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fenix83
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Mar 25, 2004, 12:22 AM
Post #51 of 59
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Although I agree with your basic statement that art, and artistically utilized language can allow us to vicariously relive another persons experiences, I think you are giving words more power than they actually have. The perfect example of this on a different scale is the inability of limbers to accurately describe the emotions/rush of peaking a hard climb, or just how scared you were the first time a piece of pro you placed got torn off the wall in a whipper. Humans have the ability to convey emotion through their words, but I think it is naive to presume that we can grasp the full range of emotions/thought processes/subconscious responses of an experience merely by reading about it. No matter how good the writing, or how thorough the description you will never know the reality of an experience, not only because the picture painted is incomplete at best, but because the same event is experienced very differently by different people. Who knows what was actually going through Simon’s head at that moment; and even if we could know for sure it would not be what would go through your head or mine in the same situation.
All of this is not to say there is no value in the experiences transferred through language and art, just that their ability to transport us there is limited not only by the constraints of the author’s ability, but by the constraints of language as a logical tool to describe emotions, which are often, for lack of a better word, illogical; and by the subjectivity with which different individuals perceive the same events.
JMHO.
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ajoys
Mar 25, 2004, 2:39 AM
Post #52 of 59
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In reply to: He didn't pass the knot for the same reason Joe droped his prusik cord, they were both freezing to death. Without an anchor, or even a good stance, And with fingers like wood their was nothing that he could have done. Knowing how to do something and actualy doing it with frozen fingers, while sitting on a colapsing death perch are totally diferent.
Did he even try or did he just make a decision based on his own experience and evaluation of the situation that it wasn't possible or was he just so scared that he refused to try and no longer cared about his partners life? I really need to go see the movie and read the book.
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hikerken
Mar 25, 2004, 6:40 AM
Post #53 of 59
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In reply to: Acorrding to the book there was a knot to pass. Wheather it could have been done without having an appropriate anchor I seriously would doubt. I looked down at the slack rope being fed through the belay plate. Twenty feet below I spotted the knot coming steadily twoards me. I began swearing, trying to urge Joe to touch down on to something solid. At ten feet I stopped lowering. The Pressure on the rope hadn't changed.
You know...you are right, about this. The situation was that Yates was in the middle (approx) of the two ropes tied together. He had a whole additional rope below (above) the knot. I concede that passing the knot was the crux.
However, as I read the passage following what you've quoted, I see him struggling with that exact issue....how to pass the knot. The problem was that Joe was supposed to take his weight off the rope, so that Yates could pass the knot and continue lowering, as they had done 9 times previously.
As he describes fairly well, he could not close his hand. His description of his thoughts about escaping the belay do not include description of prussiks, which makes me think that he may not have had them. Joe tries to use them, below, but drops one, and cannot get one attached, because his hands are so impared.
I agree with your thought about how to deal with the situation, ideally. Problem is, I don't think Yates was physically capable, or equipped to do it.
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xprompt
Mar 28, 2004, 1:59 AM
Post #54 of 59
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i agree with simons decision....
yet again i disagree.
Hope i helped you!!!
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goob3r
Mar 6, 2006, 8:16 AM
Post #55 of 59
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In reply to: did anyone else feel like they were watching Wallace and Gromett every time Simon started talking?
you know.. it may have just been a coincidence but I did start craving cheese at one point.
Awesome movie.
I'm not going to judge one way or another on this dumb debate. You honestly can't...and therefore shouldn't until you find yourself in the same situation.
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kricir
Mar 6, 2006, 9:25 AM
Post #56 of 59
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I think that we must remember the situation they were in. With the benefit of hindsight, life and death decisions can easily be over analyzed, but come on, they were alpine climbing, on a big, mean, mother of a mountain at that. When you go for a climb like that, you give up control of the situation to your surroundings. your options are completely dependent on your current situation. The future is completely uncertain at all times. Accidents like theirs provide many lessons that others can use in the future. My thoughts on what those lessons are as follows:
In a rescue lower situation like that one, have the injured climber pre attach prussics / ascenders (like in glacier travel) in case they have to climb back up.
try not to lower off of something you cant see down, especially late in the day, and if you have no anchor.
If you fall, even a short distance, have your knees slightly bent (If Joe’s knees were bent, I think he would of been uninjured by his fall) It may not be possible to make a decision that fast, so it is better to program the reaction to bend your knees in a fall into your subconscious, so you just do it. I almost broke both my ankles in a trad fall, had my knees been bent it would have just been like any other safe fall.
Always carry a knife and be able to get to it to cut out of the system. Obviously this is last resort. Think of the disaster on Mt Hood (the one with the helicopter crash). It was like vertical limit, a falling party got tangled up in other parties ropes, dragging every one off. If only those innocent parties could of cut the ropes and self arrested, it wouldn't of been so bad. (On some routes, you need to be ready to dodge falling noobs)
don’t climb dangerous, long, and difficult routes with out a partner that you deeply trust on every level. Just like Joe said, there are times in climbing when you are solely dependent on your partner.
I am no one to judge what Simon did, but I agree that he made the right choice giving the circumstance he was in. Its a hell of a story they have, In my opinion, not only one of the greatest survival stories in climbing, but in all of human history as well.
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azrockclimber
Mar 6, 2006, 1:47 PM
Post #57 of 59
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In reply to: You know. I'm going to say that unless you have been on a mountain in serious danger and were put into a similar sitution, you really have no grounds to even speculate on the decision made by Yates. There's a big diference between climbing crags, and climbing mountains. I think that this lost on the new climbing generation.
I agree that there is a HUGE difference..However,
I have no big mountain experience and it seems quite clear to me that the option that he chose was the only one left to him. Any other course of action seemed, to me, to be an instant death sentence.
Is this type of speculation OK? I don't need big mountain experience to know what sounds like a fairly sound decision given the unimaginable conditions.... super loose snow, serious ass storm, scary "belay" seat, majorly dehydrated, zero communication... I felt like I was reading a nightmare.
Everyone has a right to speculate. They may just be seriously wrong in the eyes of experienced mountaineers.
JMHO
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tgreene
Mar 6, 2006, 2:52 PM
Post #58 of 59
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Registered: Oct 22, 2003
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1) It was dark without the ability to see or hear anything, and they were lost in unchartered terrain.
2) Simon had held Joe's dead weight for several hours already, w/o any movement or even the slightest response that could indicate Joe was anything other than dead.
3) Simon was in fact being pulled towards the lip.
4) It was impossible to know whether Joe was 3 feet off the ground, or 3000 feet. (see #1)
5) If Simon had passed the knot, then had to cut away, he would have been left high atop a ledge, with no rope and no way down. Even if Joe had still been able to crawl back as he did, by the time he returned, Simon would have certainly been dead.
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heiko
Mar 6, 2006, 3:19 PM
Post #59 of 59
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Registered: Mar 3, 2005
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You should have shown more care and revived this thread exactly two years after the last post, not just in the same month. Sloppy work. ;)
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