|
the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 2:37 AM
Post #51 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
Ahh... You crack me up.
You pull one obscure knot out of the archives and blast pico for not knowing it. That's not being serious, that's being pedantic.
Obviously I care about self/leader rescue since I've spent time learning it as well as making sure that my partners know suitable techniques.
I am only interested in flaming people who feel the need to preach and talk down to me. As for trolling, I'm just standing at the counter of the fish market and you keep jumping back in my cart. My original point, which you still fail to grasp is that some people are capable of learning on their own. Maybe you needed to pay cash to a "professional" to feel like you learned something. Good for you.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 26, 2003, 2:46 AM
Post #52 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Hmmm..... Well, I'm trying not let this degrade into a pissing match. I think there have been a bunch of good points made. I tend to bend more towards getting some basic instruction. One reason, I run the Search And Rescue Team for the NPS here in Joshua Tree. We have a number of extremely experienced climbers on the team. Some of the basic concepts we use in rescue parallel self rescue, but on steroids. I once again refer to the ability to assess risk. Knowing a few extra knots won't save you or your partner. I firmly believe that self rescue is more advanced topic than just anchor building and leading. Who's to say who is qualified and who is not to perform a self rescue is a real challenge. I certainly don't feel I or we should make that distinction, I just feel that a little qualified instruction never hurts.
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 26, 2003, 2:51 AM
Post #53 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
1. The mariner is not obscure.
2. You have demonstrated your interests very well.
3. Please forgive me for taking the foolish point of view that everything you need to know about self rescue is not in the books, and that professionals can save a student of rescue a lot of trouble and help them avoid a serious accident.
4. You are on the losing side of a safety argument. If you put as much effort into rescue training as you do into pointless insults and trolling, you'd probably be pretty good, if you had proper instruction.
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 3:35 AM
Post #54 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
I'm not trying to say that everything everyone need to know is in books. But reading up on self rescue is a good place to start. Going out and practicing these techniques in a safe environment is even better. I'm sue some people can benefit from taking a course. My problem with a blanket recommendation for professional instruction is that it tends to make people complacent. Having taken a course in self rescue years before and resting on that knowledge makes a person more of a liability than an asset. I feel that many climbers would be better served by trying to figure out these things on their own in a controlled environment. It is a common teaching technique to allow students to make discoveries on their own. Many people remember things better if they came to that knowledge by their own discovery. I feel that most climbers would be better served by assessing their own abilities so that, if they then decide to seek professional instruction they will at least have a better understanding of where their strengths and weaknesses are.
As for putting effort into rescue training, I make a point to practice my techniques at least once per season. How often do you practice such things? Or do you take a course every year?
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 26, 2003, 4:13 AM
Post #55 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
While I agree that the mariner knot isn't obscure or obsolete, I would argue in favour of a munter mule. It's definately faster to tie and handles a loaded system very well. You can add or subtract mechanical advantage while constructing the system. It requires 2 caribiners and about 15 feet of 7 or 8 mil. If you choose to build it with just the climbing rope you have, then some larger biners would help. With a smaller or larger diameter rope, you will get more friction with the munter than with the two loops of the mariner. This is why I think that just the "book" method is less than optimal. If I were teaching a self rescue course, I would point this out. Is one better than the other? Maybe, maybe not, but at least I have some alternative rigging options.
While I have only once had to self rescue with me injured (mashed ankle) and with a partner, I've done some rescues of injured victims on the SAR team. Simply, you're pumped, the pressure is on, and you don't even know this person. Yet, you have to be calm and think clearly. It's far more difficult than you can imagine. It's one thing when I have an entire SAR team working with me, it is entirely another issue with just me and my mangled partner.
One other question. Great, so now you have the person tied off, and accessible, what now??? Is anybody here WFR certified, an EMT, or at the very least certified in basic first aid and CPR from either the red cross or the american heart association????? Granted this is a bit off topic, but is it??? There's a ton more to self rescue than just a few knots and systems you learn from a book. Being able to take classes from experienced people who have dealt with these types of situations in person is far better than anything you can learn out of any book.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 26, 2003, 5:14 AM
Post #56 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
socalclimber,
Interesting points about the munter mule. Although you need more stuff to make it by your method, it does eliminate a few problems that can happen with the mariner.
But I like the mariner cause all you need is a biner and a 4 foot sling. (that's anohter couple of things the book doesn't point out-- a four foot sling for a mariner and BE CERTAIN you make the two loops)
IT really depends on what you have with you doesn't it? The more options the better, I'm with you. After witnessing a serious fall in a remote area in a situation where any rescue would have been extremely difficult and lowering was not an option, I'm tossing "fast and light" out the window for "prepared for anything all the time".
Thanks for your comments on the rescue mindset. I think in rescue situations, or even in disaster prevention situations, some people go to pieces and others can focus and get the job done. Training can't hurt a bit.
Your comment about wfr or emt is absolutely on topic. Thanks again for a useful and informative post.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 26, 2003, 5:51 AM
Post #57 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Arrrrrrrrrrrggggggg. this fricken site keeps crashing and I just lost my post!!!
Anywho, I was a bit vague in my description of the munter/mule. You can build the munter/mule without any extra gear, just like the mariner (SP?). The munter/mule will give you more control because of the increased friction. It's rope on rope, not rope on biner.
The other system with the munter/mule I described is called the Radium Release Hitch. It's a rescue knot, but it would sure work in a self rescue system. Now part of my arsenal.
And, BTW, I'm WFR certified. I would suggest anyone who spends allot of time outdoors to do the same. Do you know how to make a sling for a broken arm with only a single saftey pin??? I do.
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 6:16 AM
Post #58 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: (that's anohter couple of things the book doesn't point out-- a four foot sling for a mariner and BE CERTAIN you make the two loops)
In reply to: I'm tossing "fast and light" out the window for "prepared for anything all the time".
BTW, the industrial fire fighting course is serious bad a$$ $h1t.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 26, 2003, 6:50 AM
Post #59 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
I really don't think anything here is all that complicated in it's own right. I just believe when you get instruction first hand, from soneone who has had to do it first hand, your all the better off.
Books rarely can begin to put the emphasis on something that an articulate and somewhat animated person can do.
I took my WFR course from the real deal. A good friend of mine who has been around, both climbing wise, and medically. When he described, in vivid detail, what cardiac victims look and act like while still conscious, it stuck. When I witnessed my first serious cardiac patient it all came flooding back. None of the descriptions I have ever read put the emphasis on the event like he did. That's what a good instructor can do that most books cannot.
Great thread by the way, it's really forcing me to think the issues through. Let's try to keep it civil. I am enjoying this!!! Lots of good opinions and responses.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 26, 2003, 1:20 PM
Post #60 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Agreed that rescue techniques are not complicated. Like my instructor said, Rescue is a series of small simple steps. But, you have to do them all absolutely right.
The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques is not the rescue book most people know about or read. That one would be the Fasulo book. And neither seem to make the comment that if you fail to make the two loops over the biner, there can be trouble, as in a sudden drop. In case you need to know WHY the 4 foot sling is good for the mariner, it's because you can lose control of it with a short sling when releasing the knot.
There, that's an example of what you would get from a good instructor.
But thanks for the title. On Rope is another good title, written by cavers but applicable to climbing and rescue.
OK socal, the Munter mule I've seen is always around a biner, and I never heard of the radium hitch, so where did you find em? I'll have to look at those.
|
|
|
|
|
thedesertnomad
Jun 26, 2003, 1:57 PM
Post #61 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2003
Posts: 216
|
All have made very good points here and I think that it is everybody's responsibility to learn at least the basics of self rescue and most importantly how to use that information in the "real world". From the beginning I have been self taught in climbing, I learned all my knots while hanging in a harness in the dark, so that if the "worst case scenario" truly came up, I felt I would be more prepared than if I just learned them from the comfort of a couch. Self rescue I treated the same way. After applying the knowledge that I mostly picked up from books, I did find out that one of my friends had become certified in many things and she did go over some of my techniques and let me know that I had the right idea. Yes, I would say that prof. instruction can help anyone, but I don't find it to be absolutely necessary. Experience and a controlled environment for testing ones abilities can be all "some" need. To each their own and I suppose it is up to each one of us to climb with, or NOT climb with people that do not meet our specific requirements.
As far as going light, I would have to agree with not doing so (for me) I have always been the one to carry the extra gear "just in case" I never climb without an ascender, a couple of prussik loops, and a small med kit in my camelback. The extra weight makes it a little tougher, but well worth it. As far as making a sling out of a safety pin... I would imagine that you need more than that... say that I drop you off NAKED with a broken arm and a safety pin in the desert... can you make a sling...lol for me, I carry a pre-made sling in my real med kit.
Thanks to all for the inputs on this thread and please take this one very very seriously.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 27, 2003, 1:36 AM
Post #62 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Well as far as the safety pin goes, my point was that you can make a perfectly good sling out of someones t-shirt just by grabbing the bottom rim of the shirt, pull it over the hand/wrist/lower arm, and pin it to the upper part of the shirt. Simple, now you have a sling. You don't need a triangle bandage. Yup, there may be that one time you encounter the "naked person" with a broken arm. Have you ever thought about creating a sling/splint out of branches, vines etc????? It works! I can build a traction splint out of just about nothing for a broken femur. Can you? This is not a contest, it's reality. I keep a pretty decent medical kit for back country, but it's not going to suffice 2+ hours away from real medical help.
I tend to speak in general about things. There is no way I would ever say that you can't learn things own your on. I have learned a ton of my climbing expertise on my own. I just know that the few times I have taken a course it has made all the difference in the world.
As far as the Radium Release Hitch. I will probably need to submit some pics. Give me a day or two, I may be able to find it on the net, but at worst case I can show different ways to build it!!!
Cool thread!
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 27, 2003, 4:12 AM
Post #63 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Ok as far a Robert’s question about First Aid, how many of you proponents of being prepared have actually taken a first aid course?
So far it is:
socalclimber = WFR
the_pirate = EMT
I let my wfr expire last year to but I am going to upgrade to an EMT this year
dirtintheeye ??? your a proponent of self rescue classes and first aid, yet apparently(implied) you haven’t bothered to take a first aid course?
more later
d.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 27, 2003, 12:31 PM
Post #64 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Yeah, I can't even begin to stress how important that WFR class could be for you some day. I plan on doing my re-cert. every year. There is allot of information to remember.
|
|
|
|
|
thedesertnomad
Jun 27, 2003, 1:13 PM
Post #65 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2003
Posts: 216
|
In reply to: Have you ever thought about creating a sling/splint out of branches, vines etc????? It works! I can build a traction splint out of just about nothing for a broken femur. Can you? Just so you know... I was totally kidding about that one, I knew what you meant with the safety pin, and yes, I can splint with the best of them. I was an instructor years ago for a scout ranch and have rescue diver and instructor certifucation for scuba I have unfortunately had to haul a couple of people off of a mountain and out of the woods. (p.s. I threw in the "desert" part of my humor to take the branch and vine equation out of the mixture, lol) No offense, I was just trying to add a slight amount of levity to a serious topic. As far as the Radium Release Hitch. I will probably need to submit some pics. Give me a day or two, I may be able to find it on the net, but at worst case I can show different ways to build it!!! I feel this would be a fantastic thing as well. I will see if I can find it in any of my books and if so, I will scan it and throw it up on the site. Cool thread! Robert |
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Jun 27, 2003, 4:01 PM
Post #66 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
In reply to: The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques is not the rescue book most people know about or read. That one would be the Fasulo book. And neither seem to make the comment that if you fail to make the two loops over the biner, there can be trouble, as in a sudden drop. In case you need to know WHY the 4 foot sling is good for the mariner, it's because you can lose control of it with a short sling when releasing the knot.
Fasulo botches the Mariner knot altogether IMO when he recommends girth hitching a second 2 ft runner to the Mariner runner. I have never been able to release a MK without the bump of the girth jamming so as to render the thing totally locked up. I'm a fan of the Munter mule. He also dodges the issue of passing a knot on a steep rap, but that's for another day.
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Jun 27, 2003, 4:57 PM
Post #67 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
I was lucky, the guy who taught me to climb also taught others self-rescue techniques and showed me a ton of stuff. My next partner for several years was an EMT, again, lots of cool lessons (and gross 2:00am phone calls on his way to an emergency). Haven't taken a particular course, but have had enough situations where playing McGyver was handy.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 27, 2003, 9:47 PM
Post #68 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Ok here is the Radium Release Hitch. It will be about halfway through the document. You don't need 33' of cord to make the knot. That's more specific to tech. rescue. Also, be careful how many times you wrap between the two biners. For tech. rescue loads we go twice, but we have much bigger loads than a normal self rescue. Would I use this in a self rescue, hard to say, but at least I have that option. I refer to it as the Atomic Cluster Fuck Knot because I found it a little difficult to tie and remember the sequence. Anywho, have fun!
http://www.ridgenet.net/...e/StretcherRevE.html
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Jun 28, 2003, 2:00 AM
Post #69 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
So the Radium is nothing but a Munter with some mechanical advantage thrown in - I can buy that. Can't do it with climbing rope though.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 28, 2003, 4:13 AM
Post #70 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Yup, that pretty much sums it up. The rescue techies like to use impressive names for pretty basic systems. It definately has it's uses. It definately works nicely for docking haul bags.
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 28, 2003, 4:45 AM
Post #71 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Gunkiemike, thanks for another point on the side of books can't teach you everything LOL.
Socal, thanks for finding that.
Hey if you guys post those pics, I'll post my neato way to tie the figure 8 with two easily equalised loops for clipping to anchors. I'm sure others have figured it out, it isn't that difficult, but the methods in books are always too complicated, and this one is really simple and worth knowing.
Alpinep**sy, nice try. No soap. And as usual, your grasp of logic is seriously lacking, but your trolling is a bit above mediocre. Go play in the street and stop trying to screw up a decent thread. Oh yeah, your grammar sucks too putz.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 6:26 AM
Post #72 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
off topic
|
|
|
|
|
straightedgeteen
Jun 28, 2003, 7:27 AM
Post #73 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 8, 2002
Posts: 367
|
In reply to: I was out practicing self rescue techinques at Indian Rock yesterday. Confounded the boulderers to nothing else. One guy's like, "What's the giant pack for?" I told him I didn't have a crash pad, so it would have to do. Anyway, a lot of folks were totally entertained by me leaping off rappels with autoblocks and stuff. I never really did much practice with these things (except learn the knots) until now, and I realize the value of knowing these things and how to apply them to situations. That said, seems like I don't know anyone else who trad climbs and has either taught themselves or practiced these techniques. Why not?
I want to learn more about self rescue
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 28, 2003, 2:36 PM
Post #74 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
In reply to: Hey if you guys post those pics, I'll post my neato way to tie the figure 8 with two easily equalised loops for clipping to anchors. I'm sure others have figured it out, it isn't that difficult, but the methods in books are always too complicated, and this one is really simple and worth knowing.
The double figure 8 you are refering to has a double bowline counterpart. I find the double bowline easier to adjust. I need to verify this, but as I understand it, the double figure 8 loses a fair amount of strength once tied. I will go re-check my source today. As a general rule, I prefer having around 3 to 5 extra shoulder length slings, and at least 6 spare biners, on me when I do long trad routes. These are my personal. You can pretty much rig about anything you will need to build belays, simple ascending systems, belay escapes or what have you. While I have used the climbing rope to build anchors and such, I prefer to leave it available.
By the way, since we are talking about rigging stuff out of thin air, how many of you know how to build the Yosemite 6????
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 3:29 PM
Post #75 of 109
(5774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Btw. Robert this is a really nice thread, mostly thanks to you.
side note: did you put up some heinous old school routes in red rocks?
|
|
|
|
|
|
