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kenr
Dec 1, 2010, 12:27 AM
Post #51 of 68
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rgold wrote: I for one hope (bolt anchors) never catches on. It dumbs down climbs and removes the commitment factor by making retreat from any point convenient.
rgold wrote: As for the vertical bolt orientation in Europe, I think it is directly related to belaying off the anchor.
Where I did see vertical bolt anchors was at rappel stations. And as top anchors for single-pitch climbs of say 35 meters or less ("couennes").
Often there would be a rappel ring on the lower bolt. Often the bolts themselves were sorta like "eye screws": a round ring as part of the bolt itself.
So if you run the rappel rope thru the (vertically-oriented) fixed "eye" ring of the top bolt, and the (horizontally-oriented) movable ring attached to the bottom bolt, then you have (a) redundancy; and (b) less friction for pulling the rope down than many other 2-bolt configurations.
But wait, it goes beyond rappelling . . .
I saw some leaders of single-pitch climbs, upon reaching the anchor, would immediately untie from the rope, thread it thru the two rings as described above, then have their follower lower them thru the rings -- then top-rope the other climber(s) thru the rings ("moulinette") -- then pull the rope down.
(I of course had brought from home some extra slings and large-diameter biners specificially for top-roping.)
Sharing ... on non-vertical bolts
No one seemed to find it remarkable if the leader of party behind climbed up say 20 feet below the follower of the party ahead. And then clipped into the same anchor, underneath the follower's tie-in, while the party ahead was exchanging pro, etc. Then hang off the anchor and start belaying their second up.
Two parties belaying in opposite directions off the same 2-bolt anchor.
Ken
(This post was edited by kenr on Dec 1, 2010, 12:39 AM)
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sspssp
Dec 4, 2010, 12:18 AM
Post #52 of 68
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blueeyedclimber wrote: sspssp wrote: majid_sabet wrote: belay off harness when you have a solid anchor does not do a dam thing This got mentioned, but it is worth repeating. If your leader knocks a rock off, you have a lot more options for not getting hit if you are belaying off your harness and can move around. I also like belaying off the harness to provide a softer catch (especially since I usually belay with a cinch). If you are hanging a few feet below the anchor and the lead rope is clipped directly into the anchor, I think you are in better shape if the leader falls before getting a piece in (or the first piece pulls). The anchor is essentially the first piece, so the fall is a little bit less than a factor two and pulling the belayer up reduces the shock. You can always unclip the lead rope from the anchor after the leader gets a couple of good pieces in. You realize Majid is saying NOT to belay off the harness, right? Josh
And you realize that I DISAGREE with Majid, right?
(This post was edited by sspssp on Dec 4, 2010, 12:19 AM)
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sbaclimber
Dec 4, 2010, 6:20 AM
Post #53 of 68
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sspssp wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: sspssp wrote: majid_sabet wrote: belay off harness when you have a solid anchor does not do a dam thing This got mentioned, but it is worth repeating. If your leader knocks a rock off, you have a lot more options for not getting hit if you are belaying off your harness and can move around. I also like belaying off the harness to provide a softer catch (especially since I usually belay with a cinch). If you are hanging a few feet below the anchor and the lead rope is clipped directly into the anchor, I think you are in better shape if the leader falls before getting a piece in (or the first piece pulls). The anchor is essentially the first piece, so the fall is a little bit less than a factor two and pulling the belayer up reduces the shock. You can always unclip the lead rope from the anchor after the leader gets a couple of good pieces in. You realize Majid is saying NOT to belay off the harness, right? Josh And you realize that I DISAGREE with Majid, right?
@Majid, do you belay a leader directly off the anchor the majority of the time?
I would be willing to bet most climbers in general do not....and there are valid reasons why.
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Dec 4, 2010, 4:15 PM)
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uni_jim
Dec 4, 2010, 7:07 AM
Post #54 of 68
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CATCHING FALLS IS NOT A BIG DEAL!!! Tie your ass to the anchor and belay off your harness. Now, Since you are not standing on a big comfy ledge, you tie in long so you are not PINNED against the rock. Look at this! You can comfortably sit in your harness with your feet out against the rock (or in slings) and when you catch my 90 foot screamer, you have room to be LIFTED WITHOUT VIOLENT RESULTS!!!
Tie in long on the hanger's and you'll be happy.
edited for word choice
(This post was edited by uni_jim on Dec 4, 2010, 7:13 AM)
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uni_jim
Dec 4, 2010, 7:24 AM
Post #55 of 68
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how to tie your ass to the anchor
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stagg54
Dec 4, 2010, 3:55 PM
Post #56 of 68
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chrberni wrote: in particular, of routes at Stone Mountain State Park, NC, USA. So wicked whippers are certainly possible in the case of a fall.
Having climbed there several times, I don't think you have to worry too much in terms of wicked whippers (at least if by wicked you mean placing lost of force on the anchor) The cheese grating will absorb a lot of that force. I took a 15 footer there once and stopped before I even reached the bolt below me. I could smell the burning rubber and watch the curlycues of rubber coming off my shoes. Most routes are so slabby its hard to take a real fall.
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rtwilli4
Dec 5, 2010, 4:58 AM
Post #57 of 68
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I weigh 160 and my gf weighs about 100. I fall on her all the time and she flys all over the place. Never got a scratch.
If you're not satisfied with the first three answers then, well, "yer gonna die!"
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majid_sabet
Dec 5, 2010, 6:43 AM
Post #58 of 68
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sbaclimber wrote: sspssp wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: sspssp wrote: majid_sabet wrote: belay off harness when you have a solid anchor does not do a dam thing This got mentioned, but it is worth repeating. If your leader knocks a rock off, you have a lot more options for not getting hit if you are belaying off your harness and can move around. I also like belaying off the harness to provide a softer catch (especially since I usually belay with a cinch). If you are hanging a few feet below the anchor and the lead rope is clipped directly into the anchor, I think you are in better shape if the leader falls before getting a piece in (or the first piece pulls). The anchor is essentially the first piece, so the fall is a little bit less than a factor two and pulling the belayer up reduces the shock. You can always unclip the lead rope from the anchor after the leader gets a couple of good pieces in. You realize Majid is saying NOT to belay off the harness, right? Josh And you realize that I DISAGREE with Majid, right? I'm with sspssp on this one. What Majid is saying is correct as far as the physics are concerned, and is also "recommended" by the alpine club here (DAV), but honestly......in practice.....belaying a leader directly off the anchor is generally a royal PITA (i.e. the belay device is often significantly higher than the belayer's waist, making rope handling extremely tedious). @Majid, do you belay a leader directly off the anchor the majority of the time? I would be willing to bet most climbers in general do not....and there are valid reasons why.
on first pitch, I belay off harness but after first, if anchor is solid, I belay off anchor. also from a good anchor, you could belay second and third simultaneously having each climber on gri gri . try to this on your harness and you got CF.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 5, 2010, 6:44 AM)
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sbaclimber
Dec 5, 2010, 10:20 AM
Post #59 of 68
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majid_sabet wrote: also from a good anchor, you could belay second and third simultaneously having each climber on gri gri . try to this on your harness and you got CF.
majid_sabet wrote: ...but after first, if anchor is solid, I belay off anchor.
Something like this....?
If so, how do you anchor your power point from below? If you anchor yourself to it, you will end up with the belay device at chest level.
...and I don't know about you, but I find belaying at chest height or above a PITA.
btw, here is one of the ways the german alpine club recommends....
source document
The theory looks fine, and the physics makes sense, but I have simply found it rarely practical IRL......
...maybe I am just missing something...
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Dec 5, 2010, 11:12 AM)
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majid_sabet
Dec 5, 2010, 4:12 PM
Post #61 of 68
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sbaclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: also from a good anchor, you could belay second and third simultaneously having each climber on gri gri . try to this on your harness and you got CF. Belaying 2nd and 3rd is irrelevant......I only wanted to know how you belay the leader. majid_sabet wrote: ...but after first, if anchor is solid, I belay off anchor. Okay, fair enough. So, if you you have 2 bolts at say...should height, you extend the anchor to a power point and belay off that? Something like this....? If so, how do you anchor your power point from below? If you anchor yourself to it, you will end up with the belay device at chest level. ...and I don't know about you, but I find belaying at chest height or above a PITA. btw, here is one of the ways the german alpine club recommends.... source document The theory looks fine, and the physics makes sense, but I have simply found it rarely practical IRL...... ...maybe I am just missing something...
I treat each case different so if the anchors are that high then I would belay off harness however, I would have the master on belay and I clip as secondary. if the anchor is set lower then I would belay off anchor. if belaying second from top then I do it off anchor as I have done .how good is your belaying with 8 in case you forgot your ATC.
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sbaclimber
Dec 5, 2010, 4:20 PM
Post #62 of 68
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majid_sabet wrote: ....if the anchors are that high then I would belay off harness.... 
majid_sabet wrote: how good is your belaying with 8 in case you forgot your ATC.
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altelis
Dec 5, 2010, 4:26 PM
Post #64 of 68
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j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: how good is your belaying with 8 in case you forgot your ATC.  I don't know about him, but there is precisely zero chance that I'll have a figure 8 with me.
That's exactly what i was going to say! Its irrelevant how well I can belay with an eight since I don't own one, and neither do any of my regular partners.
Muenter for me if I drop/forget belay device...
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sbaclimber
Dec 5, 2010, 5:14 PM
Post #65 of 68
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altelis wrote: j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: how good is your belaying with 8 in case you forgot your ATC. I don't know about him, but there is precisely zero chance that I'll have a figure 8 with me. That's exactly what i was going to say! Its irrelevant how well I can belay with an eight since I don't own one, and neither do any of my regular partners. Muenter for me if I drop/forget belay device... 
(...not that I could for the life of me think of a reason I would ever "have" to.... )
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bill413
Dec 5, 2010, 6:18 PM
Post #67 of 68
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uni_jim wrote: how to tie your ass to the anchor
Shouldn't the belay rope be run above the anchor rope?
(This post was edited by bill413 on Dec 5, 2010, 6:18 PM)
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danabart
Dec 6, 2010, 12:58 AM
Post #68 of 68
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Aside from Grand Funk, is there even anything out there where the second pitch is harder than low-angle 5.5 or 5.6? Maybe Yardarm and GWW?
The second pitch of Rainy Day Women? The second pitch of Orange Blossom Special?
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