, he is not the owner and he would not say outright if CCH is expanding the recall to all the cams, dimpled or otherwise.
I am a little frustrated with the ambiguous language, both in my phone conversation and this official announcement. Is CCH expanding the recall or not? Are they standing behind the specs of the non-dimpled Aliens are not?
My frustration aside, at this point I think whether CCH is "officially" expanding the recall is unimportant. The bottom line is they are telling everybody who owns an Alien manufactured during the specified period to return the cams to get them tested.
I think the Mods should put it in Climbing News or somethings as an official announcement from CCH so all the users of Aliens (dimpled or otherwise) would send the cams in for testing.
Also, thanks to the OP for taking the initiative, this is not a flame against your efforts.
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phojar
Sep 1, 2006, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: My read on the above is that CCH would have done little or nothing to verify this w/o your involvement. That is just freaking scary. I truly hope I am wrong in this. Murf
Did the OP ever contact CCH directly? It isn't CCH's job to monitor forums on the internet and respond to all claims made about their products.
Everyone was so eager to jump on CCH based on nothing but an anonymous forum post. Now it looks like the OP was wrong about the date stamp on the cam, in addition he has never bothered to post up his pictures of the cam. He was in a position to document everything he had claimed and he failed to do so and no one seems to think anything is wrong with that, that is what is scary.
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glyrocks
Sep 1, 2006, 9:54 PM
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Well here I am with a fractured vertabrae, displaced CI joint, and a shattered wrist because my seemingly good Alien placement pulled. Now I read I'm supposed to send all my Aliens back to have them tested? I won't I say decked because the Alien failed opposed to the placement, but I think my tests are already finished, and so are my days of trusting CCH.
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tgreene
Sep 1, 2006, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: Well here I am with a fractured vertabrae, displaced CI joint, and a shattered wrist because my seemingly good Alien placement pulled. Now I read I'm supposed to send all my Aliens back to have them tested? I won't I say decked because the Alien failed opposed to the placement, but I think my tests are already finished, and so are my days of trusting CCH.
No matter how you slice it, this not only sucks for everyone directly involved, but for all climbers everywhere!
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glyrocks
Sep 1, 2006, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Well here I am with a fractured vertabrae, displaced CI joint, and a shattered wrist because my seemingly good Alien placement pulled. Now I read I'm supposed to send all my Aliens back to have them tested? I won't I say decked because the Alien failed opposed to the placement, but I think my tests are already finished, and so are my days of trusting CCH. Except you are not the injured party, and you do have the necessary information pertaining to discontinuing the use of all Aliens dated 11-04 to 12-05, until they have been properly tensile tested.
Maybe it's just been a long week and I'm friend, but I'm not sure I get what you're saying.
In reply to: No matter how you slice it, this not only sucks for everyone directly involved, but for all climbers everywhere!
Yes, that's certainly true. This does suck all around.
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murf
Sep 1, 2006, 10:23 PM
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tgreene,
Feel like doing some more pro boner work?
So here is what I want to know:
- What specific steps has CCH taken to test axle brazes and how is this different from the previous process?
- What steps has CCH taken to verify cam head shape and axle holes and how is this different from the previous process?
- What specific steps has CCH taken to verify the loop swage strength if any?
- Is there any pictures or process description of the strength verification?
- When did this step get put into place?
- Was the unswaged Orange Alien ever dated and did it get out the door *after* loop swage testing was instituted?
- What steps has CCH taken to verify sling color to cam size if any?
If CCH is interested in repairing their image, this is the type of info people want to know.
Murf
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tgreene
Sep 1, 2006, 10:55 PM
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Murf, aside from questioning, insulting and attempting to discredit me every step of the way, what steps have YOU taken to get this information..?
I really do wish that many here were capable of grasping the concept that I'm sticking my neck out for we the climbing community, not for CCH. You haven't asked anything in the above post, that is any different from we all want to know, and it's all information that I have been very actively seeking. I can tell you what I've been told till the cow's come home, but w/o photographic evidence, independant random testing and on-site verification, followed up by regular quarterly visits, none of us will be happy... Me especially!
First and foremost however, we wanted information surrounding this latest incident. When I was called and asked if I would be willing to assist CCH with their statement, I was happy to do so, because I wanted to make damn sure it got done as soon as possible. Furthermore, the first time that I spoke w/ them in regards to this latest incident, I stressed the absolute importance of making sure that a PROPER statement was made public, the very moment that the facts surrounding this accident/failure were made available.
I also demanded that photos be published as soon as they were available, to which I followed through, and was able to get them. Furthermore, I insisted that the actual emails CCH received from the Sheriff's Dept. be re-directed to me w/ the attachments, rather than images being sent seperately from a CCH email addy. This provided me with the necessary level of verification, and assured me that these images hadn't been altered before I received them. -- Yes, I question everything!
I have also asked that you take the time to call me, and while numerous others have actually done so, you have not.
-Tim
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flyinglow
Sep 2, 2006, 12:37 AM
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In reply to: Hey Tim, I don't think that's a dimple there in that photo. Looks more like a scratch or a ding. Compare it to the indentations on the lobes. I've seen quite a few dimpled cams and informed many people about the recall. IMO that's not a dimple.
For my own curiosity, I tweaked the brightness and contrast on the original posted earlier in this thread to get a better look. That doesn't look like a dimple to me. you can't see the other side of the cam though, so no solid answers... opinions anybody?
http://i42.photobucket.com/.../the%20dump/cch1.jpg
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murf
Sep 2, 2006, 12:37 AM
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In reply to: Murf, aside from questioning, insulting and attempting to discredit me every step of the way, what steps have YOU taken to get this information..?
I haven't put myself forward as someone with a connection with CCH. I have no inclination to insert myself into their process. I'm fully stocked with tard gear, but if I need to rethink my small gear, unfortunately CCH is not going to be high on the list. To put themselves back on that list, answers to the questions above would be a good start.
In reply to: I really do wish that many here were capable of grasping the concept that I'm sticking my neck out for we the climbing community, not for CCH.
I don't seem to be the only one with the impression that you are in CCH's corner. Perhaps you should consider why that is?
In reply to: First and foremost however, we wanted information surrounding this latest incident. When I was called and asked if I would be willing to assist CCH with their statement, I was happy to do so, because I wanted to make damn sure it got done as soon as possible. Furthermore, the first time that I spoke w/ them in regards to this latest incident, I stressed the absolute importance of making sure that a PROPER statement was made public, the very moment that the facts surrounding this accident/failure were made available. I also demanded that photos be published as soon as they were available, to which I followed through, and was able to get them. Furthermore, I insisted that the actual emails CCH received from the Sheriff's Dept. be re-directed to me w/ the attachments, rather than images being sent seperately from a CCH email addy. This provided me with the necessary level of verification, and assured me that these images hadn't been altered before I received them. -- Yes, I question everything!
IMO every statement you've made except the above has seemed to come from a CCH centric attitude. I think you need to pick your position; skeptic climber who wants to know when, if, how, and why you can trust your CCH cams, or unpaid CCH marketing hack.
In reply to: I have also asked that you take the time to call me, and while numerous others have actually done so, you have not.
I'm perfectly satisfied with this mode of communication.
The fact of the matter is, there's never been a time with so many choices of climbing gear. Alien's are definately my choice for the small, but if they go the way of the dodo, I'll deal with it, and so will everyone else. CCH needs to step up and be definitive about how they are solving these quality issues. Using the excuse that Dave et. al. aren't media/internet savvy isn't going to cut it anymore in my opinion.
Murf
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tgreene
Sep 2, 2006, 1:01 AM
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Ya know what, I'M DONE!
Since nothing that I could ever possibly say will be good enough for you, you and others will either have to attempt to get answers yourselves, or wait for the next whipping boy to come along.
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