|
deltav
Jun 17, 2006, 7:02 PM
Post #76 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
And another thing, the original post was regarding the quality of the climbing program of the BSA. Who was the dumb ass that turned this into a moral debate anyway. Obviously they could not comment on the climbing program, so they chose to slam scouting in some other way. Talk about inconsistent logic...
|
|
|
|
|
escalabrasil
Jun 17, 2006, 11:38 PM
Post #77 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2005
Posts: 51
|
"No, homosexual does not equal pedophile anymore than Man=rapist. However, it does indicate a sexual instability."
That is f-ing ridiculous. Thanks for sharing your vast knowledge of the homosexual person's psyche. By the way, what the hell does sexual instabilty even mean? A person may be really sexually stable (whatever that means), with great morals, but simply be more attracted to people of the same sex.
Homosexualism implies simply that a person is attracted to people of the same sex. That's it. To make any other assumptions regarding that person's character and integrity (and sexual stability) simply based on this is very ignorant and idiotic and shows a complete lack of compassion toward other people.
I have a lot of respect for most of the things the Scouts do and teach and it saddens me to see that some of their members have such backwards, ignorant opinions. Every homosexual I've ever met has turned out to be a very psychologically and sexually healthy individual with simply different tastes as far as sexual partners go than myself.
You should all watch the Boy Scout "South Park" episode...but don't take it that seriously...
|
|
|
|
|
escalabrasil
Jun 17, 2006, 11:40 PM
Post #78 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2005
Posts: 51
|
Also, I apologize for continuing the moral debate when this thread really was about their climbing program, which I find to be really outstanding...I couldn't control myself after some of the things I read and I'm sorry.
|
|
|
|
|
the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 12:47 AM
Post #79 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 347
|
I would say sexualy unstable, would be similar to any other emotional instability. Rediculous? Politically Incorrect? maybe. But by that standard ANY mental condition, or emotional instability, should not be mentioned, as you might offend somebody, for suggesting that they aren't "normal".
Instead you must pretend that it doesn't exist, after all denial is the first step to true moral, and political freedom right? We could debate all day long the moral ramifications and 'normalcy' of homosexuality. But you're not going to change your mind about it, any more than you're going to change my mind, so it's really pointless.
Whether or not you agree that there is something unnatural, and a bit 'off' about homosexuality, you cannot deny a private group the right to have a system of standards that they follow. No matter how unfair it may seem to you. The BSA is a voluntary program, and anybody who chooses to participate does just that. They CHOOSE to. Just as anybody wanting to join your an anti BSA group may CHOOSE to. And neither I nor any other BSA member has the right to dictate what you may and may not do in that group. In fact, i would guess that your little group might require people to quit BSA to join up... 'BUT BUT BUT! you can't do that! That's forcing your beliefs on somebody else!'
I find it somewhat ironic that YOU want to force YOUR beliefs and moral system on not only someone else, but an entire group of people. Talk about hipocracy!
|
|
|
|
|
secretagent
Jun 18, 2006, 1:19 AM
Post #80 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 15, 2006
Posts: 99
|
eagle scout all the way
|
|
|
|
|
escalabrasil
Jun 18, 2006, 1:25 AM
Post #81 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2005
Posts: 51
|
Dude, you misunderstood.
I totally agree with you on some points. I would never want to force my beliefs on the Scouts and I completely agree that you guys have the right to keep homosexuals out of your private group (by the way, I don't really have my own "little group"....and that's not how you spell hypocrisy).
Your post was really confusing, so my answer might not clarify everything, but, oh well...like you said, we're not going to change each other's mind so this will be my last post on this topic.
I only took issue with you equating homosexuals to people with emotional instabilities. That's not just politically incorrect, it's just incorrect...period. Most homosexual people are emotionally stable and healthy. In fact, being homosexual has absolutely nothing to do with emotional stability.
It's perfectly fine for you to think that being homosexual isn't "normal", like you said. But the only thing about being homosexual that isn't "normal" is their sexual preference, which is completely unrelated to their emotional stability.
And being a psychology student, I definitely don't think discussing emotional stabilities is wrong, or that it will offend someone, I'm just saying that homosexuality is not an emotional instability, just a personal preference. Man, this is giving me a headache...
Anyway, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you (which I don't think I did). I want to say again that I have a lot of respect for what the Scouts do and would never ask them to change any of their policies based on my opinions, but I also would argue that psychology is a long ways from considering homosexuality a mental, emotional, or sexual instability.
|
|
|
|
|
escalabrasil
Jun 18, 2006, 1:28 AM
Post #82 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2005
Posts: 51
|
Damnit, I hijacked the thread again...I'm really sorry...
I agree, the scouts have a great climbing program...there, that wasn't so controversial, was it?
|
|
|
|
|
the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 1:52 AM
Post #83 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 347
|
Deleted. (Double post.)
|
|
|
|
|
the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 2:00 AM
Post #84 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 347
|
Okay, maybe that was a bit incoherent, and thanks for the spelling correction. Bad grammar and spelling are a couple of my pet peeves, so I apologize. By the word "you" I was referring to ALL of the people who are posting anti BSA posts. Not intended at you personally, and probably an unfair generalization. Your "little group" was part of that generalization. Completely hypotheticaly were all of the Anti BSA people to form a little club, they would probably exclude BSA members and pro BSA persons. Again, not aimed at you as a person, but you as a group. But you don't sympathize with such a group, so again, an unfair generalization. You are not included in that group. (in fact they will be taking back their membership card at any moment.) :wink:
I was not saying that homosexuals are emotionally imbalanced in any other way than sexually. Animals in the wild are not homosexual because they operate and make decisions based on instinct rather than emotion. Therefore it could be reasoned, that unnatural sexual appetites are a result of some underlying emotional issue. Again, this could be argued all day long, with no change in opinion on either side.
By your standard, of varying sexual appetites all being "normal" and simply "different" How do you draw the distinction of a pedophile from "normal" sexuality? It is an unnatural sexual appetite, stemming from emotional instabilities. Or is that not so? Perhaps you can give me a quick overview of Psych. 101. Also what is your standard for deciding which unnatural sexual appetites are good, or bad? Ethical or unethical This of course assumes that you recognize pedophilia as an unhealthy sexual appetite. ...perhaps even a sexual instability?
If you are not interested in posting further on this topic, feel free to pm me, as I truly am interested in hearing your viewpoints. I honestly am not arguing with you for the sake of argument. It would seem that you are seeking education in the psych field, and I would be more than interested in trying to better understand the viewpoints that this has given you.
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Jun 18, 2006, 2:14 AM
Post #85 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
iceman:
The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia is simple: one is a consensual act (presumably) between two adults. Pedophilia, to me, implies that one person is not consenting (the child/teenager), and that they are certainly not capable of making that decision for themselves, since they are underage and probably intimidated by an adult.
The difference is CONSENT, and that is the difference between an act that is IMMORAL and an act that is MORALLY OKAY as far as I'm concerned. It's just like the question of sex versus rape.....rape is bad, sex is fine. There's a difference and you're muddying the water.
I was a Boy Scout, I AM an Eagle Scout, and I'm still ashamed of the Boy Scouts' stance on this. It's their right, but then no one should get up in arms when the United Way cuts off their funding, because that is the United Ways' choice, as a PRIVATE GROUP. There is moralizing going on on both sides, and it needs to quit, as far as I'm concerned.
And since you live in Utah, I can tell you that if I ever see your car with a "Support Amendment 3" sticker on it, I'll have to ask you why you are forcing YOUR beliefs on SOMEONE ELSE, just like you accused escalabrasil of doing.
Edited: to moderate my tone somewhat.
|
|
|
|
|
escalabrasil
Jun 18, 2006, 2:17 AM
Post #86 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2005
Posts: 51
|
Thanks for that last post, iceman. Makes me believe there are some people in rc.com capable of having a rational, calm debate on a controversial issue.
I definitely didnt want to just argue either, I'm always most interested and learn the most from people whose opinions differ from mine the most.
I definitely think pedophillia is abnormal behavior, and emotionally unstable because it hurts other people and there is no consent. Homosexuality does not hurt anyone.
I will definitely PM you at some time to share my opinions a little more. I just think we've hijacked this thread long enough. :)
PS- there are lots of accounts of homosexuality in animals in the wild. just do a quick search (wait. on second thought, that might not be the best idea. hehe)
|
|
|
|
|
npompa1
Jun 18, 2006, 2:48 AM
Post #87 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 20, 2006
Posts: 7
|
I read the first page of threads and was going to weigh in on some of the boy scout debate so i clicked to the last page of threads to see where the conversation had gone and ended up reading the pedophilia vs. homosexual debate and then the hijacked thread comments....i think hijacked threads are ok because if we all just stuck to the typical thread topic we'd read the same thing every day. there is only so much we can talk about in climbing.
back to the boy scout thing. I have worked at Eastern Mountian Sports for about 3 years and learned that people should be careful about who they choose to supervise their children and in what settings. I have met many serious scout leaders who know what they are doing and have learned some important things from them. However, i have also met scout leaders who take kids into the mountains in the winter and have no clue what they are doing. I met one scout leader who recomended his kids wear cotton shirts and and jeans when overnight camping in winter........ anyway, if your a scout or the parent of a scout don't blindly trust their leadership!!! pay attention, do other research whether it be camping or climbing anchors they are setting up!!
|
|
|
|
|
deltav
Jun 18, 2006, 2:52 AM
Post #88 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
So pedophilia is OK if the child consents...? WTF? If consent is the only standard to judge these things on than there is far more at stake than the morals of the BSA
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Jun 18, 2006, 2:57 AM
Post #89 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
In reply to: So pedophilia is OK if the child consents...? WTF? If consent is the only standard to judge these things on than there is far more at stake than the morals of the BSA
The point was that a child CANNOT consent. A. I assume they would not. B. Even if they "did," they do not understand the consequences/actions or C. They are intimidated because the pedophile is an adult.
Like statutory rape? There's an age of consent. That was my point....pedophilia is ALWAYS wrong. But there IS a difference between it and homosexuality and trying to equate the two is not only politically incorrect (who gives a fuck?), but simply wrong. Not to mention "bigoted" and "closed-minded."
|
|
|
|
|
wyrdrocks
Jun 18, 2006, 3:33 AM
Post #90 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2006
Posts: 66
|
Back on topic...the BSA's climbing program, like many parts of the organization itself, is only as good as the people putting forth the effort. I am an Eagle Scout, and I taught climbing as part of a High Adventure program during summer camp for 7 years.
A little off topic... It still remains one of the best experiences of my life, but during that time, I saw too many scouts and leaders who did not chose to be there. It is these people that give the BSA such a bad reputation. They are the ones we read about stealing peoples gear, throwing rocks and being jerks at the crag, and other places.
And back again... as for the merit badge itself, I feel it is structured well, but could use improvement. Maybe a little more on the different types of climbing would be nice, and something needs to be put in about rescue techniques. But I still love this badge, and the BSA.
|
|
|
|
|
up_up_up
Jun 18, 2006, 3:43 AM
Post #91 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2006
Posts: 69
|
ay, im a boy scout, actually i got my eagle a few years back. I recieved the rock climbing mb and thats what started me into this sport! scouts is actually a very good porgram, i taught me a lot and is going to help me and has already given me an edge against others in jobs, knowledge and experience, i did a lot of camping, hiking, climbing and outdoor stuff,
yeah the uniforms are a lil gay, but i think its well worth it!
|
|
|
|
|
the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 3:45 AM
Post #92 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 347
|
Once again, my words being changed and turned on me. Pedophilia just as homosexuality, is a sexual tendency. Not an action. Not all pedophiles molest children.
Yet it would still be agreed, that child molestor or not, it is still an unhealthy and unnatural apetite. I'm not aware of any truely homosexual instances in the wild. There is the occasional homosexual encounter. ie. dogs humping eachother, but as far as a true homosexual animal, I have never heard of anything. I would be very interested to hear more about this. No I don't want to do any searches that include the words "homosexual" and "animal" lol. Are there any documented instances of a truely homosexual animal? Furthermore, what about a species that remains monagomous, such as a penguin?
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Jun 18, 2006, 3:48 AM
Post #93 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
In reply to: Once again, my words being changed and turned on me. Pedophilia just as homosexuality, is a sexual tendency. Not an action. Not all pedophiles molest children. Yet it would still be agreed, that child molestor or not, it is still an unhealthy and unnatural apetite. I'm not aware of any truely homosexual instances in the wild. There is the occasional homosexual encounter. ie. dogs humping eachother, but as far as a true homosexual animal, I have never heard of anything. I would be very interested to hear more about this. No I don't want to do any searches that include the words "homosexual" and "animal" lol. Are there any documented instances of a truely homosexual animal? Furthermore, what about a species that remains monagomous, such as a penguin?
What does that matter? There are no animals that eat with forks in the wild, so it is immoral to do it?
|
|
|
|
|
rhaig
Jun 18, 2006, 4:43 AM
Post #94 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2006
Posts: 2179
|
In reply to: And back again... as for the merit badge itself, I feel it is structured well, but could use improvement. Maybe a little more on the different types of climbing would be nice, and something needs to be put in about rescue techniques. But I still love this badge, and the BSA.
keep in mind that merit badges are supposed to give an introduction into the topic to the scout. Hopefully the scout will find one or more badges that they carry on the activity the rest of their lives.
The counselor for the badges can add material as they see fit. They cannot add requirements, but they can add material. Add in a discussion of different types of climbing. Discuss rescues, but since rescues beyond self rescue are rather advanced, they probably go beyond the scope of a merit badge.
Put together a proposed update to the program and send it in to BSA training. It sounds like you're proposing a "discuss" requirement. Not a big deal.
|
|
|
|
|
the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 6:00 AM
Post #95 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 347
|
Animals, also do not eat emotionally. Are you saying that homosexuality is some sort of advancement, as the use of tools is? Monkies, use sticks to catch ant's and eat them. Does that count?
The purpose that post was not to say that all things that do not occur in nature are immoral. But they are results of emotional thought processes. If you insist on being obtuse and taking everything said out of context, instead of using a rational thought process, maybe you should go eat some ants off a stick. If you want to have a reasonable debate, try pretending to have rational thought processes.
"but, but, but! You said monkies eat ants, are you trying to say that gay people are just a bunch of ant eating monkies?"
...maybe :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
corona
Jun 18, 2006, 6:42 AM
Post #96 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2003
Posts: 35
|
Hmm, how did a topic about the BSA and climbing steer off into a discussion about the morality of homosexuality? I suppose it must be what's most on folks' minds these days when they think of the Scouts.
I got my Eagle at eighteen, but I never did any climbing with my troop--probably because there's not a lot of climbing in Indiana. We did a bit of abseiling, but that's about it. About the time the scandal blew up, I left my troop to go to university and have never gone back. I respect the legal right of a private organisation to discriminate against GLBTQ people; as the owner of an outdoor ed. organisation, I want to preserve the same right to bar aggressive bigots from the programmes we run if I have to. Although I respect the BSA's rights, they no longer share my values and I can't ethically work with the organisation any longer.
But I find one common theme in this thread far more disturbing than the discussion about the morality of homsexuality. Why are all the Eagles referencing Christian values and morality. The Scouts are not and have not been a christian organisation for more than a century. In fact, the BSA prides themselves on openness and acceptance of adherents of all faiths--hence the scandal about the dismissal of atheists and agnostics. To all the scouts out there: not all scouts share the same Christian values as you may--there are Jewish, Bah'ai, Buddhist, Moslem, Hindu, and Oriya scouts out there and we don't always have the same core values. We are not all the same and through scouting we hope to develop respect or at least tolerance for those differences. My troop of twenty scouts was in the backwaters of the bible belt, but we had two Jewish and one Moslem members--something that enriched all of us, I think.
As for overzealous safety in climbing, all I can say is that it's a miracle no kids get killed every day I see the local troops setting up top rope anchors on pro at Devil's Lake. It's gotta be proof of the existence of a higher power. :deadhorse:
|
|
|
|
|
wyrdrocks
Jun 18, 2006, 6:49 AM
Post #97 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2006
Posts: 66
|
Yes Rhaig, a discussion requirement with some demos by the instruct er is what I meant. When I was involved with the summer camp program, we has the staff members perform a mock rescue, and did an introductory demonstration the uses and applications of cams, nuts and quick-draws. Another thing we tried to teach was climber etiquette.
Any one else have anyhting they would like to see added or removed from the merit badge?
|
|
|
|
|
the_iceman
Jun 18, 2006, 7:04 AM
Post #98 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 347
|
I think the only people bringing Christianity into it were those who are Anti BSA/Anti BSA policy. A bunch of fodder about the mormon church... The way it turns into a debate, is that as soon as somebody hears mention of the BSA there are enough people foaming at the mouth to attack the BSA that they jump all over it.
The morality of homosexuality is a rather large part of that debate, since the Scouts stance on it is centered around the belief that the practice of homosexual lifestyles is immoral. Many people who cannot reasonably debate the validity of a system of morals, simply try to play it off as religion's way of justifying their beliefs, so they then turn to bashing religion.
Christianity is the most readily available target since it's the most widely practiced in most countries, so more people are framiliar with it, and they've learned a few flashwords to bash Christianity (mostly pulled from the bible, and taken out of context)...
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Jun 18, 2006, 8:26 AM
Post #99 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
Iceman:
I resent being called irrational by someone who can't
see the irrationality of their own "thought
processes." I admit my last post was a bit of a
joke....simply pointing out that I don't think you or
I know enough about biology to state that
homosexuality is some sort of horrible abnormality.
To be perfectly frank, I resent that implication
because I live with my sister who is homosexual, and
she doesn't seem too fucked up to me. In fact, we
live in a quiet neighborhood Utah, so we might be your
neighbors! Oh the horror!
The entire purpose of my original post, if you'll
remember, was to state that pedophiles and homosexuals
are not even in the same ballpark.
Let me ask you, do you support amendment 3 in Utah?
That's all I really want to know. Do you support an
amendment that restricts marriage to a union between a
man and a woman?
My point will become much more clear after that.
Iceman:
I resent being called irrational by someone who can't
see the irrationality of their own "thought
processes." I admit my last post was a bit of a
joke....simply pointing out that I don't think you or
I know enough about biology to state that
homosexuality is some sort of horrible abnormality.
To be perfectly frank, I resent that implication
because I live with my sister who is homosexual, and
she doesn't seem too fucked up to me. In fact, we
live in a quiet neighborhood Utah, so we might be your
neighbors! Oh the horror!
The entire purpose of my original post, if you'll
remember, was to state that pedophiles and homosexuals
are not even in the same ballpark.
Let me ask you, do you support amendment 3 in Utah?
That's all I really want to know. Do you support an
amendment that restricts marriage to a union between a
man and a woman?
My point will become much more clear after that.
|
|
|
|
|
porcelainsunset
Jun 18, 2006, 8:45 AM
Post #100 of 144
(12274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2005
Posts: 289
|
I started on that Merit Badge like 7 years ago. It was a great foundation to start off on. That was the best merit badge I ever got!
|
|
|
|
|
|
