Since we pay for everything one way or the other, people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.
2. No one else will climb with them.
3. You have such great potential that you hardly need mentoring to be their equal partner.

Of course experienced people will go climb w/ their less experienced friends from time to time, but for the most part more experienced climbers want to go do their more experienced kind of climbing unless one of the above situations applies.

And for many of us, having tits just wasn't a realistic option!

Sigh...sad but true for me too. :cry:

people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.

people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.

not exactly.

it's like this, i have half a dozen hard bros with whom i climb who can fiddle in tiny nuts on run-out 5.11. but at the end of the day, around the campfire, or at the hot springs, these guys can be a bit............well, you know, crusty. and the forced bivy is a whole other story.

Both of my "mentors" are highly skilled (one is certified as a guide and one works SAR) and they both like to lead 5.9 and under, which is just perfect for me to follow them and learn.

The things is...whether you agree that it's the way it should be or not...it's the truest rule on the list.

Since we pay for everything one way or the other, people want to "mentor" for three reasons typically:

1. Sexual ones.
2. No one else will climb with them.
3. You have such great potential that you hardly need mentoring to be their equal partner.

Most folks who are in the "I want to be the best follower that I can be so someone will take me climbing and show me stuff camp" are going to be attracting ongoing regular partners for reasons 1. or 2. If you're in camp 3, then how good of a follower you are is going to be a small part of the big picture pretty quickly.

Of course experienced people will go climb w/ their less experienced friends from time to time, but for the most part more experienced climbers want to go do their more experienced kind of climbing unless one of the above situations applies.

Hmmmm, I think "wow" is my first response to all that. Now, I've clearly been guilty of #3 over the years. But the others and the whole tone of this is way, way off base from anything in my experience or that of my fellow old school partners. Maybe its a Cali-culture deal as well or maybe times have changed and spawning predators is just another spinoff of the commercialization of climbing with gyms making fertile ground for them.

I've never once thought twice about a partner's sex as either peers or someone I'm helping out to learn trad. And I've been roped soloing extensively for thirty years and like climbing alone half the time. Getting up a route that's a challenge for you, getting hurt badly, or dying on a rock are all pretty sexless affairs from my experience. And while I was as likely as the next person to get after a woman I thought was hot (been married to the last one for twelve years) - that has nothing whatsoever to do with climbing - at least in my book.

Sorry you and others have had such unfortunate experiences and even sadder if times have changed and this is actually as rampant as some of you portray...

P.S. And I have to second Larry's comment on the giving learners sh#t - it's not my style - I try to be as supportive as humanly possible while still being clear as a razor about what I believe is required and appropriate at any given moment.

I've never once thought twice about a partner's sex as either peers or someone I'm helping out to learn trad. And I've been roped soloing extensively for thirty years and like climbing alone half the time. Getting up a route that's a challenge for you, getting hurt badly, or dying on a rock are all pretty sexless affairs from my experience.

...
And I am sure a number of you will take issue with this, but you have to ask yourself WHAT IS IN IT FOR THE MORE EXPERIENCED CLIMBER. Because don't kid yourself, you are getting something out of it. ...

How about: You love climbing and enjoy sharing it with an enthusiastic newcomer.

...

Do you really take a beginner up a route that's challenging for you? Of course not. If you do, you're asking for trouble.

And I am sure a number of you will take issue with this, but you have to ask yourself WHAT IS IN IT FOR THE MORE EXPERIENCED CLIMBER. Because don't kid yourself, you are getting something out of it.

Is it a dating interest? Are you friends? Are you fun to hang out with? Are you paying them?

Why would I spend my limited free time teaching someone to climb? Because they are my friend, or I would like to be friends with them. I'm not really into unpaid guiding.

And I also think it's a little silly to call someone interested in dating another climber a predator. Oh come on. If you're actually serious about climbing a lot, you might just find that it is difficult to maintain a relationship with a non-climber. It is perfectly natural to want to have BOTH. which is best served by dating a climber.

Leezerdgirl, I seem to recall that your profile said for a while that you were interested in dating a climber. so why all the suprise?

...

What do you bring to the partnership? Because you are getting something in return, and most people aren't interested in unpaid guiding.

Becoming a leader is a state of mind! Most of the hard work that makes you a true leader happens on your own. It happens on the sharp end when no-one's there to spoon feed you advice!

Becoming a true lead climber only has a bit to do with knowing how to place good gear and keep the fear in check. It has everything to do with taking control of your destiny. You want to start down the road to being a true trad leader? Don't look for a guide to show you the way, show some initiative, do your homework!

Blithely following your Mentor around saying "please sir, may I have s'more?" will never make you a leader.

Of course, nobody likes a know-it-all with more booksmarts than real exeriental knowledge, so keep it real, and keep your ego in check, but having the attitude that drives you to do all of the above will make you a true leader far more than the other guy who's led five times as many pitches, but they were all spoon-fed him, and most of them were either practiced on toprope first or just mock-led.

I believe that true mentors do not teach - if you're really a leader, you teach yourself with their help. True mentors provide inspiration, culture, ethical guidance, and a historical perspective.

My point was that a climbing partnership / mentor relationship won't last if the leader's desire to do The Deed, as you call it, is the only glue and the follower only has hotness to offer.

Couple things.

I can't take credit for the term, 'The Deed.' I ripped it off from Largo because I am immature and it made me snicker.

2nd, who says the relationship has to last? Not my style, but I see it happen all the time... consensually by both.

First, I never meant to imply that the great and wonderful scary larry deanglo wasn't psyched. I know you like to hold his balls for him and tell the rest of us how great he is. My post referred to the different enthusiasm of the beginner.

Maybe they can find a real charitable soul to teach them. Someone who doesn't like to talk while they climb, and rope solos a lot. sounds like a real fun guy.

I'll stick to climbing with my friends, thanks.

Being a hot female is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for cultivating a partnership with someone you can learn from.

I wanted to say something about the really good point on being clear / honest about your abilities and speed. I've definitely had experiences where I didn't talk with my new partner in advance about speed in particular and ended up feeling bad for holding them back.

I also think it's really easy to have misunderstandings about this stuff even when you're trying to be honest, so it's important to talk about it in enough detail that you know you're on the same page. For example, I told one new partner I was comfortable following up to 5.9. To me, that meant I could promise I'd be able to get up anything 5.9 or under, but that was my limit and I might not be able to get up anything harder. To her, "comfortable up to 5.9" meant that 5.9 was not terribly challenging for me, and that I could do things in the 5.10 or maybe 5.11 range with a little more effort.

Also, it's worth noting for the umpteenth time that gym climbing and outdoor climbing scales do not equate, so someone new to outdoor climbing should be very explicit if they're talking about grades they've done in the gym. It reminds me of a scene in a movie where the guy says "I've logged 2000 hours of flight time" and takes over flying a plane without ever mentioning that's flight time on a Playstation simulator. And then he doesn't know how to work the brakes because he never had to do that on the Playstation. Yeah. Gym climbing is like that.