Like this hasn't been discussed to death. And you end your post with peace? Wouldn't a more apropriate salutation be, incoming.

I agree but to clarify there is no ONE Yosemite style and ethic. There are lots of sport routes there and all sorts of sordid things have been done to her walls, ina few cases by the stern participants of that thread.

What is increasingly clear to many of the oldsters is that a new generation doesn't seem to respect the old ways as much as the old ones did and still do. So the argument tends to get painted with a little panic perhaps, or maybe depression is the better word.

My own take is this... those climbers who do things that show disrespect to their local community will eventually karma-up and have that disrespect returned from those who come after.

whats there to read? wow half of it was rap bolted half on lead correct?

it was a hard decision to make for the dudes right?

big deal. there is no right answer to this. Im gonna go out right now and rap bolt a new line in the valley then never tell anybody...

Then I suppose the follow up question would be this: "If there is no ONE style for putting up FAs in Yosemite, who are we to criticize?" That is, couldn't an FA party simply say "We chose to follow in adherence with a different ethic than the "Ground up, drill on lead" ethic."?

Dingus, I've not climbed in Yosemite (someday, I hope... someday,) and if I understand correctly, you have. Comments?

I suppose that has validity, but then again it doesn't. After all, at one time we did long division with a slide rule. Calculators made it easier, more accurate, and gave a more pure answer. Couldn't the same logic apply here?

Good words, that.

Do us all a favor and place the first 1/2" x 3 1/2" bolt in the middle of your forehead.

Curt

sorry that isnt long long enough to get through my thick skull, KURT.

don't call me bro, toast man.

At one time yes the Valley-ethic, if you will, was more self-contained and more mono-lithic. This style/ethic was built over time and founded on very deep respect for those who came before. But at once there has always been the sort of cowboy tude of the FA team decides.

Robbins and the so-called Valley Christians I guess formalized this ethic for a while and a notorious few (with the emphasis on few) bucked that standard - ground up first and foremost. With a lot of the other trad stuff we all know and love thrown in.

In the 70s the next generation, Stonemasters led by Bridwell and others, continued this pure style but at the same time more transgressions went down. Bridwell famously rap bolted Wheat Thin, aggressive head techniques were developed on the walls, etc.

It takes a history lesson to fully understand it, this seemingly never-ending turmoil around style and ethics.

In the 80s the great rap bolting 'war' went down. Bachar was punched in the jaw, Kauk was considered a traitor for a time. But slowly rap bolting did occur, here and there, on certain crags not suitable for ground up climbing, sandwiched here and there.

But El Cap and Half Dome, they don't have top-down routes. Or didn't. And in particular, on the south and southwest face of Half Dome, a quarter century of boldness had established some of the most demanding ground up big wall routes ever opened in the Valley.

There are many kinds of difficulty in wall climbing - hard aid, boulder moves in the skyu, or as in the case of Half Dome, RUNNOUT climbing at a high free standard.

Routes like Autobahn, Karma and Southern Belle were opened by the likes of talent that to this day, TO THIS DAY, in this country can be counted ON ONE HAND.

These guys risked their lives in the practice of something they loved deeply. Sure ego is involved, how could it not be. But too, their approaches were built on that deep founded and deep felt respect. And on their routes, Middendorf, Cosgrove, Shultz, Shipley and a few others were making some of the boldest statements ever made in the valley. They put their asses on the line.

The Valley and valley climbers have shown they can tolerate diversity. There are hard sport routes there, well tolerated and frequently climbed. But that granite isn't really suited for the sort of gymnastic stuff a lot of sport climbers seek out today.

Also consider the history of El Cap, the legendary men and women who have climbed it, who have died on it.... doing ground up routes. Again, transgressions have happened and questionable things have gone down. But through it all a ground up mentality has been pretty much the cornerstone of the style.

So in the last 20 years a sort of detente has happened, where 'local ethics' was redefined at the crag and cliff level - top down accepted over there on crag x, but not over here on crag Y.

Not a formal set of rules, not a bunch of crag police - that's what a lot of people just don't get. Its common and mutual respect, happening one climber and one team, one route at a time.

So sure, some team can come in tomorrow and start at the top of El Cap and work their way down, perhaps opening the world's longest sport route in the process.

But the outrage would be loud. It would come from the core. It would come from the park service. It would come from the Sierra Club. And it would come not from dozens hut HUNDREDS of Yosemite climbers who might be perfectly happy to open and clip sport routes elsewhere all the live long day.

The north carolina dude was snide about it but yes, Yosemite IS a climbing museum. Funny, that getting criticism from North Carolina.... Looking Glass has had mini versions of the same drama played out too.

Very long explanation but not long enough by half a book. Its the very history of the place - once you know it and begin to understand it viscerally, by repeating the stout routes of guys who came and went 30, 40 even 50 years ago, you either have to have respect for it or you don't.

And those who don't, who display a disrespect for that history, will be dispareged. The Huber Bros came as sport climbers but embraced that history and did not attempt to "Euro" El Cap. And thus they eearned respect in return.

The other thing I think is important for outsiders and punters like me to remember is Doug Robinson is no outsider himself and Sean has opened dozens of new routes in the valley. These guys are local though not of the same tribe it seems as the guys I mentioned above.

So, who are WE to criticize? We are Yosemite climbers, that's who - loose knit, no formal rules, oral traditions abound, and no one will shut us up. Its our area and we each have the tribal right to speak our minds. But ours is a system that only comes into play BEFORE the next route goes in. Chopping isn't the WAY. Influence is. Not preaching, THOU SHALT NOT.... rather, TEACH the history, foster the respect, and let the minds and the hearts of subsequent generations find their own harmony and tune with the giants that preceeded them.

I may never make it to Yosemite but this story, or actually the stories of Karma and Southern Belle, have inspired me to seek out my own adventure

First of all, don't be disrespecting the toaster like that. That goes for Curt too. They are both immensely more wise on a vast scale than you and you could learn much by listening to what they have to say and pondering it for a moment. Don't make me thump your fukkin skull. You have a right to your own opinion but I suggest you learn more about the history of climbing, the players involved and more importantly the history of Yosemite. Then go there and see that history unfold beneath your hands and feet before you begin to formulate an opinion. Your life as a climber will be richer and more well informed no matter what opinion you develope.

If you didn't read this, read it. If you did, read it again.

Well said post. If you ever make it out here, drop me a line and I'll give you the grand tour.

This is a pretty natural occurence in more than just climbing and often has a lot to do with the "old timer's" receptiveness to the newer generation when they're young and impressionable. Maybe it's a whole karmic circle.

It's like everyone is what's wrong with climbing today.

First, you have to want to understand the difference. If you don't want to understand then your question is more of a dismissal. Is that it?
...
Now you (not the literal YOU my man) may not respect those who went up that wall first. You may not respect their motives nor their means. Many younger generation climbers don't even know the history of the wall so how could that have any respect for how it was done?

The north carolina dude was snide about it but yes, Yosemite IS a climbing museum. Funny, that getting criticism from North Carolina.... Looking Glass has had mini versions of the same drama played out too.

Dingus,

I love the Valley, and Half Dome in particular, even if I haven't been there in years. And I do want to understand. Why is it OK to blast in a bolt ladder, or a rivet ladder, or drill bat hook holes, as long as you're ground up? Where is the 'commitment' in that?

Any fool with a drill and enough patience can bolt-ladder his way up a slab... If SJ and DR had done that, would there have been such a ruckus? I feel like there should have been, but I doubt that there would have. Gazing at an El Cap topo I see rivet ladders on almost every route done in the last 15 years, and yet I don't remember any recent controversy about them.

So any means is justified, as long as you start from the bottom?

The whole thing just reeks of hypocrisy to me.

Isn't it amazing to think that when asked if the Norse would ever be repeated Warren Harding said that he wouldn't believe that anyone would go through all that effort for the second accent.

Unlike their forefathers, the developers of this route recognized that they are not alone it the climbing world and they put up a route that is a reflection of this.

Dingus,

I love the Valley, and Half Dome in particular, even if I haven't been there in years. And I do want to understand. Why is it OK to blast in a bolt ladder, or a rivet ladder, or drill bat hook holes, as long as you're ground up? Where is the 'commitment' in that?

Why is it OK to blast in a bolt ladder, or a rivet ladder, or drill bat hook holes, as long as you're ground up? Where is the 'commitment' in that?

Any fool with a drill and enough patience can bolt-ladder his way up a slab... If SJ and DR had done that, would there have been such a ruckus? I feel like there should have been, but I doubt that there would have. Gazing at an El Cap topo I see rivet ladders on almost every route done in the last 15 years, and yet I don't remember any recent controversy about them.

So any means is justified, as long as you start from the bottom?

The whole thing just reeks of hypocrisy to me.

respect

Far as I am concerned a route is a route is a route

I don't understand the history, but I just can't wrap my head around the fact that a semi-spicy runout slab climb that was rap-bolted is somehow less ethical than a completely safe bolt ladder that was put in ground up.

And thus you are the very type of climber many locals don't want opening new routes there.

And there in lies the locals real problem....in the end they really don't have say as to who opens what and in what style. Those rules are made by someone else who's interests don't have all that much to do with climbing.

Anyone could walk up to the dome tomorrow and put up a new route. Anyone.....no matter who doesn't like it.


Truck

In such an environment it is immensely important for us to self-regulate. Absent the White Hats the only way to get that done is through respect.

Old schoolers have demonstrated respect for new methods and their associated results. And in many places the reverse has been shown too.

In the places I frequent the styles eist peacefully side by side.

This happens not from disdain, but from respect - for the styles, for the climbers, for the routes, for each other.

I know this.... if the coming generations don't show respect for those who preceeded them, those same generations will not be respected by their followers either.

Down that path lies regulation, permits and a lack of access.

DMT